The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Cables => Topic started by: vitavoxdude on January 04, 2011, 10:40:51 PM
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Hello fellow addicts.
I notice over on SNA that a write up for an upsonic power conditioner with follow up is included. Having been deeply involved in the manufacture of a power filter(?) the 'Bravura' in the past the guy actually honestly wrote of his findings which largley echo my thoughts. When and thats a big when the ac MAINS IS CLEAN AND STABLE ( fairly rear and usually on a weekend when all the welders are in bed) then the addition of a power regulator / conditioner is maginal and some times with powerfull amps squashes peaks. He used a 5KVA device which is plenty for all but Krells etc. One point I disagree with him is plugging in the whole system to the one device - here he could not hear any improvements which is no suprise to me. My experiance flys in the face of this with each piece of equiment being fed off its own device for isolation improves matters substantialy ( earthing needs addressing ). He noted comments regarding CD players putting dirty signals back into the mains but did not go further.
Most hifi shows held in hotels suffer as a result of all those audio system drawing power and injecting their own dirty signals back into the ring mains.
I guess that having individual supplies for each bit of kit puts it out of reach of many. Balanced isolation transformers in conjunction with some choke and cap filtering can give a quieter background (inky blacks in AV terms which is silence between notes for audio) and redcue HF hash. I would recommend a visit to TNT to check out thier 'Dorchester doorman' as this goes a long way at fairly minimal cost. Ferroresonant transformers also can have a beneficial effect through its windings and construction being used to reduce hash, has anyone tried these in their systems?
I would be interested in your feedback here to see if its a good idea to produce a couple for club consumption.
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i have a black box and a Thoroughbred Sequenced Power Interface
they both work on my system very well
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Hi Mario ;D
A 'Thoroughbred Sequenced Power Interface' is that the black box behind your system? Sequencing usual refers to the power up of equipment. Was it the power co that produced the inductive filtration unit? I saw a couple advertised on ebay, unfortunately I missed them as I would have liked to have seen their take on filtration.
I have used power regeneration units in my work but these generally are too expensive for audio folk and run pretty hot being a continuous supply device. :-\
I recently purchased a rack mounted power filter device aimed at Pro PA and muso's, on opening the box I had a real good laugh, what I had really bought was two downward pointing dimmable lights for the rack, the filers were a joke, the mains voltage indicator and current draw meter provide amusement value only, and this from a 'specialist pro supplier' I could have achieved the same filtration for around 20 dollars, disappointed - yup, should I have known better -yup, did the 'marketing boy's get one over on me - sadly yes they did, damn, at least it looks flash in the rack :'(
Anyone else use power filters or special home made distribution units for their mains feeds? The distribution units for computer servers are usually a cut well above the normal chocolate boxes which pass as distribution for mains, plastic fantastics with loose ill-fitting sockets, nasty mains indicators and less than optimal mains cables. Some of these don’t even have the earth connection – be warned and as for those ‘one socket fits all’, well they don’t and introduce noise to your system. At least with the server distro's you get a metal enclosure with properly fitting sockets which grip the plugs really well and usually have a re settable circuit breaker fitted as standard. A quick swap of the mains feed cable for something more suitable and hey presto an instant upgrade for beer money.
Rgds
V
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Most hifi shows held in hotels suffer as a result of all those audio system drawing power and injecting their own dirty signals back into the ring mains.
Explains why I wasn't really impressed with any of the setups at the Singapore hifi show recently (my first and prob only hifi show I will go ever)...
Anyone else use power filters or special home made distribution units for their mains feeds?
Me use a PSAudio .. I can't really tell if it's an improvement or not, just that this (and Belkin PF-40 before) removed pops when the fridge outside kicks in.
Am thinking of adding a dedicated line, or geting a power regenerator but dont' think it's worth it for my equipment....
As for computer power distribution.. The power board my company uses have very thick cables, almost half inch think if not more, terminated with a 3 pin socket that's the size of a small child's fist (no idea what that connector is called). I wonder if that's 3 phase?
Computer power can be very serious, I think even more so for audio equipment... :p
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Hi Mario ;D
A 'Thoroughbred Sequenced Power Interface' is that the black box behind your system? Sequencing usual refers to the power up of equipment. Was it the power co that produced the inductive filtration unit? I saw a couple advertised on ebay, unfortunately I missed them as I would have liked to have seen their take on filtration.
I have used power regeneration units in my work but these generally are too expensive for audio folk and run pretty hot being a continuous supply device. :-\
I recently purchased a rack mounted power filter device aimed at Pro PA and muso's, on opening the box I had a real good laugh, what I had really bought was two downward pointing dimmable lights for the rack, the filers were a joke, the mains voltage indicator and current draw meter provide amusement value only, and this from a 'specialist pro supplier' I could have achieved the same filtration for around 20 dollars, disappointed - yup, should I have known better -yup, did the 'marketing boy's get one over on me - sadly yes they did, damn, at least it looks flash in the rack :'(
Anyone else use power filters or special home made distribution units for their mains feeds? The distribution units for computer servers are usually a cut well above the normal chocolate boxes which pass as distribution for mains, plastic fantastics with loose ill-fitting sockets, nasty mains indicators and less than optimal mains cables. Some of these don’t even have the earth connection – be warned and as for those ‘one socket fits all’, well they don’t and introduce noise to your system. At least with the server distro's you get a metal enclosure with properly fitting sockets which grip the plugs really well and usually have a re settable circuit breaker fitted as standard. A quick swap of the mains feed cable for something more suitable and hey presto an instant upgrade for beer money.
Rgds
V
black box is of ebay
thorough bred is from http://www.audiomarketplace.com.au/component/page,shop.product_details/category_id,89/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,206/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,49/
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Ah So - Black Box
from Iwan yes ?
did you ever look inside this one ?
Just curious, I haven't looked in mine.
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Ah So - Black Box
from Iwan yes ?
did you ever look inside this one ?
Just curious, I haven't looked in mine.
yes i have and got photos of it the problem is my new conditioner works better on my system
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Mario, did you pull a new power connection from the meter box to your room, or are you just using your existing power outlets + a conditioner?
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Mario, did you pull a new power connection from the meter box to your room, or are you just using your existing power outlets + a conditioner?
i have a dedicated power supply for my system so i am using existing power outlets for comparison
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Vitavox
That sounds a total rip off, its one reason I have held back on filtration. I had wondered if power filters used for hospitals may have merit, some monitoring equipment may get effected by dirty power. There are some specialist firms when I looked into this years ago, but price aren’t low, but they may actually work unlike hi fi products that look good but ‘are all show and no go’.
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Vitavox
That sounds a total rip off, its one reason I have held back on filtration. I had wondered if power filters used for hospitals may have merit, some monitoring equipment may get effected by dirty power. There are some specialist firms when I looked into this years ago, but price aren’t low, but they may actually work unlike hi fi products that look good but ‘are all show and go’.
I have tried a 3 or 4 power conditioner and in almost all cases they do clean up the noise to a varying degree, but at the same time remove some of the body and weight, these conditioners often sound sterile, Why" some will say this is because they remove the grunge and noise, and that is what you hear as body and weight. In a system like mine that is tuned to the n'th degree they have no place. How many times have we removed these supposed colouration's from our systems and ended up with something that ends up sounding like. HIFI.
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I have used filters over the years like you would not believe....Passive...active...parallel....series....you name it.
I even ended up with 5kVa per component active transformer (so spikes AND brownouts) pure OFC ...moneywise nearly unobtainable.... 8)...so what do you mean no dynamics... ;D
Two years ago I accidently connected my transport straight...oh man....I ditched the filter without blinking...and so followed 5 of them.... :o
For me no filters unless in the digital domain implemented wisely...but stay away in the analog part...no matter how expensive or what they promise....to my ears they rob you from music....
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F@ck the electricity bill...all very active 24/7.........do not let them fool you....they do a lot....but once all your components are upgraded to the max ditch the lot of them...
What does help nearly always is dedicated powerlines each their own group and pick a dedicated clean phase...
I use Oyaide cable and connectors for all the components (biggest bang for the buck) and Oyaide cable starting at the beginning...... so where it enters my house... ;)
Tne spectecular power conditioners are all gone...........I have never been so honest ;D
(http://members.ziggo.nl/e.van.voorst/Net-filter.jpg)
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??? You will need to have a very good system indeed not to be able to take advantage of the benefits of an isolated balanced mains feed. Recording studios around the globe use them for a good reason. Forget the el cheapo Torrodial transformers in a box, they only get you so far, the older plate and frame transformers are the ones to go for. If your kit already has a superb power supply with multiple chokes and over rated power transformers then your mileage will vary as to their success in bringing you closer to the music, but be aware that in order to not squash dynamics and full body harmonics you are going to need a power factor of around five to one more than the current draw of the attached equipment. So for my Krell that would require a 25KVA transformer which is a fork lift truck size so that's never going to happen. 5Kva is a good starting point for power amps where current draw is reasonably low. Ensure they are not spoilt by silly fuses which act as thermal regulators (re settable circuit breakers are the only way to go) and make sure your distribution mains panel has high inrush RCCD's that will not trip each time the units are turned on.
More advanced units use ferro resonance to regulate the voltage and have high attenuation in the HF which all helps to remove the constant barrage of noise on the mains. You can also achieve soo much more by simply adding a dedicated 30amp ring main with decent cable and having a separate earth for your audio but that's for the die hards only.
V.
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??? You will need to have a very good system indeed not to be able to take advantage of the benefits of an isolated balanced mains feed. Recording studios around the globe use them for a good reason. Forget the el cheapo Torrodial transformers in a box, they only get you so far, the older plate and frame transformers are the ones to go for. If your kit already has a superb power supply with multiple chokes and over rated power transformers then your mileage will vary as to their success in bringing you closer to the music, but be aware that in order to not squash dynamics and full body harmonics you are going to need a power factor of around five to one more than the current draw of the attached equipment. So for my Krell that would require a 25KVA transformer which is a fork lift truck size so that's never going to happen. 5Kva is a good starting point for power amps where current draw is reasonably low. Ensure they are not spoilt by silly fuses which act as thermal regulators (re settable circuit breakers are the only way to go) and make sure your distribution mains panel has high inrush RCCD's that will not trip each time the units are turned on.
More advanced units use ferro resonance to regulate the voltage and have high attenuation in the HF which all helps to remove the constant barrage of noise on the mains. You can also achieve soo much more by simply adding a dedicated 30amp ring main with decent cable and having a separate earth for your audio but that's for the die hards only.
V.
What sort of money does something on this scale cost? I would consider it for when I move to my house at the coast and electrican dont charge the rates they do here. Id believe you. I wonder what scientific labs and hospitals use
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Hospitals have a different requirement for leakage to earth. Normal households are around 60mA whereas medical is closer to 15mA. Isolation transformers are used but I don't think they use balanced transformers. This question is probably better answered by some one like ZenElectro as its his field.
The most benefit using such devices appears with low consumption units such as CD front ends where it can remove a fair bit of 'glare and whiteness'. Power amps can be seriously throttled back if you do not have a really big > 5KVa transformer as many manufactures run the cores too hard with core temperatures running at 'gosh I cannot hold my hand on it' to save money by skimping on the size of the core. Forget torrodials, they are cheap yes but you get what you pay for.
Airlink transformer from the UK sell Torrodial units cheap, locally made will be around 50% dearer but you really need a good plate and frame with varnish impregnation for each of your units, this keeps them from talking to each other via the mains. Every power supply injects back into the mains a dirty signal, 100Hz hash from the rectifier diodes etc. Better to have 3 x 500 Va balanced iso transformers powering the front end ( pre, transport, dac) than one larger unit IMV. There are suppliers advertising on Ebay. I would suggest getting the dedicated ring main first off with reasonable wiring, this makes a huge difference, ask Dave Willow. Once this is done then getting the balanced power will make more of a difference if you have sufficient spare on the Kva side IMV
V
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Yes, following V's advice I had a dedicated 30amp ring main installed and for me it definitely made a positive difference, more so in the 'consistency' of quality and noise floor instead of the lows and highs driven by what's happening with household components each evening as much as anything else.
If I were to do it again I would push the boat out and go for fully shielded cable, whether that would make an more difference I don't know but I would do it anyway.
Oi Brooksy, it's 'Willo' with no last 'W'... Willow was a strange little midget.... Oh wait! :o
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Vitavox
That sounds a total rip off, its one reason I have held back on filtration. I had wondered if power filters used for hospitals may have merit, some monitoring equipment may get effected by dirty power. There are some specialist firms when I looked into this years ago, but price aren’t low, but they may actually work unlike hi fi products that look good but ‘are all show and go’.
I have tried a 3 or 4 power conditioner and in almost all cases they do clean up the noise to a varying degree, but at the same time remove some of the body and weight, these conditioners often sound sterile, Why" some will say this is because they remove the grunge and noise, and that is what you hear as body and weight. In a system like mine that is tuned to the n'th degree they have no place. How many times have we removed these supposed colouration's from our systems and ended up with something that ends up sounding like. HIFI.
Steven, you are right on WRT conditioners.
I was always perplexed why these things often make the sound worse WRT 'musicality' and 'tone'. So I simulated as best I could this whole
transformer / filter circuit recently and found some interesting answers that -may- be the cause. The simulations showed that all of the RF filtering and various inductances
of the filters and transformer (leakage) appear to cause VHF resonance spikes (High 'Q') even though there is RF filtering going on. This would also
be very load dependent, ie; what you plug into it.
Further to this if you plug any decent size amp with large filter caps in to one, every time the diodes conduct and slam into the load of the filter caps, this will
induce some of these HF resonances. This definitely showed up on the sims.
One solution appears to be damping and I recently built up another balanced / filtered supply with special resistive damping networks to try and overcome
this resonance problem. It seems to work to a degree but there is still a marked sonic effect of cleaning everything up which washes out the midrange a bit.
Even on my guitar amp it changes the tone significantly. I have to do more testing on hi fi stuff to see if the tonal change is too pronounced.
I meant to bring this new 700VA balanced supply up to Steves to see what it does on his system but haven't got around to it yet.
But I still tend to agree with the original view that if you have really good power supplies in your gear these are not needed.
Z
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Hospitals have a different requirement for leakage to earth. Normal households are around 60mA whereas medical is closer to 15mA. Isolation transformers are used but I don't think they use balanced transformers. This question is probably better answered by some one like ZenElectro as its his field.
The most benefit using such devices appears with low consumption units such as CD front ends where it can remove a fair bit of 'glare and whiteness'. Power amps can be seriously throttled back if you do not have a really big > 5KVa transformer as many manufactures run the cores too hard with core temperatures running at 'gosh I cannot hold my hand on it' to save money by skimping on the size of the core. Forget torrodials, they are cheap yes but you get what you pay for.
Airlink transformer from the UK sell Torrodial units cheap, locally made will be around 50% dearer but you really need a good plate and frame with varnish impregnation for each of your units, this keeps them from talking to each other via the mains. Every power supply injects back into the mains a dirty signal, 100Hz hash from the rectifier diodes etc. Better to have 3 x 500 Va balanced iso transformers powering the front end ( pre, transport, dac) than one larger unit IMV. There are suppliers advertising on Ebay. I would suggest getting the dedicated ring main first off with reasonable wiring, this makes a huge difference, ask Dave Willow. Once this is done then getting the balanced power will make more of a difference if you have sufficient spare on the Kva side IMV
V
We seem to have different experiences.
Steven(valve) and myself tried many of these and the only one that sounded half decent was based on a balanced 2.5kVA toroidal transformer and moderate RF filtering.
I built many after this with various EI cores, normal silicon, grain oriented steel, running core at various levels etc etc and more aggressive filtering and they all sounded worse.
Lots of clean detail but tone was washed out severely.
My advice after lots of direct experience is proceed with caution when using them.
Z
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As a separate note, Vita mentioned Ferro resonant transformers (CVT / constant voltage transformer).
I have not tried these yet but have spoken to someone that had very positive experience with them.
This is one thing I would like to try as they are fundamentally different from all other transformers / supplies in that
they virtually 'regenerate' the OP waveform through a tuned circuit. As such they need no RF filtering as virtually
nothing will make it through the transformer.
These are potentially the best solution but I don't have the time or money ATM to try one.
Downsides are: They are also extremely magnetically noisy so need to be away from your gear, they are
physically very large for a given VA, they can also be mechanically noisy.
Worth a try for someone.
Z
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Thanks for your thoughts Zen. As a former seller of my own kit under the Bravura banner I can tell you that you have to get the right transformer and much like Edison can show you 1000 ways of not making a light bulb; these things react with your built in power supplies. Once you overcome the VA issues surrounding supply 'stiffness' you then have to tune the damn things on the secondary side and sprinkle pixie dust on what comes AFTER it.
Naim (UK) went through lots of problems when their original transformer supplier went out of business because they could not get a supposedly identical unit from another manufacturer sounding good! Remember all amplifier manufacturers try to tune there units to sound good with typical matched price speakers and some times even their own brand speakers which can leave an amp sounding 'cold or brittle' or 'soft and diffuse'.
Zen is correct about mechanical noise from Ferro resonant designs, I have several and they suffer from magnostriction (look it up), they are usually larger than the same VA for regular trannies and run hotter.
So my original advice stands - get the ring mains done first then think about strange little midgets (!) sorry Dave ;). Get the biggest device her in doors will permit making sure its a plate and frame, your front end gear is where to use it and a separate unit per device; starts getting expensive but is cheap when you think of the realms of 20K cd spinners etc. Of course you can always splash out on a PS audio power regenerator (highly recommended) but users of Krells need not apply.
One of the reasons valve amps can shine brightly above SS averageness IMV is their version of rectification, no nasty diode spikes being reflected back through to the power transformer and into the rest of your system and chokes to help rid the roughness / dirtiness of the squiglies running though it!
Zen - you'll need considerably larger than 700VA to not squash a system to sounding thin and flat IMV. Get a tranny manufacturer to wind you a 700VA on a 1.5KVA core and spec the temp rise to within a few degree's, make sure its a plate and frame or you are wasting your time, the bigger it is the better, you can place a regular light bulb (say 100w) to 'damp' the transformer for cheapness on the secondary side or you can drive your self nuts (well maybe not in your case) on trying to tune it and achieve greatness, any thing less and you run the risk of condemning the whole thing to the bin. Brilliance = 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
V who has not been paid for the last 6 weeks work as YET- Malaysians I love you!!!!!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
REMEMBER THIS......an amplified music replay system is just ac mains chopped up into pieces and stuck back together again, feed it crap and guess what........................
SNA'ers check out the IMV LOL.
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I think I know what you're saying, but just be 100% clear what is meant by "get the mains ring done first" ? ???
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:) A ring mains feed is where a loop of mains feed cable passes around a room or floor and returns the the mains distribution board, therefor unlike a spur - where a single cable runs off a ring. Looking at the wiring in my own home it has many spurs running off a ring mains.
If you are to do this then high inrush current mains RCCD's should feed 30 amp or more screened cable which feeds the audio only. Keeping all the dimmer circuits for lights and computers /T.V.'s etc away from this 'clean feed' will pay dividends in a lower noise floor and a better current delivery to your kit. A better mains earth also lowers the noise floor.
A balanced mains feed transformer (plate and frame only please) will also rid your system of additional mains grunge but these need to be large.
I would say you need to spend around 4k to do this properly and that's using ordinary vanilla flavor mains cables and outlets or if you are overflowing with wonga then use Furakawa or similar cables for a more 'refined' result.
This assumes you have already finished optomising your own 'system' and are looking for additional gains in blackness between notes, better space around instruments (if recorded in the first place) and an ease which comes from less HF hash.
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4k!! :o
I am looking at just installing 2 x isolated dual GPO's with 30 amp cable and 15A outlets. I think this is good start and much better than I presently have. 8)
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Yes, it should be a nudge in the right direction, first make a mechanical joint and the flow some solder to make a gas tight seal; all after cleaning the connections first! ;)
You may think about installing better quality mains outlets as the standard ones are just plain bad; they are noise generators through naff contacts. A good system will show this up fairly clearly. As most people do not use electric cookers with thier huge current demands you might place the audio feed ahead on the distribution unit making it first dibs on what ever your power company has deemed OK at your distro. This time of year the ground is getting drier :'( so time to enhance your earthing situation.
V ;D
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This time of year the ground is getting drier :'( so time to enhance your earthing situation.
V ;D
FWIW, it's illegal to mess with your ground and in 99% of cases won't give any improvement, ie; putting
in additional ground stakes.
I have read a few good white papers on the subject by companies that deal explicitly in power and grounding.
The bottom line is that to gain any meaningful lowering of impedance to ground - which is what you are trying
to do, the ground stake has to be >20 feet deep and the hole filled with specially treated 'aggregate'.
There are cases where these companies install additional (approved) grounding to large buildings in lightning prone areas. The result
that works is often a matrix of 30 to 40 feet deep ground rods, equally spaced right around the perimeter of the
building. This gives you an idea of what it takes.
Z
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Electrical Earthing Definition
Earthing is the term used to define the connection of “exposed conductive parts” of an installation or appliance to the main earthing terminal for that electrical installation.
The means of earthing of an electrical installation is the method of connection to the general mass of earth (the ground) for the exposed conductive parts. The exposed conductive parts are connected to the general mass of earth via the main earth terminal.
Prior to starting any electrical installation work the electrician you employ should visually inspect the electrical supply arrangements to establish that there is a provision of a satisfactory means of connection to the main earthing terminal.
What happens where no main earth is present or it is unsatisfactory?
Where it is found that electrical installation has no visible main connection to earth and /or the installations “Earth Loop Impedance” is unacceptably high, the installer /electrician should not connect any new work to your electrical system. If the Earth Loop Impedance is high there is not a free path for the electricity to safely flow to the ground.
Further investigations will then be required to establish where the earth path is within your house. It was the practice in the past to use the water pipes, this is no longer satisfactory and has not been permitted since 1966 as any work on your water supply would involve use of temporary earth bonds to bridge sections of water pipe where possible .
It has never been allowed to use a gas pipe as an earthing path.
IMV one earth spike is not enough, particuallay when it is driven into a sandy dry soil composition. I have multiple high surface area earth spikes which are periodically watered to keep resistance to earth low; this can be measured. Too many homes have earth spikes where the connections are long ago deteriorated by corrosion to become high resistance connections which reduces the effectiveness of a 'ground ' and reduces the householders safety. Zen is of course correct in stating it not permitted for a unlicensed person to hook up any device to the mains distribution system which could bring about a dangerous situation, but earthing has to be low resistance. Here in Oz it's just a single bloody wire from a water pipe to the earthing rod from what I have seen at many peoples homes, hardly a good scenario and inadequate for many residences. It's a cheap quick fix to keep in line with MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS. How many of you have had your earth resistance tested in the last 5 years, yeah right, thought so, check it in Summer and it will fail and fall short of the requirements in many instances.
I have attached a couple of images for Pete illustrating the difference between a ring and a spur. Hope this helps.
V
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My meter box is about 2 metres from where I can install a dedicated power point for my system (basically, it is on the other side of the wall). For such a short run, is there much difference to using a 6mm2 spur vs 6mm2 ring with only the one double GPO on it?
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If its only a 2m run then use some high quality Oyaide :P / Furakawa :P or similar wiring, it will have the same effect as a water filter. Ring is always better than a spur IMV. Don't forget the wall outlets either. This is something you only do once unless you move so make it right. ;D. Get the Earth connection cleaned and measured at the same time by your electrician, earth stakes are cheap!
V :)
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Thanks V.
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:) Yes I have probably read the same white papers too but we are not dealing with industrial parks and the like with different requirements for grounding for high voltage 3 phase arrangements etc. Due to the relatively low price of a ground spike I still advocate banging another couple in and bonding them together as silica (sand) foundations that most builders like using to place house 'pad's onto' present a high resistance to ground and fail to provide a good earth ground (IMV) As long as you do not create a 'super low resistance' where other houses in the street will flow earth currents to instead of their own system earth then you should be OK. A bit of research into technical grounds (which Zen has obviously already done) and recording studio grounds will pay off handsomely in lower background noise and enhanced space in your audio listening pleasure or of course you could invest in an all DC power source for your listening kit but that's expensive. A few submarine batteries and a shed to keep them in would overcome the power struggle which every day is getting worse and worse. :-X :'(
V ???
This time of year the ground is getting drier :'( so time to enhance your earthing situation.
V ;D
FWIW, it's illegal to mess with your ground and in 99% of cases won't give any improvement, ie; putting
in additional ground stakes.
I have read a few good white papers on the subject by companies that deal explicitly in power and grounding.
The bottom line is that to gain any meaningful lowering of impedance to ground - which is what you are trying
to do, the ground stake has to be >20 feet deep and the hole filled with specially treated 'aggregate'.
There are cases where these companies install additional (approved) grounding to large buildings in lightning prone areas. The result
that works is often a matrix of 30 to 40 feet deep ground rods, equally spaced right around the perimeter of the
building. This gives you an idea of what it takes.
Z
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Zenelectro
Worth a try for someone.......
This sounds ideal, not worried about noise as this set up can be well away from the listening area.
What would one cost? When I move to my coast house I am prepared to go the whole hog on the power supply. I have plenty of room for a big transformer rack in the garage. I am a whole hog kind of guy, no half measures....
Yet the big question is are we talking mega bucks???? Id be happy to make this an experimental project yet it will be a few years before I move.
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The average sparky isn't going to know about this? Or am I mistaken, who could you get to do the work, I am way out my league to tamper with this stuff. Done right its not going void insurance???
:) Yes I have probably read the same white papers too but we are not dealing with industrial parks and the like with different requirements for grounding for high voltage 3 phase arrangements etc. Due to the relatively low price of a ground spike I still advocate banging another couple in and bonding them together as silica (sand) foundations that most builders like using to place house 'pad's onto' present a high resistance to ground and fail to provide a good earth ground (IMV) As long as you do not create a 'super low resistance' where other houses in the street will flow earth currents to instead of their own system earth then you should be OK. A bit of research into technical grounds (which Zen has obviously already done) and recording studio grounds will pay off handsomely in lower background noise and enhanced space in your audio listening pleasure or of course you could invest in an all DC power source for your listening kit but that's expensive. A few submarine batteries and a shed to keep them in would overcome the power struggle which every day is getting worse and worse. :-X :'(
V ???
This time of year the ground is getting drier :'( so time to enhance your earthing situation.
V ;D
FWIW, it's illegal to mess with your ground and in 99% of cases won't give any improvement, ie; putting
in additional ground stakes.
I have read a few good white papers on the subject by companies that deal explicitly in power and grounding.
The bottom line is that to gain any meaningful lowering of impedance to ground - which is what you are trying
to do, the ground stake has to be >20 feet deep and the hole filled with specially treated 'aggregate'.
There are cases where these companies install additional (approved) grounding to large buildings in lightning prone areas. The result
that works is often a matrix of 30 to 40 feet deep ground rods, equally spaced right around the perimeter of the
building. This gives you an idea of what it takes.
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This thread is very informative, lots I don't know..... thanks for sharing... :)
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:) Well yes the average sparky as you mention is going to have a copy of the rule book which he /she read whilst doing their apprenticeship and now fades into a - well it's an earth spike mate, init. what der yer mean you want me to measure the resistance mate, you must be joking mate, na no need mate etc etc etc. A lot of low current consumption kit is designed without any earth connections.................................tuners, cassette decks etc BUT power amps inveareably have an earth due to the additional current draw.
Ben Duncan (a bit of a local hero of mine) has written many technical articles for famous music magazines and has been directly involved in studio's and equipment manufacture. He has categorized noise on the mains to the following:
1. Hiss
2. Hum
3. Buzz
4. Crackers
5. Bangs and pops
6. Squeaks, farts and squeals
7. Crosstalk
8. Radio Separation (RFI)
As you can see these are all results of systems being exposed to various disturbances, I like the fart noise descriptor but know exactly what this is. He goes on to describe studio mains feeds and their additional complexity. He also mentions it is better to try and suppress any noise at source rather than try to filter it out later; this means 'snubbers across the mains switch etc' which is basically a capacitor and resistor across the contacts of the switch creating the noise or a delta type arrangement with additional inductors. Of course lots of domestic electrical devices all contribute to the hash we hear through our audio replay systems, things like vacuum cleaners, microwave ovens, damn mobile phones, fridges / freezers AC units etc all generate noise on the mains. So the first line of defence is to kill the interference at source, thereafter a separate distribution unit of the dedicated audio feed with its own RCCD's and 60amp ring mains protected with 30amp in line RCCD's is a must. If you can afford it then my earlier recommendation of Oyaide cables beat most others for the ring cable. Keeping the source resistance of your mains feed to <0.002 ohms (which is a typical impedance) for decent cable(60Amp) and the resistance of your dedicated ring to <0.02 ohms will bring -22dB of incoming interference residual suppression compared to the main house ring main.
When balanced mains feed transformers are used (plate and frame only please - no cheap torrodials)you should be able to clearly hear the lower noise floor and space around each note. Think 5KVa as a starting point. Music is just chopped up AC regurgitated via our systems, crap in = crap out.
V
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Voiding insurance :'( - no as long as there remains an earth. Creating a separate distribution point for the audio system is a safety enhancer as the more ways you spilt a system down from a mains distribution point the better chance of containing any fault condition. :) You can also go for enhanced 15mA RCCD's as opposed to the normal 30mA (this is the medical option). Ask Zen.
Balanced isolation transformers mounted in the garage is also going to enhance personnel safety. I would go for lightening protection on the upstream side of the mains supply at the same time. If you are not in a street with rows and rows of other houses then I'd also go for an enhanced earth system, this all increases safety. You'll need screened cables to avoid RFI including the earth wire!
Just remember there are numerous levels of quality of hardware for household mains wire / receptacles / breakers / distro boards and sparkies also vary in their abilities, willingness and knowledge to achieve the desired end result which is 240 volts largely free of crud and contaminants from within and outside your home.
Check out: Audio Quality Investigations Vol 1. by Ben Duncan available from Audio Synthesis Nottingham, England 1993. It's an eye opener for the uninitiated.
V :-*
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More info here:
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf
http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/PowerPaper.pdf
http://www.toruspower.com/ manufacturer of various mains devices
\V
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Cost are reasonable and in HiFi terms damn right cheap, the sparky is going to charge around 500 -750 dollars to re run cables if you can feed them through the loft space, chasing out walls will increase this substantially as it involves re plastering hence my reasoning that do it right the first time, cavity walls are favorite, get your 'snake out guys'! Getting the separate distribution box installed should be included except for the cost of the box and new breakers. Decent mains cable (not the twin and earth crap) is going to be 100 bucks or so a metre but once you have experienced what they actually do there is no going back. Snubbers are real cheap or you could go the way the Russ Andrews does (UK) and buy the plug in variety which gets inserted in the same outlet as the noisy fridge etc. :(
When it comes to further lightening protection and surge protection, well these do cost a fair bit, maybe 2K or so but they should protect the whole mains input side; just work out all those other electrical devices in the house with sensitive control circuitry just waiting to get zapped :-X by the spikes entering your home via the noisy, polluted feed we all get ripped off for each pay cycle. >:( There are only so many spikes that the tiny VDR's can absorb and still allow through in your average plug top type variety or mains multiple outlets despite all the crap they claim on the advertising material. You need to go industrial to get anything worth while and the VDR elements require changing every few years as they eventually break down. I can attest through monitoring that my home was subject to wild changes in voltage from 186 volts to 270 volts which of course is outwith the regulations of the supply company, but they don't give a crap as long as you continue to fund their holiday apartments and yachts. :-X Since another HT line was run along the district these figures have improved remarkably but we still get the spikes for free and general noise!
Filtering in the form of balanced isolation transformers will cost > 1.2K$ a throw and judging by the size and complexity of your music replay system you'd need several. I would also suggest reading up on ferroresonant filtration unless you want to got the PS audio route of power regeneration.
I can still remember taking an early prototype Bravura to an audio show and the look of the distributors face when we inserted it, priceless! ( the Bravura is a mains filtration and isolation device of low power and included ferroresonant elements ;))
BY addressing the above points you will enhance the homes safety from electrical fires and fault conditions and at the same time achieve a lower noise floor and more relaxed sounds from your music replay system. :D Get a sympathetic Sparky who is at least 50 years old and you should realise a safer cleaner mains feed to your home. Earthing I will agree to disagree with Zen, here more is better and unless you are talking major structures with much steel work and 3 phase high power it is totally unnecessary to dig 20 foot holes. IMV which I am happy to be corrected on a lattice work of copper bars / rods / sheet buried > a meter beneath the ground will decrease the resistance to earth in good soil or if you have a sand pad around your home then it will need to be deeper;you can add soil wetting agents (same as gardening variety- or if you want to pay through the nose an earth enhancement product). Simply having a single earth spike does not cut it in chez V, but hey it meets local codes when it's just been watered for the earth resistance test done during build / final test so it's got to be good hasn't it! ???
V
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Yes, it should be a nudge in the right direction, first make a mechanical joint and the flow some solder to make a gas tight seal; all after cleaning the connections first! ;)
You may think about installing better quality mains outlets as the standard ones are just plain bad; they are noise generators through naff contacts. A good system will show this up fairly clearly. As most people do not use electric cookers with thier huge current demands you might place the audio feed ahead on the distribution unit making it first dibs on what ever your power company has deemed OK at your distro. This time of year the ground is getting drier :'( so time to enhance your earthing situation.
V ;D
Thanks Steve.
When you refer to installing quality mains outlets, which would you suggest that are available locally?
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Filtering in the form of balanced isolation transformers will cost > 1.2K$ a throw and judging by the size and complexity of your music replay system you'd need several. I would also suggest reading up on ferroresonant filtration unless you want to got the PS audio route of power regeneration.
I can still remember taking an early prototype Bravura to an audio show and the look of the distributors face when we inserted it, priceless! ( the Bravura is a mains filtration and isolation device of low power and included ferroresonant elements ;))
Vita - what is this Bravura device and what is in it? Do you have any links, data etc?
BY addressing the above points you will enhance the homes safety from electrical fires and fault conditions and at the same time achieve a lower noise floor and more relaxed sounds from your music replay system. :D Get a sympathetic Sparky who is at least 50 years old and you should realise a safer cleaner mains feed to your home. Earthing I will agree to disagree with Zen, here more is better and unless you are talking major structures with much steel work and 3 phase high power it is totally unnecessary to dig 20 foot holes.
There is a very good (and simple) reason why adding extra grounding is basically illegal.
If you are advising people to do this type of practice on a public forum then I would suggest you also explain the potential pitfalls - and how to avoid them,
since you are the 'expert' here.
FWIW, I learned a lot of my transformer / power knowledge actually working at a transformer manufacturer years ago. The same company that supplies traffos for Killer DACs;
was started / used to be owned by a very smart German man who taught me a lot of things power related.
cheers
Z
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Hi Zen
Can you post a link to someone that sells these that youd think would be up to the mark??
As a separate note, Vita mentioned Ferro resonant transformers (CVT / constant voltage transformer).
I have not tried these yet but have spoken to someone that had very positive experience with them.
This is one thing I would like to try as they are fundamentally different from all other transformers / supplies in that
they virtually 'regenerate' the OP waveform through a tuned circuit. As such they need no RF filtering as virtually
nothing will make it through the transformer.
These are potentially the best solution but I don't have the time or money ATM to try one.
Downsides are: They are also extremely magnetically noisy so need to be away from your gear, they are
physically very large for a given VA, they can also be mechanically noisy.
Worth a try for someone.
Z
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G'day Zen, a magician never gives away their secrets. :-X A combination of elements were used, Isolation and ferroresonance selectively tuned so as not to be a current constrainer.
Like all forums and internet talk I would never lay claim to being an expert and can only guide people to what I have experienced in 40 years of audio passion.
If people wish to improve their mains feeds within their homes then they clearly should use an approved electrician to do so, this way they will not infringe any dafty local bylaws which were probably copied from some one elses where conditions are considerably different.
When you look at some of the adult sized mains cables plugged into some feeble noise generator of a socket and the 20 year old wiring leading back to a dusty box with ELCB's or fuses green and aged it comes as no surprise that this situation can be improved. Those with monster Krells will attest to the requirement for a better mains feed pays dividends, less obvious with more run of the mill gear.
I posted reference to Ben Duncans articles and he is regarded as 'expert' in that he is a leading industry light when it comes to electrical distribution within studio and live sound. For expert advice read his articles, I did many years ago.
Have you managed to overcome the issues surrounding the implementation of Zen clocks yet? MY CD94 is still panting!
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G'day Zen, a magician never gives away their secrets. :-X A combination of elements were used, Isolation and ferroresonance selectively tuned so as not to be a current constrainer.
Magician being operative word? :D
Like all forums and internet talk I would never lay claim to being an expert and can only guide people to what I have experienced in 40 years of audio passion.
If people wish to improve their mains feeds within their homes then they clearly should use an approved electrician to do so, this way they will not infringe any dafty local bylaws which were probably copied from some one elses where conditions are considerably different.
Most of the laws are for peoples safety.
The reason that it is illegal to implement extra grounding rods is that they can impair the correct function of a homes RCD earth leakage current safety breakers unless
done correctly.
If you are going to make recommendations on changing peoples grounding then you should also make them aware of a) Potential legal issues b) potential safety issues.
Obviously it is their choice but this is a public forum so we must be careful what we recommend to people.
WRT the actual benefit of adding those grounding rods and an explanation of how it all works, I'll have to get to that later too busy atm. However once you properly understand how it all actually works you will be less inclined to throw huge amounts of money at various hi end power tom foolery and start looking at just good equipment design / interconnectivity solutions as your first consideration.
Z
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Yes agree, I have been busy deleting lot's of spam emails lately!
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That's funny.... :P :P :P :P :P :P More like the nut crusher of an old mangle, where do these people get off?
V
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No use replying, it's an automated spambot, the curse of the internet I'm afraid... That's why so many sites these days make you write the distorted numbers/letters that are randomly generated into a box during registration..
You may need to update the forum software if that's not the case here, however that can be a drama in it's own right
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No use replying, it's an automated spambot, the curse of the internet I'm afraid... That's why so many sites these days make you write the distorted numbers/letters that are randomly generated into a box during registration..
You may need to update the forum software if that's not the case here, however that can be a drama in it's own right
Or ask one of a range of nerdy forum specific questions like 'who manufactured the famous full range driver ending with 80'
:) :)
Z
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No use replying, it's an automated spambot, the curse of the internet I'm afraid... That's why so many sites these days make you write the distorted numbers/letters that are randomly generated into a box during registration..
You may need to update the forum software if that's not the case here, however that can be a drama in it's own right
Yeah I know the replies go nowhere....but I just can't help it.