The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Cables => Topic started by: stevenvalve on March 23, 2014, 04:42:34 PM
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My experience has shown me that under no circumstances will I use silver in a system. Silver sounds clear, clean, but also white, bright and harmonically threadbare, worst of all, silver has artificial and anaemic sounding timbre. That last property is in my opinion a death Nell to building a great realistic sounding system. If a system needs a dose of silver flavouring that's telling you something loud and clear. For example if your system is dark thick and lacing transparency, silver acts like a band aid. Sometimes this coloration seems to improve your sound, but ultimately that system will never reach an elite status. In reality Silver is a nice band aid to get a poorly tuned system out of trouble. Copper has all the ying and yang needed to tune a system correctly. If you try various copper types, example, solid core with different diameters and manufactures, multistrands from various manufactures, strand amounts and most importantly gauges. Attributes, Solid core has a full solid, grainless, midrange orientated, quality, with good base weight, but lacking some air and apparent frequency extension. Multistrand has air and a bigger 3 dimensional and layered soundstage, perceived detail and high frequency extension, but with the baggage of possibly sounding grainy and brittle particularly in the high frequency's. I usually use mostly solid core, and in the final tune stage, and try various multistrands types in selected signal path areas, till its right. Copper can and does have the necessary Ying and Yang to cover the complete spectrum. It's up to you and your ears, to just juggle the wire or parts combinations till you are happy with the balance. The bottom line, i have never in 40 years heard a truly brilliant, amazingly real sounding system, wired with or containing anything silver. Silver in a system just never sounds complete. Thoughts gentleman
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Just like there are variations in how copper sounds, the same is true for silver; not all of it sounds the same. I had some locally made silver IC's I used and didn't mind though I'd describe them as lacking texture. I demo'd some annealed silver Japanese offerings and the difference was stark; as was the price! Not only were they clean, but they had palpable layers of texture. Simply fantastic. I was so impressed, I bought another pair to chop up and use throughout the signal path of my amps.
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Just like there are variations in how copper sounds, the same is true for silver; not all of it sounds the same. I had some locally made silver IC's I used and didn't mind though I'd describe them as lacking texture. I demo'd some annealed silver Japanese offerings and the difference was stark; as was the price! Not only were they clean, but they had palpable layers of texture. Simply fantastic. I was so impressed, I bought another pair to chop up and use throughout the signal path of my amps.
Good point. Some audiophiles have told me there is good sounding silver, and that not all silver sounds the same. Is it just a varying degree of OK to good, ultimately does it really sound as completely natural as copper. (Some annealed silver Japanese offerings) this sounds interesting, do you have any info on it.
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Vitavox has been chewing my @rse about using cat5, he uses some type of high quality silver, and feels strongly that I'm giving everyone a bum steer re cat5. I hope he chimes in about this. 8)
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WBT also make sililver phono connectors. Reviews found when run in it in was superior to the cooper.
A small amount of silver may not necessary be the undoing of a system. The silver interconnects worked better with mc step up transformers than cooper when we did a test at Paaul Bakers. That not rulling out cooper could be better, yet for what we tried the silver was better.
Having real silver hand made speaker cables and interconnects I do agree there are tradeoffs in using them.
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(Some annealed silver Japanese offerings) this sounds interesting, do you have any info on it.
The wire I am using is age annealed silver from Kondo in Japan. Individual wires are drawn, polished, then coated and the age annealed. I thought it was effusive bumpkis till I had it in my own system. In fact, I actually only demo'd it to "prove" it was all overrated nonsense. I was wrong.
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The wire I am using is age annealed silver from Kondo in Japan. Individual wires are drawn, polished, then coated and the age annealed. I thought it was effusive bumpkis till I had it in my own system. In fact, I actually only demo'd it to "prove" it was all overrated nonsense. I was wrong.
I'm interested to know more. What did you pull out and replace with this stuff, and what effect does it have (how did the sound change) ?
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I've had Dueland silver foil in silk, Cardas 20awg copper in cotton, some copper ribbon from 47 Labs, and some copper from JPS; the age annealed silver had all the body of the copper wire I tried, but had a clarity and texture the copper lacked - without at all sounding etched like the Dueland solver foil.
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The wire I am using is age annealed silver from Kondo in Japan. Individual wires are drawn, polished, then coated and the age annealed. I thought it was effusive bumpkis till I had it in my own system. In fact, I actually only demo'd it to "prove" it was all overrated nonsense. I was wrong.
Interesting. This is what I tend to think. If you and I tried multiple types of copper in that very spot, including many exotic 99999.00 wires multistrand and solid, I feel we will find a copper wire that will have all the strengths of the silvers, but without the silvers usual down side. There is only one way to find out if this silver wire cuts it. I will get some of this same silver wire, then try it I a critical position. A Question, if you had more of this silver wire and for example rewired your preamp, what do you think would be the result (soundwise).
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I've had Dueland silver foil in silk, Cardas 20awg copper in cotton, some copper ribbon from 47 Labs, and some copper from JPS; the age annealed silver had all the body of the copper wire I tried, but had a clarity and texture the copper lacked - without at all sounding etched like the Dueland solver foil.
What are your favourite capacitors.
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I've always preferred copper on my system. Usually solid core of foil.
Only time I preferred something else was when I was playing around with Western Electric stuff. The WE 597 field coil tweeters and Chinese copy of the WE124B 6L6 based power amps (using IE iron/caps/wiring), I preferred using tin plated copper (Supra Ply 3.4). The lighter/thinner sound from the tin helped to balance out the 'overly rich' WE stuff. Funnily enough, as I did more research on WE gear, discover that lots of the vintage WE wire was tin plated copper. Lots of the vintage WE systems are using tin plated copper for interconnects, speaker and field coil cables.
Apart from that, I've only tried modern silver and never really worked on my system(s).
But in saying that, I have heard a 'vintage' Kondo Ongaku on a variety of speakers now and it being full silver (inc output transformers) is the sweetest integrated amp I have heard. Can be so delicate but then so powerful when needed. I can hear so many inner tonal shades between the notes that it does draw me into the music. I don't feel off in tonal balance when I listen to it. Maybe not as rich in comparison to a nice copper based amp, but still beautiful no less. Perhaps more to some.
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I remember an audio importer and high end hifi shop owner, he told me a few years ago , it seemed everyone went crazy on silver interconnect. He imported tons off this stuff, all the big brands, but he eventually ended up being stuck with most of it, no one wanted it. In the end he could not even give them away.
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That richness, full body presence, seems to be so easy to lose, and hard to get back.
It's really easy to be drawn towards speedy details, but it so often comes at the expense of 'body'.
It's a fine balancing act. The Kondo silver sounds like it has the best of both speed, silky details, and body all at the same time.
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Silver cables implies a generic which exists but tends to bypass cables not that common in their availability or construction. The cables mentioned as Japanese are silver litz construction which puts them in an uncommon basket and therefore having a very distinctive sound compared to non litz silver cables.
There are silver cables designed to balance the tonal and dynamic responses of certain types of electronics, Gryphon being a perfect example.
I will have to continue this commentary at another time, I didn't realise how late it is.
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I have always preferred copper over silver, but that was all silver plated stuff (yuk).
I'm in two minds now as I have a mix of copper and silver used in the IC's I have from Geoff, I'm thinking that the Neotech 7N silver could change me over. I really need to save up for some all 7N silver speaker cables and see what I find.
Will I prefer it over the 7N copper? who knows till i try i guess.
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Hi Steven,
Do youe thoughts still hold true on silver after now hearing the gZero 6 interconnects with silver plugs?
Also regarding % silver content in different solder, you prefer using the solders that have least amount of silver?
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My understanding is the gZero6 IC's use copper wire.
It's often been said to me that copper with a smidgen of silver, can be a nice mix. The harmony plugs being that smidgeon. :)
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Probably does, but looks like it has sliver plugs?
(http://kleinnovations.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/C-IC-KLEI-Essence-gZero6-Ice-500x365-473x330.png)
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Probably does, but looks like it has sliver plugs?
Yes, correct. Copper wire with Silver Plugs = smidgeon of silver. ;D
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True true :D
What are your guys thoughts about TIN? lol.. I think I got a bit in my system :-[
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Hi Steven,
Do youe thoughts still hold true on silver after now hearing the gZero 6 interconnects with silver plugs?
Also regarding % silver content in different solder, you prefer using the solders that have least amount of silver?
The plugs on the cables I listened too had the Harmony®Plug I believe, not silver, not copper, look here
http://kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/harmony-plug/
I use WBT solder, with 4% silver. Is there better, probably but what does better really mean, different . I results are excellent. I do not have the time to try them all.
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Probably does, but looks like it has sliver plugs?
(http://kleinnovations.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/C-IC-KLEI-Essence-gZero6-Ice-500x365-473x330.png)
I have decided to get this cable with straight copper plugs, because copper has the right fundamental's I need, And its easy to tune around. don't get carried away with the attributes of silver, because silvers best characteristics are not what's important.
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The plugs on the cables I listened too had the Harmony®Plug I believe, not silver, not copper, look here
http://kleinnovations.com/kle-innovations-klei-products/harmony-plug/
The plugs on the cable you listened to (ie: gZero6) are "Pure Harmony" version, the pure harmony is "pure silver". I spoke to Craig about this at length.
Pure®Harmony (short for Pure Silver Harmony Phono/RCA Plug)… GROUND and SIGNAL pins are PURE SILVER…
Apparently there is greater transparency, without losing body or texture (which is what we typically expect from silver components). These plugs don't sound like Silver normally sounds, apparently.
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I use WBT solder, with 4% silver. Is there better, probably but what does better really mean, different . I results are excellent. I do not have the time to try them all.
I use that solder too and find it very good, but the flux is messier than most. Do you bother to clean the flux off or leave it?
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If there is residue I clean it of with alcohol.
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The plugs on the cable you listened to (ie: gZero6) are "Pure Harmony" version, the pure harmony is "pure silver". I spoke to Craig about this at length.
Apparently there is greater transparency, without losing body or texture (which is what we typically expect from silver components). These plugs don't sound like Silver normally sounds, apparently.
AFACT, silver gets a bad name from all the silver -plated- cabling / products around.
I'm personally not convinced pure silver is a bad thing. I think it is just -very- neutral.
Maybe neutral doesn't float boats in this neck of the river system, but for recording and monitoring I prefer it over various interpretations
of what is supposed to be rich, full bodied etc etc.
I'm currently looking to make some balanced microphone cables for recording and there are a lot less options around for balanced, even less
for shielded. Looks like might going back to cable making.
I'm all ears if anyone can suggest reasonably priced balanced cables that sound great. They will probably have to be shielded, as some mics (Ribbon) only
OP mV.
T
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I am using a pair of 0.75m Vovox Sonorus XLR cables between xo and pre. I dont know how well they fair with other stuff out there but you are welcome to borrow them if you are interested Terry.
Just let me know :)
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I had always thought silver was an 'audiophile' world thing?
Im pretty sure all of the 'pa' mic/instrument wire i've played with has been shielded copper?
Then again, I know nothing! :'(
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Maybe neutral doesn't float boats in this neck of the river system, but for recording and monitoring I prefer it over various interpretations
of what is supposed to be rich, full bodied etc etc.
Trying to define neutral is a grey area.
Cold, clinical, artificial, micro detailed, anemic, washed out, are all very un-natural attributes. These are characteristics often attributed to silver, and are just another form of colouration in my opinion.
If it 'sounds' natural, then it sounds neutral. Problem is, it's subjective. [Shrugs]
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I love listening to music through a Kondo Ongaku. Its made of nearly all silver! :'(
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I love listening to music through a Kondo Ongaku. Its made of nearly all silver!
I have heard this amp and its not bad, but all silver amps sound, well like there is silver in there, what do you think would happen if you compered it to my 250-245 amp and you thought mine sounded better. My point is i have no silver in my amp, are you saying with silver my 250-245 amp will be better. If silver is better why does my amp go backward soundwise as I install it. What people think is great is only relative to what they have heard.
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That's why I'm scared to listen to your setup Steven! I can't afford rocking horse shxt tubes. I do hope I have the opportunity to listen to your masterpiece one day though.
But for now, ignorance is bliss?! ;D
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Ag gets the thumbs up from me for what it's worth. I have used it for > 25 years before it became popular and used to source it from Johnson Matthey. Soft annealed is easier to use. Audio synthesis made it popular back in the UK and is still cheap for what it brings to the party. Whilst they might not be the best out there they are not over hyped, over priced or oversold.
If your system requires a little pepping up then they can bring some life to a dead sounding 'off' system; in a well tuned system your mileage my vary.
V
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What people think is great is only relative to what they have heard.
;)
Here here Steveo, hence why so many boozo's rave on about something which is really pants :-[[/font]
V
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Extra care needs to be taken with the implementation of silver to get the best out of it .I use soft annealed silver in silk and it sounds great, but only after much r&d.
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If your system requires a little pepping up then they can bring some life to a dead sounding 'off' system; in a well tuned system your mileage my vary.
V
I agree, right on
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One man's dead sounding 'off' system is another man's well tuned system.
One man's well tuned system is another man's dead sounding 'off' system.
Just saying :P
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Extra care needs to be taken with the implementation of silver to get the best out of it .I use soft annealed silver in silk and it sounds great, but only after much r&d.
In my earlier HIFI days I had no dislike or attitude for silver, copper, gold, what ever. I believed the hype like the next man, I craved for some silver because it just had to be better, everyone said so, come to think of it they where mainly the importers, but as I acquired (borrowed) the silver interconnects and listened, all the HIFI goodies where there, Cleaner, clearer, more detail, smooth, extended, at first listen I thought WoW this is amazing, but it soon became apparent that something was missing, what makes instruments sound real. I then realized
i had to disown opinion and just listen to what the Cello said. I have taken silver interconnects to at least 15 audiophile's systems and they all within 10 minutes demanded it be removed.
There is only one thing to do, I have to listen to your type of silver cable, but first you need to listen to the new gZero6. I think they are tremendous, that will be a good yardstick for further discussions. Ps I have also heard gold and I found that to be analytical and heartless. They where gold cartridge's like the A.J. van den Hul grasshopper gold but who knows if that was the gold, or the cartridge.
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One man's dead sounding 'off' system is another man's well tuned system.
One man's well tuned system is another man's dead sounding 'off' system.
Just saying :P
There should not be flavour's, the thing that matters is does your system sound like that Cello or Violin, guitar, or whatever you just heard live, But it is true, some do not care if it sounds like real music. I do, because real is why we are here.
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I know what you mean Steven.
Sorry, was just being a little cheeky.
I look forward to hearing the gZero6 interconnects on Mario's system. :D
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What the gZero6 is made out of is interesting, but apart from the plugs we dont really know, its proprietary. We'd have to open it up to be really sure.
But I say, does it matter? We've already established that different types of silver sounds different. And also that the Pure Harmony plugs are pure silver, and do in fact sound good.
What matters is the result, not what it is made out of.
The type of wire is only relevant when you want to roll your own. It's a fiddly job. Can seem like a good idea at the time, but is time consuming when you dont do them often.
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There should not be flavour's, the thing that matters is does your system sound like that Cello or Violin, guitar, or whatever you just heard live, But it is true, some do not care if it sounds like real music. I do, because real is why we are here.
Id second that BIG TIME..... :)
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Hi Steven ,I would love to listen to the gzero6 . I know what you are saying re silver .It spotlights the upper mids ,lower highs which causes an imbalance ,like a lack of warmth . I think this can be corrected somewhat with careful choice of diameters .
Silver and plastics don't seem to be the ideal partners either .
I am still refining some aspects to my cables ,but have had some personal setbacks which have slowed progress .
Spare "my" time at the moment is devoted to tuning my CD94 mk2 ,and Stax CAX pro ,so that I can enjoy listening after a 6 year hiatus due to a couple of little boys that needed attention .
by the way ,I have owned pure gold cable and it is actually in the opposite tonality to silver ,with copper being in the middle .Gold has awesome bass ,is extremely warm ,and possibly a little polite on top .combination of gold and silver would be wonderful but gold wire is extremely expensive , difficult to work with,and breaks easily.Platinum has incredible detail but lacks warmth of copper .Palladium sits between silver and platinum .I would like to play more with a platinum copper combo one day to see if it could be balanced .Bear in mind that diameters will change the tonality .I just believe silver can be tamed,or at least the gap can be closed a lot and still hear the benefits of silver .
Other components have imbalances from neutral like capacitors and resistors .To use an analogy silver is like a Cerafine cap ,and copper is like a Silmic .Its how we use them that can make or break the sound .Personally I think the Starget is more neutral than either of the ,but that's off the track .
Using annealed silver is critical .hard silver is just bright and irritating .
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Using annealed silver is critical .hard silver is just bright and irritating .
That is good to know, I need to try some.
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Bear in mind that diameters will change the tonality .
Hey Brenden. Can you tell us more about your experience with different diameter wire, when used on IC's. Have you found consistent tonal changes when moving from thicker to thinner, or vice versa? What has been the change in tone?
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Hi Oz , with silver, 24g is probably the most neutral, if you use just one single wire for both positive and negative .Using a thicker wire like a 22g will give you more bass and also less treble .Going thinner ,26g for example will give you a more typical brighter silver sound .
You can use a different sized wire for the positive and negative and you will get a bit of both .say a 22g on negative and a 26g on positive will give a reasonably balanced sound .If you like it warmer ,change the 26g to a 24g .
To get everything ,you need to use a range of diameters .With quality silver, this can get expensive . I don't recommend using larger than 22g or possibly 20g for line level ,as the bass can become too ponderous .
Speaker cable can go larger maybe down to 16g ,but still needs a range of smaller gauges to to maintain frequency balance .
You can see how easily it can get complicated and expensive to get perfect ,especially if you want your cable to be litz style .
In a nut shell thin wires sound brighter ,and thicker wires sound warmer, or have more bass .The amount of combinations can keep you occupied for a long time .
This doesn't seem to apply to gold ,which sounds very warm, even with very thin wire smaller than 30g .
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As a curiosity ,the same comments about gauges also applies to digital cable .
Try it .See what you think .
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Hi brenden, isn't all silver wire annealed in one form or another? Does that mean that all silver plugs are annealed or not annealed?
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No ping , not all silver is annealed.It normally needs to be specified . Plugs also wont be annealed as the silver pin would bend too easily .This would require a modified design .I have done a lot of tinkering on plugs also and have a couple of prototypes ,but nothing settled .Annealed silver bends very easily ,even with thick wire .
Silver for audio also needs to be at least 4 nines pure . 99.99
.
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Thanks brenden, that's consistent with the advise from Steven.
And of course the tone changes with different types of copper aswell. I do find neotech ofccc quite amazing, even in the thicker gauges, the sound just seems to flow unrestricted with neotech and doesn't tend to bloat.
I will be buying some 24awg neotech, so I can compare to the IC I've just made.
It also gets interesting when we start to play with solid core vs stranded. And when it comes to stranded there is no shortage of combinations, to play with for the rest of our lives. :) but I do have a preference for solid core.
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Hi stevenvalve, aren't the Yamamura 5000 ICs stranded ofc copper...
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Hi stevenvalve, aren't the Yamamura 5000 ICs stranded ofc copper...
That is open to debate,
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That is open to debate,
I thought they were tubular copper - or is that the speaker cable.
These days I'm thinking a combination of a few gauges, individually insulated might be worth a try.
However the insulation is certainly an important factor.
I remember completely re wiring a Marshall JTM45 using P2P / turret board, all solid core 0.7mm copper and Teflon insulation.
It looked awesome and had immense detail, but for sure some natural warmth was missing. (See pic)
More recently I was mucking around with an old P2P Marshall 100W and used SC copper 0.7mm with cotton outer / Celanese inner
insulation - I think it may also has some wax in there. Even a moderate amount of this stuff around V1 in the front end made the amp sound very natural.
So for me I'm moving toward cotton type insulation. There are a few variations, one is impregnation with various wax or paraffin products.
As Oz was pointing out It can be somewhat endless!
Good fun though.
Z
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Zen, I found a big difference between Neotech with teflon insulation, compared to Neotech stripped nude and inserted into wider teflon tubing (effectively ensuring an air gap around most of the wire).
For me, the nude approach provides a natural vibrancy that is quite intoxicating. It doesnt sound skewed (warm or cold), just 'free'.
I should try cotten sleeving though, and compare. I have some lying around I got from Mario and never used.
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Now you guys are getting on to it .
Oz ,the Neotech UPOCC is the cream of current commercial wires , both the copper and silver . Large diameter Teflon insulation does work well .I have a mate that wont give my Neotech UPOCC silver cable back ,and that is still insulated .
Neotech wont sell uninsulated wire .It is not their policy .
So the only real option to test the wire with different insulation is to strip it .
Zen,you are closer than you think with your comments .I use a treatment to impregnate the silk or cotton which I don't want to divulge ,as I have sunk a lot of time and money into this .Wax or paraffin would work well also in my opinion .Wire resonates ,and really needs some resonance control .
The Neotech wire goes by the name UPOCC . There are only a couple of companies that are licensed to manufacture it .Furutech equivalent is PCOCC .
The lasting impression of this wire is purity and lack of grain .
I am currently using an imported high quality silver that sounds really nice ,but haven't been able to make an equivalent in Neotech ,as the suppy for the different silver gauges is difficult ,but I do have some ideas .
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I remember completely re wiring a Marshall JTM45 using P2P / turret board, all solid core 0.7mm copper and Teflon insulation.
It looked awesome and had immense detail, but for sure some natural warmth was missing. (See pic)
Fantastic work Zen, I really like it!
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Fantastic work Zen, I really like it!
Many thanks.
FWIW those caps are called Sozo and are basically a modern copy of the old Mullard mustards.
Z
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Now you guys are getting on to it .
Oz ,the Neotech UPOCC is the cream of current commercial wires , both the copper and silver . Large diameter Teflon insulation does work well .I have a mate that wont give my Neotech UPOCC silver cable back ,and that is still insulated .
Neotech wont sell uninsulated wire .It is not their policy .
So the only real option to test the wire with different insulation is to strip it .
Zen,you are closer than you think with your comments .I use a treatment to impregnate the silk or cotton which I don't want to divulge ,as I have sunk a lot of time and money into this .Wax or paraffin would work well also in my opinion .Wire resonates ,and really needs some resonance control .
The Neotech wire goes by the name UPOCC . There are only a couple of companies that are licensed to manufacture it .Furutech equivalent is PCOCC .
The lasting impression of this wire is purity and lack of grain .
I am currently using an imported high quality silver that sounds really nice ,but haven't been able to make an equivalent in Neotech ,as the suppy for the different silver gauges is difficult ,but I do have some ideas .
Bare OCC copper is available at Partsconnexion and also this place http://www.audiyo.com/product_desc2_cables.php?plid=3&cat=19&cat2=177
I'm interested in their conductive sleeving for microphone cables which need to be shielded http://www.audiyo.com/product_desc2.php?plid=4&cat=7&cat2=76
Have fun.
Z
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Thanks Zen.I am aware of that one .Its not Neotech as they assure me they wont entertain selling bare wire.I am aware of a Chinese company supposedly selling OCC wire but as far as I can work out they are not licensed for OCC.I think its probable this is where parts connexion source it from.
The bare wire on ebay is fake .
I will look into audiyo but think it could also be the chinese wire otherwise it would be shouted out if it was furutch or Neotech . Thanks for the tip. I will see what other goodies they have .
Are u making zen clocks still ? If so what do they cost?
Cheers.
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Thanks Zen.I am aware of that one .Its not Neotech as they assure me they wont entertain selling bare wire.I am aware of a Chinese company supposedly selling OCC wire but as far as I can work out they are not licensed for OCC.I think its probable this is where parts connexion source it from.
The bare wire on ebay is fake .
I will look into audiyo but think it could also be the chinese wire otherwise it would be shouted out if it was furutch or Neotech . Thanks for the tip. I will see what other goodies they have .
Are u making zen clocks still ? If so what do they cost?
Cheers.
Will Pm you tomorrow WRT zenclock
cheers
Z
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So the only real option to test the wire with different insulation is to strip it .
It is what I do, but is a royal pain. I'd only do it for one offs.
Zen,you are closer than you think with your comments .I use a treatment to impregnate the silk or cotton which I don't want to divulge ,as I have sunk a lot of time and money into this .Wax or paraffin would work well also in my opinion .Wire resonates ,and really needs some resonance control .
I hadnt thought of resonance, maybe the vibrancy I hear is artificial? Hmmm, thats got me thinking. Lets say you use a wax, is this enough to seal the material? I never used cotton for copper because I was worried about oxidisation. With the tubing, I seal either end.
So for me I'm moving toward cotton type insulation. There are a few variations, one is impregnation with various wax or paraffin products.
Can I ask which ones you are trying?
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Wait a minute, maybe this is why my 20awg neotech is working better than I expected?
Normally I would use 24awg wire for IC signal wire, especially short ICs.
But I needed whip up a pair of ICs, and I didnt have any 24awg neotech on hand. I did have some 20awg, so I used it.
Maybe I am getting the body I need with the thicker gauge wire, while getting the extended detail and speed by stripping it?
Just thinking out loud. I'll get some thinner gauge and test. I'll also play with copper inside cotton without wax, just as a test. Oxidisation aside, I wanna hear what it sounds like.
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Wait a minute, maybe this is why my 20awg neotech is working better than I expected?
Normally I would use 24awg wire for IC signal wire, especially short ICs.
But I needed whip up a pair of ICs, and I didnt have any 24awg neotech on hand. I did have some 20awg, so I used it.
Maybe I am getting the body I need with the thicker gauge wire, while getting the extended detail and speed by stripping it?
Just thinking out loud. I'll get some thinner gauge and test. I'll also play with copper inside cotton without wax, just as a test. Oxidisation aside, I wanna hear what it sounds like.
Oz,
The cotton insulation is from old guitar amp wire. It's cotton outer / celanese (whatever that is) inner. The Celanese looks pretty much like cotton but must be some woven
synthetic stuff - I don't know.
Yes oxidisation is a concern and I was wondering if it's worth trying Neotech OCC magnet wire which has a very thin layer of insulation. Then cotton. The other option is to impregnate
the inner layer with wax or parrifin, however I like the dry cotton idea as it is much closer to 'air' dielectric. Mind you dielectric properties of parrifin are very good... but air is better.
Beware - All this wire stuff sends you crazy.
cheers
Z
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Lol, wire stuff?? The whole audio caper sends you crazy. It never freaking ends. :P 8)
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I seriously think you guys are crazy! Spending so much time/effort on something that can so easily go 'off'!
Say you spend months finding the perfect gauge wire so that a few reference tracks you have chosen have perfect tonal balance. Then you discover a new track that you really like and decide to add it to your reference collection. Thing is, this new track is mastered to sound more 'full' and 'weighty' and than your previous tracks and blows the tonal balance of your system all out wack. What do you do then? Go through the whole gauge/insulation/length/plug cycle again?
Or am I incorrect in my example above and in fact there no such thing as being too tonally 'full' or 'weighty'? (If you know what I mean)
Sorry to interrupt the program. Just Curious! :-*
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Yes T, running in circles chasing your tail is a concern.
Tuning your system does get to that point. Where we are now debating different source music.
If thats where you are, you know you're pretty close.
An important thing to note, is the choice of reference tracks is critical. Too many people tune their systems around freaking sh1t recordings. [Note: I know this first hand, because alot of the music I like is sonic sh1te, haha] :P
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Me too. But I just love lots of shxt mastered music. Lol
It prob explains why I haven't fussed too much with the idea of cable tuning in the past. No point with crap reference recordings! :'(
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I joined up here because you are all crazy . ;D
Anyway , not much different to obsessing over a capacitor or resistor ,eh.
Every tiny part that makes up a stereo system adds its own distortion. To achieve the ultimate in musical enjoyment, each and every source of distortion has to be reduced to its bare minimum .
Knowing the relationship of the strand diameters to the overall sound gives you the ability to optimise the frequency balance .Most audiophiles would likely voice their cables in the neutral range anyway .The trick is knowing how to do it .Through many observations years ago I began to notice a subjective relationship with diameters to frequency .
Getting the right tonal balance through the frequencies is only one of many parameters you have to get right to make a great cable .Purity ,fluidity, soundstage, presence ,solidity of image, detail ,depth and probably many more .These can only be optimised by reducing distortion from the transmission through the wire .
Capacitance from the dielectric is a major contributor ,static electricity from plastics ,dielectric absorption ,resonance in wires ,the crystal boundaries in the wire ,the surface finnish of the wire ,the hardness of the metal ,etc. all add some form of distortion.
If you reduce all distortions from each part in the audio chain ,you should be able to enjoy more albums rather than less .If not you might be doing something wrong .The wire is just one part of the chain .
I have had many occasions where I came to like a track that used to annoy me ,after I reduced some objectional distortion in the chain .
Much of the music I listen to isn't "audiophile recorded" music ,as I find a lot of it bland and soulless .I certainly wouldn't tune my system around a small group of audiophile CDs at the expense of the rest of my collection . My goal is to make all of my music sound as good as it possibly can .
Cheers ,B
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I joined up here because you are all crazy . ;D
Anyway , not much different to obsessing over a capacitor or resistor ,eh.
Every tiny part that makes up a stereo system adds its own distortion. To achieve the ultimate in musical enjoyment, each and every source of distortion has to be reduced to its bare minimum .
Knowing the relationship of the strand diameters to the overall sound gives you the ability to optimise the frequency balance .Most audiophiles would likely voice their cables in the neutral range anyway .The trick is knowing how to do it .Through many observations years ago I began to notice a subjective relationship with diameters to frequency .
Getting the right tonal balance through the frequencies is only one of many parameters you have to get right to make a great cable .Purity ,fluidity, soundstage, presence ,solidity of image, detail ,depth and probably many more .These can only be optimised by reducing distortion from the transmission through the wire .
Capacitance from the dielectric is a major contributor ,static electricity from plastics ,dielectric absorption ,resonance in wires ,the crystal boundaries in the wire ,the surface finnish of the wire ,the hardness of the metal ,etc. all add some form of distortion.
If you reduce all distortions from each part in the audio chain ,you should be able to enjoy more albums rather than less .If not you might be doing something wrong .The wire is just one part of the chain .
I have had many occasions where I came to like a track that used to annoy me ,after I reduced some objectional distortion in the chain .
Much of the music I listen to isn't "audiophile recorded" music ,as I find a lot of it bland and soulless .I certainly wouldn't tune my system around a small group of audiophile CDs at the expense of the rest of my collection . My goal is to make all of my music sound as good as it possibly can .
Cheers ,B
You are certainly one of us Brenden. Some would think we are crazy, well that's what most women think about us. They really do think we are insane and after talking to them about our hobby, I can see there point of view. I even know male audiophiles who think, how can a different type of wire really make any difference.
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Nice brenden! I like your explanation. ;D
Have you found if using the shortest possible length of wire in every case to be the best for minimising these distortions? Or has there been cases where actually adding to the length of a particular wire helped?
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Tuyen,
Here's one in response to that question.
I got a 2.0 m length of some power cable to experiment with on my dac and transport.
I put approx500 hours on the cable ( as it sounded like crap when brand spnrky new) and ran it on my transport.
It worked superbly!!
As I only need a 1m power cable I cut it in half and plonked the plug back on the end and put it back in.
Dropped its guts.
Let it run for a while with no change.
SO... Got some more of the cable and made another longer cable and lo and behold.... Back to what I first heard.
So the moral for me was that shorter, whilst in theory should be better, is not necessarily so.
As Brenden commented ( same thoughts exactly as Steve and me), an audio is just the whole of a bunch of individually flavored/coloured parts.
Ideally, try and keep all items as neutral as possible, then add a pinch of salt and a shake of pepper to suit.
Cheers
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SO... Got some more of the cable and made another longer cable and lo and behold.... Back to what I first heard.
So the moral for me was that shorter, whilst in theory should be better, is not necessarily so.
Hey Rawl, have you had the same experience with interconnects? Is it predictable, the change? Genuine questions. I'd hate to think we cant predict what the sound will be, and every spot in the system is subject to endless experimenting on length. What a nightmare. ???
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I was going to make exactly the same comment as Rawl , and specifically on power cable .
Many power cables are designed to filter rf and possibly magnetic fields .If you take a kimber power cable and shorten it it actually reduces the effectiveness.
With interconnects I feel that the quality of the conductors and dielectric has more affect than the ultimate length of the cable , within reason .I like to keep interconnects below 1.5m and normally use 1m .
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Interesting.. (and quite scary at the same time!)
'Neutral' as in subjectively neutral I'm guessing? Or can it be quantitised somehow? How do you guys determine what is 'neutral' when every thing in the chain has its own 'flavour'?
Are the tonal balance/'flavour' of the reference tracks usually used when doing comparisons considered in the overall conclusion?
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Anyone kind enough to lend me a few high quality power cables (of different lengths) so I am able to test on my system? Curious to find out if my hearing, system and/or musical preferences are good enough to show worthwhile differences. Not keen to spend $$$ on high-end power cords then chop them up to find out they sound worse than before. lol
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Anyone kind enough to lend me a few high quality power cables (of different lengths) so I am able to test on my system? Curious to find out if my hearing, system and/or musical preferences are good enough to show worthwhile differences. Not keen to spend $$$ on high-end power cords then chop them up to find out they sound worse than before. lol
Its not a reason not to get silver but I know from RCA sockets that the coating is thin. One amp I bought the owner had fitting silver sockets at great expense, the platting was stuffed, so I replaced with wbt copper. You dont get much silver and if your pluging things in and out then silver may not be such a good idea.
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Hey Rawl, have you had the same experience with interconnects? Is it predictable, the change? Genuine questions. I'd hate to think we cant predict what the sound will be, and every spot in the system is subject to endless experimenting on length. What a nightmare. ???
Millsy,
No I have not.
As long as the construction of the I/c gives decent immunity to noise interference then the smallish change in length from, say 1/2 to 11/2 m seems to be of little relevance.
It ten comes down to intelligent routing to keep them away from noise sources as much as is possible.
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I was going to make exactly the same comment as Rawl , and specifically on power cable .
Many power cables are designed to filter rf and possibly magnetic fields .If you take a kimber power cable and shorten it it actually reduces the effectiveness.
With interconnects I feel that the quality of the conductors and dielectric has more affect than the ultimate length of the cable , within reason .I like to keep interconnects below 1.5m and normally use 1m .
Brenden,
Agree on both points.
Re the power cable, it is off-the-roll so not a completed cable of a given length.
Hence my reason for sharing the experience.
So the experimentation can be interesting.... and a little hair-depleting perhaps?
Re interconnects I agree that conductor, dielectric, and geometric factors seem to be more significant than the actual length.
The factors that affect what is "within reason" could get a little interesting.
Source and target Impedances, ambient electrical noise, effective shielding of cable construction, per-unit length impedance factors etc etc
You have obviously done some decent experimenting in this area.
Need the number for a shrink??
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Brenden,
Agree on both points.
Re the power cable, it is off-the-roll so not a completed cable of a given length.
Hence my reason for sharing the experience.
So the experimentation can be interesting.... and a little hair-depleting perhaps?
Re interconnects I agree that conductor, dielectric, and geometric factors seem to be more significant than the actual length.
The factors that affect what is "within reason" could get a little interesting.
Source and target Impedances, ambient electrical noise, effective shielding of cable construction, per-unit length impedance factors etc etc
You have obviously done some decent experimenting in this area.
Need the number for a shrink??
Heat shrink :)
WRT shielding, many hi end cables I have seen are actually unshielded.
In fact most hi enders seem to have a fear of shielding.
One solution is run a shield and 2 conductors, earth the shield at 1 end only so it carries
no signal return current, use the conductors for hot / cold.
WRT shielding that carbon loaded nylon sheath looks pretty good.
Z
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Heat shrink :)
WRT shielding, many hi end cables I have seen are actually unshielded.
In fact most hi enders seem to have a fear of shielding.
One solution is run a shield and 2 conductors, earth the shield at 1 end only so it carries
no signal return current, use the conductors for hot / cold.
WRT shielding that carbon loaded nylon sheath looks pretty good.
Z
Z,
My experiences with building cables suggest that unshielded is sonically superior as long as you do not ntroduction a noise induction issue as a consequence.
Shielded cables I have found to sound slower on transient attack, and have reduced decay characteristics.
Unshielded sound less dynamically constrained I have found.
C
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No I have not.
As long as the construction of the I/c gives decent immunity to noise interference then the smallish change in length from, say 1/2 to 11/2 m seems to be of little relevance.
It ten comes down to intelligent routing to keep them away from noise sources as much as is possible.
Cool, that's a relief. :)
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Heat shrink :)
WRT shielding, many hi end cables I have seen are actually unshielded.
In fact most hi enders seem to have a fear of shielding.
One solution is run a shield and 2 conductors, earth the shield at 1 end only so it carries
no signal return current, use the conductors for hot / cold.
WRT shielding that carbon loaded nylon sheath looks pretty good.
Z
What is sometimes overlooked is the plugs themselves. I know one guy in Canberra, who has really high efficiency speakers, he had his amp back to Pat Turner a few times to reduce noise. The problem was eventually traced to the in his ICs he was using, looked like it was making a good contact when it wasn't. Different plug, magic no noise 8) 8) 8). He was real happy!! Van den hull usually fit good plugs, but don't fit well on all rca sockets :'(, they need taller ones to make full connect. Okay on wbt however.
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Z,
My experiences with building cables suggest that unshielded is sonically superior as long as you do not ntroduction a noise induction issue as a consequence.
Shielded cables I have found to sound slower on transient attack, and have reduced decay characteristics.
Unshielded sound less dynamically constrained I have found.
C
Mr Rawl,
My question is though:
a) are you hearing the effects of a shield that is in the return current path of unbal IC (IMO a nono)
b) are you hearing the effects of the shield to active capacitance
c) maybe you even like some of the additional rubbish that is picked up from unshielded
d) all or part combinations of above
I always try to isolate these different effects so you know what is causing what. It takes time, can be
frustrating but ultimately helps with moving forward.
My gut feeling is a one ended terminated/grounded shield made from that large dia conductive Nylon sheath
would be superior to none, provided the capacitance is low enough and the correct dielectric is used, probably
cotton.
I'm going to make a decent mic cable using this method. The good thing with mic cables is they are fully balanced
+/- so theoretically no current return path in shield. Prolly have to use a drain wire in shield though for phantom power current.
ZZZZ
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I'm all ears if anyone can suggest reasonably priced balanced cables that sound great. They will probably have to be shielded, as some mics (Ribbon) only
OP mV.
T
Try Van Damme cable: http://www.van-damme.com/studio.html
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Try Van Damme cable: http://www.van-damme.com/studio.html
What is different / better about this cable?
Z
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The price (low) and the sound (superb).
Isn't that what you are looking for?
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The price (low) and the sound (superb).
Isn't that what you are looking for?
If you do a search on various pro forums you'll get recommendations for cables that 'sound superb'
which have wide and varied construction. From silver plated to cheap and cheerful Carol 8014, Canare.
Gothum, Klotz, Mogame etc etc.
So again - in view of all the discussion here - why does this cable sound better? The construction looks
pretty much the same as dozens of other pro twisted pair.
What have you compared it to, using what equipment etc etc.
Thanks,
Z
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The price (low) and the sound (superb).
Isn't that what you are looking for?
It sure is, the problem is usually system synergy, but it could be a good weapon for the armoury.
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The price (low) and the sound (superb).
Isn't that what you are looking for?
Shame this wasn't the case re superb Valves... :(