The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Amplification (Pre/Power) => Topic started by: bhobba on November 29, 2010, 02:55:36 PM
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Beautiful work Steven. Looking forward to learning from you.
Man oh man are you ever not whistling Dixie. I am getting a SET built to check out on my ML3's:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson
If that works out OK I may have a chat with Steve how to get one of these beauties.
Thanks
Bill
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How efficient are the ML3? unless you use a big output triode like a 211 or 805 you might struggle with output.
Those look awesome though Steve.
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Beautiful work Steven. Looking forward to learning from you.
Man oh man are you ever not whistling Dixie. I am getting a SET built to check out on my ML3's:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson
If that works out OK I may have a chat with Steve how to get one of these beauties.
Thanks
Bill
I wouldnt even bother with SET and any of mike's speakers.... not enough power.
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I wouldnt even bother with SET and any of mike's speakers.... not enough power.
His ML3's are 89db efficient. Mike and I did a bit of a calculation and allowing 9db headroom figured you could get 86db average at your typical listening position. A few years ago I had an spl meter and checked the levels I listen at - it usually turned out to be between 75-80 db. Both Mike and I think it's worth a shot for those that don't listen at loud levels. Anyway we will find out. Remember listening at 90db and above for any length of time will damage your hearing - that would equate to about a 20 W amp. For an interesting discussion about watts check out:
http://www.ellisaudio.com/wattsratings.htm
Mike has confirmed the very flat impedance the ML3's have so it comes down to is the 89db sensitivity enough for a SET. As I said we will find out.
Thanks
Bill
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Will be very interesting to see how it goes :)
I'm sure the mids and highs will be great but for a low powered SET to really control the woofer will be a challenge!
What type of SET are you getting Bill? I'm working with Mr Chan to develop a 2a3/45 SET kit for myself and others if they are interested :) Nearly there!!
Tuyen
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Will be very interesting to see how it goes :) I'm sure the mids and highs will be great but for a low powered SET to really control the woofer will be a challenge! What type of SET are you getting Bill? I'm working with Mr Chan to develop a 2a3/45 SET kit for myself and others if they are interested :) Nearly there!!
Hi Tuyen.
I think it's from the same guy you are working with:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson
He hasn't started on it yet so if you and Eric think the SET you and him are working on could be better let me know and we could go that way. From chatting to Mike it seems the key thing as far as bass goes is the benign impedance load which the ML3's have.
Thanks
Bill
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No probs Bill. 2a3 output ~3watts, 45 tube ~1.5watts. High effeciency drivers (ie tannoys, goodmans axioms, altec 604 or horn loaded compression drivers) are most suited to these tubes. But in saying that, I have never heard the ML3 with a SET so cant really comment further!
I have tried a extremely modded AudioNote 300B SET (8watts) with my old ML1 (86db) and at low volumes it was okay (70-80db), but when pushing it up to 'engaging' listening volumes, the bass would get too loose and muddy (just not enough power to control the 5" woofer). Valve amps distort differently to solid state so it doesn't sound deafening when it starts distorting, just mainly the clarity of bass and mid bass gets affected.
When I have my ML1 Ultra hooked up to flemo's Ming Da EL34 (40watt triode) push pull amp, compared to my Yaqin EL34 (20watt triode), the bass is so much stronger and cleaner with the Ming Da. This helps to improve the clarity of vocals too. At lowish volumes though, I find them to be similar in performance. But I prefer to listen at medium to high volumes!
Now when I hook up the killeramp (eL34 built by Steve's mate Paul Baker) 100watt pushpull, the ML1 ultras really shine then.. Mike's speakers are very hungry for strong clean power to get them to run their best! Look how big and thick those hand wound inductors are :)
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No probs Bill. 2a3 output ~3watts, 45 tube ~1.5watts. High effeciency drivers (ie tannoys, goodmans axioms, altec 604 or horn loaded compression drivers) are most suited to these tubes. But in saying that, I have never heard the ML3 with a SET so cant really comment further! I have tried a extremely modded AudioNote 300B SET (8watts) with my old ML1 (86db) and at low volumes it was okay (70-80db), but when pushing it up to 'engaging' listening volumes, the bass would get too loose and muddy (just not enough power to control the 5" woofer). Valve amps distort differently to solid state so it doesn't sound deafening when it starts distorting, just mainly the clarity of bass and mid bass gets affected. When I have my ML1 Ultra hooked up to flemo's Ming Da EL34 (40watt triode) push pull amp, compared to my Yaqin EL34 (20watt triode), the bass is so much stronger and cleaner with the Ming Da. This helps to improve the clarity of vocals too. At lowish volumes though, I find them to be similar in performance. But I prefer to listen at medium to high volumes! Now when I hook up the killeramp (eL34 built by Steve's mate Paul Baker) 100watt pushpull, the ML1 ultras really shine then.. Mike's speakers are very hungry for strong clean power to get them to run their best! Look how big and thick those hand wound inductors are :)
Hi Tuyn
Yea it's that extra 3db sensitivity that I think makes a SET feasible with the ML3 rather than an ML1. However I think the power output of your amps are a little low for even ML3's - although I have heard of people using 3W on 89db speakers before and it was OK. Basically it would mean a maximum of about 81db at your typical listening position. I think I may try it if the 8W SET works out. My feeling on this is it depends on the levels you like to listen at - I listen at low to medium levels so its probably OK. At medium to high levels forget about it.
Anyway like a lot of the stuff I do checking it out is way fun.
Thanks
Bill
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Worth checking out definitely, but honestly, even at 89db sensitivity I wouldn't bother with anything less than 25w and there are only a few triodes that can do that.
Sure it will run with less than 25w but that extra power does equate to extra "grip/control"
If you can afford it though Bill go a nice 211 SET amp :)
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http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/211_SE_stereo.html (http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/211_SE_stereo.html)
http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/EL156_SE_telefunken_tubes_monos.html (http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/EL156_SE_telefunken_tubes_monos.html)
http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/ONGAKU_COPY_211SE.html (http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/ONGAKU_COPY_211SE.html)
Maybe something like those things? :)
Very curious about tubeguru stuff.. not local though! Guy is all the way in Hungary. Ex. Siemens labs engineer !
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Just split the posts regarding using SET amps with Mike's speakers to a new thread :)
Hope you guys don't mind!
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Worth checking out definitely, but honestly, even at 89db sensitivity I wouldn't bother with anything less than 25w and there are only a few triodes that can do that. Sure it will run with less than 25w but that extra power does equate to extra "grip/control" If you can afford it though Bill go a nice 211 SET amp :)
Ouch - they cost nearly 10K if I remember correctly - but they do produce 15W.
Thanks
Bill
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Just split the posts regarding using SET amps with Mike's speakers to a new thread :) Hope you guys don't mind!
From my viewpoint a great idea.
Thanks
Bill
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Beautiful work Steven. Looking forward to learning from you.
Man oh man are you ever not whistling Dixie. I am getting a SET built to check out on my ML3's:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson
If that works out OK I may have a chat with Steve how to get one of these beauties.
Thanks
Bill
bill not enough to have magic you need more watts for ml3's they will play with set but so do computer transports with a killer dac and the end result will be ordinary.
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Very curious about tubeguru stuff.. not local though! Guy is all the way in Hungary. Ex. Siemens labs engineer !
Interesting looking stuff. Other 211 SET stuff I am aware of cost $10K but they tend to produce more output than other SET's. 25W sure looks a good amount of power with 89 db speakers - I know Joe Rasmussen's 20W JLTI powers ML1's just fine - I have checked that myself. I figure just under half that with 3db more efficient speakers should be OK - but 25W and 3db more efficient - well even if you go loud then you probably will be OK. Might look into getting those 211 25w mono-blocks a bit further down the line.
Thanks
Bill
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bill not enough to have magic you need more watts for ml3's they will play with set but so do computer transports with a killer dac and the end result will be ordinary.
Could be. Fun to check out though - the amp only costs $750 so I am willing to give it a go.
Thanks
Bill
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bill not enough to have magic you need more watts for ml3's they will play with set but so do computer transports with a killer dac and the end result will be ordinary.
Could be. Fun to check out though - the amp only costs $750 so I am willing to give it a go.
Thanks
Bill
your money bill why not
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After listening to the ML-3's powered by a 8W SET amp I would definitely not recommend the combo. Lots of very audible distortion at even moderate SPL's as there is not enough head room for dynamically demanding passages.
The 70W Naksa seemed like it was enough to drive the ML3's comfortably even to some pretty crazy levels. I left the room while the guys were doing that sort of stuff.
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I've tried my ML1+R's with a variety of amplifiers.
15W SET drove them OK but only at reasonably low volumes. Once the wick was turned up they got a bit raggerdy ass.
Also tried a Push Pull RM10 35W. This was much better and I could live with this.
Heavily modified 100W B&O Ice mono blocks drove them beautifully but only with a high gain output Valve Pre
Next up was a Proton SS AD-1150 50W. Drove the Lenehan's well but sound is not as sweet as with the RM10
Best so far is the flat amp of the Sansui AU-X1 SS. This thingy has 180W RMS
Seems the ML1+R's love to be driven. Hard and expensive to do with a SET but well within reach of a push pull valve amp.
Will prolly try some Naska 100 monoblocks with Tuyens ultras later. Hoping that will be the best combination.
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After listening to the ML-3's powered by a 8W SET amp I would definitely not recommend the combo. Lots of very audible distortion at even moderate SPL's as there is not enough head room for dynamically demanding passages.
The 70W Naksa seemed like it was enough to drive the ML3's comfortably even to some pretty crazy levels. I left the room while the guys were doing that sort of stuff.
good idea dritz your hearing would suffer after exposure to the levels played that day ;
yes the naksa what a amp value for money at its best
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After listening to the ML-3's powered by a 8W SET amp I would definitely not recommend the combo. Lots of very audible distortion at even moderate SPL's as there is not enough head room for dynamically demanding passages.
Will check it out anyway with the crossover tweak Mike is working on for low powered amps. However the 15W Leben drives them beautifully - but that amp has good drive. The SET I want to use doesn't - which is not a good sign.
Thanks
Bill
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Watts is not really the issue here ... if you don't have enough, you won't be able to make enough noise, simple. You seem like me, and only listen at reasonably low levels, so only a handful of watts might not be a deal breaker.
The key to whether it will make nice sound is the impedance of the amplifier VS the impedance curve of the speaker. If the amp and speaker impedance values aren't suitable for each other, you will have a modified frequency response, and reduced ability for the amplifier to stop the speaker (particularly around Fs).
Text books throw numbers around like ideally having a factor of 10 between amplifier output impedance and speaker impedance .... although depending on what you're doing (fullrange drivers, active speaker, etc, etc.) then these 'negatives' might not be such a big deal if you have lower.
If you're "having an amp made", then I'd strongly suggest getting it designed to the lowest output impedance practical.... Depending on the impedance curve of the ML3 of course, although BR speakers IME usually show the biggest benefit from good amp/speaker coupling.
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I have tried the Leben 15W. Sounds bloody fantastic on the ML3's (fully up there with the Mac 501's - with the midrange perhaps even better) but Mike thinks it can mate better by a tweak to the ML3's crossover. I have been told by John Darko though who has the SET that was made for me its drive is not that good and may have trouble with the ML3's. I guess we will find out.
Thanks
Bill
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I have tried the Leben 15W. Sounds bloody fantastic on the ML3's (fully up there with the Mac 501's - with the midrange perhaps even better) but Mike thinks it can mate better by a tweak to the ML3's crossover. I have been told by John Darko though who has the SET that was made for me its drive is not that good and may have trouble with the ML3's. I guess we will find out.
Thanks
Bill
what about the depth of the laben against the 501 macs?(501 macs have no depth)
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what about the depth of the laben against the 501 macs?(501 macs have no depth)
Hi Mario
It had good depth - but I have to say I never really noticed the bad depth of th Mac's.
Thanks
Bill
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what about the depth of the laben against the 501 macs?(501 macs have no depth)
Hi Mario
It had good depth - but I have to say I never really noticed the bad depth of th Mac's.
Thanks
Bill
i will tell you why bill you haven't heard better so its understandable that you dont know
while mike has his speakers so close to the wall(i have my ml1's 1.5 from rear wall) for depth
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i will tell you why bill you haven't heard better so its understandable that you dont know while mike has his speakers so close to the wall(i have my ml1's 1.5 from rear wall) for depth
You may be right. I have mine about that distance from the wall so I don't really have the issue.
Thanks
Bill
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As some of you may know I recently got a Trafomatic Experience Two from John Darko. I got it for some ML1's I will be using as my computer speakers where my ears will be really close to the speakers so its 8w will be fine. Since I haven't got those speakers yet I tried it on some ML3's. This is one fine amp and as John Darko says it's really feisty. Everyone was surprised how well it it drove them. We had it at volumes comparable to what was being used with Mac 501's - way above what I would have them at and it did sound a bit stretched but still really lovely. I have no doubt at the levels I listen at (it is quite a bit lower than that) it won't be stretched and probably will be better again. Anyway since I haven't got my computer speakers yet its no use taking it back to my place so if you are down Lenehan Audio way you can pop in and have a listen. Only thing is don't wind the wick up.
Will report further once it is permanently in my system.
Thanks
Bill
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you need to try yourself a kdac bill you really do.
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Hi Guys
Heard the Traformatic with a John Kenny I2S PDX and ML3 Referencs. Here is what one guy said:
'Then a Trafomatic 8W SET valve amp got a chance to play, and offered up a Diana Krall live recording with absolutely stunning quality. You wouldn't want to throw anything too dynamic at it, but oh my god the HiFace/PDX/Trafomatic/ML3 combination did something magic together.'
The Traformatic will now be well an truly used in my main system.
SET's can definitely work with ML3's.
Thanks
Bill