The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Other DACs => Topic started by: bhobba on November 22, 2010, 11:13:29 AM
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Hi All
Myself and John Darko heard the first level 2 PDX just after it had been finished literally a few minutes before. It has a few enhancements over the base model such as valve rectification, Duelund capacitors and Ribbontek wiring. We listened to a prototype of the PDX first and then the newly made Level 2. The level 2 to my ears sounded even more detailed liquid and smooth. I thought I had heard good sibilance control in some DAC's before - but this was on another level. I have heard the Killer DAC and prior to this it was clearly the best DAC I had heard. I am not sure this DAC will best the Killer but I think it will be a genuine contest. We compared it to the Tranquility Signature and everyone preferred the PDX - but then again it is more expensive. The Tranquility was interesting in that even though it was a NOS it did not sound like it. John Darko has taken the Tranquility back to Sydney for review so watch out for it. I know Mario personally does not like the Tranquility and I do, but this PDX really is at another level and I think Mario would rather like it.
The PDX will remain at Mike Lenehan's for a while so people can have a listen - so guys up that way can check it out - but in a week or two I will take it back to my system. I may leave it a bit longer depending on interest.
Oh and this will be the DAC, along with the Tranquility Signature, I will sending to you Killer DAC guys in Perth. The base grade PDX is very good but to compete against the Killer you really need the level 2 PDX.
Thanks
Bill
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That's excellent news Bill. Very greatful for you to share your toys for us Perthians to experience. I wish there was something one of us has that we could send you to try?
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No problem mate.
If there is anything you would like to send thats fine by me. Right now what really interests me is I have found experimenting with USB and a transport the transport, much to my chagrin, simply clobbers it. In my hubris, and from what I read, I though the USB was pulling ahead. But what we found is transports benefit hugely from vibration isolation even more than a mac mini does and a statement transport it is well ahead - a modded but non statement transport we thought about 30% ahead.
Anyway because if that I though I might investigate a slightly different solution such as the QLS QA-350. I believe you guys have investigated the 550 and found it pretty good. If I could somehow check that out it would be very interesting. Trouble is it so dirt chap the transport costs would probably not make it worthwhile so I may get a QA-350 anyway.
Thanks
Bill
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Hi Bill, how much are the various incarnations of the pdx?
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Actually Mike handed me his latest price list with all sorts of options such as USB input, light-speed like volume control, remote, I2S input, all sorts of stuff. But just to give you an idea the base model is $1900.00 with SPDF input, and the level 2 model with internal Ribbontek wiring, Dulund Capacitors and Valve rectification - $3100. Of course you can get other stuff included such such as the volume control etc but to do it full justice I would really need to post the full price list. Let me know if you would like to see it and I will post it when I get a bit of time.
I think Mike may be sending a base model for review and for others to hear but I will see if you Killer DAC guys can get my level 2 to check out against the Killer since that will be a better comparison.
Thanks
Bill
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Bhobba, same as you, I had the impression that computer audio is the way to go in terms of sound quality. Given that a cd transport is better than a computer one, I am just wondering why not just get a statement cd player, instead of a cd transport with an external dac.
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Bhobba, same as you, I had the impression that computer audio is the way to go in terms of sound quality. Given that a cd transport is better than a computer one, I am just wondering why not just get a statement cd player, instead of a cd transport with an external dac.
Yes it is better but I find computer audio so convenient I am willing to put up with it not being the best. Also the computer we used as transport was not optimized so I will reserve final judgement until such a comparison is done. As far as a cd player goes, and while I have most certainly have not heard everything out there, I have not heard one near as good as the level 2 PDX.
Thanks
Bill
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Bhobba, same as you, I had the impression that computer audio is the way to go in terms of sound quality.
i had the same thoughts that computer audio is the future i hope they will make something that will be the next cd transport killer we just have to wait until it happens.
never heard a statement cd player in my life yet that includes ayre and acuphase top of the range players not worth the money IMHO.
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Yup, agreed that computer audio is up there in terms of convenience. Anyway, I am wondering why would a cd transport w external dac sound better than a cd player. In a cd player, the connections would be much shorter and thereotically at least, should sound better
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Yup, agreed that computer audio is up there in terms of convenience. Anyway, I am wondering why would a cd transport w external dac sound better than a cd player. In a cd player, the connections would be much shorter and thereotically at least, should sound better
*Theoretically* a corectly implemented USB -> I2S converter cct in the DAC should be superior to a CD transport.
An asynchronous USB -> I2S converter should have a buffer that is filled on demand. The I2S (DAC side) is clocked out from
a fixed, HQ clock.
Unfortunately there are a lot of things that can get messed up in the implementation... don't have time to go into them all.
cheers
Terry
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i just love theory in audio its out the window with reality ;D
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Bill what transport were you running with the PDX? I suppose the pdx to be quite sensitive to jitter..
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Yup, agreed that computer audio is up there in terms of convenience. Anyway, I am wondering why would a cd transport w external dac sound better than a cd player. In a cd player, the connections would be much shorter and thereotically at least, should sound better
There is zero reason why a CDP should not sound as good, or perhaps even better, than separates. Its just that my experience is similar to Mario's. I have not heard a CDP even close to the PDX or even the Tranquility for that matter. What there may be some argument about, and I hope to verify it soon one way or another, is if a cheap DVD player as transport such as a $40 el cheapo from KMart into the PDX sounds better than CDP's. I hope to check that out sometime next week after the cricket is over. My experience is it will be no contest, the cheap transport and PDX will be better. But we will find out.
Thanks
Bill
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Bill what transport were you running with the PDX? I suppose the pdx to be quite sensitive to jitter..
A heavily tweaked Marantz player as transport. My understanding is the PDX has a de-jitter circuit. As mentioned is a previous post will check how it performs with an el-cheapo transport.
Thanks
Bill
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Yup, agreed that computer audio is up there in terms of convenience. Anyway, I am wondering why would a cd transport w external dac sound better than a cd player. In a cd player, the connections would be much shorter and thereotically at least, should sound better
There is zero reason why a CDP should not sound as good, or perhaps even better, than separates. Its just that my experience is similar to Mario's. I have not heard a CDP even close to the PDX or even the Tranquility for that matter. What there may be some argument about, and I hope to verify it soon one way or another, is if a cheap DVD player as transport such as a $40 el cheapo from KMart into the PDX sounds better than CDP's. I hope to check that out sometime next week after the cricket is over. My experience is it will be no contest, the cheap transport and PDX will be better. But we will find out.
Thanks
Bill
Yes bill but the cheapo dvd players are very ordinary sounding. So good luck.
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My experience is it will be no contest, the cheap transport and PDX will be better. But we will find out.
In my experience, cheap dvd players kill the music. Can add a really harsh digital edge to the playback. De-jittering can help some, but isnt perfect. Abit like trying to polish a turd.
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Abit like trying to polish a turd.
yeh it still smells like sh!t :D
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Bill what transport were you running with the PDX? I suppose the pdx to be quite sensitive to jitter..
A heavily tweaked Marantz player as transport. My understanding is the PDX has a de-jitter circuit. As mentioned is a previous post will check how it performs with an el-cheapo transport.
Thanks
Bill
bill thanks, this tweaked marantz is i2s out or spdif? Would be quite interested in the comparison of the el cheapo.
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Yes bill but the cheapo dvd players are very ordinary sounding. So good luck.
Having heard the improvements a decent transport makes it is likely I will wince using a $40.00 transport but I suspect it will still sound good enough to best typical CD players. Anyway we will see.
Thanks
Bill
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bill thanks, this tweaked marantz is i2s out or spdif? Would be quite interested in the comparison of the el cheapo.
It was a mid level modded transport using SPDIF - not close to the full house modded transport with I2S I have heard which is drop dead good. Make no mistake the cheap DVD player will be a step down - the question though is how would it compare to your typical CDP at the same price point. I think it will still sound better based on experiments I have done with other DAC's - but we will find out.
Thanks
Bill
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bill thanks, this tweaked marantz is i2s out or spdif? Would be quite interested in the comparison of the el cheapo.
It was a mid level modded transport using SPDIF - not close to the full house modded transport with I2S I have heard which is drop dead good. Make no mistake the cheap DVD player will be a step down - the question though is how would it compare to your typical CDP at the same price point. I think it will still sound better based on experiments I have done with other DAC's - but we will find out.
Thanks
Bill
Bill some DVD players may be good, you need to do some homework. Anyone know of a good cheap DVD player for a transport that cuts it. All the ones i have heard are rubbish.
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Make no mistake the cheap DVD player will be a step down - the question though is how would it compare to your typical CDP at the same price point. I think it will still sound better based on experiments I have done with other DAC's - but we will find out.
Bill, that's quite a task you've set youself. I imagine the list of cdp's you will use to make this determination is huge.
I'm interested to hear more.
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Bill, that's quite a task you've set youself. I imagine the list of cdp's you will use to make this determination is huge. I'm interested to hear more.
You aren't whistling Dixie. I am hoping people will bring down some CDP's when they check out the PDX. I also know Mike has heard some CDP's recently as have I such as the Cambridge Audio 840. Anyway will keep you guys updated about what we find out. However for people contemplating buying a PDX I think this is something important to know - should you get a PDX and a cheap transport or a CDP and use it as a transport to upgrade to a PDX later. I will leave the cheap transport down at Mikes so people can check it out.
Thanks
Bill
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CA 840C is one of the most over rated CD players on the market IMO. In fact pretty much everything that CA make is overated......
I've heard plenty of CD players in this price range and TBH I find it staggering that anyone would enjoy the CA!! It sounds harsh and artificial on every system I've heard it on.
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wow..snap.... :P
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wow..snap.... :P
and its not kajak12 this time :D
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CA 840C is one of the most over rated CD players on the market IMO. In fact pretty much everything that CA make is overated......I've heard plenty of CD players in this price range and TBH I find it staggering that anyone would enjoy the CA!! It sounds harsh and artificial on every system I've heard it on.
Actually thats close to my recollection as well. I nearly bought one before I heard it. I think we can be reasonably assured the PDX even driven by pretty modest stuff will sound better than that. Other players will probably be a bit tougher to crack.
Thanks
Bill
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bill i congrat you for your dedication in finding the ideal partner to the pdx.....
let us know how you go with the cheapy vs other more 'expensive' dvd/universal players....
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CA 840C is one of the most over rated CD players on the market IMO. In fact pretty much everything that CA make is overated......
I've heard plenty of CD players in this price range and TBH I find it staggering that anyone would enjoy the CA!! It sounds harsh and artificial on every system I've heard it on.
Never heard CA 840C but I have the overrated Dacmagic in my bedroom and I agree with your comment, harsh and artificial, on top of that I can't hear any differences between transports...I thought I was deaf!
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Never heard CA 840C but I have the overrated Dacmagic in my bedroom and I agree with your comment, harsh and artificial, on top of that I can't hear any differences between transports...I thought I was deaf!
Try the CDC-TL1 on it, it was night and day difference between my Oppo dvd and CDC into my Dacmagic (and the Dacmagic has a buffered de-jittering and re-clocking stage). The fluidity the TL1 gave, was a very nice combination with the Dacmagic I thought (the was no edginess at all).
Never heard the 840C, but it can now be had for $1.3k - so it's the wrong price point to compare anyway.
Bill, you seem to be suggesting that you'll be making comparisons of DVD+PDX, to your recollections of higher priced CDP's. Hmmm, that's abit flawed. You'd have to at least hunt out something with an impeccable reputation for the comparison to be in any way meaningful.
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bill i congrat you for your dedication in finding the ideal partner to the pdx.....let us know how you go with the cheapy vs other more 'expensive' dvd/universal players....
Thanks mate.
The ideal source for the PDX will not be a modest DVD player - the issue is are you better off starting with that and a PDX than a similarly priced CDP and upgrading to a PDX later. And yes what I plan to do to check it out by not getting a heap of CDP's and comparing is not optimal but really doing that is out on practicality grounds. I will do what I can. I have zero doubt plenty will point out the flaws but IMHO it is better than nothing.
Thanks
Bill
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Never heard CA 840C but I have the overrated Dacmagic in my bedroom and I agree with your comment, harsh and artificial, on top of that I can't hear any differences between transports...I thought I was deaf!
Try the CDC-TL1 on it, it was night and day difference between my Oppo dvd and CDC into my Dacmagic (and the Dacmagic has a buffered de-jittering and re-clocking stage). The fluidity the TL1 gave, was a very nice combination with the Dacmagic I thought (the was no edginess at all).
Never heard the 840C, but it can now be had for $1.3k - so it's the wrong price point to compare anyway.
Bill, you seem to be suggesting that you'll be making comparisons of DVD+PDX, to your recollections of higher priced CDP's. Hmmm, that's abit flawed. You'd have to at least hunt out something with an impeccable reputation for the comparison to be in any way meaningful.
Most DVD players have a master clock of 27mHz to run the video section.
Usually the audio clock (11.2896Mhz or so) is generated from that 27mHz master clock... how's your division skills :)
There are various ways to do it but none are as good as a nice 11.2896 fixed clock fed by a good LN supply.
Then there's the extra processing induced noise from the video section - it's not hard to see why they are NFG as a transport.
cheers
Terry
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new look for pdx also a pcb will be used soon in the pdx
different colours are available WATCH OUT KILLER PDX IS COMING
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So did we ever get a price list? haha.
Also, does anyone know what tube Mike is using in the rectification stage?
Be keen to listen to a 1704uk based dac with a good tube output stage. (nudge nudge wink wink anyone in Perth that has one)
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So did we ever get a price list? haha.
Also, does anyone know what tube Mike is using in the rectification stage?
Be keen to listen to a 1704uk based dac with a good tube output stage. (nudge nudge wink wink anyone in Perth that has one)
i will get one sent down when mike completes his order book,new pcb boards arrived last week to speed up the process of manufacturing.one day their will be a kajak12 signature edition
the pdx level 2 does not have valve rectification i dont think pdx will ever have in the near future
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fair enough. i wonder if any pdx owners have rolled their 6922s I'm sure there would be a lot to gain over the stockies.
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fair enough. i wonder if any pdx owners have rolled their 6922s I'm sure there would be a lot to gain over the stockies.
your 110% right hens mike uses gold lion 6922 :'(
a lot more can be done with the pdx just wait untill i get my hands on one ;)
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The level 2 pdx naked version
priced at $3800 including i2s