The KillerDAC Audio forum
Tech Corner => Resistors => Topic started by: stevenvalve on December 26, 2013, 07:12:29 PM
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I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest. http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
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Resistors I consistently use, more later
Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. Clean clear super resolution very good timbre, not quite as natural as the Allen Bradleys, but they are the best.
Allen Bradleys 2 watt. No super resolution here, but these are super natural and rich, They can be little thick and fat with a chocolate coloration until at least a week of running in, then superb.
Audionote tantalum resistors. Old version, Very good, but a little white or grey, rising top end, a little bleached of timbre. But still pretty good.
Riken, These are a carbon film, They sound sweet, and pretty, but also very dark, nice black background. Only for digital, that's where I use them. Not a very even handed resistor, Not recommended
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For those who can't clearly see the new AN tantalum non magnetic resistors they are in red circle.
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Some info about Allen Bradley resistors (thanks to Ozcal for the tip on SNA):
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/allen_bradley_resistors.html
Allen Bradley RESISTORS special treatment method
As stated Allen Bradley resistors are carbon composite, being made of an organic material they do have the tendency to absorb water from the atmosphere. This absorption can increase the actual resistance of the component, hence the slightly higher than normal tolerance published on this page. To fix this simply remove the water from the component and seal it. The best method is to place the resistor/s on a baking tray set, your oven to 80 degrees centigrade and leave in the oven for 8 hours. The secret is to remove the mositure slowly if you rush it it will become noisy in circuit. Once cooked seal the body of the component in Shellack (preferably the flakes) to stock any further water absorption. At the end of this procedure you will have a much lower noise, more closely tolerance resistors. Special thanks to Colin Cornish for this excellent tip.
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I wonder if that procedure leans them out?
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I wonder if that procedure leans them out?
Probably.
Both Carb Comp R's and old Polyester F/F Caps (Mullard etc) used in all this old gear is either hygroscopic or just affected by
moisture over time as it gets in where leads protrude.
As a general rule I use CC resistors for low values below say 1k and generally stay away from them for values >10k or so for
reasons of noise. Carbon Comp resistors are very noisy compared to other types however you have to understand that the
noise of a resistor is proportional to it's value. Not so well understood by average tweaker. IOW, a 10R resistor makes virtually immeasurable
noise, 10 meg resistor makes tons.
Specifically, a 400 ohm R has 2 x noise of 100R, 1600R has 2 x noise of 400R....etc so 400k has 64 x noise of 100R.
So especially in low level or first stages, a high value resistor is better served with a Tantalum type. Better stability, low noise,
lower drift and I think in these more sensitive stages CC R's colour is more likely not the go. Add the chocolate later :) keep things
clean up front!
You know many old noisy Marshall guitar amps (and other valve amps) have highish value (68k) carb comp R's right at the input and you can more than 1/2 the noise by
swapping one for 1k R. Most people are looking at the first tube trying to find low noise 12ax7 but the game is over before signal
gets to tube - the input R's are the culprit!
There you go - that's called Johnson Noise! :)
Z
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I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest. http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
Well I ran them for 3 days till I could stand them no more. They share a common trait with there cheaper older model resistor, Harmonic bleaching. There is a sameness, slight whiteness to the timbre. Two different Singers one for each channel, no longer sounded as individuals but had similar character, Still good, But. The background was no longer black. They are musical, nice in every HI FI way, very good indeed, but they are not Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. When I put just my original Shinkoh 1 watt tantalum resistors back in that position and then started the system, I had a heart attack and died. More later.
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Well is a resistor that complicated, Why don't they (Audionote) strip one down (Shinkoh) and reverse engineer it. Well that's obvious, they must have already, so why aren't they as good. They have had 2 goes at the cherry, Is the tantalum carbon they use just not the same formula as the Shinkoh. Zen what is the answer.
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I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest. http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
Well I ran them for 3 days till I could stand them no more. They share a common trait with there cheaper older model resistor, Harmonic bleaching. There is a sameness, slight whiteness to the timbre. Two different Singers one for each channel, no longer sounded as individuals but had similar character, Still good, But. The background was no longer black. They are musical, nice in every HI FI way, very good indeed, but they are not Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. When I put just my original Shinkoh 1 watt tantalum resistors back in that position and then started the system, I had a heart attack and died. More later.
Very disappointing when things go this far backwards.
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They are still very good resistors and better than the Shinkoh tantalum resistors in many ways, buy not in the ways that matter to me. The timbrel character is a number one important priority to me. Its amazing that in a system, changing 2 resistors in an amp can ultimately make such a dramatic difference. But as we all know here, it just does.
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So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.
Peter
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Hi Peter,
From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.
Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.
Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)
Cheers,
William
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Hi Peter,
From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.
Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.
Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)
Cheers,
William
I think the Z foil are stripped (no package) bulk foil R's.
Vishay bulk foil are probably the cleanest / most transparent resistor ever made but many find them lean / thin sounding.
They are also very expensive.
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Hi Peter,
From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.
Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.
Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)
Cheers,
William
Right position I would say is in feedback loops but power handling is always an issue with the bulk foils.
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So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.
Peter
I don't like to recommend anything involving audio parts, because they is no guarantee regarding synergy. I am not a fan of any resistor unless its some form of carbon, First tantalum carbon is in my opinion the material the use for majority of spots, followed by (in a few places for tuning) the rest. like 2 watt Allen Bradley so natural and rich, audio note, new audio note, whatever works. I like resistors that are the Ying and Yang and having these opposed sounds is nice for tuning. Its all a blend, with the wire you use. caps, everything, its so complicated.
I think the Z foil are stripped (no package) bulk foil R's.
Vishay bulk foil are probably the cleanest / most transparent resistor ever made but many find them lean / thin sounding.
I agree with ZENELECTRO on this. Not for me, but I have no doubt they will work well in some places .
Genially I keep away from all this stuff, don't like there clean sterile cardboard nature. The thing to grasp (for upgrading) most audio parts out there are ordinary, basically marketing bullsh!t. measures great but not really listened too.
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Some info about Allen Bradley resistors (thanks to Ozcal for the tip on SNA):
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/allen_bradley_resistors.html
I have been doing a bit of research of late on AB resistor types, and looks like the baking procedure was actually mentioned in the old datasheets, but they recommended vastly longer times than 8 hours -- up to 120/130 hours for 1W/2W types !!!...
(http://i62.tinypic.com/33w7cdg.png)
edit: also quite interesting is the test voltage/bias for higher values...
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Now that is really interesting, I will read this intently. There is more to a resistor than meets the eye.
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I have been doing a bit of research of late on AB resistor types, and looks like the baking procedure was actually mentioned in the old datasheets, but they recommended vastly longer times than 8 hours -- up to 120/130 hours for 1W/2W types !!!...
(http://i62.tinypic.com/33w7cdg.png)
edit: also quite interesting is the test voltage/bias for higher values...
Very good finding omodo! Thanks for that :)
I have been happy so far with the AB without any baking but it is certainly interesting to try the procedure and make a comparison between non-baked vs baked. I'll post a report if I decide to go ahead with the procedure.
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Great post omodo. Thanks for that - very informative!
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So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.
Peter
The thing is with the 2 Watt Allen Bradleys, every time I buy say 270Rs when I get them here, they nearly always read about 280R- 295R, Yet the colour code is 270R. I know there is a tolerance of 10 percent on domestic and 5 percent and on the military resistors. but both are consistently high, plus or minus to me means if you have 10 new Allen Bradley resistors, on average 5 will read above or on 270R, and 5 will read below or on 270R, or do they mean 10 percent either way . Well now we probably know why they are high.
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Makes me wonder if they'll still have that rich character after they have been baked? Only 1 way to find out.
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The thing is with the 2 Watt Allen Bradleys, every time I buy say 270Rs when I get them here, they nearly always read about 280R- 295R, Yet the colour code is 270R. I know there is a tolerance of 10 percent on domestic and 5 percent and on the military resistors. but both are consistently high, plus or minus to me means if you have 10 new Allen Bradley resistors, on average 5 will read above or on 270R, and 5 will read below or on 270R, or do they mean 10 percent either way . Well now we probably know why they are high.
Hi Steve, next time when you buy AB resistors from bigsmythe74 on eBay, tell him to ensure the resistors are within their spec. I did this last time I bought some AB off him and I got pretty good ABs and they're not very far off, all within 5% range. Not sure if you can ask him to get them matched but we can certainly return the resistors if they're too far off from the nominal value (standard practice on eBay), I'm sure bigsmythe74 aware about this too.
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The thing is with the 2 Watt Allen Bradleys, every time I buy say 270Rs when I get them here, they nearly always read about 280R- 295R, Yet the colour code is 270R. I know there is a tolerance of 10 percent on domestic and 5 percent and on the military resistors. but both are consistently high, plus or minus to me means if you have 10 new Allen Bradley resistors, on average 5 will read above or on 270R, and 5 will read below or on 270R, or do they mean 10 percent either way . Well now we probably know why they are high.
Steve, you need a "valve" volt meter, those transistors can not be trusted. :D
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As everyone knows, shinkoh resistors are getting hard to obtain in many values, especially the 2-watters. So, assuming you want a tantalum film and given the choice of a 2W audionote or a 1W shinkoh in a given value, what would you go for?
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As everyone knows, shinkoh resistors are getting hard to obtain in many values, especially the 2-watters. So, assuming you want a tantalum film and given the choice of a 2W audionote or a 1W shinkoh in a given value, what would you go for?
I tried the 2 watt audio notes, new and old, in the same spot, and the 1W shinkoh was still better, but in another spot, it may be a different story.
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Thanks Steven. I guess it's a case of splash the doe and get a variety to experiment. Dont s'pose ya know of a supplier with 10K 2W shinkohs; the usual suspects only have 1W ones. I wouldn't blame you for keeping that info to yourself though.
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Well, that is the problem, I can only get the 1 watt 10K shinkoh, as well. I use them in the leak, but I did get some 9.1K 2W shinkoh for my main amps, and I use them in a 10K spot, they worked perfectly. Get them instead, if its OK via your circuit. You can also get 2 /20K 1 watt shinkoh and run them parallel to get 10K, but they may not sound better that 1 /10K shinkoh. There are thin and thicker lead-out wires available on these 1 watt shinkoh's. Try to get the thicker ones. But they seem to have have run out, and most come with the thin leads. The 2 watt all have these thicker leads.
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I cannot stress enough, the shinkoh 2 watt resistors are just brilliant, if there is an equal or better all round modern resistor, where is it, I hope there is, but do we buy 100 different varieties just to find out, how expensive will what be. I usually use the shinkoh 2 watt or 1 watt in just the critical single path, if possible. If you can't get the 2 watt, 1 watt is still better than any other resistor I know.
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Hi Steven, you using Shinkoh or Allen Bradley for the IV of your dac?
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Hi Steven, you using Shinkoh or Allen Bradley for the IV of your dac?
Unfortunately audio manufactures have in the past, and even now, are trying to get information about what is in and how the DAC works. One in particular has already Stoll my tube complement. The funny thing is that any other resistor brand will not sound right at the value I use in the IV stage, I will pm you with the right one.
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If you can't get the 2 watt, 1 watt is still better than any other resistor I know.
Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
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Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
I have been thinking about these after you mentioned them. I have not heard them before, I am hot on there trail. looking them up via the net as I type.
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Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
Nice, I have tried many that looked very similar, but as you know that means, nothing. Are they neutral. Neutral is handy, but in the finally tunning process, flavours are also important. I guess we need to ask do we use only one resistor type, in any of our stuff, for me not really. Do you have any leftover Charcroft foils I can try.
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Do you have any leftover Charcroft foils I can try.
Nope, but I have 88 of them coming in for a ladder attenuator. Happy to grab a few extra spares if you let me know what you want to play with.
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88, now you are serious, probably a good choice for a ladder attenuator, Clean is what is needed. On the Quad 57 system. My elna ladder attenuator has dale resistors, Don't really know how good they are, they where on it when I brought it.
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(http://i58.tinypic.com/ndrkhs.jpg)
Choose your poison.
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Ha, There is no poison, but there is cream and honey. 2 watt Shinkoh and 2 watt Allen Bradley. As Humphrey Bogart said at the end of that great movie... The Maltese Falcon.... That's the stuff dreams are made of.
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haha!
I am trying to decide which I prefer to use in the IV stage. Both have hundreds of hours on them. The ABs do the mids and highs more gentle and decliate. Flows smoother. Easier to listen to, especially at full scale volumes when I'm really getting into a piece. But I found the bass a bit loose and not as defined as the Shinkohs. The shinnies had a deeper, tighter, more articulate bass to lower mid bass. But then the mids and highs are a lttle crisp in comparison. It doesn't help as I am using a BMS 4540ND compression driver which uses a neodymium magnet from 4khz upwards. If it was with the GOTO midhigh and tweeters, would probably balance out as they have a 'soft' sonic character.
I think I'll stick with the Skinkohs for now, as I really am a 'bass man' and that is the aspect I am most picky about on my setup.
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An audiophiles listening prioritys are often interesting, younger means bass, older means midrange splendour, very old means turning it up real loud.
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Call me an old manchild.
I like bass and I like it loud! 8)
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Call me an old manchild.
I like bass and I like it loud! 8)
Can't agree more Tuyen! 8)
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haha!
I am trying to decide which I prefer to use in the IV stage. Both have hundreds of hours on them. The ABs do the mids and highs more gentle and decliate. Flows smoother. Easier to listen to, especially at full scale volumes when I'm really getting into a piece. But I found the bass a bit loose and not as defined as the Shinkohs. The shinnies had a deeper, tighter, more articulate bass to lower mid bass. But then the mids and highs are a lttle crisp in comparison. It doesn't help as I am using a BMS 4540ND compression driver which uses a neodymium magnet from 4khz upwards. If it was with the GOTO midhigh and tweeters, would probably balance out as they have a 'soft' sonic character.
I think I'll stick with the Skinkohs for now, as I really am a 'bass man' and that is the aspect I am most picky about on my setup.
I like the resolution of the Shinkohs. Simply the best!
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Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
Did anyone try the Charcroft foils... thanks :)
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Did anyone try the Charcroft foils... thanks :)
Yes the only problem is they are low wattage and too many in a circuit and they can create problems.Other wise very nice resistors.........................
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Yes the only problem is they are low wattage and too many in a circuit and they can create problems.Other wise very nice resistors.........................
Hi kajak12, can you elaborate on "very nice resistors" and where are can they be obtained from... thanks :)
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Hi kajak12, can you elaborate on "very nice resistors" and where are can they be obtained from... thanks :)
Clean and clear too many and you loose timbre heart and soul on a given system(they are like a nice woman With make up on in a semi lit room take her to a room with too much light and she starts looking like a barbie doll (artificial)
parts connexion hifi collective google them
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ok, thanks :)
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Ping. Allen Bradley carbon, Shinkoh Tantalum, Audio note Tantalum, Always use 2 Watt, stick with Carbon and Tantalum carbon type Resistors.
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Hi stevenvalve, what about the old Phillips 2watt carbon resistors... thanks ;)
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Hi PingPing,
They're crap. Give them to me :P
Cheers,
Wil
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Hi stevenvalve, what about the old Phillips 2watt carbon resistors... thanks ;)
Some are very good, are they reddish in colour, do you have a picture.
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Hi stevenvalve, :o , I went to look for my stash of them (that I put in a safe place sometime ago!!!) and I can't find them... breath deep :o I will let you know when I find them...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnezplX1zlc
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Could you guys hear a difference between the 3 options? Which option brought out the most emotion from the music?
A = basic wirewound resistor = $2
B = duelund silver carbon CAST resistor = $50
C = autoformer attenuator = $500+ ?
I think I heard a little bit more clarity/resolution with system C? Not much difference between A and B. Then again, am listening through youtube compressed audio, USB sound blaster sound card and basic headphones.
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:) 8)
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Its a pitty it was not done blind but despite streaming over the net the differences between the standard cement covered wire wound and the Dueland was there to hear. IMV there was more texture to the notes with B and less stridency. C was the best overall and made the violin much more listenable, so it should at probably 10 times the price, its only when you go back to A that you realise how much it mucks up the sound.
Thanks Mr. T, that was an interesting demo.
V
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Tuyen, yes I think the differences were quite obvious, even through youtube/headphones hence I found it interesting enough to post.
I preferred C, seemed more natural if not a touch attenuated compared to B, perhaps the inductance of the autoformer. Pity not much detail was given how the resistors were used, assuming as a divider or part of, nor if any compensation was added for the autoformer.
According to their blog they will be posting another video showing the differences between core types in the autoformer (orient hi-b, finemet, amorphous), that should be quite interesting...
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Agreed option C sounded best. Less congested. Quite possible regarding the inductance of the autoformer causing effect on crossover point. I have experienced this 'issue' from my very brief time playing with autoformers on horn tweeters. I wish Kenrick would have option D. No passive crossover components in the path between the amp and driver. Instead using an active circuit further upstream. Differences would certainly be interesting! ;D
What's funny is I can hear the differences more obvious through my crappy PC setup with headphones compared to 'tuned' main horn rig. ??? :-[ :'(
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Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much. My PC headphones reveal alot of warts, that I dont hear on any of my 3 speaker systems. I think (my) PC headphones can be a bit coarse and skewed towards the treble, they certainly lack midrange body that the Tannoys have in spades.
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88, now you are serious, probably a good choice for a ladder attenuator, Clean is what is needed. On the Quad 57 system. My elna ladder attenuator has dale resistors, Don't really know how good they are, they where on it when I brought it.
Attenuator complete ready for install;
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/skakavas/20140812_143413_zps924f6859.jpg?t=1407834743)
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Very nice job there! How many hours did you put in? :o
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Attenuator complete ready for install;
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/skakavas/20140812_143413_zps924f6859.jpg?t=1407834743)
I might have misted it, what brand of resistor are they, some kind of foil. I must say, it looks real good.
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I might have misted it, what brand of resistor are they, some kind of foil. I must say, it looks real good.
Charcroft foils Steve.
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I might have misted it, what brand of resistor are they, some kind of foil. I must say, it looks real good.
Great job i hope the colouration works well in your system......................
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Great job i hope the colouration works well in your system......................
Thanks Kajak; I guess when it comes to colouration, your experience is unparalleled. :)
Jokes aside, I have tried at least a half dozen other types of resistors in the signal path in this mix. The Charcrofts were easily superior to anything else I tried.
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Yes Charcrofts and Vishay VSRJ's bulk foils are exceptionally clean sounding with all the detail. The 'nude' one's perhaps even cleaner. Using them in feedback loops is great as they don't place to much signature on anything IMV. The biggest issue is their low power handling being typically 0.25 - 0.5w.
I bought a switched attenuator around 25 years ago when each resistor was around 30 dollars each(VSRJ's), ouch that hurt but it beat hands down the then popular Holco precision 1w 0.5% metal films!
There has been much talk about the best resistors and here it is hard to definitively say which is best as it depends entirely on where in a circuit they are placed. Here is where the 'art' in mixing and matching comes into effect.
The switched attenuator, is it a series unit where the sound passes through each additive resistor or one where there is a single value to earth with a single resistor in the signal path? The latter is much better IMV.
V
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The switched attenuator, is it a series unit where the sound passes through each additive resistor or one where there is a single value to earth with a single resistor in the signal path? The latter is much better IMV.
V
It is a ladder switch, so only one Rx and one Ry value per position.
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That's the best solution then for resistors. ;D What overall impedance is it? 47k, 100k, 250k? This is the final arbiter as getting this match incorrect will effect the overall result.
V
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100k impedance.
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With 2w Shinkoh's almost a distant memory and now assigned to the designation or "Rocking Horse Sh1t" are we any closer to finding a suitable replacement? AB's are great but not up to the Shinkoh's.
Any further input would be most welcome as I am collecting the goods to build my very own Killer 50 amp.
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The new(ish) range from Audio Note UK of 1 and 2 watt non magnetic resistors sounds OK to me. They have a real quality feel to them too with top quality lead in wires. They look fab as well. The Non magnetic part is important to avoid smear through magnetics. I have several fitted to my preamp and have no urge to remove them. Hope this helps. I buy mine through the HiFi collective back in the UK, they are reliable and reasonably quick too.
Oh and if you have deep pockets you could try their same range in Silver lead outs.
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I have used hi fi collective they provide good service.
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The new(ish) range from Audio Note UK of 1 and 2 watt non magnetic resistors sounds OK to me. They have a real quality feel to them too with top quality lead in wires. They look fab as well. The Non magnetic part is important to avoid smear through magnetics. I have several fitted to my preamp and have no urge to remove them. Hope this helps. I buy mine through the HiFi collective back in the UK, they are reliable and reasonably quick too.
Oh and if you have deep pockets you could try their same range in Silver lead outs.
I have tried these but for me they where not as good as the Shinkoh's, so system dependant.
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How long did you have them in circuit Steve? Did you use the one watt or two watt versions.? I was quite surprised at their weight and quality feel compared to the usual Allen Bradleys. Shinkoh's are not always available more the shame. I'd be interested in what others think too.
Maybe you can come up with a where best to use the various types to add weight or colour or vibrancy etc. :) :) :) :) :)
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How long did you have them in circuit Steve? Did you use the one watt or two watt versions.? I was quite surprised at their weight and quality feel compared to the usual Allen Bradleys. Shinkoh's are not always available more the shame. I'd be interested in what others think too.
Maybe you can come up with a where best to use the various types to add weight or colour or vibrancy etc. :) :) :) :) :)
To be fair to the 2 watt audionote resistors, my system was tuned for the shinkoh and when i replaced a 1 watt shinkoh for the 2 watt audionote it changed the balance so much so i only ran the audionote for an hour.
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Just checked and the shinko resistors are cheaper by a fair bit 8 UKP each compared to 13.75 UKP for the audio note non magnetic 2 watters. The AN tantalum with the silver leads are a fair bit more at 32.35 UKP each so it gets expensive pretty quickly.
I was hoping that some of our readers could chip in with long term experiences using the Audio Note resistors or any other 2 w types and where in the circuit they found they worked best. I would think 40 hours running time would settle them in enough.
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Whilst it's all well to compare the price of 2 watt Shinkoh's to AN, have you actually looked at the values available and were the ones for 8 Pounds usable in any circuits you want to use them in. The remaining stock are all values rarely used hence the quantity available, all the commonly used values show zero stock. Shinkoh haven't been manufactured for at least 10 years now if not longer.
As for run in time on AN resistors, they don't even begin to sound the way they should until at least 80 hours run time. The system I used at the recent show in Sydney had at least 60 of the silver resistors in circuit both in the amp and cd player and the minimum run time was 150 hours for those.
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Whilst it's all well to compare the price of 2 watt Shinkoh's to AN, have you actually looked at the values available and were the ones for 8 Pounds usable in any circuits you want to use them in. The remaining stock are all values rarely used hence the quantity available, all the commonly used values show zero stock. Shinkoh haven't been manufactured for at least 10 years now if not longer.
As for run in time on AN resistors, they don't even begin to sound the way they should until at least 80 hours run time. The system I used at the recent show in Sydney had at least 60 of the silver resistors in circuit both in the amp and cd player and the minimum run time was 150 hours for those.
I must say the Audionote system (to my ears) was the best sound at the Sydney HiFi show, but i did not listen to every room. I probably need to run the Audionote resistors in for a lot longer, and i may do that. Guru's sound was very good. As for the price of these resistors, they are expensive, but how much do we spend on our music systems.
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... As for run in time on AN resistors, they don't even begin to sound the way they should until at least 80 hours run time. The system I used at the recent show in Sydney had at least 60 of the silver resistors in circuit both in the amp and cd player and the minimum run time was 150 hours for those.
that sounds very reasonable to me. One hour is nowhere near enough time (not even close and not even in cooee) for burnin (nor settling) except perhaps for Jaycar resistors and even then perhaps not.
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... Sydney HiFi show,
Does SNA run the Sydney HiFi show or the Melbourne HiFi show?
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Does SNA run the Sydney HiFi show or the Melbourne HiFi show?
SNA did run one of the two Melbourne HiFi shows last year, but not Sydney.
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This is an interesting post on resistors, cut and pasted from https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/top-resistors?sort_order=desc
I have tried several resistors, some of them are best sounding for me and most of them sounds different if you change the dirrection on which you'll start the input signal.
Here's the result: (caution: quite long) :) and sorry if my english not really good
AUDIO RESISTOR COMPARISON SOUND AND DIRECTION TEST
TAKMAN REX – CARBON COMPOSITE
>>> Bit edgy and hard sound and less detail, less bold than Riken RN std in the same direction but more organized
<<< Sweeter, more detailed, more musical, more airy and bit more warm, tone more balanced and organized
DALE RN60 METAL FILM – MIL SPEC
>>> Quite neutral, detailed high and crisp, more bold sound than takman (or more like direct cable I guest), not as sweet as Takman but less edgy and breathe music more –strong bass also + bit hard if compare to direct straight wire (less liquid)
<<< Bit sweeter but less bold, airy too, clearer high bit, and more musical a bit, still have strong bass but little lean
RIKEN RMG – CARBON (I like this resistor when it compare to almost all this reviewed resistor except TX2575)
>>> Sweet and spacious sound, detailed and airy, good bass and warm mid – bit laidback compare to shinkoh
<<< As mentioned above but bit more musical, more breathe, but bit less definition and bit less dynamic
AUDIONOTE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet and musical, not as much air as Takman (in reverse direction), good bass – felt bit tubelike sound and midrange domination
<<< As mentioned above but bit less bass leading edge (I need more test on this)
RIKEN RN STANDARD (BROWN COATING AND NO GOLD PLATED)
>>> Bit sharp high, bit edgy / hard, but good definition
<<< Warmer sound and bit woolly bass, more musical and rich, staging more wider and deeper (also compare to Takman) – bit midrange domination
SHINKOH JAPANESSE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet, detailed and airy and have big dimension in sound stage, quite neutral sound and draw me to music deeper (I feel overdominate in midrange compare to Riken or other neutral sounding resistor and then I decided to remove it and substitute with neutral sounding resistor) + slightly thinner sound compare to straight wire but calm presentation and leaner bass.
<<< As mentionded above but bit warmer sound (coloration I think) and bit overdetail high (edgier)
MILLS WIREWOUND 5 WATT
>>> Neutral sound, airy and dynamic sound, but not as sweet as tants, leading edge also in good side
<<< Less definition a bit but seems sweeter a bit / warmer (need more test)
KIWAME CARBON 2 WATT
>>> Bit noisy and high more apparent, other are quite neutral (need more test)
<<< Bit sweet and detailed also more airy (need more test)
KOA METAL FILM
>>> Sound more like Dale RN60, detailed and airy, bit sweet also
<<< As mentioned above but less bass, bit bright side but not sharp (need more test)
VISHAY NAKED Z-FOIL TX2575 or Z201
>>> This is what I say about, almost perfect resistor, the sound is all you wish your audio equipments sounds, imidiate, harmonic detail, open, detail but not sharp high, great bass, musical, neutral and smooth mid but not overly sweet, great dynamic, clean sound and fast – Very Recommended for upgrading – the effect almost like you change standard capacitor with much better one. My only complain is it added bit bass to male and female vocal, makes it bit thick. I never try other direction since it says no direction because of laser etched foil technology is almos equal on both side.
AMTRANS AMRG 2W CARBON RESISTOR
>>> Compare to riken RMG – this resistor bit more open and more neutral but less lusher. Better in music description and more musical compare to dale metal film. For musical taste I like riken than this amtrans.
<<< Less neutral and less lusher (bit forward)
Any killer dac thoughts IRTT???
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Does SNA run the Sydney HiFi show or the Melbourne HiFi show?
SNA will run anything just for $$$$$ just read the reviews ;D
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Well money is the evil driver behind most things. I am just glad that they sponsor such an event, having a show is better than no show surely?
Reviews, well you have to read between the lines a little at times, but it does fuel our dreams and I'd much rather have SNA than not. Reading reviews for the past 35 odd years you get a feel for what is and is not being said. Usually the last line tells all as in the reviewer bought the sample!
SNA sow's a lot of seeds, but for dedicated types, they always seek out alternative posts and outlets to satisfy their quest IMV.
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the reviewer bought the sample!
The quote I always look for in the first place before I start reading the whole review.
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SNA seems quite bad to me and not good at all and you are probably right regarding the $$$$$
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This is an interesting post on resistors, cut and pasted from https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/top-resistors?sort_order=desc
I have tried several resistors, some of them are best sounding for me and most of them sounds different if you change the dirrection on which you'll start the input signal.
Here's the result: (caution: quite long) :) and sorry if my english not really good
AUDIO RESISTOR COMPARISON SOUND AND DIRECTION TEST
TAKMAN REX – CARBON COMPOSITE
>>> Bit edgy and hard sound and less detail, less bold than Riken RN std in the same direction but more organized
<<< Sweeter, more detailed, more musical, more airy and bit more warm, tone more balanced and organized
DALE RN60 METAL FILM – MIL SPEC
>>> Quite neutral, detailed high and crisp, more bold sound than takman (or more like direct cable I guest), not as sweet as Takman but less edgy and breathe music more –strong bass also + bit hard if compare to direct straight wire (less liquid)
<<< Bit sweeter but less bold, airy too, clearer high bit, and more musical a bit, still have strong bass but little lean
RIKEN RMG – CARBON (I like this resistor when it compare to almost all this reviewed resistor except TX2575)
>>> Sweet and spacious sound, detailed and airy, good bass and warm mid – bit laidback compare to shinkoh
<<< As mentioned above but bit more musical, more breathe, but bit less definition and bit less dynamic
AUDIONOTE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet and musical, not as much air as Takman (in reverse direction), good bass – felt bit tubelike sound and midrange domination
<<< As mentioned above but bit less bass leading edge (I need more test on this)
RIKEN RN STANDARD (BROWN COATING AND NO GOLD PLATED)
>>> Bit sharp high, bit edgy / hard, but good definition
<<< Warmer sound and bit woolly bass, more musical and rich, staging more wider and deeper (also compare to Takman) – bit midrange domination
SHINKOH JAPANESSE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet, detailed and airy and have big dimension in sound stage, quite neutral sound and draw me to music deeper (I feel overdominate in midrange compare to Riken or other neutral sounding resistor and then I decided to remove it and substitute with neutral sounding resistor) + slightly thinner sound compare to straight wire but calm presentation and leaner bass.
<<< As mentionded above but bit warmer sound (coloration I think) and bit overdetail high (edgier)
MILLS WIREWOUND 5 WATT
>>> Neutral sound, airy and dynamic sound, but not as sweet as tants, leading edge also in good side
<<< Less definition a bit but seems sweeter a bit / warmer (need more test)
KIWAME CARBON 2 WATT
>>> Bit noisy and high more apparent, other are quite neutral (need more test)
<<< Bit sweet and detailed also more airy (need more test)
KOA METAL FILM
>>> Sound more like Dale RN60, detailed and airy, bit sweet also
<<< As mentioned above but less bass, bit bright side but not sharp (need more test)
VISHAY NAKED Z-FOIL TX2575 or Z201
>>> This is what I say about, almost perfect resistor, the sound is all you wish your audio equipments sounds, imidiate, harmonic detail, open, detail but not sharp high, great bass, musical, neutral and smooth mid but not overly sweet, great dynamic, clean sound and fast – Very Recommended for upgrading – the effect almost like you change standard capacitor with much better one. My only complain is it added bit bass to male and female vocal, makes it bit thick. I never try other direction since it says no direction because of laser etched foil technology is almos equal on both side.
AMTRANS AMRG 2W CARBON RESISTOR
>>> Compare to riken RMG – this resistor bit more open and more neutral but less lusher. Better in music description and more musical compare to dale metal film. For musical taste I like riken than this amtrans.
<<< Less neutral and less lusher (bit forward)
Any killer dac thoughts IRTT???
Just shows there is no absolute in this game we play, All system dependant. Can't say i agree with most his findings, As an example i find the Riken 2 watt to be dark and undetailed, but grainless and sweet. All up lacking life, not really vibrant and alive, great on a bright dry system. Timbre is just to Dark with a sameness with instrument textures.
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Here is another link to an extensive resistor test in a variety of positions, DAC, Pre amp, Phono and power amp. Certainly one of the more exhaustive examples and a good read. You will need to use a translator (google).
http://diytriode.blogspot.com.au/2015/09/1092015-weglowe-rezystory-w-audio.html
:D :D :D :D :D :D
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You also have to consider the value of the resistor - it's really important.
For example, if you have a fairly high impedance circuit, say after the OP of a pre amp tube, then a 100 ohm resistor will
make much lass difference than say a 10kohm resistor.
Other rules can apply also, for example in Cathode circuit, if the resistor is shunted with a cap, as is commonly done you will hear the cap mostly
and then some of the resistor, but not much compared to cap.
Then there are tricks to 'hide' resistors. Often 6922 tubes have grid stopper resistors for stability. Some people don't like the sound of them
in front of the tube. A trick I often use is to wind a thin coil of wire over a carbon comp (A.B.) resistor. At audio freq the wire shorts the resistor out
to nothing. At freq where it wants to oscillate, the wire becomes an air coiled inductor damped by the resistor.
I bet you haven't seen that before!
:) :) :)
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Received an message from one of our members in Italy and i thought it will be of interest here.
I have read with interest your post on resistor sound.
As you can read here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/182611-tantalum-resistors-whats-3.html
I have found results very similar to yours, i.e. Shinkoh are the best,
followed by Allen Bradley 2W and AN tantalum non-magnetic.
I have tried also the relatively new Takman (metal and Carbon) but
none was in same league with the previous 3, and with Shinkoh in
particular. My simple question to you is if you have any update (what
comes close to Shinkoh in your opinion?) or if you had the opportunity
to test also others like Vishay bulk/Z foil or Tepro RA or others.
Best regards!
Tino
http://digilander.libero.it/agostino.manzato/audio/audio.html
Tino, The Shinkoh 2 Watt are on a planet of there own, even compared to the Shinkoh 1 watt version, its just a little better, no its a lot better. The Allen Bradley 2W is very good, but only after a good run in, Its natural with excellent timbre. But its not the cleanest of resistors. The AudioNote tantalum magnetic 2 Watt is very musical but i find you need to be careful where you put them and must not be over used and rarely use them, the Takman resistors are OK. The New AN tantalum non-magnetic resistors i found disappointing, but only compared to the Shinkoh 2 Watt or 1 Watt, they are not for me. Vishay bulk/Z foil are incredibly clean and clear but as with most of the newer made resistors just have this clinical and uninvolving sound that leaves me uninterested in listening. In the right spot most resistors can have a place, but the bottom line is the Shinkoh 2 Watt are so good, if you have them already there is nowhere to go. Nothing satisfies ultimately, like a Shinkoh 2 Watt or second best a 1 watt Shinkoh. In a brilliant system they rule. I often use a combination of resistors usually, rarely just one type. Every time i try a new resistor that has just hit the market i am always disappointed so i have given up unless there is a rave review.
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Hi...Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. Clean clear super resolution very good timbre, not quite as natural as the Allen Bradleys, but they are the best. Allen Bradleys 2 watt. No super resolution here, but these are super natural and rich, They can be little thick and fat with a chocolate coloration until at least a week of running in, then superb. But i must the PCB Assembly (http://"https://www.7pcb.com/")
of both these resistors is really good. They are of standard size and are not generating much heat after embedding into PCB.
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Hi...Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. Clean clear super resolution very good timbre, not quite as natural as the Allen Bradleys, but they are the best.Allen Bradleys 2 watt. No super resolution here, but these are super natural and rich, They can be little thick and fat with a chocolate coloration until at least a week of running in, then superb.
Right on, you have a good ear. I find a combination of the two can be beneficial.
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Just changed my cathode resistors today from Kiwame 10ohm to 1watt 10ohm AN Non Magnetic Tants, not as good as the Shinkoh, but better than the Kiwames.
Sux that popular values of the Shinkohs are nowhere to be had now :(
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Just changed my cathode resistors today from Kiwame 10ohm to 1watt 10ohm AN Non Magnetic Tants, not as good as the Shinkoh, but better than the Kiwames.
Sux that popular values of the Shinkohs are nowhere to be had now :(
Its an unfortunate situation, because the Shinkoh rules. And the gap in wide. Why cant they be copied. Why cant audionote copy them.
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Beats me Steve, you would think it not too difficult for someone like AN.
I was wondering who now holds the production design rights for Shinkoh resistors, or those production papers.
Looking for some 36K 2w AB's now, having difficulty finding that value in 2w, damn the scarcity of the better resistors.
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Cool, found a couple of places I can use available Shinkohs, only 1w ones available though, I guess better than nothing and still will be an improvement, and found AB 36k in Indo'.
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The Shinkoh 1 Watt is very good, better than any other resistor of any wattage except for the two watt version. I have a 1 watt Shinkoh per channel in one of my amps and i have tried to replace it with a 2 watt alternate make, but they where not even close to the one watt Shinkoh 1 Watt. Its all system dependent as you know.
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Need some help Steve, do you know the voltage rating for the 2watt Shinkohs?
I can't find that spec anywhere on the net.
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All good, they should be ok.
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Need some help Steve, do you know the voltage rating for the 2watt Shinkohs?
I can't find that spec anywhere on the net.
I do not think they take as much current as the earlier audionote variant because they are non magnetic. When i run a resistor because it sounds great and is to small for the job voltage wise, i use a heat sink or just the case and heat sink paste so the heat dissipates away. That way i can run a 2 Watt in place of a 5 Watt resistor. And of cause that means i can even run the smaller Shinkohs.
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That's a nice trick Steve 8)
I think they will be alright in this use, will see soon enough :D
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The 2 watt Shinkohs made a lovely difference! more realism to instruments, drums, strings, piano ect' 8)
Realised before installing the Shinkohs that I still had brass lumps on the input of my amp also (meant to change them ages ago), so in went some copper CMC sockets before the Shinkohs were installed and they made a nice difference and let me hear more of everything, should have done it ages ago like I was going to....bloody brass!
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BTW, was informed that the 2w Shinkohs have a voltage rating of 600vdc.
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Do not know but that seems Optimistic
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That's what I was informed of by Chris Johnson, president of Parts Connexion.
Edit: important to note that is a voltage handling rating, not a power rating... as in current.
His response was 600v, I take that as a DC voltage rating.
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Waiting on some AB resistors for some positions in my amp, I haven't used them before but from what I read here and others experiences I'm chomping at the bit to install them once they arrive :)
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Great resistors, but new they can sound a bit dark for a few days, but clean out nicely, i use them in tuning, in only the right positions till the balance is right. Let us know what you think of them, but only after run in.
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Replacing dropping resistors in the feed to the pre amp valves with these, the current ones are kiwame resistors. Maybe some to replace the balancing/drain resistors that are across the Mundorf main filter caps also.
Trying to upgrade from those Kiwami's that are still in the amp, I replaced some Kiwami's with Shinkoh's last episode :)
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I'm glad I take heed to what is done here, the AB's where a tad over rated values but close enough and the sound is better layered, instead of a tambourine being more of a single sound you hear all the little clangers that make the sound of it, brushes and strings, maracas ect' all sound better layered. It is a richer sound over all, more natrual.
Thanks to Steve and the KD forums again 8)
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It is a richer sound over all, more natural.
Thanks to Steve and the KD forums again 8)
Richer and natural, That is what i find is most important and why Allen Bradleys can be great, unfortunately most people lose sight of its importance
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Agreed, Steve, I lost it at one point chasing ultimate detail and only focusing on that, only to loose the body...or meat on the bones, lesson learnt there :)
Have some AB's to replace the drain/balancing resistors on the Mundorf HV main filter caps, not sure how much difference they might make with a change but as I find components in the PS do show their sound signature often, and especially in a valve amp I'll change them and see.
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New Audio Note resistor coming soon, using the tantalum's sister material called niobium. Not cheap at GBP 19.50 a pop but I really hope they sound better or at lease similar to the old Shinkoh tantalum.
Link: https://www.audionote.co.uk/niobium-resistors
Quote:
"We have a new non-magnetic resistor coming soon. They are 2 watt, non-magnetic but rather than our usual Tantalum resistive layer we chose its sister (daughter material, if you study Greek Mythology) Niobium.
Niobium has never been used in a resistor as far as we know. We looked at its properties and felt it was worth testing, and discovered that it is finer and more even sounding than Tantalum.
As is the case with all of our resistors, they are manufactured using the sputter target process, which makes a much better sounding resistor but is also more difficult to use. Niobium is even harder to use than Tantalum as the temperature co-efficient of this material is far more difficult to control in production.
Its sound is very complimentary to Tantalum if used carefully in sound critical parts of the circuit.
Price will be £19.50 each for the 2 watt version. We do not yet have the 1 and ½ watt versions as the manufacturing processes are still under development, but there will be a 2 watt silver Niobium resistor coming next.
We will have the following values available: -
100R, 120R, 150R, 180R, 220R, 270R, 330R, 390R, 470R, 560R, 680R, 820R
1k, 1k2, 1k5, 1k8, 2k2, 2k7, 3k3, 3k9, 4k7, 5k6, 6k8, 8k2
10k, 12k, 15k, 18k, 22k, 27k, 33k, 39k, 47k, 56k, 68k, 82k
100k, 120k, 150k, 180k, 220k, 270k, 330k, 390k, 470k, 560k, 680k, 820k
1M
Contact us directly for ordering and availability information."