The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Transports => Topic started by: ozmillsy on September 02, 2010, 05:57:38 PM
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the wave player great transport for no money.after kajak12 mods it was very good indeed and still serves mcb well.
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Yep, though it looks a little different these days
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How does it work exactly? Nevermind, I answered my own question.
http://www.coemaudio.com.au/Sources/DACs/277/ (http://www.coemaudio.com.au/Sources/DACs/277/)
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the first steps of modding just trying to understand what will oil filled caps do in the digital domain.they actually added weight and richness to the sound made it more like music and less digital.
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they actually added weight and richness to the sound made it more like music and less digital.
But it's just a transport isnt it, just 1's and 0's ?
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But it's just a transport isnt it, just 1's and 0's ?
The answer seems to lie somehow in the signatures of both you guys.. haha.. :P Will be good if somebody can actually explain this to me too.. :) Why changing caps can change the audio, when the caps are probably in the digital part of the circuit (in the context of this wave player and the Asus Essense STX sound card).
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they actually added weight and richness to the sound made it more like music and less digital.
But it's just a transport isnt it, just 1's and 0's ?
BIG 0'S AND BIG'S compared to little o's and 1's.the only logical explanation i have
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BIG 0'S AND BIG'S compared to little o's and 1's.the only logical explanation i have
haha, aaaah, no that's not logical. ::)
Between transports, and between mods of transports, there's got to be infinetly various levels of distortion in the signal, that is contributing to jitter (timing inconsistencies). The jitter is subtely (or not so subtely) affecting the dac stage.
Since there is zero de-jittering and no reclocking in the KillerDac, then it appears to be super sensitive to changes in quality of the incoming bitstream.
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BIG 0'S AND BIG'S compared to little o's and 1's.the only logical explanation i have
haha, aaaah, no that's not logical. ::)
Between transports, and between mods of transports, there's got to be infinetly various levels of distortion in the signal, that is contributing to jitter (timing inconsistencies). The jitter is subtely (or not so subtely) affecting the dac stage.
Since there is zero de-jittering and no reclocking in the KillerDac, then it appears to be super sensitive to changes in quality of the incoming bitstream.
caps dont change jitter.so why do they change the sound?their is so much more for us to learn.
i know that the power supply has a big effect on sound with transports
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caps dont change jitter.so why do they change the sound?their is so much more for us to learn.
i know that the power supply has a big effect on sound with transports
Well apparently they do affect jitter , as does the quality of the power supply, there literally can be no other explanation that I'm aware of.
The sum of all parts in the transport, adds up to quality of the digital (electrical) signal being passed out of the transport.
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caps dont change jitter.so why do they change the sound?their is so much more for us to learn.
i know that the power supply has a big effect on sound with transports
Well apparently they do affect jitter , as does the quality of the power supply, there literally can be no other explanation that I'm aware of.
The sum of all parts in the transport, adds up to quality of the digital (electrical) signal being passed out of the transport.
i need a crow to measure jitter in my clock and change caps to see what happens its the only way to know
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i need a crow to measure jitter in my clock and change caps to see what happens its the only way to know
While the clock is the significant variable, I would suggest that there are others. Quality of the SPDIF sender and receiver chips, if you are not using I2S.
But also, since the digital signal is an electrical signal, it can be affected by interference and other distortions. Those distortions may not impact the integrity of the ones and zeros, but they can impact how cleanly the signal is interpreted at the receiving end.
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i need a crow to measure jitter in my clock and change caps to see what happens its the only way to know
While the clock is the significant variable, I would suggest that there are others. Quality of the SPDIF sender and receiver chips, if you are not using I2S.
But also, since the digital signal is an electrical signal, it can be affected by interference and other distortions. Those distortions may not impact the integrity of the ones and zeros, but they can impact how cleanly the signal is interpreted at the receiving end.
correct oz its everything in the chain that plays a part in our whacky world. i have the 8412 reciver chip at home you can use it in the new killer instead of 8414 chip( i wonder what is the diffrence is)
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but they can impact how cleanly the signal is interpreted at the receiving end.
to expand on this thought, the jitter I am referring to is timing inconsistencies at the receiving end due to electrical distortion. The 1's and 0's maybe always in tact, but reading them may have it's own timing problems due to electrical issues in the chain.
I gotta 1, I gottaaaaaaa 1, I gottaa 0, I gottaaaaa 1, I gottaaa 0, I gotta 0. etc etc
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then again, maybe we're all just hearing things and kidding ourselves....... bwahahahahaha 8)
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Ethan Winers vid mentions jitter, worth a look and listen ;) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
i agree with somethings that he has to say but not all.
i have seen this a long time ago dritz
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but they can impact how cleanly the signal is interpreted at the receiving end.
to expand on this thought, the jitter I am referring to is timing inconsistencies at the receiving end due to electrical distortion. The 1's and 0's maybe always in tact, but reading them may have it's own timing problems due to electrical issues in the chain.
I gotta 1, I gottaaaaaaa 1, I gottaa 0, I gottaaaaa 1, I gottaaa 0, I gotta 0. etc etc
i like you explanation oz ;D
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http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=89666&st=40&start=40 post 41
looks like he is enjoying his wav player more modds to come
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I have a fond memories of Marios wavplayer. Honestly though, it was a bit of the pain in the ass to use and navigate. What relevance does this have? None, just a fun fact :)
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I have a fond memories of Marios wavplayer. Honestly though, it was a bit of the pain in the ass to use and navigate. What relevance does this have? None, just a fun fact :)
Hens, ease of use is definitely not the wavplayers strength. But, as you know, it is quite amazing what it delivers.
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Hi Tuyen,
I saw you post elsewhere (great and informative post by the way) about using the wave player with an I2S connection. I am interested in your thought on the improvement the I2S made with the wave player.
Converting my DAC, wave player and Duet to I2S are possible improvements that I will be looking to explore in due course.
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G'day Murray,
The QLS wav player already has little solder points for the 4 output signals needed by your dac. They are located near where the power connector is on the pcb.
I'll upload a photo tonight to show what I mean.
To be honest, I can't comment on the improvements (if there were any) as I only tried the connection for a few songs and didn't really sit down and concetrate with an A/B comparison. I can say (from memory) it didn't seem to sound any worse then when using the digital cable though :)
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Thanks Tuyen,
Have you modded yours, or was it more of a case of giving it a run and then reverting the the CD94.
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No probs mcb,
Nope, didn't mod mine. Only just tried powering it with car battery for clean DC input.
It did sound good for what it is, but after listening to Marios fully modded one and tuned to his ears with his modded CD94, I didn't find the WAV player to be any better then the cd94 so no point to me.. plus the hassle of converting all my cds (1000+) to wav makes me cry! :)
Photo of the I2S connection of of the QLS player. Easy peasy right! :)
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2zpv885.jpg)
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Thanks Tuyen.
I appreciate you posting the photo and your further comments.
I have a feeling it is not quite as easy to get the I2S into the Satch. Something for me to look into in due course.
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Hi Murray , AFAIK , it's just a case of attaching a cable to the I2S header near the dac chip and moving a couple of jumpers on the Satch
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Thanks Gordon,
Looking at I2S will have to wait until next year.
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I just received one of these and am reasonably happy with it so far. I'm having some problems with the player recognising some tracks and some folders.
The sound is clean, with more treble emphasis, but better treble quality than my modded CD player. In my system, that is a good thing as I'm running 8 inch Fostex in an Azura horn, so the treble isn't as strong as it was before the horn.
Switching to a 12V SLA (altronics 7.2mAh), there is an added smoothness that has it surpass my CD player fpr overall quality.
I want to go I2S at some stage, but am waiting for an I2S to EIAJ converter to be available from DIY Paradise.
I also want to look at cap upgrades. I notice that Solen and Wima caps seemed to be used extensively in Mario's (MCB's) player. I will likely enquire in more detail about which components were being replaced. My board is revision 4.1, which appears to be different, so that could be interesting.
Simon
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I just received one of these and am reasonably happy with it so far. I'm having some problems with the player recognising some tracks and some folders.
The sound is clean, with more treble emphasis, but better treble quality than my modded CD player. In my system, that is a good thing as I'm running 8 inch Fostex in an Azura horn, so the treble isn't as strong as it was before the horn.
Switching to a 12V SLA (altronics 7.2mAh), there is an added smoothness that has it surpass my CD player fpr overall quality.
I want to go I2S at some stage, but am waiting for an I2S to EIAJ converter to be available from DIY Paradise.
I also want to look at cap upgrades. I notice that Solen and Wima caps seemed to be used extensively in Mario's (MCB's) player. I will likely enquire in more detail about which components were being replaced. My board is revision 4.1, which appears to be different, so that could be interesting.
Simon
enjoy your journey simon i hope you can use a soldering iron to take the smd caps off
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I've been running I2S for a little while now and am very happy with the results. With extended listening in the early days pre-I2S, my brain was telling me that something wasn't quite right. Post-I2s, the gestalt is now more believable. This may be partly due to run in.
There are 2 further upgrades that I am considering on the cheap:
1) Insert a Trichord Clock 3 from my Marantz (requiring a frequency change to 11MHz)
2) Upgrade some resistors
Q's
1) I notice that the spec for the QLS clock is 2ppm, but the Trichord is 5ppm. Is it worth upgrading, or will it be a downgrade?
If this will be a step in the right direction, my initial intent is to steal the crystal from the QLS board and put it on the Trichord board. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the trigger on a replacement chip from Trichord.
2) Directed at Mario: I was going to buy some Takman resistors for my active crossover, but in that order can grab an extra ones. I note that you replaced a couple of resistors when you were playing around. I believe I have a later version of the QLS PCB, so can't plagiarise based on the photos. What components were the resistors sitting between?
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I've been running I2S for a little while now and am very happy with the results. With extended listening in the early days pre-I2S, my brain was telling me that something wasn't quite right. Post-I2s, the gestalt is now more believable. This may be partly due to run in.
There are 2 further upgrades that I am considering on the cheap:
1) Insert a Trichord Clock 3 from my Marantz (requiring a frequency change to 11MHz)
2) Upgrade some resistors
Q's
1) I notice that the spec for the QLS clock is 2ppm, but the Trichord is 5ppm. Is it worth upgrading, or will it be a downgrade?
If this will be a step in the right direction, my initial intent is to steal the crystal from the QLS board and put it on the Trichord board. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the trigger on a replacement chip from Trichord.
2) Directed at Mario: I was going to buy some Takman resistors for my active crossover, but in that order can grab an extra ones. I note that you replaced a couple of resistors when you were playing around. I believe I have a later version of the QLS PCB, so can't plagiarise based on the photos. What components were the resistors sitting between?
you can by the qls crystals of ebay dont worry too much about ppm as none supply any test certificate to back up ppm.
Your better of buying crystals of ebay then trichord due to costs trichord charge around $50.00.
Send me a pm with the model number of your wav player and i can send you a schematic via email,the i2s on the wav player use 33r resistors change them.
reagrding which resistors i must remember first i will get back to you on that one.
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I've been running I2S for a little while now and am very happy with the results. With extended listening in the early days pre-I2S, my brain was telling me that something wasn't quite right. Post-I2s, the gestalt is now more believable. This may be partly due to run in.
There are 2 further upgrades that I am considering on the cheap:
1) Insert a Trichord Clock 3 from my Marantz (requiring a frequency change to 11MHz)
2) Upgrade some resistors
Q's
1) I notice that the spec for the QLS clock is 2ppm, but the Trichord is 5ppm. Is it worth upgrading, or will it be a downgrade?
If this will be a step in the right direction, my initial intent is to steal the crystal from the QLS board and put it on the Trichord board. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the trigger on a replacement chip from Trichord.
2) Directed at Mario: I was going to buy some Takman resistors for my active crossover, but in that order can grab an extra ones. I note that you replaced a couple of resistors when you were playing around. I believe I have a later version of the QLS PCB, so can't plagiarise based on the photos. What components were the resistors sitting between?
you can by the qls crystals of ebay dont worry too much about ppm as none supply any test certificate to back up ppm.
Your better of buying crystals of ebay then trichord due to costs trichord charge around $50.00.
Send me a pm with the model number of your wav player and i can send you a schematic via email,the i2s on the wav player use 33r resistors change them.
reagrding which resistors i must remember first i will get back to you on that one.
Mario
Could you please send me the schem, I think I have misplaced mine.
thanx
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I've been running I2S for a little while now and am very happy with the results. With extended listening in the early days pre-I2S, my brain was telling me that something wasn't quite right. Post-I2s, the gestalt is now more believable. This may be partly due to run in.
There are 2 further upgrades that I am considering on the cheap:
1) Insert a Trichord Clock 3 from my Marantz (requiring a frequency change to 11MHz)
2) Upgrade some resistors
Q's
1) I notice that the spec for the QLS clock is 2ppm, but the Trichord is 5ppm. Is it worth upgrading, or will it be a downgrade?
If this will be a step in the right direction, my initial intent is to steal the crystal from the QLS board and put it on the Trichord board. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the trigger on a replacement chip from Trichord.
2) Directed at Mario: I was going to buy some Takman resistors for my active crossover, but in that order can grab an extra ones. I note that you replaced a couple of resistors when you were playing around. I believe I have a later version of the QLS PCB, so can't plagiarise based on the photos. What components were the resistors sitting between?
The Tricord clock should be better but it's an educated guess. x ppm does not relate to jitter really.
These transports have potential to be -very- good. It depends how they do their I2S.
I'll check it out when I get the schem
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I've been running I2S for a little while now and am very happy with the results. With extended listening in the early days pre-I2S, my brain was telling me that something wasn't quite right. Post-I2s, the gestalt is now more believable. This may be partly due to run in.
There are 2 further upgrades that I am considering on the cheap:
1) Insert a Trichord Clock 3 from my Marantz (requiring a frequency change to 11MHz)
2) Upgrade some resistors
Q's
1) I notice that the spec for the QLS clock is 2ppm, but the Trichord is 5ppm. Is it worth upgrading, or will it be a downgrade?
If this will be a step in the right direction, my initial intent is to steal the crystal from the QLS board and put it on the Trichord board. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the trigger on a replacement chip from Trichord.
2) Directed at Mario: I was going to buy some Takman resistors for my active crossover, but in that order can grab an extra ones. I note that you replaced a couple of resistors when you were playing around. I believe I have a later version of the QLS PCB, so can't plagiarise based on the photos. What components were the resistors sitting between?
you can by the qls crystals of ebay dont worry too much about ppm as none supply any test certificate to back up ppm.
Your better of buying crystals of ebay then trichord due to costs trichord charge around $50.00.
Send me a pm with the model number of your wav player and i can send you a schematic via email,the i2s on the wav player use 33r resistors change them.
reagrding which resistors i must remember first i will get back to you on that one.
Thanks Mario, I have been perusing the schematic
It's pretty easy to get I2S out of this device however that I2S comes directly from the dsPIC micro chip which is not the best approach.
Needs to have the zen treatment.
Is anyone else here interested in these players with an upgraded clock and properly implemented I2S OP?