Power conditioners anyone

[vitavoxdude]

Hello fellow addicts.
I notice over on SNA that a write up for an upsonic power conditioner with follow up is included.  Having been deeply involved in the manufacture of a power filter(?) the 'Bravura' in the past the guy actually honestly wrote of his findings which largley echo my thoughts. When and thats a big when the  ac MAINS IS CLEAN AND STABLE ( fairly rear and usually on a weekend when all the welders are in bed) then the addition of a power regulator / conditioner is maginal and some times with powerfull amps squashes peaks.  He used a 5KVA device which is plenty for all but Krells etc.  One point I disagree with him is plugging in the whole system to the one device - here he could not hear any improvements which is no suprise to me.  My experiance flys in the face of this with each piece of equiment being fed off its own device for isolation improves matters substantialy ( earthing needs addressing ).  He noted comments regarding CD players putting dirty signals back into the mains but did not go further.

Most hifi shows held in hotels suffer as a result of all those audio system drawing power and injecting their own dirty signals back into the ring mains.

I guess that having individual supplies for each bit of kit puts it out of reach of many.  Balanced isolation transformers in conjunction with some choke and cap filtering can give a quieter background (inky blacks in AV terms which is silence between notes for audio) and redcue HF hash.  I would recommend a visit to TNT to check out thier 'Dorchester doorman' as this goes a long way at fairly minimal cost.  Ferroresonant transformers also can have a beneficial effect through its windings and construction being used to reduce hash, has anyone tried these in their systems?

I would be interested in your feedback here to see if its a good idea to produce a couple for club consumption.

[kajak12]

i have a black box and a Thoroughbred Sequenced Power Interface
they both work on my system very well 

[vitavoxdude]

Hi Mario 
A 'Thoroughbred Sequenced Power Interface' is that the black box behind your system? Sequencing usual refers to the power up of equipment.  Was it the power co that produced the inductive filtration unit?  I saw a couple advertised on ebay, unfortunately I missed them as I would have liked to have seen their take on filtration.
I have used power regeneration units in my work but these generally are too expensive for audio folk and run pretty hot being a continuous supply device. 

I recently purchased a rack mounted power filter device aimed at Pro PA and muso's, on opening the box I had a real good laugh, what I had really bought was two downward pointing dimmable lights for the rack, the filers were a joke, the mains voltage indicator and current draw meter  provide amusement value only, and this from a 'specialist pro supplier'  I could have achieved the same filtration for around 20 dollars, disappointed - yup, should I have known better  -yup, did the 'marketing boy's get one over on me - sadly yes they did, damn, at least it looks flash in the rack

Anyone else use power filters or special home made distribution units for their mains feeds?  The distribution units for computer servers are usually a cut well above the normal chocolate boxes which pass as distribution for mains, plastic fantastics with loose ill-fitting sockets, nasty mains indicators and less than optimal mains cables. Some of these don’t even have the earth connection – be warned and as for those ‘one socket fits all’, well they don’t and introduce noise to your system.  At least with the server  distro's you get a metal enclosure with properly fitting sockets which grip the plugs really well and usually have a re settable circuit breaker fitted as standard.  A quick swap of the mains feed cable for something more suitable and hey presto an instant upgrade for beer money.

Rgds
V

[treblid]

Most hifi shows held in hotels suffer as a result of all those audio system drawing power and injecting their own dirty signals back into the ring mains.

Explains why I wasn't really impressed with any of the setups at the Singapore hifi show recently (my first and prob only hifi show I will go ever)...

Anyone else use power filters or special home made distribution units for their mains feeds? 

Me use a PSAudio .. I can't really tell if it's an improvement or not, just that this (and Belkin PF-40 before) removed pops when the fridge outside kicks in.

Am thinking of adding a dedicated line, or geting a power regenerator but dont' think it's worth it for my equipment....

As for computer power distribution.. The power board my company uses have very thick cables, almost half inch think if not more, terminated with a 3 pin socket that's the size of a small child's fist (no idea what that connector is called). I wonder if that's 3 phase?

Computer power can be very serious, I think even more so for audio equipment... :p

[kajak12]

Hi Mario 
A 'Thoroughbred Sequenced Power Interface' is that the black box behind your system? Sequencing usual refers to the power up of equipment.  Was it the power co that produced the inductive filtration unit?  I saw a couple advertised on ebay, unfortunately I missed them as I would have liked to have seen their take on filtration.
I have used power regeneration units in my work but these generally are too expensive for audio folk and run pretty hot being a continuous supply device. 

I recently purchased a rack mounted power filter device aimed at Pro PA and muso's, on opening the box I had a real good laugh, what I had really bought was two downward pointing dimmable lights for the rack, the filers were a joke, the mains voltage indicator and current draw meter  provide amusement value only, and this from a 'specialist pro supplier'  I could have achieved the same filtration for around 20 dollars, disappointed - yup, should I have known better  -yup, did the 'marketing boy's get one over on me - sadly yes they did, damn, at least it looks flash in the rack

Anyone else use power filters or special home made distribution units for their mains feeds?  The distribution units for computer servers are usually a cut well above the normal chocolate boxes which pass as distribution for mains, plastic fantastics with loose ill-fitting sockets, nasty mains indicators and less than optimal mains cables. Some of these don’t even have the earth connection – be warned and as for those ‘one socket fits all’, well they don’t and introduce noise to your system.  At least with the server  distro's you get a metal enclosure with properly fitting sockets which grip the plugs really well and usually have a re settable circuit breaker fitted as standard.  A quick swap of the mains feed cable for something more suitable and hey presto an instant upgrade for beer money.

Rgds
V

black box is of ebay
thorough bred is from http://www.audiomarketplace.com.au/component/page,shop.product_details/category_id,89/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,206/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,49/

[audiophool]

Ah So - Black Box
from Iwan yes ?
did you ever look inside this one ?
Just curious, I haven't looked in mine.

[kajak12]

Ah So - Black Box
from Iwan yes ?
did you ever look inside this one ?
Just curious, I haven't looked in mine.

yes i have and got photos of it the problem is my new conditioner works better on my system

[treblid]

Mario, did you pull a new power connection from the meter box to your room, or are you just using your existing power outlets + a conditioner?

[kajak12]

Mario, did you pull a new power connection from the meter box to your room, or are you just using your existing power outlets + a conditioner?

i have a dedicated power supply for my system so i am using existing power outlets for comparison

[hedalfa]

Vitavox

That sounds a total rip off, its one reason I have held back on filtration. I had wondered if power filters used for hospitals may have merit, some monitoring equipment may get effected by dirty power.  There are some specialist firms when I looked into this years ago, but price aren’t low, but they may actually work unlike hi fi products that look good but ‘are all show and no go’.

[stevenvalve]

Vitavox

That sounds a total rip off, its one reason I have held back on filtration. I had wondered if power filters used for hospitals may have merit, some monitoring equipment may get effected by dirty power.  There are some specialist firms when I looked into this years ago, but price aren’t low, but they may actually work unlike hi fi products that look good but ‘are all show and go’.

I have tried a 3 or 4 power conditioner and in almost all cases they do clean up the noise to a varying degree, but at the same time remove some of the body and weight, these conditioners often sound sterile, Why" some will say this is because they remove the grunge and noise, and that is what you hear as body and weight. In a system like mine that is tuned to the n'th degree they have no place. How many times have we removed these supposed colouration's from our systems and ended up with something that ends up sounding like.  HIFI.

[Erik van Voorst]

I have used filters over the years like you would not believe....Passive...active...parallel....series....you name it.

I even ended up with 5kVa per component active transformer (so spikes AND brownouts) pure OFC ...moneywise nearly unobtainable.... ...so what do you mean no dynamics...

Two years ago I accidently connected my transport straight...oh man....I ditched the filter without blinking...and so followed 5 of them....


For me no filters unless in the digital domain implemented wisely...but stay away in the analog part...no matter how expensive or what they promise....to my ears they rob you from music....

[Erik van Voorst]

F@ck the electricity bill...all very active 24/7.........do not let them fool you....they do a lot....but once all your components are upgraded to the max ditch the lot of them...

What does help nearly always is dedicated powerlines each their own group and pick a dedicated clean phase...

I use Oyaide cable and connectors for all the components (biggest bang for the buck) and Oyaide cable starting at the beginning...... so where it enters my house...

Tne spectecular power conditioners are all gone...........I have never been so honest  

[vitavoxdude]

  You will need to have a very good system indeed not to be able to take advantage of the benefits of an isolated balanced mains feed.  Recording studios around the globe use them for a good reason.  Forget the el cheapo Torrodial transformers in a box, they only get you so far, the older plate and frame transformers are the ones to go for.  If your kit already has a superb power supply with multiple chokes and over rated power transformers then your mileage will vary as to their success in bringing you closer to the music, but be aware that in order to not squash dynamics and full body harmonics you are going to need a power factor of around five to one more than the current draw of the attached equipment.  So for my Krell that would require a 25KVA transformer which is a fork lift truck size so that's never going to happen.  5Kva is a good starting point for power amps where current draw is reasonably low.  Ensure they are not spoilt by silly fuses which act as thermal regulators (re settable circuit breakers are the only way to go) and make sure your distribution mains panel has high inrush RCCD's that will not trip each time the units are turned on.

More advanced units use ferro resonance to regulate the voltage and have high attenuation in the HF which all helps to remove the constant barrage of noise on the mains.  You can also achieve soo much more by simply adding a dedicated 30amp ring main with decent cable and having a separate earth for your audio but that's for the die hards only.
V.

[hedalfa]

You will need to have a very good system indeed not to be able to take advantage of the benefits of an isolated balanced mains feed.  Recording studios around the globe use them for a good reason.  Forget the el cheapo Torrodial transformers in a box, they only get you so far, the older plate and frame transformers are the ones to go for.  If your kit already has a superb power supply with multiple chokes and over rated power transformers then your mileage will vary as to their success in bringing you closer to the music, but be aware that in order to not squash dynamics and full body harmonics you are going to need a power factor of around five to one more than the current draw of the attached equipment.  So for my Krell that would require a 25KVA transformer which is a fork lift truck size so that's never going to happen.  5Kva is a good starting point for power amps where current draw is reasonably low.  Ensure they are not spoilt by silly fuses which act as thermal regulators (re settable circuit breakers are the only way to go) and make sure your distribution mains panel has high inrush RCCD's that will not trip each time the units are turned on.

More advanced units use ferro resonance to regulate the voltage and have high attenuation in the HF which all helps to remove the constant barrage of noise on the mains.  You can also achieve soo much more by simply adding a dedicated 30amp ring main with decent cable and having a separate earth for your audio but that's for the die hards only.
V.

What sort of money does something on this scale cost?  I would consider it for when I move to my house at the coast and electrican dont charge the rates they do here. Id believe you. I wonder what scientific labs and hospitals use

[vitavoxdude]

Hospitals have a different requirement for leakage to earth.  Normal households are around 60mA whereas medical is closer to 15mA.  Isolation transformers are used but I don't think they use balanced transformers.  This question is probably better answered by some one like ZenElectro as its his field.

The most benefit using such devices appears with low consumption units such as CD front ends where it can remove a fair bit of 'glare and whiteness'.  Power amps can be seriously throttled back if you do not have a really big > 5KVa transformer as many manufactures run the cores too hard with core temperatures running at 'gosh I cannot hold my hand on it' to save money by skimping on the size of the core.  Forget torrodials, they are cheap yes but you get what you pay for.

Airlink transformer from the UK sell Torrodial units cheap, locally made will be around 50% dearer but you really need a good plate and frame with varnish impregnation for each of your units, this keeps them from talking to each other via the mains.  Every power supply injects back into the mains a dirty signal, 100Hz hash from the rectifier diodes etc.  Better to have 3 x 500 Va balanced iso transformers powering the front end ( pre, transport, dac) than one larger unit IMV.  There are suppliers advertising on Ebay.  I would suggest getting the dedicated ring main first off with reasonable wiring, this makes a huge difference, ask Dave Willow. Once this is done then getting the balanced power will make more of a difference if you have sufficient spare on the Kva side IMV
V

[Davey Willo]

Yes, following V's advice I had a dedicated 30amp ring main installed and for me it definitely made a positive difference, more so in the 'consistency' of quality and noise floor instead of the lows and highs driven by what's happening with household components each evening as much as anything else.

If I were to do it again I would push the boat out and go for fully shielded cable, whether that would make an more difference I don't know but I would do it anyway.

Oi Brooksy, it's 'Willo' with no last 'W'... Willow was a strange little midget.... Oh wait! 

[zenelectro]

Vitavox

That sounds a total rip off, its one reason I have held back on filtration. I had wondered if power filters used for hospitals may have merit, some monitoring equipment may get effected by dirty power.  There are some specialist firms when I looked into this years ago, but price aren’t low, but they may actually work unlike hi fi products that look good but ‘are all show and go’.

I have tried a 3 or 4 power conditioner and in almost all cases they do clean up the noise to a varying degree, but at the same time remove some of the body and weight, these conditioners often sound sterile, Why" some will say this is because they remove the grunge and noise, and that is what you hear as body and weight. In a system like mine that is tuned to the n'th degree they have no place. How many times have we removed these supposed colouration's from our systems and ended up with something that ends up sounding like.  HIFI.

Steven, you are right on WRT conditioners.

I was always perplexed why these things often make the sound worse WRT 'musicality' and 'tone'. So I simulated as best I could this whole
transformer / filter circuit recently and found some interesting answers that -may- be the cause. The simulations showed that all of the RF filtering and various inductances
of the filters and transformer (leakage) appear to cause VHF resonance spikes (High 'Q') even though there is RF filtering going on. This would also
be very load dependent, ie; what you plug into it.

Further to this if you plug any decent size amp with large filter caps in to one, every time the diodes conduct and slam into the load of the filter caps, this will
induce some of these HF resonances. This definitely showed up on the sims.

One solution appears to be damping and I recently built up another balanced / filtered supply with special resistive damping networks to try and overcome
this resonance problem. It seems to work to a degree but there is still a marked sonic effect of cleaning everything up which washes out the midrange a bit.

Even on my guitar amp it changes the tone significantly. I have to do more testing on hi fi stuff to see if the tonal change is too pronounced.
I meant to bring this new 700VA balanced supply up to Steves to see what it does on his system but haven't got around to it yet.

But I still tend to agree with the original view that if you have really good power supplies in your gear these are not needed.

Z

[zenelectro]

Hospitals have a different requirement for leakage to earth.  Normal households are around 60mA whereas medical is closer to 15mA.  Isolation transformers are used but I don't think they use balanced transformers.  This question is probably better answered by some one like ZenElectro as its his field.

The most benefit using such devices appears with low consumption units such as CD front ends where it can remove a fair bit of 'glare and whiteness'.  Power amps can be seriously throttled back if you do not have a really big > 5KVa transformer as many manufactures run the cores too hard with core temperatures running at 'gosh I cannot hold my hand on it' to save money by skimping on the size of the core.  Forget torrodials, they are cheap yes but you get what you pay for.

Airlink transformer from the UK sell Torrodial units cheap, locally made will be around 50% dearer but you really need a good plate and frame with varnish impregnation for each of your units, this keeps them from talking to each other via the mains.  Every power supply injects back into the mains a dirty signal, 100Hz hash from the rectifier diodes etc.  Better to have 3 x 500 Va balanced iso transformers powering the front end ( pre, transport, dac) than one larger unit IMV.  There are suppliers advertising on Ebay.  I would suggest getting the dedicated ring main first off with reasonable wiring, this makes a huge difference, ask Dave Willow. Once this is done then getting the balanced power will make more of a difference if you have sufficient spare on the Kva side IMV
V

We seem to have different experiences.

Steven(valve) and myself tried many of these and the only one that sounded half decent was based on a balanced 2.5kVA toroidal transformer and moderate RF filtering.
I built many after this with various EI cores, normal silicon, grain oriented steel, running core at various levels  etc etc and more aggressive filtering and they all sounded worse.
Lots of clean detail but tone was washed out severely.

My advice after lots of direct experience is proceed with caution when using them.

Z
 

[zenelectro]

As a separate note, Vita mentioned Ferro resonant  transformers (CVT / constant voltage transformer).

I have not tried these yet but have spoken to someone that had very positive experience with them.
This is one thing I would like to try as they are fundamentally different from all other transformers / supplies in that
they virtually 'regenerate' the OP waveform through a tuned circuit. As such they need no RF filtering as virtually
nothing will make it through the transformer.

These are potentially the best solution but I don't have the time or money ATM to try one.
Downsides are: They are also extremely magnetically noisy so need to be away from your gear, they are
physically very large for a given VA, they can also be mechanically noisy.

Worth a try for someone.

Z