... but must admit I am honestly surprised he is raving about the sound of it compared to the KDAC?!?!?!Bryan has the earlier version Scott Thompson 1541 dac, with subsequent tube rectification mod. It sounded amazing to my ears when I heard his system. So this LM dac warrants some investigation based on his initial impressions.
it's been around for a while, and yes cheap direct from ChinaBryan also thought his electrostatic panels where better then his golden horns,i dont think so golden horns are the ones to beat electrostatic panels are thin.........
... but must admit I am honestly surprised he is raving about the sound of it compared to the KDAC?!?!?!
Bryan also thought his electrostatic panels where better then his golden horns,i dont think so golden horns are the ones to beat electrostatic panels are thin.........Did you hear Bryans panels when setup in his room (in Melb)? I havent, but I know Bryan goes to extra ordinary lengths to dial in his systems. I cant imagine them sounding thin (based on Grahams and others comments).
it's been around for a while, and yes cheap direct from ChinaI think he is saying its real good, but so is his KDac, Plus his system is not optimal for comparisons yet.
... but must admit I am honestly surprised he is raving about the sound of it compared to the KDAC?!?!?!
Uses ES9016 Sabre DAC and 12AU7 OP stage.They could not afford the parts.
Not a bad match actually, 12AU7 is a pretty rich sounding tube that would offset nicely sound of Sabre.
I'd even go for a 12BH7 or 6CG7.
Agreed that no DSD is a bummer. Also as I have pointed out previously, IMO you can get Sabre sounding good, just needs
attention to (many) details and the right (tube) OP stage..... doesn't surprise me that someone's done it. Good luck to them!
Edited.... These are Chinese made, that explains the price point.
I wonder when we will see a Chinese knock off of a Kirra DAC.... Ooops.... LOL. :)
T
They could not afford the parts.
Did you hear Bryans panels when setup in his room (in Melb)? I havent, but I know Bryan goes to extra ordinary lengths to dial in his systems. I cant imagine them sounding thin (based on Grahams and others comments).Yes in Melbourne last year before stevem bought them.................i would not buy them
electrostatic panels are thin.........
Hmmmm, well if by thin you mean as fast as grease lightning with no overhang (ringing) and the ability to hear deep into the mix then yes, some may be thin. IME most do not know how to set them up within a room and place them too close to rear walls which robs them of body and bass. This would account for a thin- devoid of body result, poor placement. I love big electrostatics and much like the peerless Plasma tweeters, think they are the real deal when you don't need masses of bass or extreme loudness.post 128 is the setup
One of the reasons I went to horns is that the vast majority of standard moving coil bass units have high mass and high inertia which all slows down the output and adds to the muddle and sluggishness / lack of dynamics.
Yes in Melbourne last year before stevem bought them.................i would not buy themYeah, I forgot about that trip.
Bryan also thought his electrostatic panels where better then his golden horns,i dont think so golden horns are the ones to beat electrostatic panels are thin.........
Having an audio habit that resides just behind having to eat, there are many many DAC's out there all vying for our pay checks and many, much like bits of skirt attract your manly attention, and at first it's lust and fantasy, however once the initial newness has worn off and the additional detail and sharpness around notes wears off, you yearn for not having to keep trying to impress. :-X
Hi Guys,Bryan also mentioned to me the Line Magnetic LM-502CA Dac also killed a $100,000 Caliburn turntable setup, i must say that statement sent alarm bells ringing in my head. This new Dac seems promising alright. At least it runs the average performer 6X4 valve rectifier and nice 12AU7 output. Bryan told me it's on loan from this importer friend, and he is hotting this DAC up for this friend before the Melbourne HIFI show. After Bryans amazing statements, i talked to mark (who owns the latest KD) and asked near the end of our small talk, what do you think of Bryans hotted up Line Magnetic LM-502CA Dac, He replied, it's pretty good. I am afraid it looks like, it killed it (Bryans words) was though Bryans ears. We will see when i get Bryan Hotted up dac here, but don't hold your breath that he will send it up. I have had so many of the latest and greatest DAC here, and like Bryan they all sprouted that it will kill my KillerDAC, but alas it was there dacs that where killed. Will this one be any different, time will tell. But don't sell your Killerdac just yet.
I can say compared to my killerdac and Marks killerdac there was absolutely no contest. It was killed. Sorry guys if i'm stepping on any toes and telling them they're girlfriend is ugly but its the truth.
Lansche Plasma Guy.
We will see when i get Bryan Hotted up dac here, but don't hold your breath that he will send it up. I have had so many of the latest and greatest DAC here, and like Bryan they all sprouted that it will kill my KillerDAC, but alas it was there dacs that where killed. Will this one be any different, time will tell. But don't sell your Killerdac just yet.
If the LM 502 CA does arrive & sound ordinary in your system...will that be synergy or because the DAC is not as good as the KD.Rob the killer Dac standard is already full on. First we have to buy this LM 502 CA, then because its not good enough standard and we are crazy audiophiles, rebuild it with all the best gear, now its not so cheap, As for parts, the ES9016 Sabre DAC chip it uses, is just not as good sound wise as a good genuine Holland TDA1541A S1 or S2. On the valve output stage, it uses a 6X4, this is a Ok sounding type of rectifier but not in the league of a 1950s 60s GEC brown base U52/5U4G, maybe the best rectifier there is. The circuit will be housed with electrolytic capacitors, and is not nearly as direct or simple. So even if I retuned it till the cows come home theoretically it will not end up being as good. But there is always a but, on some floored (example Quads 57) or underperforming systems, it could be considered better. There is always a system somewhere that will like a good to average Dac. It's always the Synergy thing. There is so much bullsh!t in HIFI Speak, it really takes lateral thinking to sort the wheat from the charf and then make sense of it.
If you had to "retune" the KD to suit the Leak/Quad setup...why could you not "retune" the LM 502 CA to suit your system...then compare the two...
The added benefit of course is that you also have access to computer audio at rates above 44...
Yes that will be great, but when it does DSD then I will have a play.
The added benefit of course is that you also have access to computer audio at rates above 44...
As for parts, the ES9016 Sabre DAC chip it uses, is just not as good sound wise as a good genuine Holland TDA1541A S1 or S2.
Hi Guys, I guess I should chime in here. I'm the "Mark" Brian and Steve are talking about, and I currently have a loan of the the LM 502.CA for a week to see what I think of it. When Steve called, I had heard it in one session,.....at night, midnight onwards,..... well off center,.... as my guests were in centre stage, and while quite sleepy.It will be interesting mark. I want a HI RES dac that runs via a computer transport, plays DSD direct, it must play all formats. The main Problem is it must sound like analogue music, real with no digital artefacts at all, It must have great timbre plus musicality. None so far have done that, except one. Well hopefully nearly as good as my master tapes with my valve output. If this machine does that, I will wait for the next model and if it will play DSD, then I will spend on some new internal bits.
So, yes, when asked by Steve what it sounded like my system, (which at it's new home, is sounding better than it ever has), I replied "it's pretty good".
Because of all the negative elements in the first impression listen, I was very reserved because I wanted to get a better grip on what it was doing to the sound while more awake, in the center, and with a good cross section of music I know well. It is so very different to the KDac's sound. This is neither good or bad yet, just very different, so let me live with it for a week, and I'll give you guys a more balanced view of what I'm hearing, but first impression is actually very high.
I should mention that the Sabre DAC when implemented well, does sound excellent, and I've heard this first hand on my own system for extended periods. It was a "from the ground up" custom build, but demonstrated the potential of the Sabre Dac. I should also comment on the 502's build. It's near fanatical, and does not reflect a mass produced product in this price bracket. Power supply is segregated from signal boards and shielded, Toriod for digital, EI Tranny for Analogue. Beautiful, logical layout. Chassis is high end "entry level" only, neat and clean, but not milled from solid etc. which is why the price is not double that asked. Quality of components is very good for the price asked.
Oh, and FWIWorth, Brian's panel were not thin in the midband when I returned his CEC TL-1 after modding it to see what it sounded like in his system. Seriously real dynamics, sizzling speed, and yes, fully fleshed out midband, rich and sweet. Perhaps the system was sulking when heard as "thin" previously. Brians always tweaking, so anythings possible.
Cheers, Mark.
We will have to get Tuyen to buy one so we in the West can find out for ourselves. ;)
You may be waiting a long time, as I am currently content with my current DAC solution. The LM-502CA DAC doesn't have any other useful features that I am after.Tuyen sell the lot and start a family ;)
Also as I reckon my hearing abilities are not as acute as the more senor audiophiles kdac/cd transport users on the forum, I don't pickup the sonic deficiencies with CA transports or DACs with no tube output stage. I guess it could be seen as a fortunate thing :)
Also as I reckon my hearing abilities are not as acute as the more senor audiophiles kdac/cd transport users on the forum,Not sure about that, you seem quite capable of describing the differences you hear with swapping out different parts.
I don't pickup the sonic deficiencies with CA transports or DACs with no tube output stage. I guess it could be seen as a fortunate thing :)Maybe you just know what you like?
Because of all the negative elements in the first impression listen, I was very reserved because I wanted to get a better grip on what it was doing to the sound while more awake, in the center, and with a good cross section of music I know well. It is so very different to the KDac's sound. This is neither good or bad yet, just very different, so let me live with it for a week, and I'll give you guys a more balanced view of what I'm hearing, but first impression is actually very high.Look forward to hearing your further impressions Mark. It sounds promising.
Steven, you can't really make that statement unequivocally.If that's the case why no has one optimized it properly. After all its been around a long time.
The Sabre DAC chip itself can be set up in many different ways and they all sound potentially somewhat different. It would take some time
to go through optimization of just the chip itself to see what it is really capable of.
Once you add the analog stage possibilities, power supplies, clocking it's a much more complex equation than the simple country boy 1541 into a
valve approach.
This also means the development is much more tricky. To do it properly and get absolute best from the Sabre DAC really requires a clean slate
approach as opposed to the usual modify this kit etc etc.
Z
If that's the case why no has one optimized it properly. After all its been around a long time.
If that's the case why no has one optimized it properly. After all its been around a long time.
How old was the 1541 before the KD was developed?The TDA1541A has been around,,, well I have chips with 1987 date codes.
You mean optimised it properly to your liking in your opinion. No offence Steve, but the arrogance of some of the statements made on this forum from time to time is staggering.I guess the perceived arrogance comes with experience, If you do this audio thing long enough, you end up with opinions, and if you are real good at it, they are usually right.
You mean optimised it properly to your liking in your opinion. No offence Steve,Opinion has nothing to do with the truth, There is 100,000 + audiophiles opinions, only one really matters, the Cello's. It's telling you what music sounds like, so is that guitar etc. They are the only opinion that matters.
Ah yes, how silly of me. I forgot that only "live unamplified cello and guitar music" matters. Best I ditch the other 98% of my music collection pronto! :)You are missing the point, You use these and other unamplified instruments as a tuning tools, they are telling you the sounds to aim for. If you are into heavy metal go there.
^ if I am missing the point, why do the systems which sound great on guitar/cello always sound compromised on electronic / rock / symphonic music?
^ if I am missing the point, why do the systems which sound great on guitar/cello always sound compromised on electronic / rock / symphonic music?Do they...... Aren't you the one that said in your previous post, quote (but the arrogance of some of the statements made on this forum from time to time is staggering)
Mark, Do have the original valves in your Kdac?Lets try that again. Hi Steve, I'm currently using AWM Super Radiotron Shouldered Bottle rectifier and National Gold Line outputs. I really like the sound of this combination so have kept it like this for some time now.
^ if I am missing the point, why do the systems which sound great on guitar/cello always sound compromised on electronic / rock / symphonic music?
IMV the TDA chip has an early roll off in the highs making it more 'romantic' or soft in the treble extremes, it also has higher distortion in the highs than modern chipsets, but that does not stop it in the KDAC implementation form sounding very good indeed.
Lets try that again. Hi Steve, I'm currently using AWM Super Radiotron Shouldered Bottle rectifier and National Gold Line outputs. I really like the sound of this combination so have kept it like this for some time now.Houston we have a problem (hi mark)
Cheers, mark.
In other words; it is inherently suited to the particular type of music (favoured by some on this forum), and is less capable on other types of music. That's a vastly different proposition to being inferior because someone hasn't been able to "omtimise it properly".I for one have no doubt the TDA chip will and can be bettered on some forms of music, But who knows the TDA may also be better than the modern chips on most forms of music, Anyway Talk is cheap, If anyone thinks they have a better digital front end, my door is open, It always has been open, many have tried, one day it will happen, Maybe it will be the modified Line Magnetic LM-502CA Dac, Lets hope so. I what Hi res. But my gut feeling is it wont happen, but going on the modified Line Magnetic inside parts list it will at least will be closer that the others and probably (as most) be in some ways better.
If the reference is your tape machine, and we are comparing recordings taken off your R2R machine, played on various dacs, compared to, the R2R itself......It's about Chip vs Chip, DAC Vs DAC. Not tape.
Then I think that is a reasonable yardstick to shoot for. :)
I thought we had all agreed in the past that there is never such a thing as an absolute 'best' in this hobby. Just 'different'? Or have we sadly reverted back to the mentality that it's either 'my way' or the 'wrong way'? The feeling I'm getting reading through the posts on this thread certainly seems like the later.WTF is illuminati?
Unless... KDAC owners = Illuminati?? :o :P
I thought we had all agreed in the past that there is never such a thing as an absolute 'best' in this hobby. Just 'different'? Or have we sadly reverted back to the mentality that it's either 'my way' or the 'wrong way'? The feeling I'm getting reading through the posts on this thread certainly seems like the later.Most people here don't own a KDac, yes, as discussed before so true there is no absolute 'best,' I just what to put the sabre chip debate to bed. No one around the world raves about them, They have been around for a enough time to be sorted out Anyway we are just having fun, nobody takes it all to seriously.
Unless... KDAC owners = Illuminati?? :o :P
It's about Chip vs Chip, DAC Vs DAC. Not tape.In order to fairly compare dac vs dac, you need an independent baseline.
In order to fairly compare dac vs dac, you need an independent baseline.Yes, very astute indeed, I like your logic. Closest to the tape wins.
Tape on your system sounds amazing.
Whichever dac gets closest to the actual source (the amazing sounding tape), wins.
Pretty simple.
The problem with not doing it this way, is the comparisons are driven by the music choices (which recording better suits).
Yes, very astute indeed, I like your logic. Closest to the tape wins.
So Mr. T, what digital processor / DAC are you currently using post the DDDAC? Must be good but we are yet to be informed.[/font][/size]
V
Bryan has to finish dialling in the LM, and we need to find a way to get it up here.
But I can feel a major GTG in the mountains coming on. :)
I see I see. Well I do hope one day he does manage to bring it up for others to have a listen and hopefully satisfy the curiosity.
Just thought it had read pretty obvious in Bryan's post, how he found it compared to his and Mark's KDACs.
"I can say compared to my killerdac and Marks killerdac there was absolutely no contest. It was killed."
Yet people trying to challenge/doubt his experience/opinion. Is there really any need for this?
Still currently using a lightly tweaked 4 stack DDDAC1794NOS (with custom sowter opts) fed via a WAVEIO USB-I2S interface board. With the DAC being powered with a new power supply (heavy duty CLCLC design), I am quite satisfied with the performance. The computer setup does make a noticeable difference to sq too (currently Win Server 2012 R2, Fidelizer 6, JRiver with memory play enabled).HOW MUCH IS WIN SERVER 2012 R2?
I also still have a KDAC/modded CEC TL-1 transport combo here that I sometimes refer back to, just to make sure I'm not deluding myself too much. :P
Oh, and finally a DIY Audial AYA-II USB/SPDIF DAC (TDA1541 16/44 based design with SS output stage) which sounds alright (usb implementation is old tech and I find sounds worse than spdif input), but overall can't say is anything special.
No we should all follow blindly and believe everything we are told ;DLine magnetic $2k plus free stake knives delivered ;)
Brian's comment was his opinion. He also said the DAC killed a $100,000 turntable set up.
Now let's think about this for a bit, a 2K dac sounds better than a 100K tuntable. Don't know
about you but that instantly turns on my Bullhsit filter
I have not heard this new DAC so I have no opinion. Lots of hype usually means lots of BS
and some sort of vested financial interest. I really like other peoples opinions except when
what they are really trying to do is flog me some latest and greatest piece of rubbish that
will be worth exactly 1 /10 of what it cost 3 months later.
Having had my rant I would like to add if this new device does indeed do what it claims then
expect that the price will probably triple into the next model which will probably be only half
as good as the original model.
Wonder how it compares up against my delightfully cheap, simple and unmodified Korg 100
DSD capable dac?
Line magnetic $2k plus free stake knives delivered ;)
I can not stress enough, Whether It's Marks system, mine, yours, there will always be a product be it amp, pre, Dac, transport, etc. that will gels with that system. Does that mean its a better sounding product, NO..... but right then and there on that system it is.
No we should all follow blindly and believe everything we are told ;D
Brian's comment was his opinion. He also said the DAC killed a $100,000 turntable set up.
Now let's think about this for a bit, a 2K dac sounds better than a 100K tuntable. Don't know
about you but that instantly turns on my Bullhsit filter
I have not heard this new DAC so I have no opinion. Lots of hype usually means lots of BS
and some sort of vested financial interest. I really like other peoples opinions except when
what they are really trying to do is flog me some latest and greatest piece of rubbish that
will be worth exactly 1 /10 of what it cost 3 months later.
Having had my rant I would like to add if this new device does indeed do what it claims then
expect that the price will probably triple into the next model which will probably be only half
as good as the original model.
Wonder how it compares up against my delightfully cheap, simple and unmodified Korg 100
DSD capable dac?
HOW MUCH IS WIN SERVER 2012 R2?
Gamv, I hear ya - and I do love the no BS style of your posts.
I think WRT turntables versus DAC's (and skirts) DAC's are consistently getting better so
they are often better than the TT.
WRT Korg, I'm always surprised when people are comparing these to mega dollar digital playback.
I have mine in bits and you get what you pay for. It is packing an ADC, DAC, mic pre, etc etc into a complete
recording device with HDD and control so there are huge compromises in the electronic design. It has to be this way.
The actual quality of the ADC is very good the DAC is also pretty good. The rest needs a lot of work, ie; power supplies,
clocks, analog stages etc etc.
Z
glowing review:
http://www.witchdoctor.co.nz/index.php/2013/06/line-magnetic-lm-502ca-vacuum-tube-dac-review/ (http://www.witchdoctor.co.nz/index.php/2013/06/line-magnetic-lm-502ca-vacuum-tube-dac-review/)
“Shindo of China” lol
some thoughts from Thorsten Loesch (he of AMR fame, http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/product_list.htmlWell, it shows not everyone of these manufactures has gone the way of the modern chip. Quote
Stake knives are not much good unless you have a problem with vampires...Garlic kills vampires not knives
Garlic kills vampires not knivesYou eat with steak knives...you kill with stake knives...especially ones covered in garlic...
You eat with steak knives...you kill with stake knives...especially ones covered in garlic...Steak knives?? you buy the wrong steak meat i don't need a knife for my steak
The Korg DAC I'm talking about is not a recorder it is a totally new product...mmm let me find a linkIt appears to run off usb power.
http://www.korg.com/us/products/audio/ds_dac_100/
Have a gander
It appears to run off usb power.
Garlic kills vampires not knives
Ok, so the jury's in on the LM 502 after quite a lot of listening. This is a modified unit and has the original 6Z4 rectifier swapped out for a NOS GEC 6X4, and the output tubes swapped out to Mullard NOS 12AU7's "superman" version. The mains wiring was replaced with Yamamura multi strand Cu with cotton insulation, the output wire replaced with Bryans "nazi" solid Cu,... whatever that is, and the signal caps replaced with Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oils. Nothing dramatic, just simple touches. I can't really tell you what the sound of the "out of the box" unit is, I heard it briefly on an "alien" system, but on that system, just changing the rectifier tube had a considerable impact.
I can honestly say that the LM502 synergised beautifully with my system and while being fed by my modified CEC transport, it equaled or exceeded the sound my KDac in virtually every discernible listening parameter you can name. I fully understand what a politically incorrect statement this is on a site dedicated to the KDac, and I will be burned at the stake for declaring it, but sometimes you need to put aside your prejudices and just listen "without blinkers".
This Dac in it's modified form, excels in the 2 areas that I deem highest on my priority list. Dynamics and Timbrel Rendering. It's blindingly fast if the music calls for it, and it reproduces micro/macro dynamics with aplomb, it's just so damn engaging. This I think this is the word that came to mind over and over,....engaging. It's sense of pace and rhythm is beguiling, it just draws you in and involves you. Many times while trying to analyze, I would simply be drawn into the performance, and the analyzing would stop. This is a damn good indicator something special is in play.
Engagement is driven by dynamics and pace/rhythm, beauty is portrayed by timbrel rendering, whether vocals, or acoustic instruments, and this is where this DAC really turns it up a few notches. It's portrayal of timbre is superb, not euphoric, not smoothed over or "glassey", just simply stunning.
Another area of particular remark is the 502's spacial reproduction. The recreation of space around performers and the original sound space where the recording took place is just amazing. Transparency is another area of excellence. It's ability to show you right inside the music is just indeed uncanny.
Towards the end of the night, we replaced the Mundorfs with Deulunds, and no surprises there, is became more relaxed, and cleaner/sweeter.
I won't bore you with an extended review, I will simply say if you're near my place, (Geelong), or you have a chance to investigate this DAC somewhere nearby, go and listen carefully for yourself. Remember,..this was a modified 502, I cannot speak for the standard offering, but these mod's are easy to perform.
So, will I put my money where my mouth is? You better believe it! I'll buy one in these units in the coming weeks and perform the same mod's Bryan has, then see if there are other areas of performance gain.
Now, let the Witch Hunt begin!!
No we should all follow blindly and believe everything we are told ;D
Brian's comment was his opinion. He also said the DAC killed a $100,000 turntable set up.
Now let's think about this for a bit, a 2K dac sounds better than a 100K tuntable. Don't know
about you but that instantly turns on my Bullhsit filter
I have not heard this new DAC so I have no opinion. Lots of hype usually means lots of BS
and some sort of vested financial interest. I really like other peoples opinions except when
what they are really trying to do is flog me some latest and greatest piece of rubbish that
will be worth exactly 1 /10 of what it cost 3 months later.
Having had my rant I would like to add if this new device does indeed do what it claims then
expect that the price will probably triple into the next model which will probably be only half
as good as the original model.
Wonder how it compares up against my delightfully cheap, simple and unmodified Korg 100
DSD capable dac?
I'm not selling Killer Dacs. I'm not selling parts for killer dads. I'm not selling a huge store of tubes and parts i've collected for the killerdac to all the owners every year or two and making money off it.
Some statement.... I do not sell Killerdacs, I don't build Killerdacs, I make no money from them at all, I don't sell parts virtually ever to anyone for them, I have not made any for years, So what are you on about Bryan, So who are you talking about.
I'm not selling Killer Dacs. I'm not selling parts for killer dads. I'm not selling a huge store of tubes and parts i've collected for the killerdac to all the owners every year or two and making money off it.
Ok, so the jury's in on the LM 502 after quite a lot of listening. This is a modified unit and has the original 6Z4 rectifier swapped out for a NOS GEC 6X4, and the output tubes swapped out to Mullard NOS 12AU7's "superman" version. The mains wiring was replaced with Yamamura multi strand Cu with cotton insulation, the output wire replaced with Bryans "nazi" solid Cu,... whatever that is, and the signal caps replaced with Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oils. Nothing dramatic, just simple touches. I can't really tell you what the sound of the "out of the box" unit is, I heard it briefly on an "alien" system, but on that system, just changing the rectifier tube had a considerable impact.Mark, Yamamura multi strand Cu. I have some of this wire in my amps, and i find it critical to use this wire to get the sound I am after, It has a glorious mid range beauty and involving nature. I find it can and does transform the sound of components I have used it in. It explains a lot about your impressions. If you what your new DAC to sound the same as Bryans you need to get some. Trouble is it's imposable to find. Luckily I have enough here to try if find these DACs cut it. So mark get some if you can, it does make a huge impact, and you will find it will not be the same without it.
I can honestly say that the LM502 synergised beautifully with my system and while being fed by my modified CEC transport, it equaled or exceeded the sound my KDac in virtually every discernible listening parameter you can name. I fully understand what a politically incorrect statement this is on a site dedicated to the KDac, and I will be burned at the stake for declaring it, but sometimes you need to put aside your prejudices and just listen "without blinkers".
This Dac in it's modified form, excels in the 2 areas that I deem highest on my priority list. Dynamics and Timbrel Rendering. It's blindingly fast if the music calls for it, and it reproduces micro/macro dynamics with aplomb, it's just so damn engaging. This I think this is the word that came to mind over and over,....engaging. It's sense of pace and rhythm is beguiling, it just draws you in and involves you. Many times while trying to analyze, I would simply be drawn into the performance, and the analyzing would stop. This is a damn good indicator something special is in play.
Engagement is driven by dynamics and pace/rhythm, beauty is portrayed by timbrel rendering, whether vocals, or acoustic instruments, and this is where this DAC really turns it up a few notches. It's portrayal of timbre is superb, not euphoric, not smoothed over or "glassey", just simply stunning.
Another area of particular remark is the 502's spacial reproduction. The recreation of space around performers and the original sound space where the recording took place is just amazing. Transparency is another area of excellence. It's ability to show you right inside the music is just indeed uncanny.
Towards the end of the night, we replaced the Mundorfs with Deulunds, and no surprises there, is became more relaxed, and cleaner/sweeter.
I won't bore you with an extended review, I will simply say if you're near my place, (Geelong), or you have a chance to investigate this DAC somewhere nearby, go and listen carefully for yourself. Remember,..this was a modified 502, I cannot speak for the standard offering, but these mod's are easy to perform.
So, will I put my money where my mouth is? You better believe it! I'll buy one in these units in the coming weeks and perform the same mod's Bryan has, then see if there are other areas of performance gain.
Now, let the Witch Hunt begin!!
I think some people here have got the wrong idea. Myself and many others think that this is just game, it is just a hobby, a bit of fun, all for the common goal, a better HIFI. Almost all do not take this hobby that seriously. Some here really need to look at the important things in life. And this hobby is not one of them, There is no Witch Hunt, Nobody really cares less, I Know I don't. When your life is in jeopardy or someone you love, then you will realize what really matters, and HIFI does not even rate. The older you get the more you understand life.
Now, let the Witch Hunt begin!!
BOOM - and there it is; the precipitant to so much of the pathology evident on this site!!Knowbody on this tread sells killerdacs. The only one who makes them, has not posted here for months. Only about 10 people on this forum even own them.
:) OK ok, snipers riffles down boys or the moderators will split their sides laughing! :P :P :P :P :PYes... I am laughing, it is so funny, Immature human nature at its best, I just love watching, or in this case reading it. Boy do you learn a lot about people.
It will be interesting mark. I want a HI RES dac that runs via a computer transport, plays DSD direct, it must play all formats. The main Problem is it must sound like analogue music, real with no digital artefacts at all, It must have great timbre plus musicality. None so far have done that, except one. Well hopefully nearly as good as my master tapes with my valve output. If this machine does that, I will wait for the next model and if it will play DSD, then I will spend on some new internal bits.
Can this DAC be modded to play DSD too? It would be great if it can be done so that Steve can start working to get the best out of it. That's right Steve, start working. You play computer games too much! :PIts not hirez its you tube and the man is called dean ray bring tears to my eyes with every song on xfactor
We have been talking about the hi-res KillerDAC in the past, haven't we? So, this could be it, the starting point :)
I think some people here have got the wrong idea. Myself and many others think that this is just game, it is just a hobby, a bit of fun, all for the common goal, a better HIFI. Almost all do not take this hobby that seriously. Some here really need to look at the important things in life. And this hobby is not one of them, There is no Witch Hunt, Nobody really cares less, I Know I don't. When your life is in jeopardy or someone you love, then you will realize what really matters, and HIFI does not even rate. The older you get the more you understand life.
I can see the Buddha buying a LM dac once it does DSD as he also seeks out diamonds in the murk of commercialism.I have been around long enough to know what smell like roses over there, could be some what wilted here, but at the price its hard to pass up for a play. One of the problems for me is Mark has changed the great valves that the Kdac was tuned around. He has chosen valves that really do sound very ordinary here. But as Mark said, he feels they suited his system. I will have to try one of these Dacs here first. Listening to a standard one will be meaningless. So I really need to Listen to this modified version, If it is better than mine here, well when the new model plays DSD am going to buy one and mod it. One word of warning, My KillerDac is at the top of its game, so finely tuned it is just amazing. Do I expect Bryans modified Dac to be better.....in some ways yes. Most good Dac are in some ways better. My gut feeling is in the areas that matter to me..... NO. Time will tell. It's fun times in audio guys. PS, Apparently Gamve and plasma guy have kissed and made up. Good, again all is quite on the western front.
I have been around long enough to know what smell like roses over there, could be some what wilted here, but at the price its hard to pass up for a play. One of the problems for me is Mark has changed the great valves that the Kdac was tuned around. He has chosen valves that really do sound very ordinary here. But as Mark said, he feels they suited his system. I will have to try one of these Dacs here first.
Listening to a standard one will be meaningless. So I really need to Listen to this modified version,
If it is better than mine here, well when the new model plays DSD am going to buy one and mod it. One word of warning, My KillerDac is at the top of its game, so finely tuned it is just amazing. Do I expect Bryans modified Dac to be better.....in some ways yes. Most good Dac are in some ways better. My gut feeling is in the areas that matter to me..... NO. Time will tell. It's fun times in audio guys. PS, Apparently Gamve and plasma guy have kissed and made up. Good, again all is quite on the western front.
The only other interesting looking tubed based sabre dac I have found is Fikus' Amber Lampi DAC. Does PCM and DSD.That is very tempting, but this is the one I would love to try,,,,,,,,
http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/Amber_Lampi_DAC.html (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/Amber_Lampi_DAC.html)
Base price of 1400euro which works out to be bit over $2k AUS.
In April 2013 I made an enlightening exercise. Just out of curiosity I designed a DAC that converts DSD data stream (all types known) to analog and does it WITHOUT SILICON. I’ve tried various chips - all kinds - some “DSD READY” some DSD through PCM and some real DSD.
As a chief designer I felt that Lampizator fame needs a DAC like no other. I created a converter that treats the DSD in pure analog domain and produces music in it’s virgin glory. Without any manipulation, digital processing, PCM conversion, delta sigma, or anything like that. I kept DSD in its purest native form and keep the sound with phase coherence, zero colorations or compression.
The sound is the purest copy of the original DSD recording I can think of.
It is a pity this type of product could not be released for sale.
The process is 100% free of active solid state components. Only tube active filters are employed. At the end the signal is amplified by triodes again - in the way we always have done at LampizatOr.
I don’t follow the world developments in this field and I don’t have time to read internet forums but I guess this must be one of the first such pure tube DSD DACs worldwide.
In my design I used the FM radio principle for tuning into the data stream and extracting music modulation from the carrier waveform. The technology therefore is based on the grandmother’s radio with the magic green eye.
Lukasz Fikus , Chief Designer and Owner
[snip]Mark, thanks for your post, really insightful. When you get your own unit, mod and dial it in for your system, I'd love to hear it sometime. I like to try and get down to Melb every couple of years or so, catch up with friends, and I am well overdue for a road trip down the Hume.
I can honestly say that the LM502 synergised beautifully with my system and while being fed by my modified CEC transport, it equaled or exceeded the sound my KDac in virtually every discernible listening parameter you can name. I fully understand what a politically incorrect statement this is on a site dedicated to the KDac, and I will be burned at the stake for declaring it, but sometimes you need to put aside your prejudices and just listen "without blinkers".
[snip]
So, will I put my money where my mouth is? You better believe it! I'll buy one in these units in the coming weeks and perform the same mod's Bryan has, then see if there are other areas of performance gain.
[snip]
Mark, thanks for your post, really insightful. When you get your own unit, mod and dial it in for your system, I'd love to hear it sometime. I like to try and get down to Melb every couple of years or so, catch up with friends, and I am well overdue for a road trip down the Hume.You're welcome anytime you're in the neighborhood, as is anybody on this forum who wants to hear this remarkable Dac. My Dac is on it's way, and I'll post here when it's modded and running sweetly. I now live in Batesford these days, just out of Geelong if any are within a drive a way.
Hi Terry,
As I don't understand how PCM/DSD input via I2S works in terms of switching between them and filtering requirements for the es9018 dac chip, since the USB-I2S module on this LM DAC does not support 384 or DSD, while that JLSound I2SoverUSB board we mentioned in the past does, would it be easy enough to replace the module in the LM DAC with the JLSound unit? Will the ES9016 chip auto pickup DSD signal and process it fine? Or does it require some software changes for it to switch over? I'm assuming it will play perfectly fine for bit/sample rates that the stock module does supports. Meaning powering the module with separate dedicated 5V DC into the module, will also bring potential benefits?
From image below, I can see the i2s lines, but I can't see any dedicated 5v input, so I assume the board just uses 5v from the 'noisy' USB line.. eek!
(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/0/6097/LM502CADACC_zps29cc9cdf.jpg)
You're welcome anytime you're in the neighborhood, as is anybody on this forum who wants to hear this remarkable Dac. My Dac is on it's way, and I'll post here when it's modded and running sweetly. I now live in Batesford these days, just out of Geelong if any are within a drive a way.Mark, where did you buy your new DAC and how much.
Cheers, Mark.
There are software players which can upconvert any DSD or PCM file to any DSD format up to DSD512.
So then the question becomes - why do I need a PCM DAC anyway?
Thanks for the info Terry.
I use JRiver MC which can do all that real time upsampling/downsampling as you mention. Would that be optimal for SQ though? Always had the understanding that it was best to replay at the file's native rate when possible? This does mirror my experience when attempting to realtime upsample 14/66 content to 24/192 which is the max my DAC can do. Also holds true when I set the software to downsample (realtime) 24/192 files to 16/44. I do have a small collection of 32/384 master files and some DXD/DFF files that I have the software to realtime downsample to 24/192. Still sounds great (mainly due to low compression to allow for all the dynamics to come through).
Is it all a different ball game when we start talking in the DSDxxx range?
Cool thanks again for the info. The WaveIO (http://luckit.biz/ (http://luckit.biz/)) I use is galvanically isolated, but I'm not sure if it is reclocks afterwards.
(http://luckit.biz/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/waveIO2.png)
Mark, where did you buy your new DAC and how much.Hi Steve, Graham bought both of ours via AliExpress for just under $1k each. Bargain! I believe these will be 240V versions.
Is this the one you guys bought?
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Line-Magnetic-Li-magnetic-LM-502CA-digital-audio-decoder/1026221_1639921542.html
I see the same seller has another one listed for nearly $200 less delivered, did you ask what the difference is?
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Five-Diamond-entity-Korea-magnetic-tube-hi-LM-502CA-digital-audio-decoder-Gold-Silver/1026221_1639867990.html
Hi Steve, Graham bought both of ours via AliExpress for just under $1k each. Bargain! I believe these will be 240V versions.I hope this makes the kdac resale low i will buy one again :-*
Cheers, Mark.
I hope this makes the kdac resale low i will buy one again :-*And when is that likely to be...
And when is that likely to be...
Rationalising? ???More holidays early retirement
Well, The word is in on the The Line Magnetic LM-502CA Dac. Is the fully modified Line Magnetic version the holly grail. More to come.The word is on the street that stevenvalve has ordered one and bryan is going to modd it for him....................
The word is on the street that stevenvalve has ordered one and bryan is going to modd it for him....................
The word is on the street that stevenvalve has ordered one and bryan is going to modd it for him....................Excellent, I'll get to hear it. :D
Interesting. I'm assuming these comparisons are using 16bit sources? (CD transport)
Interesting. I'm assuming these comparisons are using 16bit sources? (CD transport)I don't think that was in the equation, I don't think comparisons where involved, its more does the Line Magnetic cut it. Does it really make music, to some it may, but word is the modified Line Magnetic was disappointing. Particularly to the analogue users. If it is sent to me, i can give you a full on nitty gritty evaluation of its performance. Hopefully mark may be persuaded to eventually send his, but Bryan most certainly will not, after all he has had a lot to say and has everything to lose, including this credibility.
Oh that's a bit harsh Mr. G, ::) ::) losing credibility, :o come on, he is a talented system tuner / constructor and I for one believe him if he says he has got his sounding really good. Without getting into a pissing contest, if the LM unit works really well post mods in his system then that's great, a direct comparison of a full house KD unless tuned for his system is likely to sound different but to an individuals ears, possibly not a whole hill of beans better. It all comes down to personal choice and unless a blind listening test is done by a group of 4 or more dedicated types with the two units of interest its all largely conjecture IMV.V you forget Bryan made the claim... The Line Magnetic LM-502CA Dac kills the Killerdac...Then Bryan said... its a game changer, not it is a little better, or it maybe a system dependant thing, It's a full on statement. I guess the question is, if someone on a forum makes such a claim about a product and then people run out and buy it only to find out ultimately it's no game changer.. does that person lose some credibility. We are here to pass our knowledge on to other readers. We must have Credibility.
Somehow my guess would be that at 1K AUD direct (2.4k retail)unit is most unlikely to best a 5k+ product / labour of much gestation and care, just look at the ingredients......it made me wince a bit. :-X
V
I think what Gamve said has a lot of merit .We need to compare apples with apples . A base standard KD vs an unmodified LM ,or both fully modded .I think its a great dac to work on, and the one I would pick to play with, especially considering the price. Love the fact it has the important things, like Valve rectification and valve output,
The KD has had many years of development ,and the LM is fresh ,so maybe somewhere down the track the comparison will be more valid .
What I would like to know, is how good will the LM be when it is optimised .Is it a good base for development .
I like the idea of a dac that can even come close to the KD ,but accessible to the masses ,and affordable .We also need to be aware that to some of us ,small differences can seem huge because we have attuned ourselves to optimising even the smallest of details .To others the overall sound quality may appear to be closer .I suspect that these questions will require some time to evaluate .
What comparisons? (read above)This one...........
As to the question, on a well tuned wonderful sounding system is Bryans much modified Line Magnetic LM-502CA Dac a killerdac killer, They clearly say NO.
Yes 16 BIT sourcesThanks for clarifying. In my case 16bit is not the end game, I only use the format due to my hardware choices. I have a huge library of hi-res music, that would be nice to play in its native format.
"They clearly say NO"I dunno, i'm just quoting what is being posted. Steven, can you share with us who the fcuk they are?
Scratches head (who the fcuk are THEY)?
Why is it the ones who have the most to say are the ones who have not even heard the bloody thing. ???Who are you referring to? I dont have anything to say, beyond what I would like to hear, when steven gets his hands on 1 (ie: computer source or streamer, passing in 24bit).
"They clearly say NO"If they want to speak up, it's up to them, It's not my call. Not all post here.
Scratches head (who the fcuk are THEY)?
Why is it the ones who have the most to say are the ones who have not even heard the bloody thing. ???
A question for the technical, is there anything that challenging about just fitting a 'simple' but tube rectified output stage onto the outputs of a high quality sabre DAC based module (eg. Twisted Pear Buffalo IIISE or AckoDAC AKD12P) ? Then stick a USB-I2S module from JLSound into the I2S input of the DAC module and bobs your uncle, you have a high quality sabre based DAC with a USB module that ticks all the important boxes? Also being DIY'ers, can choose what parts (transformers, chokes, wiring, resistors, capacitors, tube sockets, rca sockets, etc.) you like ?Right on Tuyen, these look good, home work is important
Basically like what this guy did?
(http://i50.tinypic.com/dmd854.jpg)
What benefits or important factors would the Line Magnetic unit possibly have that the DIY'er above has not considered?
Also found another commercial offering (albeit crazy priced) of a Sabre based DAC with tube rectification and output which looks quite 'simple' (usb to i2s module -> into sabre dac module -> jensen balanced to unbalanced signal transformers -> tube output stage?) The Wavelength Audio Crimson HS USB DAC.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/wavelength-audio-crimson-hs-usb-dac (http://www.audiostream.com/content/wavelength-audio-crimson-hs-usb-dac)
(http://www.audiostream.com/images/72912crimson3.jpg)
Right on Tuyen, these look good, home work is importantreviewed unit has silver based transformers. Makes me wonder what system they are using as a reference to build it?
I have been doing my homework, and I have a new dac coming soon. The professor is building it as I type, what do you think of it.
Zenelectro, summed it up nicely, He can make a beautiful sounding Sabre base DAC, without all the Line Magnetics compromises. But at what price
It seems a few have bought one these dacs by so far no feedback.
Any reports? Steve did you get to try one I your system?
I Like mine. Put a decent 6X4 rectifier and some decent 12AU7's and that is the extent of modifications at least till the thing is fully run in. Is is a killerdac killer? Not with the minor modifications I have made. I'm not going to modify this unit to anywhere near what some others have attempted as I am happy enough with the standard performance for where I will be using it. Is it the best $1000 DAC available? Yes without a doubt. I brought mine for a second system and the bang for buck is undeniable. It does exactly what I expected and I am pleased with my purchase. Would I recommend it to others? Big fat YES.gamve, in what ways do you believe that the KDAC is better than the Line Magnetic DAC :)
gamve, in what ways do you believe that the KDAC is better than the Line Magnetic DAC :)
gamve, in what ways do you believe that the KDAC is better than the Line Magnetic DAC :)Ping its hard to go past a Line Magnetic DAC that costs $1000, and has the basics of what's needed the make good music. I will get one of these Line Magnetic DAC's or the newer model for fun eventually. Or one day soon someone will bring a modified one up here. The Kdac really is for someone who is super serious about music reproduction and really know's how to tune it to his system, and his system as a whole, It's capable of magnificent sound but I stress, in the right hands.
Ping its hard to go past a Line Magnetic DAC that costs $1000,
Sorry lads, I don't know anyone local who owns one of these units.
I think the Helmut was asking that much cos he had put better quality tubes in it, along with better output caps (Mundorfs).
I must confess that this dac does interest me, of course it would only be for background music when not using the TT. :DIf your using solid state amps any dac will do stop flogging a dead horse to win the Melbourne cup :P
I think with the AUD copping a hammering they're now around the $1400 mark plus shipping?
There is (or was) one for sale on SNA for $1200, which seems a bit pricey given the cost of a new one?
Are there any known to be in Perth for a demo maybe?
Cheers
Pete
Is there anyone in Sydney or Brisbane with 1 of these?
Well I guess the hype got to me and I bought one of these a few months ago.sibilants is often caused by poor solder joints, wire that has been flexed a lot, faulty component, etc. Pain I the ass to find. I usually resolder all the parts or at least the ones I have done recently. Sibilants can be nullified after prolonged use. If its bad usually there is a problem and a long run in will not fix it.
Haven't done any mods other than changing the tubes ... Marconi 6x4 & Mullard 12au7.
Previously I was using a Metrum Octave that was pretty good but I've fancied a tube dac for a while and the multitude of inputs on th LM dac appealed.
How does it sound? So far very good .... on most material better than the Metrum in my system and for the money, you can't go wrong.
I'm not completely convinced by it's handling of sibilants but I plan on doing some mods, mostly using parts I have at hand such as new choke, output caps, wiring etc.