The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Cables => Topic started by: fallsaudio on September 21, 2014, 02:59:17 PM
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;D
Well after many many month of stuffing with types of wire , cable , plug and sockets type I think I have found the right balance. I have come up with a CYRO ( two types) mains plug with a RED copper and IEC connector. The cable there are many types that look the same but do not sound the same . I have had positive fed back on the cable I have put out in the field for testing. There are three different type I have made , All sound great and all have different flavors . Each cable use in a different position will give a different result.
Most of us have discovered that a peace of wire is not just a peace of wire , I will let you all know what the final outcome is from the final testing goes :D
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Keen to know more when ready Paul :)
Will you be sharing the specifics for us to make our own, or will you be selling these cables?
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Most of us have discovered that a peace of wire is not just a peace of wire
And for those that have not, at least stating it as nicely as you have should ensure peace between the camps :D
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Interesting topic.
My experiences about peaces (sic) of wire is that different outcomes are more about the total application of the wire in situ
a 3-core power cable is the combination of many things eg:
Primarily, the cross-section, individual insulators/shielding, each core's proximity to each other, twisting, the outer insulators/shielding, the proximity of the cable to other things that may affect it eg RFI
IME when & if cables sound different, it is for the above reasons more than anything else. YMMV.
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If a piece of wire (or an assembled cable) has the same (or similar) influence on the sound of different systems, then the differences are likely to be more than environmental.
This is another reason why I like to crosscheck the cables I make on other systems, especially systems that I am familiar with.
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Paul Baker recently gave me the opportunity to trial three of his new Power cables in my system.
I had a chance to trial them in a variety of configurations over a few days.
At the time of testing I didn’t know the names or prices of the cables. I have since learned that I listened to:
1. The Marlin
2. The Maudin
3. The Bermuda.
I’ve rated them in that order as well.
I compared the three cables to each other as well as a stock $10 cord.
1. I found The Marlin to be the best here. The music sounded beautiful and open in comparison to the stock cord. The music was more defined, refined and easier to listen to.
2. I thought the Maudin was about 80% as good as the Marlin. Much better than the stock cable and with the same attributes as the Marlin but just not quite as good. It was sweet though and certainly wasn’t doing anything wrong.
3. The Bermuda didn’t work for me on my system at all. I really didn’t like it. It was dry and etched and lacked any beauty or openness. In fact I probably preferred the stock cord which in itself sounded boring flat and lifeless in comparison to the Marlin and the Maudin.
I managed to listen to the cables in a variety of configurations.
a. On a Wadia transport to a Thor power conditioner.
Wadia was connected to a Kdac via i2s. Amplification was an Audio Research ref 5 pre and ref 110 amp.
b. On the Thor to wall mains. Same components as above. All components connected to the Thor.
c. On a Bryston cd player which was connected to an Integra processor. Amplification was an Arcam 888 - 7 channel power amp
d.From Marios EL34 amp to Thor. Source was the Wadia and Kdac.
e. From Marios EL34 amp to wall mains with Wadia and Kdac connected to Thor.
I pretty much got similar results on all configurations but the clearest and bestest result was in the last configuration. The Audio research amps sounded better connected to the Thor but Marios EL34 amp was clearly better when connected directly to the mains.
Now for the disclaimer. – Some limiting factors need to be taken into account here.
1.The cables were not given any time to bed in or settle for each changing. This was due to time restrains and the want of a quicker A-B comparison.
2.I was the only person listening.
3.Cables were run in for around 400 hours before testing but additional run in time could seriously change my findings, esp on the Bermuda.
4.There was no group or blind testing done so illusion and audio psychosis needs to be well and truly factored in.
5.Speakers on all testing were my pair of VAF i93MK2's. My system has its limitations obviously and these need to be taken into account.
6. What I like in audio playback is often very different to other peoples ideas of quality playback so it would not suprise me in the slightest if the masses find they have contrasting results.
I have since purchased the Marlin and the Maudin as I was very impressed with what they bought to the table for me but I am sending the Bermuda back. I have also bought another two Marlins.
There are no doubt loads of other limiting factors at work here and when I think of them I'll add them to this list. I treated this exercise as a bit of fun and a learning experience. The end result for me will be a lighter wallet but a better sounding system. Value for money for me here is a 10/10. These are very affordable upgrades IMHO.
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To All .
After reading the debate on SNA about Falls Audio power cables , I want it known that I have been working for quite a while on finding suitable plugs which comply with Australia standards. I have found a couple of plugs but I am unable to fit the large cable and sheath through the back of the plug as the two add up to being about 13.5 mm with the heat shrink . The next point to bring out is the test one I have made with out the sheath sounds quite good but has lost some of its magic. I will inform all when I have found the plugs ;).
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Just had a quick look at the Snotty Nosed Arsholes fourum and yep, nothing has changed there.
It is the same old 'holes defending the sponsors interest as usual. These guys are prolly the same arshoels that told
us we need toxic and dangerous mercury vapour fluorescent light globes at $10 each as a 79 cent globe wastes power.
The Australian Standards are a worldwide joke, written by minority lobby groups with vested financial interests.
God forbid using non compliant plugs made in China. Do you really think Clipsal make their plugs in Australia...Get real.
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just justifies selling illegal power cords then.
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just justifies selling illegal power cords then.
Just about all DIY stuff is illegal.
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maybe.
is this a commercial power cord?
if so, what is the relevance?
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maybe.
is this a commercial power cord?
if so, what is the relevance?
This is true, because it is commercial not DIY, Paul needs to make it legal.... If his cable causes a fire he may be sued. I think solid core wire (outside of the inner wall) is illegal in Australia. Almost all commercial power cords made via the big players then brought to Australia are illegal. This is one reason audio connection stopped selling power cords. Anyone know, my knowledge on this matter is near nil.
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Hey Paul, finding Aussie plugs that take thick cables is a challenge. I do like Furutech plugs, but they are bloody expensive.
http://www.fallsaudio.com.au/shop (http://www.fallsaudio.com.au/shop)
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This is true, because it is commercial not DIY, Paul needs to make it legal.... If his cable causes a fire he may be sued. I think solid core wire (outside of the inner wall) is illegal in Australia. Almost all commercial power cords made via the big players then brought to Australia are illegal. This is one reason audio connection stopped selling power cords. Anyone know, my knowledge on this matter is near nil.
Very unlikely a fire would happen they are well terminated. Cant say that about some other cables where the plug worked loose.
One of the issues is the Australian standard on insulation on the earth prong, many other countries don't have this standard. Paul Baker is investigating though he tried another legal plug recently and it wasn't as good as the current combination.
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Hey Paul, finding Aussie plugs that take thick cables is a challenge. I do like Furutech plugs, but they are bloody expensive.
http://www.fallsaudio.com.au/shop (http://www.fallsaudio.com.au/shop)
That's the whole point Paul Baker was trying to give people access to cables at affordable prices that give good results.
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Very unlikely a fire would happen they are well terminated. Cant say that about some other cables where the plug worked loose.
One of the issues is the Australian standard on insulation on the earth prong, many other countries don't have this standard. Paul Baker is investigating though he tried another legal plug recently and it wasn't as good as the current combination.
I haven't posted on this issue yet ,and while I really like the quality of the MS audio plugs on Ebay from Sunnytoto ,they are unfortunately missing the insulation on the live prongs to make them legal .I had considered sending him an email to alert him to this oversight ,because they are doing a great job selling parts for very good prices that can benefit us all .I am sure this oversight could be rectified fairly easily and to gain Austraian approval for their plugs .
This issue of the insulation is very dear to me ,as my then baby son was very close to being electrocuted about 5 years ago by uninsulated pins on a 240v plug to the television .
On this occasion his life was saved by an Earth-leakage Circuit Breakers (ELCB). He screamed and all the power went out after he had dislodged the plug and touched the live prongs with his tiny fingers .If the place I was living in didn't have an ELCB ,I have no doubt he would not be with us today .Electrical safety is of paramount importance to DIY guys ,both for your own safety ,your familys safety ,and also the safety of people who may end up with equipment that has been built or modified by any of us .Sometimes its worth doing a safety audit on gear you are working on ,or getting another mate with experience to do this too .
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Well said Brenden.
Spending more on Furutechs (while expensive compared to other plugs) is relatively fark all, compared to the idiot money we spend on other audio stuff. Reality check people.
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I haven't posted on this issue yet ,and while I really like the quality of the MS audio plugs on Ebay from Sunnytoto ,they are unfortunately missing the insulation on the live prongs to make them legal .I had considered sending him an email to alert him to this oversight ,because they are doing a great job selling parts for very good prices that can benefit us all .I am sure this oversight could be rectified fairly easily and to gain Austraian approval for their plugs .
This issue of the insulation is very dear to me ,as my then baby son was very close to being electrocuted about 5 years ago by uninsulated pins on a 240v plug to the television .
On this occasion his life was saved by an Earth-leakage Circuit Breakers (ELCB). He screamed and all the power went out after he had dislodged the plug and touched the live prongs with his tiny fingers .If the place I was living in didn't have an ELCB ,I have no doubt he would not be with us today .Electrical safety is of paramount importance to DIY guys ,both for your own safety ,your familys safety ,and also the safety of people who may end up with equipment that has been built or modified by any of us .Sometimes its worth doing a safety audit on gear you are working on ,or getting another mate with experience to do this too .
There are people on this site that have no fuses in their equipment because of the effect on the sound. Some people like Pat Turner want to add protection circuits to all the amps they make. Yep he has had plenty of amps catch fire in for service, I have seen some. Id be looking at amps if I was concerned about safety not just cables. Theres a lot of dimensions to this issue. On safety grounds we would be better off with 100 or 120v instead of 240volts, those pushing Australian standards could consider this as well.
Yep safety audit on everything not just the cables. If your just focusing on just them you may be over looking stuff.
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;D
Well after many many month of stuffing with types of wire , cable , plug and sockets type I think I have found the right balance. I have come up with a CYRO ( two types) mains plug with a RED copper and IEC connector. The cable there are many types that look the same but do not sound the same . I have had positive fed back on the cable I have put out in the field for testing. There are three different type I have made , All sound great and all have different flavors . Each cable use in a different position will give a different result.
Most of us have discovered that a peace of wire is not just a peace of wire , I will let you all know what the final outcome is from the final testing goes :D
Copper, excellent....this is what I needed to know.
Very well priced also.
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;D
Well after many many month of stuffing with types of wire , cable , plug and sockets type I think I have found the right balance. I have come up with a CYRO ( two types) mains plug with a RED copper and IEC connector. The cable there are many types that look the same but do not sound the same . I have had positive fed back on the cable I have put out in the field for testing. There are three different type I have made , All sound great and all have different flavors . Each cable use in a different position will give a different result.
Most of us have discovered that a peace of wire is not just a peace of wire , I will let you all know what the final outcome is from the final testing goes :D
Copper, excellent....this is what I needed to know.
Very well priced also.
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The Australian Standards are a worldwide joke, written by minority lobby groups with vested financial interests.
God forbid using non compliant plugs made in China. Do you really think Clipsal make their plugs in Australia...Get real.
Interesting rant gamve
Have you actually been involved in applying for any products to be 3rd party approved to Appendix B of ASNZS-4417.2, ASNZS-3100 etc...
Based on your rant, I presume not.
I have, and electrical safety standards exist for a reason.
They may get in your way, but they have also probably also stopped your house burning down, and stopped you from dying from electrocution.
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Interesting rant gamve
Have you actually been involved in applying for any products to be 3rd party approved to Appendix B of ASNZS-4417.2, ASNZS-3100 etc...
Based on your rant, I presume not.
I have, and electrical safety standards exist for a reason.
They may get in your way, but they have also probably also stopped your house burning down, and stopped you from dying from electrocution.
probably also stopped your house burning down, and stopped you from dying from electrocution.
Gee Emm
As you seem to know, please explain how??
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Interesting rant gamve
Have you actually been involved in applying for any products to be 3rd party approved to Appendix B of ASNZS-4417.2, ASNZS-3100 etc...
Based on your rant, I presume not.
I have, and electrical safety standards exist for a reason.
They may get in your way, but they have also probably also stopped your house burning down, and stopped you from dying from electrocution.
No I have have not been involved with manufacturing electrical goods that need inspecting by a standards authority. I do however have a hefty bill
I have to pay each and every year for inspection of all our electrical workshop and office equipment. In the five or so years that we have been doing
this safety audit our tech has found a couple of serious issues. Only one being a potential lethal issue a faulty earth leakage protection device. I agree
that safety is the most important home/workplace issue but I also believe we need to be protected from the parasites that have jumped on the safety
bandwagon and plague business and government with their incessant and unnecessary propaganda. As a side note, we have never had an issue with
power cords and ours get dragged across work-sites, workshop concrete floors and generally abused to hell.
My question is that we are looking at home built power cables that will be handled gently/lovingly, and used very carefully (no bending or coiling please)
in your household application. The cables should be carefully constructed (no we don't want to electrocute ourselves and some of us are not morons) and I
suspect built to a very high standard that makes the Australian Standard that allows cheap sh!t Approved Chinese cables to be sold at every hardware shop a bloody joke.
Have you not seen the recall rates on all this so called AS Approved Garbage. The standards mean next to nothing and obviously do not guarantee user safety
These standards are the result of safety industry lobby groups gone mad. I wonder when certification of the office coffee cup will start.
Iwanna turn that -2 into a -102
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No I have have not been involved with manufacturing electrical goods that need inspecting by a standards authority. I do however have a hefty bill
I have to pay each and every year for inspection of all our electrical workshop and office equipment. In the five or so years that we have been doing
this safety audit our tech has found a couple of serious issues. Only one being a potential lethal issue a faulty earth leakage protection device. I agree
that safety is the most important home/workplace issue but I also believe we need to be protected from the parasites that have jumped on the safety
bandwagon and plague business and government with their incessant and unnecessary propaganda. As a side note, we have never had an issue with
power cords and ours get dragged across work-sites, workshop concrete floors and generally abused to hell.
My question is that we are looking at home built power cables that will be handled gently/lovingly, and used very carefully (no bending or coiling please)
in your household application. The cables should be carefully constructed (no we don't want to electrocute ourselves and some of us are not morons) and I
suspect built to a very high standard that makes the Australian Standard that allows cheap sh!t Approved Chinese cables to be sold at every hardware shop a bloody joke.
Have you not seen the recall rates on all this so called AS Approved Garbage. The standards mean next to nothing and obviously do not guarantee user safety
These standards are the result of safety industry lobby groups gone mad. I wonder when certification of the office coffee cup will start.
Iwanna turn that -2 into a -102
hi gamve
I feel your pain, as the company I work for has to deal with similar problems.
We perform all our electrical plant & equipment testing in-house, which greatly reduces our cost to comply with electrical safety requirements.
The issue of safety recalls for most goods has IMO always been that the marketplace has to identify the failure to comply, rather than the manufacturer/importer/distributor ensure all shipments of goods are 'up to spec' before distribution.
Also, in many instances, once the first batch is approved, subsequent batches don't comply, and possibly were never intended to.
Even when companies get caught, there is insufficient penalty to them IMO.
In my view, this is not the fault of any standard, rather the lack of enforcement to the required standard. Particularly where safety is concerned.
Babies die in nonconforming cots, children choke on unsafe toys, houses burn down because of unsafe electrical products, people die unecessarily.
But not as many as years gone by. This is in some way due to better safety standards.
IMV, we need 'em. Coz unscrupulous people would do even more untold damage to faceless people, ie the public.
Also, unfortunately, sometimes Joe Public also needs to be protected from himself.
Never underestimate how much damage an idiot can do, nor an unscrupulous person.
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This is true, because it is commercial not DIY, Paul needs to make it legal.... If his cable causes a fire he may be sued. I think solid core wire (outside of the inner wall) is illegal in Australia. Almost all commercial power cords made via the big players then brought to Australia are illegal. This is one reason audio connection stopped selling power cords. Anyone know, my knowledge on this matter is near nil.
It's an interesting topic as invariably a lot of us designers / builders can fall prey to some sort of standards compliance.
AS/NZS 3191:2008 covers electric flexible cords and states that no individual wire shall exceed a diameter of 0.31mm
However it will depend on what the cable is actually sold as / what it's intended use is.
One -possible- way to get around this is to specify for permanent installation use only. You can't control if your customers
are using your products contrary to design intent. :)
Otherwise start looking for small conductor cable that sounds good.
Do you run as a Pty Ltd or Sole Trader. As a Sole trader liability is unlimited - ouch! :o
I knew I was paying all those extra damn Pty Ltd accounting / insurance /yada yada fees for a reason!
Z
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Hello to All ,
Please lets stop mud slinging . I have said her now twice here and on SNA that the plug will be replaced with plugs that comply. There is only a hand full of these cables out there and I have lost enough sleep over this now , I may have found a plug for AU but its is brass pines I will try and get some tomorrow to try out . I am still working on copper ones but I don't think there is solid copper as it is soft and will bend with not much pressure . I think its going to end up being copper , gold or rhodium plated over brass or steel. Lets just wait and see.
Now lets all chill out sit back and enjoy owe systems ;D
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that's a good point, you should at the very least be operating under a company structure that limits your personal liability, you don't want to end up in the position of losing everything you have worked for/towards over a silly power cable. ..
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Pete mac and skippy father and son in real life nothing better to do dik heads
No, we've got plenty to do thanks Mario. Thank you for your concern. ;)
My first post in over two years of membership... Shame it had to be in response to your post.
If questioning the legality of the cables and the actual conductor material of the fake Oyaide plugs (which are a brass substrate with a gold, copper, rhodium or nickel plating) makes us dickheads, then so be it. I've been called worse by much more influential people than your good self.
I'm glad to see that some members here have got their heads screwed on correctly - some excellent posts in this thread. When you sell non-compliant items, the penalties can be enormous. It's no laughing matter!! When the line between DIY and retail sale is crossed, one needs to re-evaluate the ramifications of selling certain things without the correct approvals.
Paul, I hope you manage to find a suitable AUS plug that floats your boat and yields the sound that you desire. Good luck with it all!
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Thank you my friends ,
The problem will be resolved and we will all reap the best out come. Thank you for your support !!!!
That is the beauty of a forum matters can be talk about and a solution is borne .
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Thank you my friends ,
The problem will be resolved and we will all reap the best out come. Thank you for your support !!!!
That is the beauty of a forum matters can be talk about and a solution is borne .
It might also be worth looking through the Medical / Hospital grade stuff. I used to do service on some of this gear and have
seen some pretty fancy looking mains plugs / sockets.
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No, we've got plenty to do thanks Mario. Thank you for your concern. ;)
My first post in over two years of membership... Shame it had to be in response to your post.
If questioning the legality of the cables and the actual conductor material of the fake Oyaide plugs (which are a brass substrate with a gold, copper, rhodium or nickel plating) makes us dickheads, then so be it. I've been called worse by much more influential people than your good self.
I'm glad to see that some members here have got their heads screwed on correctly - some excellent posts in this thread. When you sell non-compliant items, the penalties can be enormous. It's no laughing matter!! When the line between DIY and retail sale is crossed, one needs to re-evaluate the ramifications of selling certain things without the correct approvals.
Paul, I hope you manage to find a suitable AUS plug that floats your boat and yields the sound that you desire. Good luck with it all!
Pete, As you can read, Mario is not very diplomatic, for Mario that was kind, you should see what he calls me..... :P
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Lol !!! Very funny. ;D
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Geez, SG was cracking a joke, at his own expense, to lighten the mood. Take it easy V !!
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:) Yeah no worries Oz but I always stick up for my mates even if it was a tongue in cheek comment which I failed to pick up on. My bad?
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Pete, As you can read, Mario is not very diplomatic, for Mario that was kind, you should see what he calls me..... :P
Ha ha, calling someone a dickhead is just Mario's way of saying hello ;D
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http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/74071-power-cables/
i posted about them if they are certified to australian standards!
my post got deleted :o :o :o
welcome to sna :-*
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http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/74071-power-cables/
i posted about them if they are certified to australian standards!
my post got deleted :o :o :o
welcome to sna :-*
Hi Mario,
If you are really interested contact the manufacture.
http://www.auralthrillsaudio.com/Contact.htm
regards
Greg
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Ha ha, calling someone a dickhead is just Mario's way of saying hello ;D
So funny because It's true :D
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:) So...what arrived in your mail in box this morning, anything from across the Pond by chance? in my inbox this morning was a link to the site listed below. The 20 something American Lady could certainly stir a few electrons with her voice alone but the marketing for the product is supposed to be compelling.......................Magnets makes music, errrr, right. Well we nearly all know about the tiny pulses travelling along interconnect can be invaded by all sorts of nasties which add in a negative way so how's about that ladies and gentlemen (in a paedophile voice of a certain deceased presenter - TV personality)
http://www.magnetsmakemoremusic.com/
Slip on a load of magnets along all your cables so the conductors run through the magnets centre and sit back and be amazed..............well something like that. I think this will be quite difficult in practice but the first to hear the benefits please write on the back of a 50 dollar note your listening improvements to: Chez V, Glen forrest, Perth WA (tee hee). It's a "game changer" according to some reviewers in the States.
Prices: CT-1 speaker cable $ 4'000/3m/pr, CT-1E speaker cable $ 7'000/3m/pr, CT-1E RCA interconnects $ 2'800/1m/pr
Final thoughts, well 6 paychecks liked them; the mains cables look thinner than the normal 'adult sized' cables we normally see and the mains conditioners are errr f- ing expensive boxes for a 'passive device'. Over to your blokeies for your thoughts and considerations. I am particularly looking forward to a reply from Mr. Zen on this one.
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vitavoxdude, what exactly did you buy?
... and is that AUD$4.00/3m/pr or AUD$4,000/3m/pr :)
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:) So...what arrived in your mail in box this morning, anything from across the Pond by chance? in my inbox this morning was a link to the site listed below. The 20 something American Lady could certainly stir a few electrons with her voice alone but the marketing for the product is supposed to be compelling.......................Magnets makes music, errrr, right. Well we nearly all know about the tiny pulses travelling along interconnect can be invaded by all sorts of nasties which add in a negative way so how's about that ladies and gentlemen (in a paedophile voice of a certain deceased presenter - TV personality)
http://www.magnetsmakemoremusic.com/
Slip on a load of magnets along all your cables so the conductors run through the magnets centre and sit back and be amazed..............well something like that. I think this will be quite difficult in practice but the first to hear the benefits please write on the back of a 50 dollar note your listening improvements to: Chez V, Glen forrest, Perth WA (tee hee). It's a "game changer" according to some reviewers in the States.
Prices: CT-1 speaker cable $ 4'000/3m/pr, CT-1E speaker cable $ 7'000/3m/pr, CT-1E RCA interconnects $ 2'800/1m/pr
Final thoughts, well 6 paychecks liked them; the mains cables look thinner than the normal 'adult sized' cables we normally see and the mains conditioners are errr f- ing expensive boxes for a 'passive device'. Over to your blokeies for your thoughts and considerations. I am particularly looking forward to a reply from Mr. Zen on this one.
May or may not have an effect.
But even if there is a difference it is something very cheap and basic to implement no doubt.....and they charge a fortune for it.
Pass :)
I will add that the Mad Scientist Audio Dicus have the same effect on many systems as these people claim of their products. But the difference is the Discus are neither magnets nor are they magnetic, and they don't cost a fortune and they even give away free samples.
I have samples on the positive terminals of my ML-1's and a retail pair on the positives of amp speaker binding posts.
I didn't think they would have ANY effect.
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What a load, Watch the video, are they serious, it explains nothing even if there is a difference. It's just gobbledegook, Twisted science.
http://www.magnetsmakemoremusic.com/
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Borrowed from What's best forum on the topic of "High Fidelity Cables"
No thank you. I wouldn't buy anything from Rick Schultz the "Oddiophile". The guy went belly up with his first venture Virtual Dynamics and his "Speed of Light" technology. Now he's hawking the "Magnetic Conduction" technology with his new venture, High Fidelity Cables. It's nothing more that pseudo-scientific babble.
Then there's this masterpiece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cbzcFGcckI
Ha Ha Ha
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No, Mr. Ping ping, I did not buy anything, merely commenting on an email that was sent to me this morning as advertising the latest and greatest in interconnect etc. Whilst I will remain 'open minded' wrt these (never damn to the corridors of stupidity something which you fail to sample first!) I wonder if any of the group have tried / experienced them?
Clearly a lot of marketing 'hyperbole' has gone into them and most of the paid reviewers have given the thumbs up. Nice one Graham, I'd forgotten about the earlier stuff, Oddiophile indeed.
There was this chap in the UK called Peter Belt, he had lots of theories on how to improve sound replay and whilst many scoffed at his ideas, some of them actually worked. I say well done to those who pursue such matters but the price is errrr, a lot but these folks work out where they want to sit in the market price wise rather than work out costs and honest profit margins IMV, it's also a lot easier to get stores to stock and sell them if they make hundreds (ne thousands) of dollars for each system sold with them.
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Anyone game to try the free samples from MSA?
http://www.madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscus/
I am still trying to think of a funny explanation to will a pair, but Bob has covered most i could think of, he does have a good sense of humour 8)
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Nobody?
Oh well.
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:) G'day Pete Mac. Shame this topic has broken down to this point. I do sympathise with the criticism you have received from one of our members. Unfortunately there are 3 distinct camps in audio imo and if you fall in the one the other forum member does not like then no amount of dialogue will convince either party that they are wrong in their assumptions or knowledge.
What may be required to reach common ground is for each protagonist to hear each others idea of a music reproduction system before making what amounts to throw away comments.
Tact and diplomacy are not taught enough at school IMV as it should be. Time to leave behind the playground insults and enquire why exactly each party believes their choices are valid and debate on the merits not just damn to the corridors of mediocrity or lambast via sniping posts.
Of course there may be some history I am not aware of here but please refrain from the usual insults as it does not add any value whatsoever to the topic under discussion which is power cables
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why challenge pete mac when otoh you defend marios statements and dismiss them as just that from a bit of a wag?
Petes response is insulting but marios is a bit of a giggle?
Wow, the hypocrisy runs deep on this forum (and others) at times.
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:) G'day Pete Mac. Shame this topic has broken down to this point. I do sympathise with the criticism you have received from one of our members. Unfortunately there are 3 distinct camps in audio imo and if you fall in the one the other forum member does not like then no amount of dialogue will convince either party that they are wrong in their assumptions or knowledge.
What may be required to reach common ground is for each protagonist to hear each others idea of a music reproduction system before making what amounts to throw away comments.
Tact and diplomacy are not taught enough at school IMV as it should be. Time to leave behind the playground insults and enquire why exactly each party believes their choices are valid and debate on the merits not just damn to the corridors of mediocrity or lambast via sniping posts.
Of course there may be some history I am not aware of here but please refrain from the usual insults as it does not add any value whatsoever to the topic under discussion which is power cables
Tact and diplomacy... if only you knew my profession and the skills I possess in this regard.
Unfortunately, I'm fed up with Mario's constant put-downs on other member's preferences as a way of justifying his own position, establishing his supposed superiority, and just being outright arrogant.
Mario does a disservice to the entire 'killerdac' movement via his attitude. It's a damn shame if you ask me. It's not passion - it's just plain nasty.
I can't see how I've possibly done anything to deserve that kind of treatment from Mario. It's disappointing that you see fit to chastise me, but disregard Mario's comments entirely.
I absolutely understand the different audio preferences that people hold, and the very strong views on this forum. I've been very fortunate to be exposed to systems ranging from $1k to $150k - some superb, some underwhelming - with the results not
necessarily correlating with the money invested in them!
However, it is simply not right for someone to be downright rude, condescending and nasty in an attempt to belittle other people's systems as a way of invalidating their opinions. Mario - if you disagree with my comments elsewhere (which were based around the plugs being Oyaide clones which are brass, and the illegality of these plugs) then let's discuss it. These comments were in no way related to sound quality, as I've repeatedly said. How can you drag my system and my audio preferences into a discussion which is based on technical and legality grounds? It is 100% irrelevant, and is not the first time that this has happened - hence why I posted as I did above.
Mario, let's talk about the issue at hand like ADULTS rather than slandering my system and preferences.
If this is seriously considered as being acceptable behaviour on this forum, then sadly I don't think I will be posting much here at all. It amounts to little more than bullying - the behaviour of schoolboys who enjoy throwing their weight around and intimidating others. Workplaces don't allow it, schools don't allow it, and society as a whole frowns upon it. Yet we see it here without any reprimanding whatsoever. Very, very disappointing.
why challenge pete mac when otoh you defend marios statements and dismiss them as just that from a bit of a wag?
Petes response is insulting but marios is a bit of a giggle?
Wow, the hypocrisy runs deep on this forum (and others) at times.
Yep, you nailed it Terry.
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:)
Tact and diplomacy... if only you knew my profession and the skills I possess in this regard.
And your profession is??????????
I replied as an oil pourer not a fire bomber. I am tired of snippers and do not in any way support outbursts of the like we have seen in emotional back-bitting. Mario does need a reprimand in this regard and I shall speak directly to him wrt this. Why folk cannot agree to disagree stating their reasons in a logical, non emotional way is still surprising, after all its just Audio and livings and general well being do not depend on it in this instance.
Terry, you have met Mario and know how he phrases things but you are right, I can regard his musings as twitter twatter as I know him reasonably well. Pete on the other hand I do not. As an administrator on this site I thought it prudent to scold rather than my initial thought of just delete the post. If this is high handed and hypercritical, so be it. Beware the DELETE button. :o
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:) And your profession is??????????
I'd prefer not to discuss this in an open forum with people that I don't know.
I replied as an oil pourer not a fire bomber. I am tired of snippers and do not in any way support outbursts of the like we have seen in emotional back-bitting. Mario does need a reprimand in this regard and I shall speak directly to him wrt this.
Thank you. That would be appreciated!
Why folk cannot agree to disagree stating their reasons in a logical, non emotional way is still surprising, after all its just Audio and livings and general well being do not depend on it in this instance.
I agree 100%
Let's just look back at how this started. Mario didn't like what my father and I posted regarding the legality and conductor material of the plugs (whilst 100% factual) on another forum but rather than engage with us and debate it, he branded us both dickheads in this exact thread. Another SNAer brought this to our attention.
I, of course, took exception to this. If Mario had argued on a technical and logical basis, I would happily have done the same. However, he clearly did not.
I'd be more than happy to discuss the legality of the plugs and the conductor material - a few other contributors to this thread (Paul included) have quite successfully and eloquently done so. It's your turn now Mario!
I completely understand that the legality and conductor material may not be a concern to some members, and that's fine - but being civil and refraining from calling people 'dickheads' due to a difference in opinion would have avoided this entire exchange of posts. I only posted here because of being called a 'dickhead with nothing better to do', along with my father who is a fellow audio nutter. If Mario had debated the issue constructively (whether on this forum or elsewhere) then we wouldn't be having this conversation full-stop!
Sorry for my reaction... but really... can you blame me?
I hope we can move on from here and that my future posts will be treated with respect. I'm certainly not here to cause trouble.
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:) :) :) :) :) At last, a considerate reply, now all we need is one from Mario and we can all live ever happily after..............calling planet Mario, hello Mario, Earth to Mario receiving over?
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He's probably too busy being a Superhero.
ron
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He's probably too busy being a Superhero.
ron
Had a busy day changing air conditioner in my car a real dik of a job.
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Tact and diplomacy... if only you knew my profession and the skills I possess in this regard.
Unfortunately, I'm fed up with Mario's constant put-downs on other member's preferences as a way of justifying his own position, establishing his supposed superiority, and just being outright arrogant.
You show me links to constant put downs on other members preferences,justifying my own positions to who i dont really give a you know what,i was wrong calling you/dad a dik head very distasteful choice of words for such highly regarded members of sna who have helped so many members with such vast knowledge in electronics.Thankyou for informing the world that chinese plugs are just copper plated none of us knew that apart from a selected few which informed me many moons ago.
Please inform the general public on sna in the for sale section about some non compliant plugs/cords
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Time to move on children, end it ... This is of no benefit to anyone, from now on it's topic only>:(
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You show me links to constant put downs on other members preferences,justifying my own positions to who i dont really give a you know what,i was wrong calling you/dad a dik head very distasteful choice of words for such highly regarded members of sna who have helped so many members with such vast knowledge in electronics.Thankyou for informing the world that chinese plugs are just copper plated none of us knew that apart from a selected few which informed me many moons ago.
Please inform the general public on sna in the for sale section about some non compliant plugs/cords
Please inform the general public on sna in the for sale section about some non compliant plugs/cords
If the issue of compliance is for public safety, no issues with that (people can choose if this is a concern or not), yet other non compliant plugs/cords should as Mario point out be identified as well, that's being even handed.
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The for sale link Mario posted was for some cables with US style plugs, being sold 2nd hand. Is that the same thing, is it relevant?
It's a given that cables with US plugs, wont comply, isnt it? Here's a question, are there any local retailers selling US style power cables (wanders off to look at KK's site).
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... Thankyou for informing the world that chinese plugs are just copper plated none of us knew that apart from a selected few which informed me many moons ago. Please inform the general public on sna in the for sale section about some non compliant plugs/cords
Interesting :)
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Is it legal to use a US power cable like this,,,,,
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html (http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html)
If I used 1 of these?
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html (http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html)
The active pins are still exposed.
Why is it ok to commercially sell US power cables, that dont comply with local standards? Genuine question. No one batters an eyelid to these cables with US plugs.
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What is the deal with all the censorship at the moment? The forum is going to all new heights of deleting posts.
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Time to move on children, end it ... This is of no benefit to anyone, from now on it's topic only>:(
Noted. I won't interact with Mario on this topic any further.
If the issue of compliance is for public safety, no issues with that (people can choose if this is a concern or not), yet other non compliant plugs/cords should as Mario point out be identified as well, that's being even handed.
The for sale link Mario posted was for some cables with US style plugs, being sold 2nd hand. Is that the same thing, is it relevant?
It's certainly not my attention (nor desire!!) to become the 'power cable police'. However, if I decided to pursue this, would I get a cape or a badge? I could call myself 'SuperDickheadPowerCableMan' ;D
My observations on Paul's cables related to the compliance and legal implications of selling non-compliant DIY power cables, and the genuine concern regarding the scope of the penalties associated with doing so. Other forum members here have touched on this topic in this exact thread.
The legality of US plugs and other non-compliant cables for sale on the Australian market has been debated ad nauseum. If the big players in the audio scene (whether manufacturers or retailers) choose not to comply, on their head be it. If someone chooses to make the authorities aware on a larger scale, it would be verrrrry interesting indeed.
Is it legal to use a US power cable like this,,,,,
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html (http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html)
If I used 1 of these?
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html (http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html)
The active pins are still exposed.
Why is it ok to commercially sell US power cables, that dont comply with local standards? Genuine question. No one batters an eyelid to these cables with US plugs.
No, it's not legal IMHO. The US plug/sockets are immediately non-compliant, plus every cable needs to be certified.
It is worth noting that the 'test and tag' regime does not cover individually assembled cables either, as it does not constitute certification under the relevant Australian standards. This appears to be a common misconception by certain cable manufacturers. They are two very different things.
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Is it legal to use a US power cable like this,,,,,
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html (http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html)
If I used 1 of these?
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html (http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html)
The active pins are still exposed.
Why is it ok to commercially sell US power cables, that dont comply with local standards? Genuine question. No one batters an eyelid to these cables with US plugs.
Good Question...
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Australian plugs are a long way from being ideal as they are remiss IMV on a number of issues. American plugs are not much better. If you want a safe plug then you have to look to UK plugs as they cannot be pulled out by the chord, do not have any part of the connectors which can be touched by little fingers when partially decoupled from the wall socket as the Live and Neutral pins are sheathed / insulated. Also UK plugs are fused within the plug so fault conditions take out the fuse as opposed to burn out the wall wiring (unlikely) but possible. With the rise of the moulded plug most people cant even wire a plug these days!
Mains flex means just that, the cable is made up of multiple strands of a small enough diameter to allow multiple flexing without early failure through fatigue. Moulded mains leads with IEC one end and Aussie plug the other should always be checked prior to use; it is not unknown for these when being made overseas to be incorrectly wired. One UK hifi manufacturer sued a supplier when the earth pin was live!
I hate Aussie plugs because the pins are too thin and easily bent if inadvertently stood on. The stupid way they are wired within wrapping the flex around a holding bend may be good for checking if its wired correctly with the transparent base but the sucky shroud has to be literally stretched over the main pin carrier. The right angle entry plugs are slightly better with the cable 'clamp' (more of a guillotine hard plastic plate) at least by distorting the cable it secures it in place. The horrible self tapping screw has a course thread and just feels wrong driving it into the nylon / plastic cover.
It's hardly surprising that audio folk look for a more robust solution to feeding their audio devices and my advice would be ditch the Aussie and Yank plugs and go for the 13amp UK sockets and plugs. You can get rhodium plated highly polished mains plug that will accept larger csa conductors which will improve the safety of your mains within you home. MKC and Grabtree make good hardware. The stuff you get here is as cheap as chips China made rubbish.
If you really want a better Aussie solution, look for computer distribution outlets (usually 4 to 12 outlets in a single bar but sometimes doubled up). These can have much higher quality sockets which will grip the pins of the fabled plugs much more securely, they usually have a built in circuit breaker too and a steel enclosure all of which enhances screening and security. I have known a lot of audio crazies use solid core (>1.5mm conductor) ring mains cable to hook up their audio but this is not permitted for domestic appliances which can be moved around.
When it comes to mains feeds always look for the lowest resistance cable which is very well insulted and preferably has a shielding braid as well as foil, if its around each conductor then even better. Plugs and sockets look to medical suppliers or industrial as they are more robust / secure. As others have mentioned, plated pins are not uncommon and many copies of well made products litter fleabay. I generally find the US plugs are more robust than local plugs as they are built to handle the proportionally higher currents that the lower voltage demands. Furukawa does not appear to supply their cables with Aussie plugs more to the shame and I am guessing the US is a much larger market than Oz for such things. I would suggest only buying reputable 'name brand' cables rather than the more anonymous chinese cables with no come back / warranty.
As a price guide I would stay above 100 dollars each for 1 mtr length as at least you will get plenty of insulation. Then we come to the other end of the cable :o and crappy IEC plugs. Honestly these again are usually bad news as the contact points are relatively small and if you have a revealing system the micro sparks generated by poor contact surfaces can be heard, in this regard tethered equipment avoids one source of noise entering the system. Getting a gas tight welded or soldered cable is ideal but how many can say they have this, not many I'd wager.
A kettle belonging to a friend had a thinnish mains lead, when the kettle was turned on the lead got almost too hot to hold :o Make sure you do not have these Chinese specials in your home!
On a final note, the insulation on mains cables should be checked annually as the sheath perishes and cracks pretty rapidly if exposed to sunlight, I have several tools where this has happened so need replacing. All the screws should be checked every couple of years too as the copper stranded conductors spreads out under the compressive load of the screws.
If I can make the time I will include some images of contact points on plugs etc and the general decay to plated surfaces with time, all pretty shocking stuff.
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Terry, you have met Mario and know how he phrases things but you are right, I can regard his musings as twitter twatter as I know him reasonably well.
yep, mario and I get along very well (at least that is my view, I feel reasonably certain he agrees). As such, I had NO view on whether or not his statements were ok (in other words they did not bother me in the slightest) BUT I simply noted the discrepancy in how the two were viewed.
But good on you for being able to see that a personal relationship coloured the interpretation. As indeed did the reverse, the lack of a personal relationship coloured the other.
So many of the sh!t fights we see on forums occurs because of this very human reaction.
the moral? everyone needs to meet everyone in person so get out to as many gtgs as you can!!
At the very least, if you find you DO dislike the person in person then there is substance to the forum fights haha.
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Geez, what a diversion, glad it's all sorted.
I only have on thing to say "Black Discus" free samples I dare others to try them!
OK, I'm done :)
*Grabs pointy hat and broom and takes off*
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I only have on thing to say "Black Discus" free samples I dare others to try them!
OK, I'm done :)
*Grabs pointy hat and broom and takes off*
LOL, ok, I'll try them. :D
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I have forgotten, what is "Black Discus" supposed to do?
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Hello to all,
I have requested the web designer to remove or block the power cables from the the web site until I can get the cable through the approval and certification process. This could take up to 12 months .
I am disappointed by what has been and how it was said on this and the other site. The point was taken after the first few posts , but to keep going on and on . It in my my way of thinking was way to much. Were was the true spirit of a forum. Come on guys and girls we can do better than this.
Enough of that we must all relax and go enjoy our systems.
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I have forgotten, what is "Black Discus" supposed to do?
Go back to the other post with link, i don't want to clutter Paul's thread any more with off topic.
Good advise from Paul "we must all relax and go enjoy our systems"
:)
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Please post again, what is "Black Discus" supposed to do!
I really do not to go back through the thread, hence why I asked...
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Ill create a thread instead of putting it here.
http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=2955.msg22578#msg22578
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Hello to all,
I have requested the web designer to remove or block the power cables from the the web site until I can get the cable through the approval and certification process. This could take up to 12 months .
I am disappointed by what has been and how it was said on this and the other site. The point was taken after the first few posts , but to keep going on and on . It in my my way of thinking was way to much. Were was the true spirit of a forum. Come on guys and girls we can do better than this.
Enough of that we must all relax and go enjoy our systems.
Paul,
If you want to sell your cables I wouldn't get to scared by all this talk. This is mostly personal infighting and very little of it directed at you.
Whilst it is certainly worth carefully considering the valid legality issues discussed here, in reality the chances of one of these products actually
causing any damage to property through electrical malfunction has to be virtually zero.
a/ the cable has to actually fail - highly unlikely given the quality
b/ it has to fail in a way that is actually unsafe, ie; cause a short
c/ That has to happen in a house that is wired incorrectly such that a dangerous situation is not prevented by mains fuses / breakers.
d/ All of this has to happen -and- cause some damage to property
e/ The owner has to actually want to sue you
Let me throw another perspective on this whole 'how dangerous' discussion.
In the course of thousands of repairs I am staggered the number of times I have worked on amps etc that have -NO- safety earth connected to a metal chassis.
With an electric guitar amp usually the guitar ground is on the chassis and usually the metal guitar strings are grounded through the lead.
Once you lift the chassis earth the chassis can lift up to somewhere between 0 and 240V through capacitive / electrostatic coupling in the power transformer.
The guitarist then goes to sing on stage and we have a nice circuit completed from his hands -> body -> mouth -> microphone = ouch! :o
And that is not considering if an actual fault occurs that can lift the chassis up to a deadly potential with significant current flow capacity.
That is what I would constitute as dangerous! ;)
If you are still concerned It might be worth contacting the relevant compliance testing people and find out what rules apply to
say a recording studio installation scenario. I know for a fact that there are allowances made for a/ a certain number of 'prototype'
products and b/ unusual / out of the ordinary / custom installations.
You have plenty of options mate, don't let a bit of BS here put you off. Think + and go forward.
cheers
Terry
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Well said Terry,
I have even come across one very old American tube TV that was a hot chassis being that the neutral was tied to a floating chassis inside of metal box and the active went through a half wave selenium rectifier to the rest of the B+ rail. If someone got the active and neutrals reversed the only thing that stopped you getting zapped were the plastic knobs on the controls. Old American tube radio were like that too !!
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Paul,
If you want to sell your cables I wouldn't get to scared by all this talk. This is mostly personal infighting and very little of it directed at you.
Whilst it is certainly worth carefully considering the valid legality issues discussed here, in reality the chances of one of these products actually
causing any damage to property through electrical malfunction has to be virtually zero.
a/ the cable has to actually fail - highly unlikely given the quality
b/ it has to fail in a way that is actually unsafe, ie; cause a short
c/ That has to happen in a house that is wired incorrectly such that a dangerous situation is not prevented by mains fuses / breakers.
d/ All of this has to happen -and- cause some damage to property
e/ The owner has to actually want to sue you
Let me throw another perspective on this whole 'how dangerous' discussion.
In the course of thousands of repairs I am staggered the number of times I have worked on amps etc that have -NO- safety earth connected to a metal chassis.
With an electric guitar amp usually the guitar ground is on the chassis and usually the metal guitar strings are grounded through the lead.
Once you lift the chassis earth the chassis can lift up to somewhere between 0 and 240V through capacitive / electrostatic coupling in the power transformer.
The guitarist then goes to sing on stage and we have a nice circuit completed from his hands -> body -> mouth -> microphone = ouch! :o
And that is not considering if an actual fault occurs that can lift the chassis up to a deadly potential with significant current flow capacity.
That is what I would constitute as dangerous! ;)
If you are still concerned It might be worth contacting the relevant compliance testing people and find out what rules apply to
say a recording studio installation scenario. I know for a fact that there are allowances made for a/ a certain number of 'prototype'
products and b/ unusual / out of the ordinary / custom installations.
You have plenty of options mate, don't let a bit of BS here put you off. Think + and go forward.
cheers
Terry
Right on, as I have posted here unsafe amps are a much bigger risk overall yet largely ignored..............
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I have always liked the firmness and heavy feel of UK plugs. Just picking up on V's suggestion for the DIYr's, this plug is supposed to be all copper -
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-HD-POWER-PURE-COPPER-UK-MAINS-PLUG-SILVER-PLATED-FUSE-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-/351021184379 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-HD-POWER-PURE-COPPER-UK-MAINS-PLUG-SILVER-PLATED-FUSE-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-/351021184379)
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I have always liked the firmness and heavy feel of UK plugs. Just picking up on V's suggestion for the DIYr's, this plug is supposed to be all copper -
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-HD-POWER-PURE-COPPER-UK-MAINS-PLUG-SILVER-PLATED-FUSE-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-/351021184379 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-HD-POWER-PURE-COPPER-UK-MAINS-PLUG-SILVER-PLATED-FUSE-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-/351021184379)
Given the significantly thicker prongs there's a chance that being copper might be true, no chance with our plugs which often bend, though Chinese grade metal doesn't help. UK plug are awesome pick them up and plug them in UK the quality is obvious.
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Paul,
If you want to sell your cables I wouldn't get to scared by all this talk. This is mostly personal infighting and very little of it directed at you.
Whilst it is certainly worth carefully considering the valid legality issues discussed here, in reality the chances of one of these products actually
causing any damage to property through electrical malfunction has to be virtually zero.
a/ the cable has to actually fail - highly unlikely given the quality
b/ it has to fail in a way that is actually unsafe, ie; cause a short
c/ That has to happen in a house that is wired incorrectly such that a dangerous situation is not prevented by mains fuses / breakers.
d/ All of this has to happen -and- cause some damage to property
e/ The owner has to actually want to sue you
Let me throw another perspective on this whole 'how dangerous' discussion.
In the course of thousands of repairs I am staggered the number of times I have worked on amps etc that have -NO- safety earth connected to a metal chassis.
With an electric guitar amp usually the guitar ground is on the chassis and usually the metal guitar strings are grounded through the lead.
Once you lift the chassis earth the chassis can lift up to somewhere between 0 and 240V through capacitive / electrostatic coupling in the power transformer.
The guitarist then goes to sing on stage and we have a nice circuit completed from his hands -> body -> mouth -> microphone = ouch! :o
And that is not considering if an actual fault occurs that can lift the chassis up to a deadly potential with significant current flow capacity.
That is what I would constitute as dangerous! ;)
If you are still concerned It might be worth contacting the relevant compliance testing people and find out what rules apply to
say a recording studio installation scenario. I know for a fact that there are allowances made for a/ a certain number of 'prototype'
products and b/ unusual / out of the ordinary / custom installations.
You have plenty of options mate, don't let a bit of BS here put you off. Think + and go forward.
cheers
Terry
Terry, this certainly covers the direct risk to people and property.
It doesn't, however, cover the risk associated with Paul selling non-compliant items. The ramifications can be significant if Fair Trading gets involved. They chase, and chase hard.
Edit: sorry... Paul, I forgot to wish you all the best if you do indeed choose to pursue the certification path. :)
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yep, mario and I get along very well (at least that is my view, I feel reasonably certain he agrees). As such, I had NO view on whether or not his statements were ok (in other words they did not bother me in the slightest) BUT I simply noted the discrepancy in how the two were viewed.
But good on you for being able to see that a personal relationship coloured the interpretation. As indeed did the reverse, the lack of a personal relationship coloured the other.
So many of the sh!t fights we see on forums occurs because of this very human reaction.
the moral? everyone needs to meet everyone in person so get out to as many gtgs as you can!!
At the very least, if you find you DO dislike the person in person then there is substance to the forum fights haha.
Terry J a man which one must meet and he will never forget called him worse then a dik hed in the past but we had a beer few years later.and will do next year i will visit around end of march
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just justifies selling illegal power cords then.
just justifies selling illegal power cords then.
Just about all DIY stuff is illegal.
I'm illegal
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Should see my amp when the cage is off, when I switch on my thumb is about two inches from the 240vac :D
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Should see my amp when the cage is off, when I switch on my thumb is about two inches from the 240vac :D
What a way to go 240ac from a valve amp if i got zapped by transistor amp i died i would be coming back to haunt it.
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If I go I hope It's the HT, that way I might go with some pleasant harmonics, a more peaceful rest ;)
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Terry, this certainly covers the direct risk to people and property.
It doesn't, however, cover the risk associated with Paul selling non-compliant items. The ramifications can be significant if Fair Trading gets involved. They chase, and chase hard.
Edit: sorry... Paul, I forgot to wish you all the best if you do indeed choose to pursue the certification path. :)
Pete,
Agreed - hence my comments WRT prototypes and custom installations.
I am sure a good chat with compliance engineers that are used to dealing with all these scenarios will be worth while.
T
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Pete,
Agreed - hence my comments WRT prototypes and custom installations.
I am sure a good chat with compliance engineers that are used to dealing with all these scenarios will be worth while.
T
Ah, of course!
;D
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I had a good long 2 hour chat to ComTest in Melbourne when we were there for the show and aside from reviewing the products before submission, they explained the constantly changing regulations and requirements. A very worthwhile exercise.
As for certification for 2 products, figure $6000, 2 of each product to be destroyed and that was using all components in the designs having already statements of compliance regarding use according to the Australian Standards. Certification overseas was even more expensive.
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I had a good long 2 hour chat to ComTest in Melbourne when we were there for the show and aside from reviewing the products before submission, they explained the constantly changing regulations and requirements. A very worthwhile exercise.
As for certification for 2 products, figure $6000, 2 of each product to be destroyed and that was using all components in the designs having already statements of compliance regarding use according to the Australian Standards. Certification overseas was even more expensive.
And we wonder why small business is not a viable option for trading in Australia any more. This country has lost all grip on reality.
These costs explain why a Australian locally made product with $50.00 worth of materials retails for $650.00 in the market place.
It would not be so bad excepting that successive rubbish governments allow cheap sh!tty imports into this country that make sure
all the local small business's go broke. Try demanding the AS Standards certification on a $3.50 Chinese made power board at
Bunnings and see how you get on.
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And we wonder why small business is not a viable option for trading in Australia any more. This country has lost all grip on reality.
Geez! it would take a long time to recoup that selling power cords :(
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I have to say that certification is BS when they charge that sort of money for it, looks more like a f'ing tax.
Like Gamve points out it favours the big players, and slams the door on the small ones and potential start ups.
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I had a good long 2 hour chat to ComTest in Melbourne when we were there for the show and aside from reviewing the products before submission, they explained the constantly changing regulations and requirements. A very worthwhile exercise.
As for certification for 2 products, figure $6000, 2 of each product to be destroyed and that was using all components in the designs having already statements of compliance regarding use according to the Australian Standards. Certification overseas was even more expensive.
And we wonder why small business is not a viable option for trading in Australia any more. This country has lost all grip on reality.
These costs explain why a Australian locally made product with $50.00 worth of materials retails for $650.00 in the market place.
It would not be so bad excepting that successive rubbish governments allow cheap sh!tty imports into this country that make sure
all the local small business's go broke. Try demanding the AS Standards certification on a $3.50 Chinese made power board at
Bunnings and see how you get on.
Guys, you are getting off track and not addressing the core (no pun intended) issues - no wonder Paul is frustrated.
Guru - correct me if I'm wrong here but I am assuming most of the $6k you are referring to is for EMC compliance testing etc.
I have looked further into this and I am almost certain that power cables do not require EMC compliance as they do not have any electronics inside them.
They do however require safety compliance and I am sure this is a lot cheaper / easier for obvious reasons.
http://www.australiansafetyapproval.com/application.php
Whether you can get exemptions from specified max conductor core sizes etc etc is another matter that would have to be looked into.
Hence my suggestion to talk to a compliance engineer / expert.
cheers
T
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Guys, you are getting off track and not addressing the core (no pun intended) issues - no wonder Paul is frustrated.
Guru - correct me if I'm wrong here but I am assuming most of the $6k you are referring to is for EMC compliance testing etc.
I have looked further into this and I am almost certain that power cables do not require EMC compliance as they do not have any electronics inside them.
They do however require safety compliance and I am sure this is a lot cheaper / easier for obvious reasons.
http://www.australiansafetyapproval.com/application.php
Whether you can get exemptions from specified max conductor core sizes etc etc is another matter that would have to be looked into.
Hence my suggestion to talk to a compliance engineer / expert.
cheers
T
Testing to AS/NZS 3105:2014 , preparing ESV Electrical Authority APPROVAL APPLICATION, payment of fees and obtaining approval number.
We are doing it so as not to be ever in a situation of being held liable for claims and not affecting our liability insurance coverage. if you are importing a product with existing approvals and wish to get a certificate of compliance then I believe the link you refer to is correct. As we are manufacturing then the requirements are different.
We are okay with the costs as we believe Australian certification actually means something, if I wanted it China certified then that would be seen as quite different by our customers and I don't want to be seen claiming " but it's certified in China." as something I'm proud of.
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Hi Guru
Can I ask which organisation you may consider using for certification to 3105?
G
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Hi Guru
Can I ask which organisation you may consider using for certification to 3105?
G
ComTest in south Melbourne.
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Testing to AS/NZS 3105:2014 , preparing ESV Electrical Authority APPROVAL APPLICATION, payment of fees and obtaining approval number.
We are doing it so as not to be ever in a situation of being held liable for claims and not affecting our liability insurance coverage.
That's the usual reason
if you are importing a product with existing approvals and wish to get a certificate of compliance then I believe the link you refer to is correct. As we are manufacturing then the requirements are different.
I don't see that mentioned anywhere and am not convinced this is the case - but as always am happy to be proved wrong. :)
We are okay with the costs as we believe Australian certification actually means something, if I wanted it China certified then that would be seen as quite different by our customers and I don't want to be seen claiming " but it's certified in China." as something I'm proud of.
I think customer perception is a separate issue - that really falls broadly under marketing. We are talking legal requirements.
FWIW, another example popped into my mind - transformers. If every transformer made by small manufacturers required compliance
testing, they'd go broke. AFAIK if you are lucky they will do a primary to secondary leakage test. I'm going to have a chat with a few
people in the industry this week and gather some more info / see where they all stand on these issues.
T
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ComTest in south Melbourne.
Thanks
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Before one of you fellas get angry and chuck another hissy fit, no I have not deleted half of the off topic posts. I have moved them to the following thread:
http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,2747.msg22665.html#new (http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,2747.msg22665.html#new)
Peace :)
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Hi audio heads, over the years I have tried many different tweaks particularly interconnects and power cords. I have many friends in the industry and they have brought around countless brands of expensive audio cables and invariably they leave disappointed because these cables (despite certain advantages) just did not cut it . About a week ago I acquired a cheap power cord made by Paul from Falls audio. I have to say that for the first time in years i have tried a product that really is an improvement in my system. This cable (Merlin) had the ability to leave the magic intact, the Beauty, Natural Realism, Timbre, Body, Warmth, and most importantly Involvement, it was not bright nor dark, pitch and rhythm was first class. Interestingly this is first time a cable did not make some kind of hurtful change to the essence of the music. If there was brilliance to be had it was left intact, without damaging side effects. This is the only power cord I have tried that did not hurt what matters. What it did do was take away a layer of muck, noise, and confusion, music was ordered, with real clarity. There is one caveat, i used this cable in the most critical of HiFi spots, the Dac, this is where the noise is the biggest problem and where the cable will probably have the greatest effect. I don't know if this cable is legal in Australia or not, Personally i do not care, others may. This cable is very good and the best I have heard and best of all it's cheap.
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Great to get the review steve, thanks for your efforts in writing it.
No surprises here. Paul went through many types of wire and plug combinations to get the results you are hearing, I know because I did the initial testing, before they were sent elsewhere. Cables were only sent out for evaluation unless we thought they were good enough, lots of wire and plugs were found to hurt the music and hence ended up in the bin.:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Paul was doing this as service to music lovers and frankly it was barely worth his while at what he was charging. Less hassle mowing lawns or cleaning. While I don't have a problem with people talking about safety the threads had a sanctimonious tone to them.
No wonder Paul isn't particularly interested in discussing this further. If you want a musical sounding cable and your willing to accept falls audio cables on a DIY basis go for it...........
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Is the Merlin the same as the Marlin I reviewed in reply 5 of this thread or is it a different cable?
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Is the Merlin the same as the Marlin I reviewed in reply 5 of this thread or is it a different cable?
I believe Paul also experimented with cryo plugs but didn't get around to sending me one. I think the Merlin has a cryo plug. Until I hear it I cant say how different it is to the other cables. Ill get Paul to send me one, and let you know. Sounds like it works well in lower power sources like the DAC.
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It's the red colour one, so good...because it's fast! :D
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You better check with paul about the power cable I have. Maybe its called Marlin or melvin or pervin.
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Hi Guys ,
It is the MARLIN that has the magic which you will be all impressed with :D.
Paul
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Ah ok its same as the one I like.
The Pervin sounds like fun though. I might need to give it a go.
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Heard the Pervin has been withdrawn from sale as it's too stiff. :D
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You could have a look at this Power Cable Construction Technique :) Power Cable Construction Technique (http://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-cable-construction.html)