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Tech Corner => Resistors => Topic started by: stevenvalve on December 26, 2013, 07:12:29 PM

Title: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on December 26, 2013, 07:12:29 PM
I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest.  http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new  non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on December 26, 2013, 08:25:58 PM
 Resistors I consistently use, more later
Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. Clean clear super resolution very good timbre, not quite as natural as the Allen Bradleys, but they are the best.
Allen Bradleys 2 watt. No super resolution here, but these are super natural and rich, They can be little thick and fat with a chocolate coloration until at least a week of running in,  then superb.
Audionote  tantalum resistors. Old version, Very good, but a little white or grey, rising top end, a little bleached of timbre. But still pretty good.

Riken, These are a carbon film, They sound sweet, and pretty, but also very dark, nice black background. Only for digital, that's where I use them. Not a very even handed resistor, Not recommended


Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on December 26, 2013, 11:03:43 PM
For those who can't clearly see the new AN tantalum non magnetic resistors they are in red circle.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on December 30, 2013, 08:03:34 PM
Some info about Allen Bradley resistors (thanks to Ozcal for the tip on SNA):
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/allen_bradley_resistors.html
Quote
Allen Bradley RESISTORS special treatment method
As stated Allen Bradley resistors are carbon composite, being made of an organic material they do have the tendency to absorb water from the atmosphere. This absorption can increase the actual resistance of the component, hence the slightly higher than normal tolerance published on this page. To fix this simply remove the water from the component and seal it. The best method is to place the resistor/s on a baking tray set, your oven to 80 degrees centigrade and leave in the oven for 8 hours. The secret is to remove the mositure slowly if you rush it it will become noisy in circuit. Once cooked seal the body of the component in Shellack (preferably the flakes) to stock any further water absorption. At the end of this procedure you will have a much lower noise, more closely tolerance resistors. Special thanks to Colin Cornish for this excellent tip.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: ozmillsy on December 31, 2013, 07:45:05 AM
I wonder if that procedure leans them out?
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: zenelectro on December 31, 2013, 01:21:08 PM
I wonder if that procedure leans them out?

Probably.

Both Carb Comp R's and old Polyester F/F Caps (Mullard etc) used in all this old gear is either hygroscopic or just affected by
moisture over time as it gets in where leads protrude.

As a general rule I use CC resistors for low values below say 1k and generally stay away from them for values >10k or so for
reasons of noise. Carbon Comp resistors are very noisy compared to other types however you have to understand that the
noise of a resistor is proportional to it's value. Not so well understood by average tweaker. IOW, a 10R resistor makes virtually immeasurable
noise, 10 meg resistor makes tons.

Specifically, a 400 ohm R has 2 x noise of 100R, 1600R has 2 x noise of 400R....etc so 400k has 64 x noise of 100R.

So especially in low level or first stages, a high value resistor is better served with a Tantalum type. Better stability, low noise,
lower drift and I think in these more sensitive stages CC R's colour is more likely not the go. Add the chocolate later :) keep things
clean up front!

You know many old noisy Marshall guitar amps (and other valve amps) have highish value (68k) carb comp R's right at the input and you can more than 1/2 the noise by
swapping one for 1k R. Most people are looking at the first tube trying to find low noise 12ax7 but the game is over before signal
gets to tube - the input R's are the culprit! 

There you go - that's called Johnson Noise!   :)

Z


Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 02, 2014, 11:48:49 PM
I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest.  http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new  non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
Well I ran them for 3 days till I could stand them no more. They share a common trait with there cheaper older model resistor, Harmonic bleaching. There is a sameness, slight whiteness to the timbre. Two different Singers one for each channel, no longer sounded as individuals but had similar character, Still good, But. The background was no longer black. They are musical, nice in every HI FI way, very good indeed, but they are not Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. When I put just my original Shinkoh 1 watt tantalum resistors back in that position and then started the system, I had a heart attack and died. More later.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 03, 2014, 03:40:57 AM
Well is a resistor that complicated, Why don't they (Audionote) strip one down (Shinkoh) and reverse engineer it. Well that's obvious, they must have already, so why aren't they as good. They have had 2 goes at the cherry, Is the tantalum carbon they use just not the same formula as the Shinkoh. Zen what is the answer.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: hedalfa on January 03, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest.  http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new  non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
Well I ran them for 3 days till I could stand them no more. They share a common trait with there cheaper older model resistor, Harmonic bleaching. There is a sameness, slight whiteness to the timbre. Two different Singers one for each channel, no longer sounded as individuals but had similar character, Still good, But. The background was no longer black. They are musical, nice in every HI FI way, very good indeed, but they are not Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. When I put just my original Shinkoh 1 watt tantalum resistors back in that position and then started the system, I had a heart attack and died. More later.

Very disappointing when things go this far backwards.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 03, 2014, 01:31:43 PM
They are still very good resistors and better than the Shinkoh tantalum resistors in many ways, buy not in the ways that matter to me. The timbrel character is a number one important priority to me. Its amazing that in a system, changing 2 resistors in an amp can ultimately make such a dramatic difference. But as we all know here, it just does.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Peter A on January 03, 2014, 01:35:09 PM
So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.

Peter
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on January 03, 2014, 07:23:35 PM
Hi Peter,

From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.

Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.

Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)

Cheers,
William
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: zenelectro on January 04, 2014, 12:53:06 AM
Hi Peter,

From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.

Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.

Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)

Cheers,
William

I think the Z foil are stripped (no package) bulk foil R's.
Vishay bulk foil are probably the cleanest / most transparent resistor ever made but many find them lean / thin sounding.
They are also very expensive.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 04, 2014, 01:43:47 PM
Hi Peter,

From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.

Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.

Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)

Cheers,
William

Right position I would say is in feedback loops but power handling is always an issue with the bulk foils.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 04, 2014, 05:15:07 PM
So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.

Peter
I don't like to recommend anything involving audio parts, because they is no guarantee regarding synergy. I am not a fan of any resistor unless its some form of carbon, First tantalum carbon is in my opinion the material the use for majority of spots, followed by (in a few places for tuning) the rest. like 2 watt Allen Bradley so natural and rich, audio note, new audio note, whatever works. I like resistors that are the Ying and Yang and having these opposed sounds is nice for tuning. Its all a blend, with the wire you use. caps, everything, its so complicated.

 I think the Z foil are stripped (no package) bulk foil R's.
Vishay bulk foil are probably the cleanest / most transparent resistor ever made but many find them lean / thin sounding.

I agree with ZENELECTRO on this. Not for me, but I have no doubt they will work well in some places .

Genially I keep away from all this stuff, don't like there clean sterile cardboard nature. The thing to grasp (for upgrading) most audio parts out there are ordinary, basically marketing bullsh!t. measures great but not really listened too.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: omodo on March 06, 2014, 09:18:23 PM
Some info about Allen Bradley resistors (thanks to Ozcal for the tip on SNA):
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/allen_bradley_resistors.html

I have been doing a bit of research of late on AB resistor types, and looks like the baking procedure was actually mentioned in the old datasheets, but they recommended vastly longer times than 8 hours -- up to 120/130 hours for 1W/2W types !!!...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/33w7cdg.png)


edit: also quite interesting is the test voltage/bias for higher values...


Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 06, 2014, 10:10:53 PM
Now that is really interesting, I will read this intently. There is more to a resistor than meets the eye.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on March 07, 2014, 09:13:47 AM
I have been doing a bit of research of late on AB resistor types, and looks like the baking procedure was actually mentioned in the old datasheets, but they recommended vastly longer times than 8 hours -- up to 120/130 hours for 1W/2W types !!!...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/33w7cdg.png)


edit: also quite interesting is the test voltage/bias for higher values...

Very good finding omodo! Thanks for that  :)

I have been happy so far with the AB without any baking but it is certainly interesting to try the procedure and make a comparison between non-baked vs baked. I'll post a report if I decide to go ahead with the procedure.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: ochremoon on March 07, 2014, 09:26:52 AM
Great post omodo. Thanks for that - very informative!
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 07, 2014, 09:40:38 PM
So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.

Peter
The thing is with the 2 Watt Allen Bradleys, every time I buy say 270Rs when I get them here, they nearly always read about 280R- 295R, Yet the colour code is 270R. I know there is a tolerance of 10 percent on domestic and 5 percent and on the military resistors. but both are consistently high, plus or minus to me means if you have 10 new Allen Bradley resistors, on average 5 will read above or on 270R, and 5 will read below or on 270R, or do they mean 10 percent either way . Well now we probably know why they are high.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: ozmillsy on March 07, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
Makes me wonder if they'll still have that rich character after they have been baked?  Only 1 way to find out.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on March 08, 2014, 08:05:30 AM
The thing is with the 2 Watt Allen Bradleys, every time I buy say 270Rs when I get them here, they nearly always read about 280R- 295R, Yet the colour code is 270R. I know there is a tolerance of 10 percent on domestic and 5 percent and on the military resistors. but both are consistently high, plus or minus to me means if you have 10 new Allen Bradley resistors, on average 5 will read above or on 270R, and 5 will read below or on 270R, or do they mean 10 percent either way . Well now we probably know why they are high.

Hi Steve, next time when you buy AB resistors from bigsmythe74 on eBay, tell him to ensure the resistors are within their spec. I did this last time I bought some AB off him and I got pretty good ABs and they're not very far off, all within 5% range. Not sure if you can ask him to get them matched but we can certainly return the resistors if they're too far off from the nominal value (standard practice on eBay), I'm sure bigsmythe74 aware about this too.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Greg Erskine on March 08, 2014, 10:31:09 AM
The thing is with the 2 Watt Allen Bradleys, every time I buy say 270Rs when I get them here, they nearly always read about 280R- 295R, Yet the colour code is 270R. I know there is a tolerance of 10 percent on domestic and 5 percent and on the military resistors. but both are consistently high, plus or minus to me means if you have 10 new Allen Bradley resistors, on average 5 will read above or on 270R, and 5 will read below or on 270R, or do they mean 10 percent either way . Well now we probably know why they are high.

Steve, you need a "valve" volt meter, those transistors can not be trusted.  :D
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: ochremoon on March 18, 2014, 11:17:43 PM
As everyone knows, shinkoh resistors are getting hard to obtain in many values, especially the 2-watters. So, assuming you want a tantalum film and given the choice of a 2W audionote or a 1W shinkoh in a given value, what would you go for?
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 18, 2014, 11:40:47 PM
As everyone knows, shinkoh resistors are getting hard to obtain in many values, especially the 2-watters. So, assuming you want a tantalum film and given the choice of a 2W audionote or a 1W shinkoh in a given value, what would you go for?
I tried the 2 watt audio notes, new and old, in the same spot, and the 1W shinkoh was still better, but in another spot, it may be a different story.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: ochremoon on March 19, 2014, 07:25:04 AM
Thanks Steven. I guess it's a case of splash the doe and get a variety to experiment. Dont s'pose ya know of a supplier with 10K 2W shinkohs; the usual suspects only have 1W ones. I wouldn't blame you for keeping that info to yourself though.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 19, 2014, 03:14:02 PM
Well, that is the problem, I can only get the 1 watt 10K shinkoh, as well. I use them in the leak, but I did get some 9.1K 2W shinkoh for my main amps, and I use them in a 10K spot, they worked perfectly. Get them instead, if its OK via your circuit. You can also get 2 /20K 1 watt shinkoh and run them parallel to get 10K, but they may not sound better that 1 /10K shinkoh. There are thin and thicker lead-out wires available on these 1 watt shinkoh's. Try to get the thicker ones. But they seem to have have run out, and most come with the thin leads. The 2 watt all have these thicker leads.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 19, 2014, 03:45:25 PM
I cannot stress enough, the shinkoh 2 watt resistors are just brilliant, if there is an equal or better all round modern resistor, where is it, I hope there is, but do we buy 100 different varieties just to find out, how expensive will what be. I usually use the shinkoh 2 watt or 1 watt in just the critical single path, if possible. If you can't get the 2 watt, 1 watt is still better than any other resistor I know.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Tuyen on March 19, 2014, 03:47:19 PM
Hi Steven, you using Shinkoh or Allen Bradley for the IV of your dac?
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 19, 2014, 07:24:19 PM
Hi Steven, you using Shinkoh or Allen Bradley for the IV of your dac?
Unfortunately audio manufactures have in the past, and even now, are trying to get information about what is in and how the DAC works. One in particular has already Stoll my tube complement. The funny thing is that any other resistor brand will not sound right at the value I use in the IV stage, I will pm you with the right one.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: skc on March 22, 2014, 06:42:41 PM
If you can't get the 2 watt, 1 watt is still better than any other resistor I know.

Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 22, 2014, 08:25:25 PM
Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
I have been thinking about these after you mentioned them. I have not heard them before, I am hot on there trail. looking them up via the net as I type.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 22, 2014, 08:33:00 PM
Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
Nice, I have tried many that looked very similar, but as you know that means, nothing. Are they neutral. Neutral is handy, but in the finally tunning process, flavours are also important. I guess we need to ask do we use only one resistor type, in any of our stuff, for me not really. Do you have any leftover Charcroft foils I can try.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: skc on March 23, 2014, 08:03:53 AM
Do you have any leftover Charcroft foils I can try.

Nope, but I have 88 of them coming in for a ladder attenuator. Happy to grab a few extra spares if you let me know what you want to play with.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 23, 2014, 01:03:20 PM
88, now you are serious, probably a good choice for a ladder attenuator, Clean is what is needed. On the Quad 57 system. My elna ladder attenuator has dale resistors, Don't really know how good they are, they where on it when I brought it.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Tuyen on March 24, 2014, 01:14:22 AM
(http://i58.tinypic.com/ndrkhs.jpg)

Choose your poison.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 24, 2014, 01:55:53 AM
Ha, There is no poison, but there is cream and honey. 2 watt Shinkoh and 2 watt Allen Bradley.  As Humphrey Bogart said at the end of that great movie... The Maltese Falcon.... That's the stuff dreams are made of.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Tuyen on March 24, 2014, 10:37:30 AM
haha!

I am trying to decide which I prefer to use in the IV stage.  Both have hundreds of hours on them.   The ABs do the mids and highs more gentle and decliate. Flows smoother. Easier to listen to, especially at full scale volumes when I'm really getting into a piece.   But I found the bass a bit loose and not as defined as the Shinkohs.   The shinnies had a deeper, tighter, more articulate bass to lower mid bass.  But then the mids and highs are a lttle crisp in comparison.   It doesn't help as I am using a BMS 4540ND compression driver which uses a neodymium magnet from 4khz upwards.    If it was with the GOTO midhigh and tweeters, would probably balance out as they have a 'soft'  sonic character.

I think I'll stick with the Skinkohs for now, as I really am a 'bass man' and that is the aspect I am most picky about on my setup.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 24, 2014, 03:05:46 PM
An audiophiles listening prioritys are often interesting, younger means bass, older means midrange splendour, very old means turning it up real loud.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Tuyen on March 24, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
Call me an old manchild.

I like bass and I like it loud!   8)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on March 24, 2014, 07:21:27 PM
Call me an old manchild.

I like bass and I like it loud!   8)


Can't agree more Tuyen!  8)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on March 24, 2014, 07:23:47 PM
haha!

I am trying to decide which I prefer to use in the IV stage.  Both have hundreds of hours on them.   The ABs do the mids and highs more gentle and decliate. Flows smoother. Easier to listen to, especially at full scale volumes when I'm really getting into a piece.   But I found the bass a bit loose and not as defined as the Shinkohs.   The shinnies had a deeper, tighter, more articulate bass to lower mid bass.  But then the mids and highs are a lttle crisp in comparison.   It doesn't help as I am using a BMS 4540ND compression driver which uses a neodymium magnet from 4khz upwards.    If it was with the GOTO midhigh and tweeters, would probably balance out as they have a 'soft'  sonic character.

I think I'll stick with the Skinkohs for now, as I really am a 'bass man' and that is the aspect I am most picky about on my setup.

I like the resolution of the Shinkohs. Simply the best!
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: PingPing on April 28, 2014, 08:29:18 PM
Have you tried the Charcroft foils?
Did anyone try the Charcroft foils... thanks  :)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: kajak12 on April 28, 2014, 08:44:23 PM
Did anyone try the Charcroft foils... thanks  :)
Yes the only problem is they are low wattage and too many in a circuit and they can create problems.Other wise very nice resistors.........................
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: PingPing on April 28, 2014, 09:19:51 PM
Yes the only problem is they are low wattage and too many in a circuit and they can create problems.Other wise very nice resistors.........................
Hi kajak12, can you elaborate on "very nice resistors" and where are can they be obtained from... thanks  :)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: kajak12 on April 28, 2014, 09:31:09 PM
Hi kajak12, can you elaborate on "very nice resistors" and where are can they be obtained from... thanks  :)
Clean and clear too many and you loose timbre heart and soul on a given system(they are like a nice woman With make up on  in a semi lit room take her to a room with too much light and she starts looking like a barbie doll (artificial)
parts connexion hifi collective google them
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: PingPing on April 28, 2014, 10:35:48 PM
ok, thanks  :)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on May 15, 2014, 08:05:53 PM
Ping. Allen Bradley carbon, Shinkoh Tantalum, Audio note Tantalum, Always use 2 Watt, stick with Carbon and Tantalum carbon type Resistors.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: PingPing on May 27, 2014, 02:47:27 PM
Hi stevenvalve, what about the old Phillips 2watt carbon resistors... thanks  ;)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on May 27, 2014, 03:20:32 PM
Hi PingPing,

They're crap. Give them to me  :P

Cheers,
Wil
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on May 27, 2014, 04:13:41 PM
Hi stevenvalve, what about the old Phillips 2watt carbon resistors... thanks  ;)
Some are very good, are they reddish in colour, do you have a picture.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: PingPing on May 28, 2014, 08:07:12 AM
Hi stevenvalve,  :o , I went to look for my stash of them (that I put in a safe place sometime ago!!!) and I can't find them... breath deep :o  I will let you know when I find them...
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: omodo on July 28, 2014, 09:43:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnezplX1zlc
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Tuyen on July 29, 2014, 02:14:32 PM
Could you guys hear a difference between the 3 options?    Which option brought out the most emotion from the music?

A = basic wirewound resistor = $2
B = duelund silver carbon CAST resistor = $50
C = autoformer attenuator = $500+ ?

I think I heard a little bit more clarity/resolution with system C?  Not much difference between A and B.       Then again, am listening through youtube compressed audio, USB sound blaster sound card and basic headphones.     


Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: ozmillsy on July 29, 2014, 06:02:32 PM
:)  8)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on July 29, 2014, 11:10:38 PM
Its a pitty it was not done blind but despite streaming over the net the differences between the standard cement covered wire wound and the Dueland was there to hear.  IMV there was more texture to the notes with B and less stridency.  C was the best overall and made the violin much more listenable, so it should at probably 10 times the price, its only when you go back to A that you realise how much it mucks up the sound.

Thanks Mr. T, that was an interesting demo.

V
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: omodo on July 30, 2014, 02:56:40 PM
Tuyen, yes I think the differences were quite obvious, even through youtube/headphones hence I found it interesting enough to post.

I preferred C, seemed more natural if not a touch attenuated compared to B, perhaps the inductance of the autoformer. Pity not much detail was given how the resistors were used, assuming as a divider or part of, nor if any compensation was added for the autoformer.

According to their blog they will be posting another video showing the differences between core types in the autoformer (orient hi-b, finemet, amorphous), that should be quite interesting...
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Tuyen on July 30, 2014, 04:15:12 PM
Agreed option C sounded best. Less congested.    Quite possible regarding the inductance of the autoformer causing effect on crossover point.  I have experienced this 'issue' from my very brief time playing with autoformers on horn tweeters.   I wish Kenrick would have option D.   No passive crossover components in the path between the amp and driver. Instead using an active circuit further upstream.   Differences would certainly be interesting!   ;D

What's funny is I can hear the differences more obvious through my crappy PC setup with headphones  compared to 'tuned' main horn rig.   ??? :-[  :'(
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: ozmillsy on July 30, 2014, 06:03:46 PM
Yeah,  I wouldn't worry too much.  My PC headphones reveal alot of warts, that I dont hear on any of my 3 speaker systems.   I think (my) PC headphones can be a bit coarse and skewed towards the treble,  they certainly lack midrange body that the Tannoys have in spades. 
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: skc on August 12, 2014, 07:13:57 PM
88, now you are serious, probably a good choice for a ladder attenuator, Clean is what is needed. On the Quad 57 system. My elna ladder attenuator has dale resistors, Don't really know how good they are, they where on it when I brought it.

Attenuator complete ready for install;

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/skakavas/20140812_143413_zps924f6859.jpg?t=1407834743)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on August 12, 2014, 07:37:15 PM
Very nice job there! How many hours did you put in?  :o
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on August 12, 2014, 07:42:45 PM
Attenuator complete ready for install;

(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/skakavas/20140812_143413_zps924f6859.jpg?t=1407834743)
I might have misted it, what brand of resistor are they, some kind of foil. I must say, it looks real good.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on August 12, 2014, 07:56:48 PM
I might have misted it, what brand of resistor are they, some kind of foil. I must say, it looks real good.

Charcroft foils Steve.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: kajak12 on August 17, 2014, 10:40:59 PM
I might have misted it, what brand of resistor are they, some kind of foil. I must say, it looks real good.
Great job  i hope the colouration works well in your system......................
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: skc on August 18, 2014, 07:52:48 AM
Great job  i hope the colouration works well in your system......................

Thanks Kajak; I guess when it comes to colouration, your experience is unparalleled.  :)

Jokes aside, I have tried at least a half dozen other types of resistors in the signal path in this mix. The Charcrofts were easily superior to anything else I tried.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 18, 2014, 10:01:56 AM
Yes Charcrofts and Vishay VSRJ's bulk foils are exceptionally clean sounding with all the detail.  The 'nude' one's perhaps even cleaner.  Using them in feedback loops is great as they don't place to much signature on anything IMV.  The biggest issue is their low power handling being typically 0.25 - 0.5w.

I bought a switched attenuator around 25 years ago when each resistor was around 30 dollars each(VSRJ's), ouch that hurt but it beat hands down  the then popular Holco precision 1w 0.5% metal films!

There has been much talk about the best resistors and here it is hard to definitively say which is best as it depends entirely on where in a circuit they are placed.  Here is where the 'art' in mixing and matching comes into effect. 

The switched attenuator, is it a series unit where the sound passes through each additive resistor or one where there is a single value to earth with a single resistor in the signal path?  The latter is much better IMV.

V
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: skc on August 18, 2014, 12:56:46 PM

The switched attenuator, is it a series unit where the sound passes through each additive resistor or one where there is a single value to earth with a single resistor in the signal path?  The latter is much better IMV.

V

It is a ladder switch, so only one Rx and one Ry value per position.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 18, 2014, 01:31:19 PM
That's the best solution then for resistors.  ;D What overall impedance is it?  47k, 100k, 250k? This is the final arbiter as getting this match incorrect will effect the overall result.
V
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: skc on August 18, 2014, 02:00:51 PM
100k impedance.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Pixelplay on September 01, 2017, 04:57:23 PM
With 2w Shinkoh's almost a distant memory and now assigned to the designation or "Rocking Horse Sh1t" are we any closer to finding a suitable replacement? AB's are great but not up to the Shinkoh's.
Any further input would be most welcome as I am collecting the goods to build my very own Killer 50 amp.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on September 01, 2017, 05:48:36 PM
The new(ish) range from Audio Note UK of 1 and 2 watt non magnetic resistors sounds OK to me.  They have a real quality feel to them too with top quality lead in wires.  They look fab as well.  The Non magnetic part is important to avoid smear through magnetics.  I have several fitted to my preamp and have no urge to remove them.  Hope this helps.  I buy mine through the HiFi collective back in the UK, they are reliable and reasonably quick too.

Oh and if you have deep pockets you could try their same range in Silver lead outs.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: hedalfa2 on September 03, 2017, 08:00:09 AM
I have used hi fi collective they provide good service.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on September 04, 2017, 06:45:37 PM
The new(ish) range from Audio Note UK of 1 and 2 watt non magnetic resistors sounds OK to me.  They have a real quality feel to them too with top quality lead in wires.  They look fab as well.  The Non magnetic part is important to avoid smear through magnetics.  I have several fitted to my preamp and have no urge to remove them.  Hope this helps.  I buy mine through the HiFi collective back in the UK, they are reliable and reasonably quick too.

Oh and if you have deep pockets you could try their same range in Silver lead outs.
I have tried these but for me they where not as good as the Shinkoh's, so system dependant.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on September 04, 2017, 09:46:16 PM
How long did you have them in circuit Steve?  Did you use the one watt or two watt versions.? I was quite surprised at their weight and quality feel compared to the usual Allen Bradleys. Shinkoh's are not always available more the shame.  I'd be interested in what others think too.

Maybe you can come up with a where best to use the various types to add weight or colour or vibrancy etc. :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on September 04, 2017, 11:09:15 PM
How long did you have them in circuit Steve?  Did you use the one watt or two watt versions.? I was quite surprised at their weight and quality feel compared to the usual Allen Bradleys. Shinkoh's are not always available more the shame.  I'd be interested in what others think too.

Maybe you can come up with a where best to use the various types to add weight or colour or vibrancy etc. :) :) :) :) :)
To be fair to the 2 watt audionote resistors, my system was tuned for the shinkoh and when i replaced a 1 watt shinkoh for the 2 watt audionote it changed the balance so much so i only ran the audionote for an hour.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on September 05, 2017, 09:15:35 PM
Just checked and the shinko resistors are cheaper by a fair bit 8 UKP each compared to 13.75 UKP for the audio note non magnetic 2 watters. The AN tantalum with the silver leads are a fair bit more at 32.35 UKP each so it gets expensive pretty quickly.

I was hoping that some of our readers could chip in with long term experiences using the Audio Note resistors or any other 2 w types and where in the circuit they found they worked best.  I would think 40 hours running time would settle them in enough.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: guru on September 06, 2017, 01:52:44 PM
Whilst it's all well to compare the price of 2 watt Shinkoh's to AN, have you actually looked at the values available and were the ones for 8 Pounds usable in any circuits you want to use them in. The remaining stock are all values rarely used hence the quantity available, all the commonly used values show zero stock. Shinkoh haven't been manufactured for at least 10 years now if not longer.
As for run in time on AN resistors, they don't even begin to sound the way they should until at least 80 hours run time. The system I used at the recent show in Sydney had at least 60 of the silver resistors in circuit both in the amp and cd player and the minimum run time was 150 hours for those.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on September 06, 2017, 02:34:05 PM
Whilst it's all well to compare the price of 2 watt Shinkoh's to AN, have you actually looked at the values available and were the ones for 8 Pounds usable in any circuits you want to use them in. The remaining stock are all values rarely used hence the quantity available, all the commonly used values show zero stock. Shinkoh haven't been manufactured for at least 10 years now if not longer.
As for run in time on AN resistors, they don't even begin to sound the way they should until at least 80 hours run time. The system I used at the recent show in Sydney had at least 60 of the silver resistors in circuit both in the amp and cd player and the minimum run time was 150 hours for those.
I must say the Audionote system (to my ears) was the best sound at the Sydney HiFi show, but i did not listen to every room. I probably need to run the Audionote resistors in for a lot longer, and i may do that. Guru's sound was very good. As for the price of these resistors, they are expensive, but how much do we spend on our music systems.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: yarhevarhe on September 06, 2017, 06:48:50 PM
... As for run in time on AN resistors, they don't even begin to sound the way they should until at least 80 hours run time. The system I used at the recent show in Sydney had at least 60 of the silver resistors in circuit both in the amp and cd player and the minimum run time was 150 hours for those.
that sounds very reasonable to me.    One hour is nowhere near enough time (not even close and not even in cooee) for burnin (nor settling) except perhaps for Jaycar resistors and even then perhaps not.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: yarhevarhe on September 06, 2017, 07:05:31 PM
... Sydney HiFi show,
Does SNA run the Sydney HiFi show or the Melbourne HiFi show?
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on September 06, 2017, 11:15:35 PM
Does SNA run the Sydney HiFi show or the Melbourne HiFi show?
SNA did run one of the two Melbourne HiFi shows last year, but not Sydney.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on September 07, 2017, 08:07:04 PM
This is an interesting post on resistors, cut and pasted from https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/top-resistors?sort_order=desc

I have tried several resistors, some of them are best sounding for me and most of them sounds different if you change the dirrection on which you'll start the input signal.

Here's the result: (caution: quite long) :) and sorry if my english not really good

AUDIO RESISTOR COMPARISON SOUND AND DIRECTION TEST

TAKMAN REX – CARBON COMPOSITE
>>> Bit edgy and hard sound and less detail, less bold than Riken RN std in the same direction but more organized
<<< Sweeter, more detailed, more musical, more airy and bit more warm, tone more balanced and organized
DALE RN60 METAL FILM – MIL SPEC
>>> Quite neutral, detailed high and crisp, more bold sound than takman (or more like direct cable I guest), not as sweet as Takman but less edgy and breathe music more –strong bass also + bit hard if compare to direct straight wire (less liquid)
<<< Bit sweeter but less bold, airy too, clearer high bit, and more musical a bit, still have strong bass but little lean
RIKEN RMG – CARBON (I like this resistor when it compare to almost all this reviewed resistor except TX2575)
>>> Sweet and spacious sound, detailed and airy, good bass and warm mid – bit laidback compare to shinkoh
<<< As mentioned above but bit more musical, more breathe, but bit less definition and bit less dynamic
AUDIONOTE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet and musical, not as much air as Takman (in reverse direction), good bass – felt bit tubelike sound and midrange domination
<<< As mentioned above but bit less bass leading edge (I need more test on this)
RIKEN RN STANDARD (BROWN COATING AND NO GOLD PLATED)
>>> Bit sharp high, bit edgy / hard, but good definition
<<< Warmer sound and bit woolly bass, more musical and rich, staging more wider and deeper (also compare to Takman) – bit midrange domination
SHINKOH JAPANESSE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet, detailed and airy and have big dimension in sound stage, quite neutral sound and draw me to music deeper (I feel overdominate in midrange compare to Riken or other neutral sounding resistor and then I decided to remove it and substitute with neutral sounding resistor) + slightly thinner sound compare to straight wire but calm presentation and leaner bass.
<<< As mentionded above but bit warmer sound (coloration I think) and bit overdetail high (edgier)
MILLS WIREWOUND 5 WATT
>>> Neutral sound, airy and dynamic sound, but not as sweet as tants, leading edge also in good side
<<< Less definition a bit but seems sweeter a bit / warmer (need more test)
KIWAME CARBON 2 WATT
>>> Bit noisy and high more apparent, other are quite neutral (need more test)
<<< Bit sweet and detailed also more airy (need more test)
KOA METAL FILM
>>> Sound more like Dale RN60, detailed and airy, bit sweet also
<<< As mentioned above but less bass, bit bright side but not sharp (need more test)

VISHAY NAKED Z-FOIL TX2575 or Z201
>>> This is what I say about, almost perfect resistor, the sound is all you wish your audio equipments sounds, imidiate, harmonic detail, open, detail but not sharp high, great bass, musical, neutral and smooth mid but not overly sweet, great dynamic, clean sound and fast – Very Recommended for upgrading – the effect almost like you change standard capacitor with much better one. My only complain is it added bit bass to male and female vocal, makes it bit thick. I never try other direction since it says no direction because of laser etched foil technology is almos equal on both side.
AMTRANS AMRG 2W CARBON RESISTOR
>>> Compare to riken RMG – this resistor bit more open and more neutral but less lusher. Better in music description and more musical compare to dale metal film. For musical taste I like riken than this amtrans.
<<< Less neutral and less lusher (bit forward)

Any killer dac thoughts IRTT???
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: kajak12 on September 07, 2017, 08:08:41 PM
Does SNA run the Sydney HiFi show or the Melbourne HiFi show?
SNA will run anything just for $$$$$ just read the reviews  ;D
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: vitavoxdude on September 07, 2017, 09:19:35 PM
Well money is the evil driver behind most things.  I am just glad that they sponsor such an event, having a show is better than no show surely?

Reviews, well you have to read between the lines a little at times, but it does fuel our dreams and I'd much rather have SNA than not. Reading reviews for the past 35 odd years you get a feel for what is and is not being said.  Usually the last line tells all as in the reviewer bought the sample!

SNA sow's a lot of seeds, but for dedicated types, they always seek out alternative posts and outlets to satisfy their quest IMV.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: Jehuty on September 08, 2017, 09:40:36 AM
the reviewer bought the sample!

The quote I always look for in the first place before I start reading the whole review.
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: yarhevarhe on September 08, 2017, 08:18:35 PM
SNA seems quite bad to me and not good at all and you are probably right regarding the $$$$$
Title: Re: Resistor games
Post by: stevenvalve on September 08, 2017, 08:23:05 PM
This is an interesting post on resistors, cut and pasted from https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/top-resistors?sort_order=desc

I have tried several resistors, some of them are best sounding for me and most of them sounds different if you change the dirrection on which you'll start the input signal.

Here's the result: (caution: quite long) :) and sorry if my english not really good

AUDIO RESISTOR COMPARISON SOUND AND DIRECTION TEST

TAKMAN REX – CARBON COMPOSITE
>>> Bit edgy and hard sound and less detail, less bold than Riken RN std in the same direction but more organized
<<< Sweeter, more detailed, more musical, more airy and bit more warm, tone more balanced and organized
DALE RN60 METAL FILM – MIL SPEC
>>> Quite neutral, detailed high and crisp, more bold sound than takman (or more like direct cable I guest), not as sweet as Takman but less edgy and breathe music more –strong bass also + bit hard if compare to direct straight wire (less liquid)
<<< Bit sweeter but less bold, airy too, clearer high bit, and more musical a bit, still have strong bass but little lean
RIKEN RMG – CARBON (I like this resistor when it compare to almost all this reviewed resistor except TX2575)
>>> Sweet and spacious sound, detailed and airy, good bass and warm mid – bit laidback compare to shinkoh
<<< As mentioned above but bit more musical, more breathe, but bit less definition and bit less dynamic
AUDIONOTE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet and musical, not as much air as Takman (in reverse direction), good bass – felt bit tubelike sound and midrange domination
<<< As mentioned above but bit less bass leading edge (I need more test on this)
RIKEN RN STANDARD (BROWN COATING AND NO GOLD PLATED)
>>> Bit sharp high, bit edgy / hard, but good definition
<<< Warmer sound and bit woolly bass, more musical and rich, staging more wider and deeper (also compare to Takman) – bit midrange domination
SHINKOH JAPANESSE TANTALUM
>>> Sweet, detailed and airy and have big dimension in sound stage, quite neutral sound and draw me to music deeper (I feel overdominate in midrange compare to Riken or other neutral sounding resistor and then I decided to remove it and substitute with neutral sounding resistor) + slightly thinner sound compare to straight wire but calm presentation and leaner bass.
<<< As mentionded above but bit warmer sound (coloration I think) and bit overdetail high (edgier)
MILLS WIREWOUND 5 WATT
>>> Neutral sound, airy and dynamic sound, but not as sweet as tants, leading edge also in good side
<<< Less definition a bit but seems sweeter a bit / warmer (need more test)
KIWAME CARBON 2 WATT
>>> Bit noisy and high more apparent, other are quite neutral (need more test)
<<< Bit sweet and detailed also more airy (need more test)
KOA METAL FILM
>>> Sound more like Dale RN60, detailed and airy, bit sweet also
<<< As mentioned above but less bass, bit bright side but not sharp (need more test)

VISHAY NAKED Z-FOIL TX2575 or Z201
>>> This is what I say about, almost perfect resistor, the sound is all you wish your audio equipments sounds, imidiate, harmonic detail, open, detail but not sharp high, great bass, musical, neutral and smooth mid but not overly sweet, great dynamic, clean sound and fast – Very Recommended for upgrading – the effect almost like you change standard capacitor with much better one. My only complain is it added bit bass to male and female vocal, makes it bit thick. I never try other direction since it says no direction because of laser etched foil technology is almos equal on both side.
AMTRANS AMRG 2W CARBON RESISTOR
>>> Compare to riken RMG – this resistor bit more open and more neutral but less lusher. Better in music description and more musical compare to dale metal film. For musical taste I like riken than this amtrans.
<<< Less neutral and less lusher (bit forward)

Any killer dac thoughts IRTT???
Just shows there is no absolute in this game we play, All system dependant. Can't say i agree with most his findings, As an example i find the Riken 2 watt to be dark and undetailed, but grainless and sweet. All up lacking life, not really vibrant and alive, great on a bright dry system. Timbre is just to Dark with a sameness with instrument textures.