The KillerDAC Audio forum
Tech Corner => Capacitors => Topic started by: bhobba on March 22, 2014, 01:29:53 AM
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If the Weston products are very good sounding, I have no doubt people will buy regardless of the price. So, why the price should be the problem?
Well one thing you have to remember about Earle is he thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey. So why spend extra on stuff he thinks makes no difference.
I know only too well that he has a very long waiting time and increasing - so I don't think selling his gear is an issue.
Thanks
Bill
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Well one thing you have to remember about Earle is he thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey. Thanks
Bill
Does that mean he thinks all the people that by Duelund Capacitors are delusional. I would like to know Earle's thoughts on this.
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Does that mean he thinks all the people that by Duelund Capacitors are delusional. I would like to know Earle's thoughts on this.
Earle offered to give away a 300B Weston amp, to anyone who could pick the difference between vsf's and Russian pio's (blind tested, on a system of his choice).
His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test, but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps. I walked away from it all for other reasons [shrugs].
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Earle offered to give away a 300B Weston amp, to anyone who could pick the difference between vsf's and Russian pio's (blind tested, on a system of his choice).
His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test, but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps. I walked away from it all for other reasons [shrugs].
Right on the money here. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all. My first experience of this was at Nathans years ago when changes seemed to make almost no difference. Some things in the system chain can so dilute the effects of what would be a positive change if your heard it in a different setup that it makes no effective difference. So when people say there not hearing a difference, it doesn't mean they have cloth ears.
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Earle offered to give away a 300B Weston amp, to anyone who could pick the difference between vsf's and Russian pio's (blind tested, on a system of his choice).
His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test, but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps. I walked away from it all for other reasons [shrugs].
now the water's have subsided a little, what changes would you need to see to the proposed methodology that might resurrect any intellectual curiosity?
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Right on the money here. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all.
surely that is the problem right there? It could then NEVER be shown to you that, in these examples, the caps made no difference.
Your default position is that they do (and what is being tested is whether they do or not) hence any time they are shown not to make a difference you will not accept that because the goal posts will always be shifted because you will fall back to 'b', the system was not set up correctly.
Why? Because 'a' is true, if not then 'b'.
AND you have an inexhaustible list of reasons why (to borrow ozmillsys recent analogy) things are not so balanced at the top of the pyramid. There can never be an end to the contributing factors to 'b'.
once again you set these things up as non-falsifiable, and there is only one outcome your worldview can accept.
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Other builders have similar problems.
I've never had that problem with Elson. Although he holds really strong opinions on most things (predominately from a cost:benefit perspective) he is really open to the idea using "OTT" components. What was interesting to me was when I gave him the Cast caps and Charcroft resistors to use on an amp build for me, after playing around with the oscilloscope etc he went onto describe how he thought the sound would change compared to the Mundorfs I was running previously - and he was spot on. Similarly when I told him I wanted everything direct wired, he completely supported the notion.
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If the difference cant be picked on Stevens axiom system, then we are all delusional.
I dont care for earles amp, or his rules on how the tests must be conducted.
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Terry
This is totally WRONG... I used the word 'If', theres no always or an absolute implied in what I wrote. If you cant write something more constructive then why do dont you go back to mixing concrete.
surely that is the problem right there? It could then NEVER be shown to you that, in these examples, the caps made no difference.
Your default position is that they do (and what is being tested is whether they do or not) hence any time they are shown not to make a difference you will not accept that because the goal posts will always be shifted because you will fall back to 'b', the system was not set up correctly.
Why? Because 'a' is true, if not then 'b'.
AND you have an inexhaustible list of reasons why (to borrow ozmillsys recent analogy) things are not so balanced at the top of the pyramid. There can never be an end to the contributing factors to 'b'.
once again you set these things up as non-falsifiable, and there is only one outcome your worldview can accept.
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oh dear oh dear, a few miscomprehension probs on a sat morning?
I know you do not care for the way he wanted to conduct it Oz, hence my asking what changes you would like to see.
hedalfa, yep, I am well aware of exactly what you wrote, after all I quoted it and commented upon it. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all.
There it is again so that we do not get lost anymore.
Now, quoting from that quote of yours let's answer the following hypothetical question (remember, using only your quote)
"Why might it be there was no difference heard between these caps?" The answer is 'the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable'.
Concrete, wonder where that two pound lump of concrete might be found this morning.
So the point stands, no matter how much you squirm or insult, you simply cannot accept that 'no difference' will be found and have a never ending supply of excuses why not.
And that is down to your rigid worldview that cannot allow any possible alternative explanations.
the very definition of fundamentalism one might say.
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I know you do not care for the way he wanted to conduct it Oz, hence my asking what changes you would like to see.
I believe I gave you my answer.
Do it on Stevens system. And if you want to BT it, then follow the basic (and accepted) ABX methodology.
None of this " AB,,XXXXXXXXXX" get all the x's right or you lose bullsh!t.
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Does that mean he thinks all the people that by Duelund Capacitors are delusional. I would like to know Earle's thoughts on this.
Hi Steve
Its the blind testing thing mate.
Such people claim that people who hear differences are part of a group think phenomena that disappears when done blind.
Many of that ilk, and I am reasonably sure Earle doesn't belong to it because he has posted being able to, for example, pick the differences in amps blind, believe any competently designed equipment sounds the same.
It's unbelievable to I would say virtually everyone on this forum that hears such differences all the time.
Thanks
Bill
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His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test, but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps. I walked away from it all for other reasons [shrugs].
Last I heard it never got off the ground.
To me it was a cautionary tale of just how hard blind tests are to do and why there is a dearth of them.
Mike is thinking of holding some more blind tests of amps and DAC's.
Good luck to him I say if he feels like doing the hard yards bringing it about.
Thanks
Bill
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I believe I gave you my answer.
Do it on Stevens system. And if you want to BT it, then follow the basic (and accepted) ABX methodology.
None of this " AB,,XXXXXXXXXX" get all the x's right or you lose bullsh!t.
ah well, in that case it was MY misunderstanding, sorry.
you might be right in that stevens system is the most capable of showing these differences. And indeed he quite clearly does believe there are definite differences that can be heard on his system.
But if we go further, is there a reason (for example) that you did not say 'do the test on my system'? After all, (presumably) you claim to be able to hear these differences too?
See, as you nominated steves system as 'the one', is it not reasonable to extrapolate that many many other systems (including all of the ones on this forum) will not 'as easily' show these differences? Further, if we accept that, then for the everyday enthusiast who's systems are NOT of the standard of stevens it would in fact be true that those caps won't make a lick of difference?
What use then to them? Surely the funds spent on a cap upgrade that will not make a difference in their system could be better spent elsewhere?
Indeed, would it not be useful data to know what standard of system would benefit? That alone becomes an interesting question.
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oh dear oh dear, a few miscomprehension probs on a sat morning?
I know you do not care for the way he wanted to conduct it Oz, hence my asking what changes you would like to see.
hedalfa, yep, I am well aware of exactly what you wrote, after all I quoted it and commented upon it. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all.
There it is again so that we do not get lost anymore.
Now, quoting from that quote of yours let's answer the following hypothetical question (remember, using only your quote)
"Why might it be there was no difference heard between these caps?" The answer is 'the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable'.
Concrete, wonder where that two pound lump of concrete might be found this morning.
So the point stands, no matter how much you squirm or insult, you simply cannot accept that 'no difference' will be found and have a never ending supply of excuses why not.
And that is down to your rigid worldview that cannot allow any possible alternative explanations.
the very definition of fundamentalism one might say.
Terry J
You haven't made any point, theres multiple qualifiers used in what I wrote and its based on experience not theory.
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Terry J
You haven't made any point, theres multiple qualifiers used in what I wrote and its based on experience not theory.
let's look.
Right on the money here. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all. My first experience of this was at Nathans years ago when changes seemed to make almost no difference. Some things in the system chain can so dilute the effects of what would be a positive change if your heard it in a different setup that it makes no effective difference. So when people say there not hearing a difference, it doesn't mean they have cloth ears.
All qualifiers made regarding the capability of a system being able to expose cap differences highlighted.
The point stands. If you hear no difference it is because the system is not up to it. It will never be because there is no difference.
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Hi Steve
Its the blind testing thing mate.
Such people claim that people who hear differences are part of a group think phenomena that disappears when done blind.
Many of that ilk, and I am reasonably sure Earle doesn't belong to it because he has posted being able to, for example, pick the differences in amps blind, believe any competently designed equipment sounds the same.
It's unbelievable to I would say virtually everyone on this forum that hears such differences all the time.
Thanks
Bill
I think the Bottom line with the unreliability of blind testing, is one big word........ Memory, your individual ability the remember what it sounded like.
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But if we go further, is there a reason (for example) that you did not say 'do the test on my system'? After all, (presumably) you claim to be able to hear these differences too?
Yes there is, because I've never heard your system, so how would I know?
See, as you nominated steves system as 'the one', is it not reasonable to extrapolate that many many other systems (including all of the ones on this forum) will not 'as easily' show these differences? Further, if we accept that, then for the everyday enthusiast who's systems are NOT of the standard of stevens it would in fact be true that those caps won't make a lick of difference?
Don't know, are you asking me to speculate? I could easily hear the difference on my SGR solid state system, when we swapped Solens for VSFs on my front end dac.
Indeed, would it not be useful data to know what standard of system would benefit? That alone becomes an interesting question.
Sure. Any system requires experimentation on what works, and what doesn't work.
If Earle thinks the caps make bugger all difference on his amps, and on his system, that's ok. I'm happy to acknowledge this as fact, as surely he should know what works and doesn't work with his gear? :-X
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no time now oz, but just to clear I never meant MY system, ie that question about 'listen on my system' was meant to have come from you if you follow.
sorry for the confusion.
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Well one thing you have to remember about Earle is he thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey. So why spend extra on stuff he thinks makes no difference.
I know only too well that he has a very long waiting time and increasing - so I don't think selling his gear is an issue.
Thanks
Bill
Here is the thing I have a problem understanding, how does any audio manufacturer including Earle make a top class components if they think and will freely admit (Earle thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey) Does he think the same regarding resistors, say Shinkoh verses jay car. If he does not hear changes in parts via blind testing, does that mean (to him) there are no differences. To me you need to hear these subtle minute changes in sound, as you slowly replace parts in an ordered controlled fashion until you arrived at a combination that ultimately makes magic. I have always had confidence in my own hearing, and never thought for one second, I am imagining an improvement and therefore need to blind test the result. Blind tests are a waste of time, Why, one's individual memory of what did it sound like 10 minutes ago.
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Earle is a SNA sponsor and is therefore a god, He is beyond questioning by us mere mortals.
Oh sorry, wrong bloody forum, forgot where I was. Who cares what Earle says? As far as I am concerned
his products speak for themselves. They are so good they are always available second hand at hugely discounted
prices. Need I say more?
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Your unusual Steve, a lot of people cant hear as you do and relate this to changes made. Yet as you have shared with others the approach can be fostered.
However you can lead a horse to water yet some will never drink :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(.
I was there with Andy and heard the results of replacing a couple of crummy looking resistors out of his leak, the result was a positive difference that was easy to hear. :o :o :o :o :o
'... you need to hear these subtle minute changes in sound, as you slowly replace parts in an ordered controlled fashion until you arrived at a combination that ultimately makes magic'.
Definitely, not everything will work either, its important have a handle on whats happening.
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I was there with Andy and heard the results of replacing a couple of crummy looking resistors out of his leak, the result was a positive difference that was easy to hear. :o :o :o :o :o
Tell him to be a bit patient with the Allen Bradley. They need a bit of time but they're worth the wait :)
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Here is the interesting thing about listening to a system and then commenting on the quality of different tested components. As you all know I am comparing Cast duelunds against hovland music caps. On my big system its easy, because you can hear a fly landing on the speaker box or even a half deaf audiophile coming through the front door, the smallest change via even a piece of wire is audible. But on the second system consisting of a great sounding set of Quad 57s topped with Linauem omnidirectional tweeters, leak stereo 20 Rebuilt with quality hand picked parts and also armed with great valves, stepped resistor volume control, plus a very good sounding expensive professional pioneer DVD player. Now here is the problem when I change parts cables caps resistors it's very much harder to pick exactly what is really going on, there is a equalization of the playing field, differences are somewhat nullified. The differences are there but can we use this information in a real tangible way. So the question needs to be asked, is any of the results even valid, Could anyone build say, incredible sounding amplifiers or preamps if they did not have a great sounding setup, do you need a real sounding system to actually hear the truth. Well all I can say (with this Quad setup) is that i could build a great sounding amplifier to suit the quad 57s. But I could not make with certainty a universal, magical sounding world class amplifier. If we where to do some blind testing of parts, via this system can we really predict anything representative of the truth. Well my answer is, not much chance.
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but just to clear I never meant MY system, ie that question about 'listen on my system' was meant to have come from you if you follow.
Oh, my 'My', not your 'My'. Ok.
My system can demonstrate it, but Stevens is reference class. Should always use a reference system for this kind of thing. IMO
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would agree with the comments re. Weston amps, some of the worst I have heard, amateur level DIY at best - spend your hard earned money elsewhere
IMHO
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Earle is a SNA sponsor and is therefore a god, He is beyond questioning by us mere mortals.
Oh sorry, wrong bloody forum, forgot where I was. Who cares what Earle says? As far as I am concerned
his products speak for themselves. They are so good they are always available second hand at hugely discounted
prices. Need I say more?
I've never had a look inside one or heard one.
So what's he doing wrong - tube amps are not that hard to get right as long as you keep it simple and
use half decent components. From what you are saying here, they aren't even close?
These old Leak amps are a good example, not rocket science, pretty standard circuits and they seem to
sound reasonably good even in stock form.
Z
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I've never had a look inside one or heard one.
So what's he doing wrong - tube amps are not that hard to get right as long as you keep it simple and
use half decent components. From what you are saying here, they aren't even close?
These old Leak amps are a good example, not rocket science, pretty standard circuits and they seem to
sound reasonably good even in stock form.
Z
I have a stock leak stereo 20 here, and when standard, nothing special. With the right bits. Great
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I have a stock leak stereo 20 here, and when standard, nothing special. With the right bits. Great
I think I answered my own question. Just checked out some internal shots of the amps.
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I have a stock leak stereo 20 here, and when standard, nothing special. With the right bits. Great
And you know why they mod up so well? These old leak amps had exceptional quality (Iron) transformers.
I have yet to see anyone throw away the output transformers and replace them with something else.
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Oh, my 'My', not your 'My'. Ok.
I just re-read my post, and it's clear as mud. You said my system, but you meant your system. Whose on 1st? :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg
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did you mean my post (mine) or my post (yours)? :D :D
glad you brought it up again, when you first read it (and thought I was talking about my system) dunno HOW it would have come across! At the very least there would have been raised eyebrows over the idiocy of how I came across.
Timeless classic in any case. I must remember to show my daughters, in case the facebook generation have lost all touch with their history. Hopefully they will know of it, will hang my head in shame as a parent if they do not.
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Oscar(6yo) and I watched it 3 times in a row this morning, we couldn't stop laughing.
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I have always had confidence in my own hearing, and never thought for one second, I am imagining an improvement and therefore need to blind test the result. Blind tests are a waste of time, Why, one's individual memory of what did it sound like 10 minutes ago.
Just to play devils advocate for a second. Why do we think our auditory memory works sighted, but doesnt work so well blinded?
Why is it, that when the blindfold goes on, that our ability to reliably discern (and remember) the subtle nuances is impacted?
Dont get me wrong, I agree with you, but these questions do get thrown at us.
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Just to play devils advocate for a second. Why do we think our auditory memory works sighted, but doesnt work so well blinded?
Why is it, that when the blindfold goes on, that our ability to reliably discern (and remember) the subtle nuances is impacted?
Dont get me wrong, I agree with you, but these questions do get thrown at us.
The blind approach helps some people as it will narrow their attention. Listening isn't as passive act. For those that have either a particular ability, lots of listening practice or a combination of both it may not be needed. For many people it could help, yet many doesn't equal everyone.
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Having participated in Terry's and Aslan's ABX test some years ago, the introduction of blind testing is akin to the physical symptom's of sitting an exam. Doubt, performance anxiety, ability to understand and process information. Initially I was processing the differences as very marginal at best and the sense of surprise on my behalf was seriously concerning as I thought I should be able to hear a greater degree of difference and there was a moment where I contemplated " could this be really the facts".
Then you actually start to listen not to the content but to the shading, the nuance, the decay, the lightness, the interplay and then the differences are there and the signatures of A, B and the switch becomes repeatable and definite and no longer marginal.
Definitely worthwhile and instructive, like going to the edge and looking over.
Cheers and thanks for having me around.
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Good post Guru, I reckon pressure and stress definitely plays a role.