The KillerDAC Audio forum

Tech Corner => Capacitors => Topic started by: stevenvalve on January 04, 2014, 05:57:03 PM

Title: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 04, 2014, 05:57:03 PM
My PX4 valve amp has always been a problem. It was great in many ways but when i swapped to the other 250 globe amp it showed these problems, one was a lack of liquidity. My main 250 amp has 1930-40s Freed oil filled chokes, critical for its brilliant liquid sound. PX4 does not, and it shows. So how do I give that amp what it demands. Them I spied the answer, Audionote 0.22 paper in oil filled capacitors. Out came the Duelund 0.47. Am I crazy you ask, Removed the choke input setup and the extra caps, (less is more) now in one fowl swoop, it is brilliant, liquid, so liquid you can cut it with a knife, big soundstage, dynamic, grainless, This amp just needed this cap, the synergy is amazing. Before you rush to buy Audionote oil caps these are not the new Audionotes oil caps, the ones I am using are 5-10 years old, paper in oil. The new Audionote Mylar oil capacitors look the same and may measure better, but sound ordinary.    
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on January 04, 2014, 07:34:32 PM
Them I spied the answer, Audionote 0.22 paper in oil filled capacitors. Out came the Duelund 0.47. Am I crazy you ask, Removed the choke input setup and the extra caps, (less is more) now in one fowl swoop, it is brilliant, liquid, so liquid you can cut it with a knife, big soundstage, dynamic, grainless, This amp just needed this cap, the synergy is amazing.

Ahhh finally Steve, less is more indeed!

How much voltage do you get on the PX4 tube? Is the amp quiet enough since you took out the cap and choke input?

I gotta have another listen!  ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on January 04, 2014, 07:38:12 PM
Steve, one more thing, perhaps it's time to try out the new Duelund Cast Copper? They are paper in oil. I think I'm going to order some more parts for my Leak so if you want to get a pair or quad of the Duelund, let me know, more than happy to do the order together and share shipping cost.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 04, 2014, 07:43:31 PM
Steve, one more thing, perhaps it's time to try out the new Duelund Cast Copper? They are paper in oil. I think I'm going to order some more parts for my Leak so if you want to get a pair or quad of the Duelund, let me know, more than happy to do the order together and share shipping cost.
I have already had them here last month, More junk.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on January 04, 2014, 08:02:12 PM
Good to know. Save lots of my money  ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ochremoon on January 14, 2014, 11:27:17 PM
Steve, one more thing, perhaps it's time to try out the new Duelund Cast Copper? They are paper in oil. I think I'm going to order some more parts for my Leak so if you want to get a pair or quad of the Duelund, let me know, more than happy to do the order together and share shipping cost.
I have already had them here last month, More junk.

Junk? Can you elaborate? What didn't you like about them? I've just (tonight) replaced the output caps in my Cary preamp with 2.2uF CAST copper and basically I've got a new preamp. Stunning and that's without any burn-in.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on January 15, 2014, 07:27:42 AM
Junk? Can you elaborate? What didn't you like about them? I've just (tonight) replaced the output caps in my Cary preamp with 2.2uF CAST copper and basically I've got a new preamp. Stunning and that's without any burn-in.

Hi , welcome to the forum.   What caps did you replace with the CAST copper?    Did you pull out some electrolytics?    What you removed is really relevant, and how did the sound change for you?

Plenty of people rate the CAST caps highly.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ochremoon on January 15, 2014, 11:18:13 AM
Thanks Ozmillsy, I'm very pleased to be here.

I've been looking at this forum almost since its inception but am basically in reading and learning mode as I have insufficient experience to comment on most matters discussed here. I've spoken to Steve on the phone about qualities of various valves and have some familiarity with the killerdac through listening to Graham's (Gamve's) unit, so I know I want one eventually. My focus is very much on tone and timbre and much of the celebrated hi-fi gear leaves me cold, so I feel some affinity with the values and goals of most people here.

The caps I replaced were old Evox polypropylene numbers which admittedly are cheap and nothing special. In fact I'd never heard of them before I opened up the unit. They were put in by the previous owner as replacements for Audio 1 PIO caps (which are the standard Cary upgrade caps) which he thought sounded muddy. I suspect that may have been a backward step in some ways but I don't know as I never heard the unit with the Audio 1 caps in.

I liked the sound of the Cary SLP98 (good midrange, though perhaps a tad dark, instruments like cymbals unnatural and not much depth to the soundstage) and thought it had upgrade potential. I figured the biggest gain would be in changing the output caps. I have Lenehan ML1 speakers and upgraded to the reference model with Duelund VSF caps in the crossovers about 18 months ago, so I already knew the difference Duelund caps can bring in this application. Since I got the preamp cheaply I felt I could justify to myself spending a lot on the caps so after reading nothing but positive stuff about the CAST coppers (and after a bit of hand-wringing) I ordered them.  The case is only about 25mm deep so I mounted them on top, just in front of the four big electrolytics that stick out above the unit also. They actually look pretty good there and as you know are about half the size of a red bull can. I may post a photo when I can get a decent one.

The improvements were in all areas, immediate and not subtle: Much more presence and realism, greater clarity, better separation of instruments, more accurate tone, greater detail and an actual soundstage now. I feel that the transparency of these caps is such that I'm confident that I can now swap out some of the resistors and hear the change. The magnitude of the difference I heard in swapping the output caps is a fair bit greater than it is in rolling valves, but probably valve rolling will also reveal greater differences now these caps are in. If they really take up to 600 hours to reach their stable best I have an interesting journey ahead - I'm only just reaching that point with my speakers.

Cheers,

Chris
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 15, 2014, 02:32:26 PM
Well done Chris, I have heard the cast here, They where clean that's for sure, but probably not my first choice. but there is no absolute, they (cast copper) seem very system dependent. I will write a report on the Cast tonight.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on January 15, 2014, 08:33:39 PM
Good post Chris, thanks, interesting findings.  

Always great to hear the experiences from a fellow tweaker.
 It's a sickness we have you know,,,, that irresistible urge to change something.  But incredibly rewarding when we make a big stride forward.

Sounds like the CAST is giving the Cary exactly what it needs.  Well done.

I agree with Steven that alot is system dependent.  It's not surprising when different people get different results.

Hope to see more posts in the future, when you start changing resistors and other components.  :)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: rab on January 16, 2014, 08:20:46 AM
Junk? Can you elaborate? What didn't you like about them? I've just (tonight) replaced the output caps in my Cary preamp with 2.2uF CAST copper and basically I've got a new preamp. Stunning and that's without any burn-in.

Hi Chris, i think you have to bear in mind that "junk" in this context may well mean no more that, in the particular circumstances of Steven's extremely optimised system, it lacked the last few percent of life, body, etc. compared to his reference. But those last few percent is what Steven is chasing, his system is so good every scintilla of sound counts for a lot.

Congrats on the ML1 refs. I have heard Mario's ones in Perth and they sound astonishingly good in his system, better than any other Lenehan speaker i have ever heard. Keep going!

- r
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 16, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
Yes.  Mario's speakers driven by a well sorted EL34 amp has the richness of tonality that many miss with their whiter than white crap hifi.  The KDAC is providing the goods musically with rich sounding components, add to this the valve bloom and optimized room size / positioning of speakers by a dedicated audio junky and the results stack up.
V :D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on January 16, 2014, 09:01:15 PM
Steve, one more thing, perhaps it's time to try out the new Duelund Cast Copper? They are paper in oil. I think I'm going to order some more parts for my Leak so if you want to get a pair or quad of the Duelund, let me know, more than happy to do the order together and share shipping cost.
I have already had them here last month, More junk.

Junk? Can you elaborate? What didn't you like about them? I've just (tonight) replaced the output caps in my Cary preamp with 2.2uF CAST copper and basically I've got a new preamp. Stunning and that's without any burn-in.
About a year ago a friend bought around 4 cast 0.47 duelunds from parts connection. He was not 100% happy with the sound of this amp and when the opportunity came up he came to my place with his amp (Radford STA25). He wanted me to attach my 4 spare duelund VSF 0.47 for a listen. Both sets had been run in for about a year. The cast where better in most audiophile parameters, A lot Cleaner, clearer, more extended, more detail, But what the VSF did for him was more important. bigger soundstage, warmer, natural, organic, liquid, real, and most important involving. The cast was just more HIFI like. He was amazed how much better to VSF where, actually he was over the moon. His priority's dictated that the strengths of the VSF in this amp, made it sound right.  You may say, how is this possible, the cast is the top of the line. Well....The original designer of the VSF is dead, these new duelunds are not his creations, and I feel they must be cheaper to make, Look at the parts connection prices, the top of the line cast is cheaper than the VSF. Its so system dependent, Mike lenelan loves the cast in his speakers because of there strengths. But modern drivers are slow, ponderous, lack life, suffer from a lot of overhang, small low gauss magnet, well....built for a price, he needs to hurry them up, clean them up Give them energy and life. So in his world, they where the right choice. In my world, in that amp, the synergy was right. Is one better than the other, depends who you ask.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 19, 2014, 09:30:50 PM
I have borrowed 4 cast 0.47 duelunds and have put them in my Leak stereo 20 for a listen, and I wanted to see how they perform in a different amp. They indeed sound real good in this leak, the synergy in real nice. Are they better than the VSF 0.47 duelunds, well time will tell because I have some on the way, if these casts are better in this amp, they will stay. Here is a picture of the casts with flying leads in the amp,  Ps that's the girl who dropped them off at my place, and is always pestering me for a date.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 19, 2014, 10:01:10 PM
Hi Steve, very nice! (the girl)  ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 20, 2014, 12:34:42 AM
I have borrowed 4 cast 0.47 duelunds and have put them in my Leak stereo 20 for a listen, and I wanted to see how they perform in a different amp. They indeed sound real good in this leak, the synergy in real nice. Are they better than the VSF 0.47 duelunds, well time will tell because I have some on the way, if these casts are better in this amp, they will stay. Here is a picture of the casts with flying leads in the amp,  Ps that's the girl who dropped them off at my place, and is always pestering me for a date.

How do the Casts compare to the VSFs in your main type 50 amp? That would provide the best comparison since your main system is highly tuned.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on February 20, 2014, 01:18:56 AM
Long Cat 5 connecting expensive caps...........................hmmmmmmm  ???  :-\, tut tut.
I owned a stereo 20 for many years, nice sounding amp but compared to great amps it does lack grip, air and body.  I gave it to a good mate who had good ears and horns so the lack of reasonable wattage was less of an issue.
V
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 20, 2014, 01:32:50 AM
Hi V,

I'm quite certain the modest Cat 5 works better than fancy silver wire in his system  8)

Cheers,
William

Edit: If you're talking about the length of the Cat 5 wire, then fair enough...  :)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on February 20, 2014, 01:50:34 AM
OK William so here's my point:  :) How many people are using Cat 5 for their interconnects?  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
OK so its as cheap as chips and made of recycled buss bars in China, does this give it the credibility to be used when deciding which of a several hundred dollar cap is the best, hmmmmmm, give me a nono second to think about that one.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 20, 2014, 01:54:05 AM
Hi V,

Okay, I understand your point. What works well in his system may not work in your system nor mine. So YMMV  :D

Cheers,
William
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 20, 2014, 03:19:28 AM
OK William so here's my point:  :) How many people are using Cat 5 for their interconnects?  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
OK so its as cheap as chips and made of recycled buss bars in China, does this give it the credibility to be used when deciding which of a several hundred dollar cap is the best, hmmmmmm, give me a nono second to think about that one.
V, Its the early Pirelli Australian cat 5. Its also been blessed by a Tibetan monk, and sprinkled with holly water. Does that help in making a decision.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: zenelectro on February 20, 2014, 10:50:18 AM
OK William so here's my point:  :) How many people are using Cat 5 for their interconnects?  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
OK so its as cheap as chips and made of recycled buss bars in China, does this give it the credibility to be used when deciding which of a several hundred dollar cap is the best, hmmmmmm, give me a nono second to think about that one.

You bring up an important point here and that is, especially in this day of predominantly Chinese manuafacture, how do we know the quality of the copper used in cables.

I've been going through standards of copper purity used in various cables and it's hard to know who is supplying what. If it's from China do the standards stickers even mean anything?

ATM I'm veering towards getting a supply of UPOCC solid core, mainly for the purpose that you know what level of purity you are getting.

Z
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: gamve on February 20, 2014, 12:50:26 PM
I'm not sure that this is correct, but is it even possible to buy crap quality copper. Refining techniques today leave little
possibility of less than 99.99% purity with most copper refined to 4N 99.9999% and some even to 6N 99.999999%
Copper smelters are not setup to produce sh!t purity products to save money as no one would buy it.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: hedalfa on February 20, 2014, 05:41:54 PM
I'm not sure that this is correct, but is it even possible to buy crap quality copper. Refining techniques today leave little
possibility of less than 99.99% purity with most copper refined to 4N 99.9999% and some even to 6N 99.999999%
Copper smelters are not setup to produce sh!t purity products to save money as no one would buy it.

Yep. but we know that if the Chinese can save 1 cent they will, More profit honourable master. While its not pick on China day they have been caught out supplying brass for copper etc. I don't blame steven having a low trust factor. I still cant get over one amp manufacturer that used 300b valves as lights there weren't used in the amplification. And its not hearsay I know the tech that worked on the amp, he was well and truly shocked by what he saw!!! If would have been more than shocked I would be swearing blue bloody murder if I was the owner of that amp!!
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on February 20, 2014, 06:05:06 PM
Well I have to say I am quite taken back by musings such as well its just copper mate  :o
If people truly believe that all copper is the same then form a cue at Bunning's LOL.

I see no one took me up on the CAT5 interconnects, I wonder why.  If I were checking out capacitors (getting back on subject) and hooked them up with ~200mm of run of the mill copper I would have to kick myself in the backside and would expect some censure from other more enlightened one's, but there were a lot of ships spoilt for a happenth of tar!

Japense copper is amongst the best of the large crystal type, you will notice a considerable ease and lack of harshness / glare compared to the run of the mill stuff. The continuous casting process gets you there. So annealed copper anyone? Drawn copper wire, plated copper wire, flat copper ribbon; each and every example will produce different results so I have to disagree with its just copper wire mate and no one makes low quality.  Having been to China I will attest to if they can save half a cent they will.
V
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 20, 2014, 07:56:01 PM
I've heard interconnects made with cat5 wire and eichman plugs,  they didnt sound out of place.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: omodo on February 20, 2014, 07:59:12 PM
didn't Masters have a safety recall on the cheap chinese produced mains cable they were selling a while back? iirc it was the insulation failing rather than issues with the copper - but also applicable here when dealing with hundreds of volts.






 
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 20, 2014, 08:42:32 PM
How its time for the Hovland music caps. These are the old stock before Hovland folded, and well run in. I used to use Hovland caps years ago, I put a set in Mario present amps a long time ago. Do they still cut it after all these years, we shall see.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 20, 2014, 08:45:06 PM
didn't Masters have a safety recall on the cheap chinese produced mains cable they were selling a while back? iirc it was the insulation failing rather than issues with the copper - but also applicable here when dealing with hundreds of volts.






 
Best to strip the rubbish off and use Teflon.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 21, 2014, 01:23:10 PM
Guess what guys,   I just got a spam email from pcx,   advising me they have just acquired a big bunch of NOS Blackgates at reasonable prices.  

Whose gunna jump first??    :P  8)  :-*

(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1370915/Audio/Gear/pcx_blackgates.JPG)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on February 21, 2014, 01:27:51 PM
Yes also got the same email.
Looks like they are going in at half the rate of the market price according to who exactly. ::)  Black gate caps take far to long to sound reasonable and the newer silk Silmic Elnas may well be better!
V
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 21, 2014, 01:29:14 PM
Sensai effing hates 'em.       ;D   :-X
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 21, 2014, 01:58:07 PM
Guess what guys,   I just got a spam email from pcx,   advising me they have just acquired a big bunch of NOS Blackgates at reasonable prices.  

Whose gunna jump first??    :P  8)  :-*

(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1370915/Audio/Gear/pcx_blackgates.JPG)
unmusical sh!t, No wonder they stopped making them, Lets face it, In todays age if they sounded great and where selling, why would any company cease production. why because they are rubbish.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 21, 2014, 02:02:30 PM
Careful there...Shinkoh's gone as well...  :(
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 21, 2014, 02:40:17 PM
I better buy some more Shinkohs,   they'll be a good investment.   :-\
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 21, 2014, 02:42:10 PM
The 2 Watt Shinkoh's are great resistors, but they finished long ago, It shows most audio people will use anything as a resistor. So does that mean most audiophiles are deaf.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 21, 2014, 03:01:28 PM
Audiophiles don't buy resistors,   they buy expensive "brand" components.

We are a different breed,  IMO.    We're lost souls chasing rainbows.  :-\  hahaha   :P 
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 21, 2014, 03:35:42 PM
The 2 Watt Shinkoh's are great resistors, but they finished long ago,
Are there some really common values ?     
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 21, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
1K TO 100k and sometimes needed up to 300k. 10K is useful
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: zenelectro on February 21, 2014, 04:50:35 PM
didn't Masters have a safety recall on the cheap chinese produced mains cable they were selling a while back? iirc it was the insulation failing rather than issues with the copper - but also applicable here when dealing with hundreds of volts.

 
Best to strip the rubbish off and use Teflon.

Wire porn     :D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: zenelectro on February 21, 2014, 04:53:26 PM
The 2 Watt Shinkoh's are great resistors, but they finished long ago, It shows most audio people I will use anything as a resistor. So does that mean most audiophiles are deaf.

You better stop talking about them - I saw some mention of Shinkho's on a pro audio site...  uh oh   :o
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 21, 2014, 04:55:01 PM
Zen,   where do you get the different types of insulated Neotech ?    Aurealis only have the Teflon coated type.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on February 21, 2014, 04:57:24 PM
You better stop talking about them - I saw some mention of Shinkho's on a pro audio site...  uh oh   :o

It's amazing how many lurkers there are,   reading and never posting.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Tuyen on February 21, 2014, 06:48:24 PM
What do you guys think of the green Russian K75-10 PIO caps?
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 21, 2014, 08:37:14 PM
I have four in my Leak 20 as coupling caps, I really can't complain especially when you look at the price, $15 for 10 including shipping  ;D
I bought mine from here: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/0-47uF-250V-Hybrid-PIO-Capacitors-K75-10-Lot-10-/380504713144

Detailed explanation:
Quote
It has a very saturated, colorful, textured, and detailed midrange that is thick and juicy. While PIOís are known for their natural and smooth midrange, K75 seems to add some jest, pop, and color to the proceedings, yielding an apparently more detailed and forceful presentation. Treble and bass is pretty good, especially for an oil cap, but the leading edges are not razor-sharp and precise like premium film caps. Since the midrange is so involving and palpable, the lack of equal force in treble makes it seem a bit dark overall, but as one increases the volume, this becomes less of an issue, and poorly-recorded music is much more tolerable at higher volume.

I can confirm the bold words above.

Can't go wrong Tuyen, it's so cheap!  ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 21, 2014, 08:39:40 PM
Zen,   where do you get the different types of insulated Neotech ?    Aurealis only have the Teflon coated type.

Hi Oz, here: http://partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_neotech_main.html
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 21, 2014, 08:52:08 PM
The 2 Watt Shinkoh's are great resistors, but they finished long ago, It shows most audio people I will use anything as a resistor. So does that mean most audiophiles are deaf.

You better stop talking about them - I saw some mention of Shinkho's on a pro audio site...  uh oh   :o

We'd better start promoting Audio Note Tantalum Non Magnetic!
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: zenelectro on February 21, 2014, 11:13:37 PM
The 2 Watt Shinkoh's are great resistors, but they finished long ago, It shows most audio people I will use anything as a resistor. So does that mean most audiophiles are deaf.

You better stop talking about them - I saw some mention of Shinkho's on a pro audio site...  uh oh   :o

We'd better start promoting Audio Note Tantalum Non Magnetic!

Yep - with a wink  ;)



Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on February 21, 2014, 11:33:39 PM
The 2 Watt Shinkoh's are great resistors, but they finished long ago, It shows most audio people I will use anything as a resistor. So does that mean most audiophiles are deaf.

You better stop talking about them - I saw some mention of Shinkho's on a pro audio site...  uh oh   :o

We'd better start promoting Audio Note Tantalum Non Magnetic!
Its a shame they are not as good as the Shinkho's, not even close.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on February 21, 2014, 11:48:26 PM
The 2 Watt Shinkoh's are great resistors, but they finished long ago, It shows most audio people I will use anything as a resistor. So does that mean most audiophiles are deaf.

You better stop talking about them - I saw some mention of Shinkho's on a pro audio site...  uh oh   :o

We'd better start promoting Audio Note Tantalum Non Magnetic!
Its a shame they are not as good as the Shinkho's, not even close.

It's funny because when they first came up with the slight magnetic version they did admit it was not better than the Shinkoh and yet it's pretty good. And now, the non magnetic has been promoted to beat the legendary Shinkoh but it's not even close  >:( Maybe you should try the silver version Steve! wink...wink...   ;)  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on March 21, 2014, 12:16:59 AM
Hi Steve

Any conclusion on the Hovland Musicaps at this stage?
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 21, 2014, 03:02:31 AM
Hi Steve

Any conclusion on the Hovland Musicaps at this stage?
I did have them on the leak about 6 weeks ago, and then replaced them with duelunds cast. I have flying leads for a quick cap change, I will put the Hovland Musicaps back in tomorrow and let you know the result. My Hovland Musicaps are the old one's, not the reissues made today, they should sound the same, but who knows.  We will see, but I remember i was impressed with them, and they are reasonably cheap, and a full film and foil.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on March 21, 2014, 03:11:17 AM
Cool, I look forward to hear what you think.

Cheers
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on March 21, 2014, 09:19:46 AM
Yep, I am following this closely too as I'd like to get a quad for my Leak 20! Hopefully they're as good as Duelunds (I can wish, can't I?)  8)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on March 21, 2014, 05:54:47 PM
Would be nice if they were, hay  :)

I have a pair of the old type in the first coupling stage of my jfet phono stage, with VSF's on the out-put, and have been tempted to replace them with another pair of VSF's....... but will it be worth the expense? or would I be better investing that in a move to a all tube phono stage?

A difficult thing for me to decide on, so Steve's opinion on the Hovland's is of great interest to me, I know he would have better perception with these things than I do, and others here would also have better than I do  ::)

Although, an all tube phono stage is very attractive  8)

Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on March 21, 2014, 07:25:13 PM
I know he would have better perception with these things than I do, and others here would also have better than I do  ::)
You're being too modest here Data. I've read many of your posts on SNA and I can tell that you have good ears and know what you're doing with your system *thumbs up*

I have a pair of the old type in the first coupling stage of my jfet phono stage, with VSF's on the out-put, and have been tempted to replace them with another pair of VSF's....... but will it be worth the expense? or would I be better investing that in a move to a all tube phono stage?
I don't know much about phono stage but it's quite safe to say VSF would be an improvement over the Hovland. Steve would have used Hovland if they were better than the VSF. Also all tube phono stage is expensive, isn't it? Surely it will cost more than a pair of VSF?

Cheers,
Willliam
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 21, 2014, 08:03:18 PM
 I have just changed the Duelund cast caps to the Hovland music caps, and listening as I type.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on March 21, 2014, 09:14:36 PM
I'd buy a good tube phono, and put Duelands in it.  :P

Maybe I should take my own advise, and whack some vsf's in my tube phono.   :-\  :-X
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ochremoon on March 21, 2014, 09:47:21 PM
I'd buy a good tube phono, and put Duelands in it.  :P

Maybe I should take my own advise, and whack some vsf's in my tube phono.   :-\  :-X

I may do the same (you're a long time dead, as they say)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on March 21, 2014, 10:08:00 PM
Thanks, jehuty

Too kind  :-[

A good tube phono stage can be expensive, but there is a guy that makes EAR clones, in part using recovered parts, I had  a loan of one from a member and while it didn't have the detail and refinement of the stage I have now, it was very musical and very open, maybe with better parts...

If I felt more confident I would have a crack and building something from scratch, but :-\
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 21, 2014, 10:09:22 PM
I may do the same (you're a long time dead, as they say)
That is good advice, it puts life in prospective. Enjoy it now there my be no tomorrows.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on March 21, 2014, 10:23:59 PM
I knew this place would kick off another path to an aim for better sound.

What was I thinking  ::)

Ah, well.......I may start looking at different tube based circuits, that should keep me busy till I have some cash flow to start.

Still interested in what you think of the Hovland's, Steve  8)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on March 22, 2014, 06:39:27 AM
A good tube phono stage can be expensive, but there is a guy that makes EAR clones, in part using recovered parts, I had  a loan of one from a member and while it didn't have the detail and refinement of the stage I have now, it was very musical and very open, maybe with better parts...
I love my 834P.   But there are some parts in it that I'd like to change. (Eg: Wima's.  :-X ).

What does the EAR clone cost approx?
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on March 22, 2014, 05:29:41 PM
Hay OZ :)

A bunch of guys on lenco heaven (thread here http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=6182.0 ) were into them, I think it was working out to about $250 shipped, maybe about $300 shipped now.

Yeah, they are not works of art but do work and sound good for what they are. But the cases and transformers are recovered from other used kit, and the rest of the parts very ordinary, the one I borrowed used 6SL7's if I recall correctly.

This is the modified circuit that the guy used I think http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Leserbriefe/Carsten-RIAA/Carsten-RIAA.htm
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 22, 2014, 07:56:34 PM
Would be nice if they were, hay  :)

I have a pair of the old type in the first coupling stage of my jfet phono stage, with VSF's on the out-put, and have been tempted to replace them with another pair of VSF's....... but will it be worth the expense? or would I be better investing that in a move to a all tube phono stage?

A difficult thing for me to decide on, so Steve's opinion on the Hovland's is of great interest to me, I know he would have better perception with these things than I do, and others here would also have better than I do  ::)

Although, an all tube phono stage is very attractive  8)
Here is the interesting thing about listening to a system and then commenting on the quality of different tested components. As you all know I am comparing Cast duelunds against hovland music caps. On my big system its easy, because you can hear a fly landing on the speaker box or even a half deaf audiophile coming through the front door, the smallest change via even a piece of wire is audible. But on the second system consisting of a great sounding set of Quad 57s topped with Linauem omnidirectional tweeters, leak stereo 20 Rebuilt with quality hand picked parts and also armed with great valves, stepped resistor volume control, plus a very good sounding expensive professional pioneer DVD player. Now here is the problem when I change parts cables caps resistors it's very much harder to pick exactly what is really going on, there is a equalization of the playing field, differences are somewhat nullified. The differences are there but can we use this information in a real tangible way. So the question needs to be asked, is any of the results even valid, Could anyone build say, incredible sounding amplifiers or preamps if they did not have a great sounding setup, do you need a real sounding system to actually hear the truth. Well all I can say (with this Quad setup) is that i could build a great sounding amplifier to suit the quad 57s. But I could not make with certainty a universal, magical sounding world class amplifier. If we where to do some blind testing of parts, via this system can we really predict anything representative of the truth. Well my answer is not much chance. Anyway I am still listening to these caps, I just need people to decide for themselves how much real world value should be factored into the result. PS, one thing the Quad 57 speakers and leak setup does have, tremendous musical engagement.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on March 22, 2014, 09:31:11 PM
Nice post Steve.

For myself, I use others experience with different parts as a reference point (It's also interesting and sometimes thought provoking). It just makes the path a little shorter... sometimes.

At the end of the day I always need to try for myself, in my system.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 24, 2014, 01:42:59 AM
Nice post Steve.

 I use others experience with different parts as a reference point (It's also interesting and sometimes thought provoking). It just makes the path a little shorter... sometimes.

At the end of the day I always need to try for myself, in my system.
I too started buying parts recommended to via the friends, magazines, and the general audiophile community. But they can only tell you about experiences on there own systems. Often their idea of greatness, was unfortunately my idea of ordinary, It's not there fault, they can only tell you as they hear it, attuned to the level of performance they had achieved. That meant often, the recommendations had many limitations. I just had to buy and try. That is why I have draws full of substandard Audio parts. But guidance from the right people can be a big help. Hopefully with all the contributors on this forum, we will help many new audiophiles, so they do not have to take that same long expensive and often misguided path. We have all been there.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: hedalfa on March 24, 2014, 08:41:45 AM
Here is the interesting thing about listening to a system and then commenting on the quality of different tested components. As you all know I am comparing Cast duelunds against hovland music caps. On my big system its easy, because you can hear a fly landing on the speaker box or even a half deaf audiophile coming through the front door, the smallest change via even a piece of wire is audible. But on the second system consisting of a great sounding set of Quad 57s topped with Linauem omnidirectional tweeters, leak stereo 20 Rebuilt with quality hand picked parts and also armed with great valves, stepped resistor volume control, plus a very good sounding expensive professional pioneer DVD player. Now here is the problem when I change parts cables caps resistors it's very much harder to pick exactly what is really going on, there is a equalization of the playing field, differences are somewhat nullified. The differences are there but can we use this information in a real tangible way. So the question needs to be asked, is any of the results even valid, Could anyone build say, incredible sounding amplifiers or preamps if they did not have a great sounding setup, do you need a real sounding system to actually hear the truth. Well all I can say (with this Quad setup) is that i could build a great sounding amplifier to suit the quad 57s. But I could not make with certainty a universal, magical sounding world class amplifier. If we where to do some blind testing of parts, via this system can we really predict anything representative of the truth. Well my answer is not much chance. Anyway I am still listening to these caps, I just need people to decide for themselves how much real world value should be factored into the result. PS, one thing the Quad 57 speakers and leak setup does have, tremendous musical engagement.


I would not have really considered this years ago, yet I have also come to this view myself.  A lot of testing (blind or otherwise) might be considered naÔve where we run some gear against each other and expect to divide up the winners and losers.  If you have done much experimentation with systems over time you may have experience a false result, thought yourself something was a problem (or inferior) when you hadnít really identified the cause.  One simple case was some strange tonal resonances occasionally out of decca Kelly tweeters, no it wasnít a design fault, it was operator error, they needed to be properly mounted, when they were properly mounted the problem completely disappeared.  Some owners might have sold them for that fault.  The other common problem is speaker placement, Andy and I  have  heard first hand how much better for example quads sound pulled out from the walls, and how horribly poor a new pair sounded when a dealer had them right up against walls.  You can quite imagine some one concluding quads were terribly poor speakers against others based on faulty implimentation.

Where there a major deficits, and equipment has faults we may not need a system where you can hear a fly landing on the speaker to hear the differences. Yet say we have some speakers that arenít really tuned well, box issues and room effects, how reliably can we make conclusions about amps feeding those speakers.  One amp (amp A) may set off issues with speaker response that the other doesnít, we falsely conclude that amp A  is inferior to AMP B other, when if we listened to both on a speaker that was well tuned and had minimal  room interactions we could imagine reaching the opposite conclusions, amp A is superior.



Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on March 24, 2014, 09:02:48 AM
I would not have really considered this years ago, yet I have also come to this view myself.  A lot of testing (blind or otherwise) might be considered naÔve where we run some gear against each other and expect to divide up the winners and losers.  If you have done much experimentation with systems over time you may have experience a false result, thought yourself something was a problem (or inferior) when you hadnít really identified the cause.  One simple case was some strange tonal resonances occasionally out of decca Kelly tweeters, no it wasnít a design fault, it was operator error, they needed to be properly mounted, when they were properly mounted the problem completely disappeared.  Some owners might have sold them for that fault.  The other common problem is speaker placement, Andy and I  have  heard first hand how much better for example quads sound pulled out from the walls, and how horribly poor a new pair sounded when a dealer had them right up against walls.  You can quite imagine some one concluding quads were terribly poor speakers against others based on faulty implimentation.

Where there a major deficits, and equipment has faults we may not need a system where you can hear a fly landing on the speaker to hear the differences. Yet say we have some speakers that arenít really tuned well, box issues and room effects, how reliably can we make conclusions about amps feeding those speakers.  One amp (amp A) may set off issues with speaker response that the other doesnít, we falsely conclude that amp A  is inferior to AMP B other, when if we listened to both on a speaker that was well tuned and had minimal  room interactions we could imagine reaching the opposite conclusions, amp A is superior.
Absolutely Hedalfa.   Happens all the time.    Happened to us in fact, at the last ACT gtg.    All in attendance left thinking the Radford was over-rated,  and the Leak best PP amp around.

The Radford had issues,   a change (I made) that knobbled it's top end.     It's fixed now.   If forum members want to hear and compare it,  come to my place.      There is no point taking it elsewhere, as it's tuned into my system.   8)

 
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: hedalfa on March 24, 2014, 12:11:13 PM
Absolutely Hedalfa.   Happens all the time.    Happened to us in fact, at the last ACT gtg.    All in attendance left thinking the Radford was over-rated,  and the Leak best PP amp around.

The Radford had issues,   a change (I made) that knobbled it's top end.     It's fixed now.   If forum members want to hear and compare it,  come to my place.      There is no point taking it elsewhere, as it's tuned into my system.   8)

 

Yes thats exactly what happened, though I thought something had possibly gone wrong with the amp, it wouldnt normally sound as it did, yet I had no conclusive idea as I had never heard another radford, it was only a hunch, yet hunches are not always wrong.

Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on March 28, 2014, 08:39:12 PM
BAD NEWS!!!

http://partsconnexion.com/cap_film_duel_rs_speaker.html

Quote
DUELUND has recently launched a new cap product, to replace the original Virtual Stacked Foil (VSF) Series. A Copper Foil hybrid design, using the dielectric of the original VSF Series, but in the same form factor as the CAST-PIO Series (taking advantage of itís non-resonant mechanical stability), these caps approach the CAST-PIO performance is a number of ways, but at a far lower retail (nearly half). Like with CAST-PIOís, the values listed have been bought (and stocked) in quantity, so that we can price these parts at their lowest possible retail (not like the custom-ordered pricing of the past). Retail pricing is lower the old VSF Series, and comparable to the now retired Alexander line - but with far better performance that either of those discontinued lines !
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 28, 2014, 09:08:12 PM
Duelund VSF, The best 400 Volt capacitor I have ever heard, and they are going to junk them.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on March 28, 2014, 09:17:38 PM
<sighs>  :'(

Hopefully the new model comes close.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 28, 2014, 09:25:56 PM
Hi Steve

Any conclusion on the Hovland Musicaps at this stage?
The hovland music capacitor sounds very good indeed, there main claim to fame is musicality and involvement, Remember I am running them in my second system, a fully worked Leak stereo 20 with Quad 57s. They really rivet you to the music, impressive and cheap. They can on some systems be a little bright, (no darkness here) and a little shy of timbre, possibly because they are made with high purity aluminium. So you must tune the component or system accordingly. This is a very good cheap film and foil capacitor.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ochremoon on March 28, 2014, 10:08:34 PM
Corresponding with Duelund a few weeks ago, they told me that the VSF would always be available as a custom order (don't know what the cost would be though).
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 29, 2014, 12:53:26 AM
Corresponding with Duelund a few weeks ago, they told me that the VSF would always be available as a custom order (don't know what the cost would be though).
I hope so, its the best capacitor I have heard,  but only in the ways that matter.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on March 29, 2014, 09:53:51 PM
The hovland music capacitor sounds very good indeed, there main claim to fame is musicality and involvement, Remember I am running them in my second system, a fully worked Leak stereo 20 with Quad 57s. They really rivet you to the music, impressive and cheap. They can on some systems be a little bright, (no darkness here) and a little shy of timbre, possibly because they are made with high purity aluminium. So you must tune the component or system accordingly. This is a very good cheap film and foil capacitor.

Hi guys,

Anyone know where I can buy them? I tried Octave Electronics but they didn't reply to my query so I assume they don't have it anymore. I need about 8 caps to play around in my Leak 20  ;D

Cheers,
William

Edit: Just found them on www.percyaudio.com, I hope they still have some stock  :)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on March 30, 2014, 08:04:51 AM
Alright, I got a reply from Percy Audio and they have plenty in stock. Anyone wants to buy some Hovland Musicaps? Send me a PM. We can share the shipping cost.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on March 30, 2014, 09:27:17 AM
Interesting points made by SV and Headalpha regarding masking effects in systems.  IMV the less componentry you have in a circuit the easier it is to spot greatness or bland hifi; trouble is, getting a system to behave its self with minimal componentry is where the art and design comes in.

An amp tuned to a particular system is also less likely to perform in another system as well as a stock built amp, let alone another room.  Manufacturers always have a couple of pairs of speaker kicking around with which to evaluate and adjust the outcome of their projects which may be the latest fave rave or something of a more mature 'standard' model. (BC3's and BC'1's, ESL 57's etc come to mind here for UK output).

A little concerned that Dueland are almost dropping the VSH caps, maybe they are following the marketing strategy of trying to make more profit using easier to make product which may or may not be as good as what went before.  Dropping the Alexandra range soo quickly is also driven by concerns other than quality possibly. :(  If the Blackgate debacle is anything to go by you better stock up on VSH's................................ :-X  Does anyone have the inside line as to exactly what their reasoning is?

V
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 30, 2014, 11:06:15 AM
Interesting points made by SV and Headalpha regarding masking effects in systems.  IMV the less componentry you have in a circuit the easier it is to spot greatness or bland hifi; trouble is, getting a system to behave its self with minimal componentry is where the art and design comes in.

An amp tuned to a particular system is also less likely to perform in another system as well as a stock built amp, let alone another room.  Manufacturers always have a couple of pairs of speaker kicking around with which to evaluate and adjust the outcome of their projects which may be the latest fave rave or something of a more mature 'standard' model. (BC3's and BC'1's, ESL 57's etc come to mind here for UK output).

A little concerned that Dueland are almost dropping the VSH caps, maybe they are following the marketing strategy of trying to make more profit using easier to make product which may or may not be as good as what went before.  Dropping the Alexandra range soo quickly is also driven by concerns other than quality possibly. :(  If the Blackgate debacle is anything to go by you better stock up on VSH's................................ :-X  Does anyone have the inside line as to exactly what their reasoning is?

V
Duelund sell the cast copper for about 2/3rd the price of the Duelund VSF copper, it's clear from looking at the cast, they are cheaper to make.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: skc on March 30, 2014, 03:36:37 PM
^^ Huh?

You mean VSF's were around 2/3rd the price of CAST right?
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ochremoon on March 30, 2014, 06:02:17 PM
No, Steven is correct. The VSFs are more expensive. Supposedly the Cast are cheaper to make.

BTW, I sent another message to Frederik and he has today re-iterated that "classic product will always be available ..."(by custom order).
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: skc on March 30, 2014, 06:05:18 PM
No, Steven is correct. The VSFs are more expensive. Supposedly the Cast are cheaper to make.

Ok, that's news to me then!

In fact, I have a partsconnextion invoice showing 4.7uF VSF, CAST Cu and CAST Ag caps I purchased last year to play with in my monoblocks. VSF was the cheapest by a fair way.........
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Tuyen on March 30, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
Check out partsconnexion 'special' pricing on CAST varients, which has been going on for the past few months. 

2.2uF / 630VDC, CAST-PIO-Cu, Copper Foil, 66mm D x 62mm H
Special pcX Price: $289.95 USD, Each!
$776.00 $289.95 pcX USD

vs

2.2uf / 400 VDC, VSF, Copper Foil, 39mmT x 55mmW x 45mmL, Each
$355.85 $302.48 pcX USD Price
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Tuyen on March 30, 2014, 06:16:02 PM
Better stock up boys!   ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: skc on March 30, 2014, 06:43:08 PM
Wow, big reductions; could have saved few thousand bucks if I had waited!
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ochremoon on March 30, 2014, 09:24:01 PM
I thought the "special" price was a bit of a con and that they never charged the advertised full price. They seem to be on "special" every time I look at the site. If you paid the full price, my commiserations.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: skc on March 30, 2014, 09:35:46 PM
No, the CAST were definitely "full price" for a couple of years that I recall. My understanding from an email from Partsconnexion was that they placed a order for a "commercial quantity"; hence the "special" pricing. Either way, I prefer the CAST Cu to the VSF everywhere I have used them. The CAST Ag I only prefer in a few locations which is just as well given the coin.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on March 30, 2014, 10:40:52 PM
No, the CAST were definitely "full price" for a couple of years that I recall. My understanding from an email from Partsconnexion was that they placed a order for a "commercial quantity"; hence the "special" pricing. Either way, I prefer the CAST Cu to the VSF everywhere I have used them. The CAST Ag I only prefer in a few locations which is just as well given the coin.
I feel the opposite, Everyone that has heard the two different caps here, prefer the copper VSF over the CAST Cu. The cast is in most parameters is the better cap, But on my system, the VSF Cu Is more like real music. Its three main strengths are warmth, naturalness, and the most important real involvement.  I repeated the test on my 2nd system ended up with the same result. I have only heard one set of Cast Cu, (4 ) they there old from the first production run, maybe the later Cast's are better, and that would not surprise me at all. You all know its so system dependant, and production run dependant, so I say whatever works.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on April 01, 2014, 05:12:47 PM
Damn! this means that when I need Dueland caps I'll need to do a special order.

Hope pricing is no worse because of it.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on April 01, 2014, 05:49:09 PM
Damn! this means that when I need Dueland caps I'll need to do a special order.

Hope pricing is no worse because of it.
mike Lenehan can get them in Australia, he is far cheaper than parts express and he is the Australian distributer.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on April 01, 2014, 07:29:53 PM
Far cheaper is a stretch.   He was 'on par' for me.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: skc on April 01, 2014, 09:29:16 PM
mike Lenehan can get them in Australia, he is far cheaper than parts express and he is the Australian distributer.

I've found Mike's pricing better than the list price from PC, but nothing like the sale prices.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: omodo on April 01, 2014, 10:04:02 PM
you should see the pricing at the dac shootouts !!!!!







(only kidding....)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on April 02, 2014, 03:18:39 AM
mike Lenehan can get them in Australia, he is far cheaper than parts express and he is the Australian distributer.
You got the special price from him.


Far cheaper is a stretch.   He was 'on par' for me.
I agree, same for me.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on April 02, 2014, 07:43:15 AM
It sounds like the price depends on who asked.

When I ordered, I checked the price at PCX and it was on par.   I ordered with Mike because he's a local supplier, and he had them in hand.

I went to Mike under Stevens advise he was cheaper, and at least in my case he wasn't. 

I'm ok to support local suppliers.   But if there is a mates rate going,  who gets them?   ;)

Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on April 02, 2014, 09:02:11 AM
Mike probably considers Steve as a manufacturer so he gets the special pricing. Oh well, I'd love to get the special pricing but I think it's fair that we get the same price as in the US or anywhere else. Mike was willing to price match as well so I'm not complaining.

Back to Blackgate caps, anyone wants them? They're on sale now on PCx: http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_blackgate_v.html

I pass  ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on April 02, 2014, 06:22:32 PM
Oh, dont get me wrong, if there is special pricing for manufacturers, I have no issue with that at all.

But the comment was it's cheaper to buy through Mike.   And in my experiencd it isnt.   <shrugs>

Blackgates, [meh].   Actually there are some in my M3 that I should pull out and sell. 
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on June 04, 2014, 05:03:44 PM
These are on ebay now, they look good, anyone heard them

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261495174837?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on June 04, 2014, 05:12:14 PM
They're not the copper version. Those are flat stacked aluminium, some people say they're better than the non flat stacked ones like mine. I suspect the sound quality is on-par or even better than the old Hovland Musicap.

Oh speaking of Hovland Musicap, there's a new version, newer than the Hovland SuperCap which replaces the old yellow Hovland Musicap. See info here: http://partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_musicap_main.html

Pic:
(http://s2.postimg.org/reibs3h3p/musicap_c.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/reibs3h3p/)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: kajak12 on June 04, 2014, 08:02:46 PM
These are on ebay now, they look good, anyone heard them

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261495174837?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
If you buy the you can also hear them and get back to us,some of us a looking at 70 years of age before we can get pension (superanuation) so we rely on the retired to spend so we can learn.....
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on June 13, 2014, 08:05:44 PM
I read this here, What do you think.   http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/tc.php   

 In electrolytic capacitors evaporation of the electrolyte reduces capacitance and increases ESR dramatically during the lifetime leading to performance degradation. In professional equipment, frequently shipped in unpressurised aircraft holds, this process is accelerated.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on June 14, 2014, 10:28:29 PM
horrid things electrolytic caps , I'll read the link after a nap.

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: brenden on June 14, 2014, 10:41:57 PM
I have used some of these  large TC  clarity caps in part of the power supplies on my Stax CA-X pro . They sound very good with lots of transparency  but ultimately I preferred the sound without ,as I lost a little warmth  .This should not be misconstrued that these caps are not good ,I simply preferred without in this situation .
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on June 15, 2014, 12:33:25 AM
I have used some of these  large TC  clarity caps in part of the power supplies on my Stax CA-X pro . They sound very good with lots of transparency  but ultimately I preferred the sound without ,as I lost a little warmth  .This should not be misconstrued that these caps are not good ,I simply preferred without in this situation .
After the Melbourne HIFI show our group went to a live unamplified jazz performance, within minutes of the music starting i asked the guys what is the most immediately obvious thing they heard compared to the HIFI shows systems, they all said within seconds the same thing, Warmth. Yes it is so important to keep that warmth. Systems today are usually so cold and bear little resemblance to real unamplified music.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on June 15, 2014, 08:19:20 AM
I have used some of these  large TC  clarity caps in part of the power supplies on my Stax CA-X pro . They sound very good with lots of transparency  but ultimately I preferred the sound without ,as I lost a little warmth  .This should not be misconstrued that these caps are not good ,I simply preferred without in this situation .
Brenen, what was you preference over the Clarity's in the  power supply of the Stax CA-X pro?
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: hedalfa on June 15, 2014, 08:48:03 AM
After the Melbourne HIFI show our group went to a live unamplified jazz performance, within minutes of the music starting i asked the guys what is the most immediately obvious thing they heard compared to the HIFI shows systems, they all said within seconds the same thing, Warmth. Yes it is so important to keep that warmth. Systems today are usually so cold and bear little resemblance to real unamplified music.

Yep, id go further some systems have the all the warmth of cardboard they are dry and sterile. They fail on the emotional engagement factor. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on June 15, 2014, 08:52:29 AM
Midrange body and weight is easy to lose and hard to get back.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: brenden on June 15, 2014, 10:55:47 AM
Just the original electros that are in there .At the moment I have bypassed with an Auricap  .01 1500v and it is wonderful  .

   The Claritys may work good in a higher voltage situation  or in another spot  ,so  don't discount them at all .

      Speaking of capacitor changes ,I replaced an electrolytic capacitor in my Marantz CD94mk2 that was really remarkable . 
   
    I was looking at the circuit one day and realised that the main filter caps were really  top quality ,but the 6800uf  16v  cap that filters the 5v supply to the dacs was just average .This is probably the most important position IMO. I am a fan of the top line Elna capacitors ,so  replaced  with a 6800uf 35v  big can Starget made in  Japan , which unfortunately  are not made any more .It was physically much bigger ,and had pins that had to be bent to install ,but went in ok .  I think this cap is more neutral than the cerafine or silmic . Sort of midway between the two .
       I got gains across the board ,but the biggest gain was in midrange realism and warmth but also clarity at the same time  . Absolutely fantastic ,for anyone looking to upgrade  a CD94 .

   I  haven't used the smaller can Stargets ,so will not assume they can perform in the same manner as the larger ones just yet .
         
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on June 25, 2014, 04:16:19 PM
I am thinking about trying different caps in my phono stage,    it uses 1uf WIMA's on the output.

Obviously VSF's are a consideration.   So I contact Mike L,  and ask for pricing.    Initial response was we can get RS. 

I then went to PartsConnexion, and ask for a quote on 2 x VSF-1uf/400v copper foils.   I got back a response.

Quote
Your total including shipping is $724.00 USD*** LEAD TIME IS 10-12 WEEKS ***

 :o    Ouch.   

:'(    [sighs]
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: data on June 25, 2014, 04:58:25 PM
Wow!

That seems very high compared to before :(
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Tuyen on July 10, 2014, 11:30:11 AM
Pair of Jupiter copper foil paper and wax 0.33uf caps. These are Murray's (mcb) units which he has kindly allowed me to run-in and evaluate them in my amp.

I will try them in budget 300b set amp.  It is currently using a pair of audionote 0.22uf copper foil mylar in oil caps.

(http://i59.tinypic.com/34pc5kh.jpg)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on July 10, 2014, 05:21:18 PM
The Jupiter copper foil paper and wax 0.33uf caps looks tasty. The audionote Mylar are not as good as the earlier paper type. I am interested in the result.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Tuyen on July 11, 2014, 06:07:12 PM
Article by Jon Lo re the Jupiters VS Duelund CAST
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0514/jupiter_copper_foil_paper_wax_capacitor.htm (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0514/jupiter_copper_foil_paper_wax_capacitor.htm)

I'll try them out this weekend  8)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Tuyen on July 24, 2014, 06:07:36 PM
Have put on over 50 hrs on  mcb's Jupiter copper caps now.   Can confirm they are quite nice. I prefer them over the audionote copper mylars as they seem a bit more richer textured/full bodied.  They have great resolution and depth/extension too.    The audionotes maybe a bit more smooth/fluid. only maybe...          For the price, they are worth it in my books.      How do they compare to the much beloved Duelunds?    Can't say.  Never tried duelunds in this amp, on my system at present. 

thumbs up!  ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: mcb on August 18, 2014, 06:55:02 PM
Tuyen dropped around a couple of weekends ago and we (he) removed the previous caps from my pre-amp and put the Jupiters in.

When I originally put the previous caps in, I found a good improvement is detail, however I found the detail came with a harsh edge, particularly with lessor recordings. 

The Jupiters have continued with the improvement with detail and at the same time have taken away the edge that was bugging me.  Good step forward, in my books.

I know my descriptions are pretty basic, but that is me at my eloquent best :D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Jehuty on August 18, 2014, 07:01:53 PM
Thanks for sharing guys! Sounds like a really good sounding cap!  :)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on August 18, 2014, 11:20:02 PM
I have not tried the Jupiter Caps, mainly because the Duelunds VSFs are so good and the system is just right, so I have not bothered to try newer designs. We do need to find cheaper caps that cut it, it will happen. maybe its already Happened. We just need to find them.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on August 19, 2014, 06:30:17 AM
Mcb, your description is not only good,  you've hit on a key attribute.

Harsh and aggressive treble is something I look for when assessing a change (look to avoid). This is one of those things that is very un-natural sounding.  Sibilance rears its ugly head, and seems to be on the majority of recordings!

Quite often, the flip side is losing extension, and the sound becomes rolled off.  We dont want that either.

Top end extension that is smooth and pleasant, is where all the joy is.  Achieving that (is not easy and) makes a huge difference.

Thanks for sharing your experience with these Jupiter caps.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on August 30, 2014, 06:28:47 PM
There is a very reliable duelund capacitor. Well it was till it was not. This lasted about a year running 65 volts. So why did it fail, probably the turn on surge. But with hot filaments, with a B+ switch there should not be a lot of instant voltage. Anyway here is what they look like inside. Thin copper and a very thin film of ? silk with oil resin, any ideas.   
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 30, 2014, 07:18:47 PM
Did the cap actually rupture and end up holed as in the first image or is that you opening it up for inspection?
Was the cap used on your DAC?  I remember Mario fitted a B+ switch to avoid the switch on spike / surge. Hmmm, maybe a note and pictures back to the manufacturer is in order, they are not cheap items.  Maybe also the voltage rating needs to be taken with a pinch of salt...........
. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: zenelectro on August 30, 2014, 08:27:04 PM
There is a very reliable duelund capacitor. Well it was till it's was not. This lasted about a year running 65 volts. So why did it fail, probably the turn on surge. But with hot filaments, with a B+ switch there should not be a lot of instant voltage. Anyway here is what they look like inside. Thin copper and a very thin film of ? silk with oil resin, any ideas.
maybe paraffin wax or oil?. Very good dielectric properties, I believe used in high voltage
I'd like to know what the thin fabric is.
T. 
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: rhlauranna on August 31, 2014, 12:26:19 AM
Sibilance rears its ugly head, and seems to be on the majority of recordings!

would you be so kind and indicate one, two, three... recordings where this is the (emphazised) case for you (please no vinyls), so that I am able to follow ? thanks...
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on August 31, 2014, 07:27:44 PM
If they are being made by hand, it looks like a painstaking timeconsuming job.    No wonder they are only a special order item now.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: omodo on August 31, 2014, 07:37:25 PM
Quote
It consists of aluminium, copper or silver foil and high-density paper, soaked in pure mineral wax, treated with special lacquers made from natural materials and wrapped in paper.

the 'fabric' is paper according to the product description?

Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: zenelectro on August 31, 2014, 09:36:41 PM
If they are being made by hand, it looks like a painstaking timeconsuming job.    No wonder they are only a special order item now.

Oz,

I've been thinking about these VSF's and by the look of Steve's 'dissection' photos, it appears they wind these on
a largish cylindrical mandrel and then squash them flat. If this is the case I think the squashing process would result 
in considerable stress at the corners with the resulting differential movement between layers.

Maybe a good reason why a/ there have been quite a few failures b/ they aren't so keen to continue production
and c/ they sound different than the others.

Just a thought.

Z
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on August 31, 2014, 11:13:50 PM
I've been thinking about these VSF's and by the look of Steve's 'dissection' photos, it appears they wind these on
a largish cylindrical mandrel and then squash them flat
Looking at the photos again,  I can envisage that being the process used. 

So, the squishing could be part of the reliability problem,  but possibly part of their inherent character.  A bit of a dilemna.

I wonder if a perfectly cylindrical version was made (no gap in the middle), with no squishing occuring in the process,  how close it may be in sound?   


Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ochremoon on September 01, 2014, 01:38:53 PM
I wonder if a perfectly cylindrical version was made (no gap in the middle), with no squishing occuring in the process,  how close it may be in sound?

I wonder if that's what they do to make the CAST caps.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: ozmillsy on September 01, 2014, 05:19:24 PM
Could be.  Someone needs to pull apart one of the dodgy leaky ones.  8)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: skc on September 01, 2014, 10:00:51 PM
I have a failed .47 Dueland CAST caps I am happy to donate to dissection if anyone is interested in sharing what they find.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on September 01, 2014, 11:10:22 PM
I have a failed .47 Dueland CAST caps I am happy to donate to dissection if anyone is interested in sharing what they find.
Great idea, I have friends who have the cast, and some have failed. zenelectro is the one to send it to.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: klackto on November 16, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
Did anybody follow up on this?  Would be very interesting to know how the Cast are constructed.
Also, I read somewhere on this forum that someone was trying the Duelund RS ....... is the verdict in yet, are they any good?  (or just RS  :D)
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: Tuyen on January 22, 2015, 06:33:09 PM
DHT Rob's thoughts on the Jupiter copper foil caps.
http://www.dhtrob.com/impressies/jupiter_copperfoil.php (http://www.dhtrob.com/impressies/jupiter_copperfoil.php)

After my +ve experience with a pair in Murray's preamp,  I will use these in the AudioNote 300B KIT1 SET amp I'm currently rebuilding.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on November 18, 2017, 06:17:31 PM
Well I have just added 2 x 4.7uF 1000v Mundorf Supreme silver/gold / oil caps onto the B+ of my 300b preamp, they parallel some 8uF Ducon PIO's.  To say the sound improved is an understatement.  The whole sound tightened up with better micro and macro dynamics.  Even the bass was more tuneful allowing the unraveling of complex passages.  So as smooth as the Ducon PIO's are, they benefit from the other caps greatly.  Not cheap to implement, but I already had them.  I can see why SG uses PP solens in the power supply of the leak 20 stereo etc, much more tactile sound and a most welcome uplift.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: stevenvalve on November 18, 2017, 07:43:48 PM
Well I have just added 2 x 4.7uF 1000v Mundorf Supreme silver/gold / oil caps onto the B+ of my 300b preamp, they parallel some 8uF Ducon PIO's.  To say the sound improved is an understatement.  The whole sound tightened up with better micro and macro dynamics.  Even the bass was more tuneful allowing the unraveling of complex passages.  So as smooth as the Ducon PIO's are, they benefit from the other caps greatly.  Not cheap to implement, but I already had them.  I can see why SG uses PP solens in the power supply of the leak 20 stereo etc, much more tactile sound and a most welcome uplift.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Vintage 8uF Ducon oils are OK but in some cases need a by pass cap, if you can, try to get the English Dubilier 8uf, Preferably with earlier make with the big D and big R, not the american Cornell Dubilier. They will be a significant improvement. Not overly Smooth and polite like the Ducon.  Mundorf Supreme silver/gold / I will try them at some time.
Title: Re: Capacitor Games
Post by: vitavoxdude on November 18, 2017, 09:19:17 PM
Hi Steve
Yes the Big D and big R nitrogols (from the UK) are the one's I am using, 8uF x 2 with a CLCL supply, one for each channel.  The Ducons sound a bit too soft and cuddly without the Mundorf's, it is better all round with them.  A bit like taking your finger off a record playing, pace improves and everything seems to tighten nicely.

I suppose it's dependent on what circuit you are using the Ducons in but as part of my 300B preamp they are a complete no brainer in the B+.  Pretty spendy for the pwr sup though.  Just as well I already had them and run in to.  :)