Author Topic: New John Kenny SABER DAC (Read 33312 times)

bhobba · « **on:** June 10, 2011, 12:04:02 PM »

Hi Guys

Some people mentioned in another thread they would like to try a SABER based DAC. I posted I have heard a few of them and know someone who has heard even more and really they are variations on a theme - great detail but a slightly cold top end - a bit analytic and uninvolving. Because of that I decided on a Killer rather than trying another SABER DAC.

But John Kenny has now released his DAC based on his Modified Hi Face:
https://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/hiface-dac-feedback

It's cost is about $650.00 Australian which is low enough for me to take the plunge and get one, and I have contacted John to that end. This DAC I will definitely be only too happy to send to you Killer DAC guys in Sydney and over in Perth. It will not be up to the Killer standard but IMHO it will be the SABER based DAC to beat - especially at the price. John Darko will be getting it for review as well.

Thanks
Bill

tuyen · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2011, 12:38:34 PM »

Cool Bill! Always wanted to try a Sabre32 based dac. USB/Hi-Res support some more. My hi-res music library is growing everyday.. glad to pay postage costs to and back from Perth. Please keep us informed

bhobba · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2011, 01:05:11 PM »

Hi Tuyen and All

Just purchased it off John. Was going to wait until next week to get in on next month's credit card and save a bit of interest but on that amount it only worked out to $3.00 so what the hell - ordered it now. John will undoubtedly contact me regarding delivery time etc - will keep you guys updated.

Like I said it won't be up to Killer DAC standard but I think it probably will be the best SABER implementation around.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2011, 01:23:29 PM »

Hi Guys

Just got a note from john Kenny. He got the moolah and will be shipping next week. First guys out our way will check it out. Then onto John Darko in Sydney for review and for you Killer DAC guys in Sydney to check out - then over to Perth.

Thanks
Bill

tuyen · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2011, 06:58:33 PM »

Great stuff Bill.

Can't wait to have a listen to it. Wanting to compare the ESS9022 chip in the jkeny to the WM7401 dac I have coming which has a direct voltage output stage.. no I/V resistors, opamps, tubes in the output stage.. only just a cap. Same type as the ESS9022/9023 I believe? Will be interesting what type of presentation it gives..

Tuyen

zenelectro · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2011, 03:14:16 PM »

Quote from: tuyen on July 18, 2011, 06:58:33 PM

Great stuff Bill.

Can't wait to have a listen to it. Wanting to compare the ESS9022 chip in the jkeny to the WM7401 dac I have coming which has a direct voltage output stage.. no I/V resistors, opamps, tubes in the output stage.. only just a cap. Same type as the ESS9022/9023 I believe? Will be interesting what type of presentation it gives..

Tuyen

ESS9022 and WM7401 do have opamps but they are inside the dac chip.

Z

bhobba · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2011, 07:16:50 PM »

Hi Guys

I got the DAC and have now popped it into my system - playing Celine Dion live through it right now. But when I picked it up from Mikes where I had it shipped to he wasn't there, however some of his staff were, and we had a chance to compare it to the Tranquility, Tranquility SE, and my Level 2 PDX with the JK Hiface input. This is the best Saber implementation I have heard - it blows away my WFS to my ears. The others there have heard the WFS and also agree - in fact none of them like the WFS but didn't mind this DAC. No upper mid-range/lower treble glare or sibilance issues. The SABER detail is there - in fact no other DAC is better at that - and also seems to also have the Saber trademark propulsive bass. However the sound is rather dry - not necessarily cold - dry is the word I would use. Some people describe the WFS's treble as being squeaky clean - too clean - like out of a freezer - I don't agree with that but that's what they say. This DAC to my ears is not like that - it is clean all right - but still it's not what I would call sweet - dry is the best word I can think of. If your tastes are for a more musical sweeter sounding DAC then other DAC's may suit you better. However there is no free lunch and in this price bracket you suffer in other areas such as bass control and detail retrieval. This dry quality is similar to the sound I heard in ME amps many years ago. The Tranquility was sweeter sounding (not as dry) but the bass was not as good and detail retrieval just a smidgen less. In fact this is the Tranquility's signature and why its such a tough nut to crack - its a NOS DAC with a NOS DAC's sweetness but detail retrieval of a non nos DAC - in fact close to Saber DAC's. Overall I would give it a tie - which is a very good showing since the Tranquility at about $1k and in my experience the leader in DAC's up to $1K (its on special at the moment for that price). This is the first DAC that I would judge its equal in that price bracket (just different) and the fact it is cheaper is a very fine achievement. I will also lay on the table my musical preferences - I prefer the sweeter presentation of the Tranquility since the music I mostly listen to such as Diana Krall doesn't have much bass for that aspect to shine. The Tranquility SE and PDX were clearly better - much more fluid, liquid, sweeter and well more musical. The SE is nearly 3 times the price and the PDX 7 times the price so that is what you would expect. I and some others thought this would be a game changer in its price bracket - I am willing to say that.

My new ordering of the upper echelon DAC's I have heard are JK Saber DAC, Tranquility, Tranquility SE, PDX, Killer. The fact it makes that elite company for that price is a fine achievement. I also want to add while these are the top echelon DAC's I have heard please be clear - they are not scary close - the JK Saber compared to the PDX or Killer is a joke - no comparison really. When we switched on the PDX after hearing the JK you simply would not want to go back. The reason I mention it is some reviews like the 6 Moons review of the Burson make claims like it was scary close to the best out there at any price - bollocks. However I have my own personal line above which I call DAC's upper ecelon - hardly any DAC's I know cross it and these are the DAC I have heard that do. For example the Rega DAC is a nice sounding DAC but it does not make the grade to my ears and many other DAC's do not as well.

Bottom line here is if you can afford the cost of a Tranquility SE (about 1.8k on special), the PDX (about 2.4K-4K) or Killer (about 2.5-6K if I recall correctly - but you guys that have got the killer can correct me) then get those - you will reap the benefits. But if that is a bit too much dosh then avail yourself of John Kenny's money back guarantee and the offer of a free trial of the Tranquility and decide which suits your tastes better. Also take them down to your local Hi Fi store and see if they have anything that comes close for the price - my bet is they won't - but to be sure check it out for yourself.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2011, 08:40:41 PM »

Just for the heck of it it tried connecting it directly to my Patek amp and used the volume control in Pure Music or Itunes. Holey crap - everything improved - detail, sound-stage, life - everything. Once you hear this no going back - direct connection is the way to go. Anyway decided the comparison with the other DAC's needed to be done again so contacted Mike who had arrived back from Sydney and headed on over for another comparison.

A customer also turned up who was also an experienced audiophile and had not heard any of these DAC's except the PDX before and we sat down to listen. First up we all agreed this was a very good SABER implementation - IMHO it is the best SABER I have heard but the others did not have recent experience with the Saber so were not willing to make that call. I had been listening to the WFS for a number of days previously so I knew what it sounded like very well. The JK Saber sounded very good indeed. The only thing we noticed was a slight graininess and the dryness to the sound. No glare or sibilance that the WFS has a bit of trouble with - this was easily above the WFS DAC2 that I know quite well. I know the base level Tranquility very well and thought this had beaten it but to be sure we put that on. No doubt about it - it bested the Tranquility when directly connected to the amps - more detail and realism - previously when going through a pre-amp I thought it a tie - but now it was better. The Tranquility can not be directly connected to amps because it is only 16 bit so we had to use a pre-amp. All agreed the JK was better. This is really a fine showing for the JK Saber - its the first DAC cheaper than the Tranquility I know that bested it - and it is significantly cheaper as well. Next up the Tranquility SE. Yep the SE was better - more fluid and life like with a beautiful beguiling mercury like mid-range - simply more of a joy to listen to. The JK is not a total giant killer - but it took a DAC three times the price to do it - and you also need a pre-amp. This SE was also the DAC that along with the Overdrive wowed them at the last RMAF - so that it took a DAC like that to best the JK Saber is again a fine showing. Next was a base level PDX - and yes it was better again - more life like and a real joy to listen to - but it was $2.7k - again much more expensive.

My new DAC ordering is Tranquility, JK Saber, Tranquility SE, PDX, Killer.

At $650-700 depending on the exchange rate this DAC is simply stupid good value for what you get. And direct connecting it to your amp will save money as well.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2011, 08:43:35 PM »

Hi Guys

A guy (Gary) has just left with the JK Saber and will do a write up comparing it to his Audio GD Ref 5 on SNA. But we did a bit of a listening session for a few hours between the JK, WFS DAC 2 and Tranquility SE. My PDX is having a bit of work done on it right now so could not be included.

Ok we confirmed the order of the DAC's as (worse to best) WFS, JK Saber and Tranquility SE. But Gary preferred the JK to the Tranquility even though he thought the Tranquility was the better DAC, as I did. The reason was, as everyone who has heard the Tranquility SE has noted, it has a very beguiling, liquid, fluid and mercury like mid-range that was recognized as better than the other DAC's, but was not to his taste - evidently the musical thing which the Tranquility definitely does is not his preference.

Gary was surprised with the WFS - glare in the upper mid-range lower treble with some sibilance issues and quite cold. This was because many people on the internet were saying how good it was - but really in this comparison it was not up to the other DAC's - in fact after a while it became un-listenable because you easily locked onto its deficiencies after listening to the DAC's. One thing in favor of the WFS was it had the most tunefull bass but I thought the JK bass was both lower and better. This however is the Tranquility's achilles heel - the bass is a little one note and flabby which on bass heavy material was noticeable.

The track that we locked onto that really showed the differences was Duffy Rockferry - the first track Rockferry - which has the reputation of being hard to reproduce properly due to her Welch wavering voice. Through the Tranquility - sublime. Its mid-range loves this type of stuff. We tried it both via Itunes and Audirvana - Audirvana was quite noticeably better and via that the Tranquility really was awesome. We tried the JK both direct and via the Truth. Through the Truth it was a bit thin and un-involving - direct to the amp was a lot better - greater detail, imaging - all sorts of stuff was better. But the mid-range was not as magical as the Tranquility - still very nice though - but a bit dry - but Gary did not mind that. At $700.00 with no pre amp required incredible value. Afraid the WFS was not in the hunt - it made Duffy's voice sound glarey, cold and sibilancy - most definitely not what you would want to listen to after the other DAC's.

On the basis of this comparison I must say don't even bother with the WFS - the JK is better and cheaper. The Tranquility SE is clearly better (and it should be at three times the price) but like Gary it may not be to your taste.

Thanks
Bill

kajak12 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2011, 03:10:51 PM »

I hope its a lot better then this bill http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/opus.aspx

bhobba · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2011, 05:15:01 PM »

Quote from: kajak12 on July 31, 2011, 03:10:51 PM

I hope its a lot better then this bill http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/opus.aspx

Hard to say until you hear it. My gut however tells me it will be - but not enough to be any kind of competition to a Killer.

Thanks
Bill

omodo · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2011, 08:15:03 PM »

Quote from: kajak12 on July 31, 2011, 03:10:51 PM

I hope its a lot better then this bill http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/opus.aspx

in all fairness to twistedpear the opus was designed in 2006, perhaps you should try and get hold of the latest buffaloIII+legatoIII combo?

kajak12 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2011, 10:01:03 PM »

Quote from: omodo on August 01, 2011, 08:15:03 PM

Quote from: kajak12 on July 31, 2011, 03:10:51 PM
I hope its a lot better then this bill http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/opus.aspx

in all fairness to twistedpear the opus was designed in 2006, perhaps you should try and get hold of the latest buffaloIII+legatoIII combo?

I don't know anybody that has got one do you?
Spent my money on the merry go round before not doing it again on the latest and greatest if it has opamps in it i dont bother listening to it.
Going by the industry they really don't move much forward now days everything is better and better then the last model but it still sounds like computer audio the general public swallows it like by the truck loads why?They dont know any better without getting another mortgage out to by something which makes music and not a card board cut out.

jkeny · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2011, 10:17:18 AM »

Kajak,
As I already told you, Tuyen already said this to me bout the JKI2S + OPUS "but running the OPUS (WM8741) in passive output mode (no active output stage) it does lack quite a bit of energy and body/weight in the sound." Maybe he can say a bit more about the configuration you both listened to & some details about it - it's all very vague.

As I also said, this is not the sound of the JKDAC as Bill & others will tell you so maybe a listen to the JKDAC would be in order?

jkeny · « **Reply #14 on:** August 02, 2011, 10:38:52 AM »

Kajak, why not ask to borrow Tuyen's JKI2S & use it to feed I2S into a killer DAC rather than playing around with sub-standard DAC/PS implementations? Then tell us what you think of computer audio? It would be a DAC that you know the sound of so it would allow you to fairly evaluate the source!

zenelectro · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2011, 11:17:34 AM »

Quote from: jkeny on August 02, 2011, 10:17:18 AM

Kajak,
As I already told you, Tuyen already said this to me bout the JKI2S + OPUS "but running the OPUS (WM8741) in passive output mode (no active output stage) it does lack quite a bit of energy and body/weight in the sound." Maybe he can say a bit more about the configuration you both listened to & some details about it - it's all very vague.

As I also said, this is not the sound of the JKDAC as Bill & others will tell you so maybe a listen to the JKDAC would be in order?

John, I can't seem to find any real information about your JK DAC.

Do you have any specs or information WRT the design?

Does it have bal / unbal outputs? Do you just pick off 1 phase of the DAC OP or have you got
an analog phase 'summing' stage to convert the DACs bal to unbal?

Are there any special clocks used?

Thanks,

Terry

kajak12 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2011, 11:34:45 AM »

Quote from: jkeny on August 02, 2011, 10:38:52 AM

Kajak, why not ask to borrow Tuyen's JKI2S & use it to feed I2S into a killer DAC rather than playing around with sub-standard DAC/PS implementations? Then tell us what you think of computer audio? It would be a DAC that you know the sound of so it would allow you to fairly evaluate the source!

Tuyen will come down soon with the jkhiface

kajak12 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 02, 2011, 12:01:13 PM »

Quote from: jkeny on August 02, 2011, 10:17:18 AM

As I also said, this is not the sound of the JKDAC as Bill & others will tell you so maybe a listen to the JKDAC would be in order?

Maybe it is compared to my dac jkenny has it ever crossed your mind that my dac has just got more body,texture and life then any of the dacs on the market.So when i compare other dacs to my killer dac they are all sub standard and lack life body and texture.Its not called a killer dac for no reason jkenny it makes music like no other dac that i know or anybody else on this forum that i am aware of,Its simply on a planet of its own when it come to making music.

Regarding reviews by other people i personaly dont care about it much at all why you may ask?Most peoples systems are just mid hifi they talk about depth when they have a fcuken tv smack in the middle of their speakers,now it doesnt take much to work out having a tv between your speakers fcuk up the depth of the sound stage.Sna is full of such systems some even have speakers hung on a wall and talk about a big sound stage with depth or use some avr amp and talk about resolution.Just for the record jkenny solid state amps dont have depth they have a flat wide sound stage no matter what solid state amp it is,Just ask hugh dean he knows this very well.

jkeny · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2011, 12:10:35 PM »

I will post all these details after it has done it's tour

Quote from: zenelectro on August 02, 2011, 11:17:34 AM

John, I can't seem to find any real information about your JK DAC.

Do you have any specs or information WRT the design?

Does it have bal / unbal outputs? Do you just pick off 1 phase of the DAC OP or have you got
an analog phase 'summing' stage to convert the DACs bal to unbal?

Are there any special clocks used?

Thanks,

Terry

jkeny · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2011, 12:15:10 PM »

It's meaningless to try to discuss this - I haven't heard your KD & you haven't heard my JKDAC so unless yoy just want to engage in a contest about who can piss the highest, it's meaningless!

Quote from: jkeny on August 02, 2011, 12:10:35 PM

I will post all these details after it has done it's tour

Quote from: zenelectro on August 02, 2011, 11:17:34 AM
Quote from: jkeny on August 02, 2011, 10:17:18 AM
Kajak,
As I already told you, Tuyen already said this to me bout the JKI2S + OPUS "but running the OPUS (WM8741) in passive output mode (no active output stage) it does lack quite a bit of energy and body/weight in the sound." Maybe he can say a bit more about the configuration you both listened to & some details about it - it's all very vague.

As I also said, this is not the sound of the JKDAC as Bill & others will tell you so maybe a listen to the JKDAC would be in order?

John, I can't seem to find any real information about your JK DAC.

Do you have any specs or information WRT the design?

Does it have bal / unbal outputs? Do you just pick off 1 phase of the DAC OP or have you got
an analog phase 'summing' stage to convert the DACs bal to unbal?

Are there any special clocks used?

Thanks,

Terry