Author Topic: Rubidium Clocks (Read 50768 times)

Erik van Voorst · « **on:** May 12, 2011, 04:43:05 PM »

I do not know if this is a thread placed in the right subjects ..so please feel free to move if otherwise...

Here goes:

Is there anyone out there who experimented with a Rubidium or atom clock in his dac or transport...
I find very little EXPERIENCE on the internet....

I know they are for sale voor say 200 dollars but that does not make a DCS....

Has anybody ever looked into a DCS or simular atom clock based material....are we talking power supply only as an extra on those kind of machines to get to the 13.000 dollar asking price...in reviews the reviewer uses the word "create" every time so I wonder what else the commercial designers have to "create" (besides PSU)...

Any ideas are welcome, I am playing with that clock-idea a while....I know have a few Trichord 4 with NC PSU which really delivered....but is there a next "leap".....

tuyen · « **Reply #1 on:** May 12, 2011, 05:10:34 PM »

Hi Erik,

Have heard a EMT 981 cd player (TDA1541 S1 chip standard) which was modified to run an external rubidium clock with very beefy looking power supply. This was when I visited the Feastrex factory in Japan. I'll see if I can dig up some photos of the units when I am home.

Their highly tuned system sounded very amazing, to say the least.

But unfortunately do not have any direct A-B comparison experiences.. sorry!

treblid · « **Reply #2 on:** May 12, 2011, 05:57:09 PM »

Have you tried something like the Apogee Big Ben?

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/big-ben-features.php

I wonder how it'd do, if one has a DAC that is synced to that also..

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #3 on:** May 12, 2011, 07:52:43 PM »

Hi

At the moment I am using a Genesis Digital Lens between my transport and dac with an AT&T (Translight) connection which I (and my audio-buddy Anton) modified last week.
I will try to dig up foto's of that.

We changed the standard on board trafo's of the Genesis (2x8V each) and elco's (10 years old) and rectification and RCA.
I made a extern PSU (2 Big Trafo's, Blackgates FK, Schottky, WBT Nextgen Silver, Mundorf silver/gold wiring..the whole show) the trannies were on the same print as the clock.!!!

The overall before/after effect was HUGE....so you could say I tasted blood....also inspired by the crazy reviews of Rubidium clocks on commercial machines....

BTW
I have no experience with the Big Ben but I came to know that it was Big Bang...for the Buck

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #4 on:** May 12, 2011, 08:40:21 PM »

That factory visit must have been an experience !!!
BTW I used also leather as a driver surrounding ...the same idea as feastrex.

I know very far from my own topic.

....but still what it is all about FUN !! ...forgive me

tuyen · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:11:31 AM »

All good Erik

Bugger me I can't find the photo of the insides of their modded EMT 981 player. I must of deleted it cos it was blurry or something! DOH! I took heaps of other photos while I was there though. Here are some of the outsides of the cd player. They opened up the EMT player to demonstrate the difference in sound when they add a bit of dampening material on top of the TDA1541 chip. I remember I could hear the difference but now I forgot what it was! All I can say is they love their little tweaks. Their system is so highly tuned it's crazy. From just a pair of 5" full range field coil drivers, the huge 3d imaging and presentation is quite impressive to say the least

Overview of some of their front end 'stuff'

EMT 981 cd player using TDA1541S1 (or was it S2.. forgot!) modified to run with a external rubidium clock. Seemed to work well!

Rubidium clock located in an external enclosure along custom power supply to power the module.

Feastrex guys are really into their power supplies. Especially the transformers, which they wind and construct by themselves.

The designer of the special drivers Hal Teramoto(left) is a real character

Anyways, I digress.. sorry to go so off topic!

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:28:24 AM »

Quote from: tuyen on May 14, 2011, 02:11:31 AM

They opened up the EMT player to demonstrate the difference in sound when they add a bit of dampening material on top of the TDA1541 chip. I remember I could hear the difference but now I forgot what it was!

Ahum....here a picture of my modded dac print...can you spot them...

Anyway the Tent clock on that print (not visible since the pic was taken half way)) is sometime soon in for a shock...be it a modded Trichord 4 or a Rubidium...it is inside my head and has to come out....

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:36:59 AM »

Here a finished print with the clock standing vertical attached to a block of ebony wood.

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:43:16 AM »

Do you have by any chance an e-mail adres and/or a name ....maybe I can mail the feastrex guys and maybe are they willing to supply info on the Rubidium questions I have....

vBTW did you notice that despite the High-End Rack they place the player and components involved on that cheap laminated wood.....just because it sounds better that way.
Salabert (PHY) is another master with this particular type of wood..... for some "wood-voodoo"

zenelectro · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2011, 09:07:17 AM »

Quote from: Erik van Voorst on May 14, 2011, 03:43:16 AM

Do you have by any chance an e-mail adres and/or a name ....maybe I can mail the feastrex guys and maybe are they willing to supply info on the Rubidium questions I have....

vBTW did you notice that despite the High-End Rack they place the player and components involved on that cheap laminated wood.....just because it sounds better that way.
Salabert (PHY) is another master with this particular type of wood..... for some "wood-voodoo"

You are wasting money throwing at Rubidium - it is not the ultimate clock. Rubidium clock's main characteristic is very good long term
stability, ie; super low drift over years and years, hence their use as a time reference. This has no advantage for audio.

For audio you want low phase noise (jitter) but then the question becomes where abouts in the spectrum is low phase noise
important? HF, LF, mid F?

This is a very deep subject and results I have observed myself and others such as Stevenvalve and Kajak point to some very
interesting findings. Suffice to say just low phase noise at typically high frequencies as most after market clocks have is not the necessarily
the complete answer.

Stay tuned.

T

tuyen · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2011, 12:41:23 PM »

Quote from: Erik van Voorst on May 14, 2011, 03:43:16 AM

Do you have by any chance an e-mail adres and/or a name ....maybe I can mail the feastrex guys and maybe are they willing to supply info on the Rubidium questions I have....

vBTW did you notice that despite the High-End Rack they place the player and components involved on that cheap laminated wood.....just because it sounds better that way.
Salabert (PHY) is another master with this particular type of wood..... for some "wood-voodoo"

Hi Erik,

I have sent you a PM with Hal Teramoto's email. Hopefully they can shed more light on their experiences. Good luck!

You are right about the wood. The feastrex guys are really into their wood and sonic characteristics of all the various types. I found it quite amazing when you hear some of the history and reasoning behind what they do and use. People say the Japanese always take things to the extreme. My opinion is that it also holds true in the world of hifi tweaking too! Way too crazy or 'dedicated' for me..

Edit: I may be incorrect it saying that box in the above photo was the clock, it seems like it is just a powersupply from this photo??:

Hopefully Hal can correct me and help you

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2011, 05:09:49 PM »

Thanks, I found his e-mail myself aswell, so I mailed him

Keep you informed

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #12 on:** May 18, 2011, 05:05:58 AM »

This is insipring stuff as well...but it could be a sales trick.

.....so little is known about the results..(I mean these kind of implementations)

I wonder what is underneath the red carton...maybe loads of unobtainable engineering..hahahahaha

zenelectro · « **Reply #13 on:** May 18, 2011, 10:56:58 AM »

Quote from: Erik van Voorst on May 18, 2011, 05:05:58 AM

This is insipring stuff as well...but it could be a sales trick. .....so little is known about the results..(I mean these kind of implementations)

I wonder what is underneath the red carton...maybe loads of unobtainable engineering..hahahahaha

These are 10MHz Rubidium standards with frequency adjusted or 'pulled' to 11.2896MHz.

At their native 10MHz frequency, the phase noise specified is pretty good. By pulling the frequency to 11.2896 there would
be some degradation in phase noise but I don't know how much.

They spec phase noise of -100dB at 10Hz from carrier at 10MHz and -125dB at 100Hz from carrier. This would be better than most
aftermarket clocks.

I have currently ovenised oscillator (OCXO) that is fixed 11.2896MHz and specs -120dB at 10Hz from carrier which is 20dB better (10x) than
these Rubidium oscillators at their native 10MHz frequency.

These will be available in a few months after we do some testing (myself, Kajak and S.V.)

T

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2011, 02:20:49 AM »

Hi,

Thanks for all the info but it may sound arrogant and dumb but I am not interested in the specs of the Rubidium Clock at all.

I somehow come to the conclusion (for myself that is) that it is "maybe" totally un-important that the deviation is less or the interpretation of the other specs.

I think there must be something with the Rubidium that "we" still overlook but as it turns out to be important to the sound....hence the use of it with recording engineers and the pricey (ahum) Esoteric machines etc....

Did you listen to a Rubidium Clock in the chain and out of the chain...(not meant offensive) .....me neither so I do not want to say positive or negative things about it yet.....

I guess it is one of those things you just have to risk...unfortunately I did not come across a DIY -er who picked up the glove yet...in the world !!!! (besides Feastrex that is).

zenelectro · « **Reply #15 on:** May 19, 2011, 03:11:04 AM »

Quote from: Erik van Voorst on May 19, 2011, 02:20:49 AM

Hi,

Thanks for all the info but it may sound arrogant and dumb but I am not interested in the specs of the Rubidium Clock at all.

I somehow come to the conclusion (for myself that is) that it is "maybe" totally un-important that the deviation is less or the interpretation of the other specs.

I think there must be something with the Rubidium that "we" still overlook but as it turns out to be important to the sound....hence the use of it with recording engineers and the pricey (ahum) Esoteric machines etc....

Did you listen to a Rubidium Clock in the chain and out of the chain...(not meant offensive) .....me neither so I do not want to say positive or negative things about it yet.....

I guess it is one of those things you just have to risk...unfortunately I did not come across a DIY -er who picked up the glove yet...in the world !!!! (besides Feastrex that is).

Here's some info on Rubidium clocks:

http://www.grimmaudio.com/whitepapers/Picoseconds%20or%20ppm.pdf

There have been comparisons of ultra low jitter clocks such as Grimms CC1 compared to Rubidium and the latter didn't always win.

Antelope Audio make the most popular Rubidium clocks however they are doing a few other 'tricks' that they don't talk about much which are
much more relevant to sound quality as opposed to just getting low phase noise.

I have tried quite a few different clocks over the years and liaised with many people on their own experiences and have come to
some interesting conclusions.

So buy on and try it Erik! I'm sure it will sound great.

cheers

T

Erik van Voorst · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2011, 04:27:23 AM »

Thanks for all the hands on info.

...although I am lost why you end with such a strange sentence...

tuyen · « **Reply #17 on:** June 12, 2011, 07:34:36 AM »

heard a system yesterday which was running a rubidium based clock (illusion rubiclock from japan). sound was pretty good. much improved than the previous times i've visited there(war audio).

http://www.tachyon.co.jp/~sichoya/RubiKit/illusionRubiClock.pdf

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fartificepower.blog26.fc2.com%2Fcategory18-1.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tachyon.co.jp%2F~sichoya%2FRubiKit%2FRubiKit.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

treblid · « **Reply #18 on:** June 12, 2011, 12:04:20 PM »

Too afraid to ask.... But can't resist :p.. How much is that?

Jehuty · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2011, 03:40:22 PM »

+1 Looks very classy which could only mean...pricey