The KillerDAC Audio forum
Tech Corner => Capacitors => Topic started by: brenden on March 23, 2015, 01:19:05 PM
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I have had some .01 copper foil Jupiters and decided to give them a run as bypass caps to get a handle on the sound quality .I initially placed 2 in my preamp to start with ,and put another 2 in if I got a good result .They replaced some exotic polystyrene copper foils which are my reference in plastic film and foil caps .
Without any burn in it was clear these caps are extraordinary .There was an amazing amount of detail being uncovered .For the first few hours these caps were bright ,and it was clear they needed burn in time. After that ,they flipped to the opposite , being overly rich or warm for a few more hours .
Once they began settling they became quite neutral .These caps have harmonic beauty ,wonderful detail and low level information, and unusual ability to unravel musical lines .Dynamics were also in the top class .
For a small bypass application I would place these in the very highest echelon of caps .
So ,I decided to install the other two .Then disaster struck .After bending the lead to install it ,it just snapped off in my hand .
WTF. These arent cheap . The lead broke off right at the epoxy end cap .I hope this isn't going to be a fault with these and it turns out to be a one off .
Anyway ,its not worth the hassle to try and send it back etc ,so I decided to nibble away the epoxy end and see if it could be salvaged . It looks good at this stage .I will use some of my own annealed silver wire and solder it to the exposed foil .
It certainly looks feasible at this stage .
I have found that the character of capacitors is remarkably similar when used for both coupling and bypass .
I am certainly encouraged by the sound quality to try some as coupling caps .I would avoid bending the leads close to the body in future ,but this shouldn't happen with good quality annealed silver .Hopefully it as just an isolated fault.
I will keep U posted with my repair job and take a couple of photos .
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.....................so I decided to nibble away the epoxy end and see if it could be salvaged...................
I had the same problem with a quality audionote cap, did as you did and got just enough wire to solder, worked fine.
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.....................so I decided to nibble away the epoxy end and see if it could be salvaged...................
I had the same problem with a quality audionote cap, did as you did and got just enough wire to solder, worked fine.
Yep same thing with my Duelund in my KillerDAC. You soldered it back after I butchered the lead! >:(
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Here is the repair
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/80197-capacitor-advice-for-leak-amp-please/#entry1316709
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Oh, its a little cutie. Must have been a fiddly repair.
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Not as hard as it looked Oz . There was another photo I didn't post showing another step .The original wire termination was still intact ,but wasn't very strong .The original solder joint covered roughly a quarter of the foil .
To make it stronger I chose a similar termination to the old Infinicap .This kind of termination is arguably superior and covered most of the foil .
I first tinned the exposed foil .I then tinned the coil of silver wire .That way I could get a very good termination without exposing the cap to too much heat .Then I placed the tinned coil of wire onto the cap and heated till it flowed onto the tinned foil .The join is probably strong enough without needing epoxy ,so will probably just slide a little heat shrink over it .
The price of these caps is still quite significant so was worth repairing .I will probably use it somewhere it cant be seen though ,LOL
By the way ,Sonic Craft have these on special till the end of the month .They are a good buy for this standard of cap . The great thing about these ,especially the .01 is the small size ,and you can fit them into places where you couldn't fit a Duelund
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Not as hard as it looked Oz . There was another photo I didn't post showing another step .The original wire termination was still intact ,but wasn't very strong .The original solder joint covered roughly a quarter of the foil .
To make it stronger I chose a similar termination to the old Infinicap .This kind of termination is arguably superior and covered most of the foil .
I first tinned the exposed foil .I then tinned the coil of silver wire .That way I could get a very good termination without exposing the cap to too much heat .Then I placed the tinned coil of wire onto the cap and heated till it flowed onto the tinned foil .The join is probably strong enough without needing epoxy ,so will probably just slide a little heat shrink over it .
The price of these caps is still quite significant so was worth repairing .I will probably use it somewhere it cant be seen though ,LOL
By the way ,Sonic Craft have these on special till the end of the month .They are a good buy for this standard of cap . The great thing about these ,especially the .01 is the small size ,and you can fit them into places where you couldn't fit a Duelund
I scored 4 / 0.47 Copper, from sonic craft. I will run them against the VSF. $1000 worth of caps for the leak was really over the top. $70 each seems more sensible, but do they cut it.
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I look forward to your comparison Steve.While the jupiters may not necessarily best the Duelund , they should give an excellent budget alternative or where space wont permit the use of duelunds .I picked up a few more Jupiters from Sonic Craft as well.
Dont forget the burn in. Used as bypasses mine sounded quite bright initially, but changed substantially in time .
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Brenden, i am just browsing through the sonic craft website, and i have noticed the jupiter solid core copper wire.
Have you tried it?
There is a particularly interesting one, with waxed cotton dialetric,,,,,
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/jupiter-solid-copper-waxed-cotton-28-awg-p-1896
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Hi Oz .I havent tried that one.I use silver that I have made in the US to my specs and then sheathed inpure natural silk .
I prefer 24 g if using single strand as it tends to balance the bass and highs better.
The copper jupiter in cotton would likely sound better than the bulk of plastic dielectrics including teflon based on my experience with natural dielectric, and I am sure Jupiter would be using high grade wire.The Jupiter is very well priced but best used in low level signal applications.
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Interconnects?
I was thinking of giving that 28awg wire a try, in a pair of ic's that was a 4 wire braid (2+2).
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Hi Oz .I havent tried that one.I use silver that I have made in the US to my specs and then sheathed inpure natural silk .
I prefer 24 g if using single strand as it tends to balance the bass and highs better.
The copper jupiter in cotton would likely sound better than the bulk of plastic dielectrics including teflon based on my experience with natural dielectric, and I am sure Jupiter would be using high grade wire.The Jupiter is very well priced but best used in low level signal applications.
Oz,
I have been looking for a decent solid core Cu wire for all new projects for quite some time now. Clearly un plated copper with cotton or
silk insulation is in the cross hairs but a big concern that no one seems to want to talk about is corrosion of the copper.
Normally copper will corrode slowly over time building up a slight oxide layer on the surface.
I can't find much info on it and haven't had any response from Jupiter directly.
Other alternatives:
- VH audio UPOCC with 'Airlok' insulation, a type of foamed insulation that gets closer to air dielectric.
- UPOCC with PTFE insulation
- Solid core Silver with whatever insulation (it doesn't corrode). Now before people here start belting me with the Silver = bright BS there are a few things to consider.
a/ I am talking solid core silver. b/ Many feel that the brightness is more related to the metal hardness, dead soft (fully annealed) being by far the best, ie; not brightl.
c/ Last week I did a listening test with a new amp I have built and a few different speaker cables. VDH silver cable was less bright and more musical than solid copper cables
to both of us. Dead soft temper, .999 purity, solid silver is easily available and not too expensive so I'm wondering if we have too hastily written off silver without fully
understanding / trying the variations available.
cheers
T
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The copper foil Jupiter Caps are very very nice and much smaller than Deuland VSP :)
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Clearly un plated copper with cotton or
silk insulation is in the cross hairs but a big concern that no one seems to want to talk about is corrosion of the copper.
Normally copper will corrode slowly over time building up a slight oxide layer on the surface.
I was thinking the waxed cotton would help reduce the corrosion/oxide build up?
Might not be as good as sealed teflon, but perhaps a little better than the loose teflon tubing i am using or dry cotton dieletric?
I've ordered some, to see what it is like.
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I was thinking the waxed cotton would help reduce the corrosion/oxide build up?
Might not be as good as sealed teflon, but perhaps a little better than the loose teflon tubing i am using or dry cotton dieletric?
I've ordered some, to see what it is like.
Go for it Oz,
I was reading one persons experience in that even with very old un-plated copper / cotton wire, when you pry back
the cotton insulation, the copper is shiny underneath.
Unfortunately I don't have any very old wire to verify this.
T
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I've seen that case (someone pulling back cotton on old wire), it's interesting isnt it. Its an example where theory and practise dont necessarily align.
The other thing i have observed, is that stripping copper and feeding it into loose teflon tubing, when i take this approach for making interconnects they tend to have top end zing, and they are also a bit dry sounding. Brenden mentioned in another thread somewhere about sensitivity to vibrations when copper is in 'air'. I'm hoping the waxed cotton dialetric gives me a nicer (less aggressive) top end to my bespoke IC's? I'll post about it in a more appropriate thread, when i get the jupiter wire (got a shipping advise this morning, it's en route).
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Guys about to install 4 of these Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax Capacitors into the leak, does anyone know the direction when installing into an amp.
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Craig does
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I'm hoping the waxed cotton dialetric gives me a nicer (less aggressive) top end to my bespoke IC's? I'll post about it in a more appropriate thread, when i get the jupiter wire (got a shipping advise this morning, it's en route).
The Jupiter (waxed cotton) copper wire has arrived. It looks to be pretty air tight to me. It has 2 layers of cotton, an inner and outer layer, with the outer layer very heavily waxed. It was actually difficult to trim off.
I cant workout if the inner layer has the same level of waxing? I need to strip it and take a closer look. I only managed to strip the outer layer last night.
Not sure when i can get around to making a pair of interconnects with this wire. When i have a spare couple of hours, i'ĺl do it and take photos as i go. Leave it with me.
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The Jupiter (waxed cotton) copper wire has arrived. It looks to be pretty air tight to me. It has 2 layers of cotton, an inner and outer layer, with the outer layer very heavily waxed. It was actually difficult to trim off.
I cant workout if the inner layer has the same level of waxing? I need to strip it and take a closer look. I only managed to strip the outer layer last night.
Not sure when i can get around to making a pair of interconnects with this wire. When i have a spare couple of hours, i'ĺl do it and take photos as i go. Leave it with me.
Oz, I received a reply from Jupiter WRT their cotton wire.
I'm pretty sure they are just covering their behind WRT not speccing any voltage rating on the waxed wire as vintage
Fender (and other) guitar amps used waxed cotton wire extensively with up to 450 volts DC.
Having said this, if you are using it in a DAC for high voltage applications and it's not fused, you have been warned. :)
Quote from Jupiter below:
Hi Terry,
The wire will oxidize, maybe faster than plastic insulated. However, corrosion should not be an issue, it's 99.99% pure oxygen free copper.
The cotton braid does not offer much dielectric strength or voltage withstand and not rated for a particular voltage. I only recommend using it for line level or speaker hookup, ie low voltage, a few volts.
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Also, if you slide the cotton coated wire inside a teflon tube you can have piece of mind with higher voltages and sound quality benefits of the waxed cotton .
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Cool Terry, thanks for checking. Only have enough to make 1 pair of IC's, and see how it sounds. Not intending to use it inside the dac or amp.
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I scored 4 / 0.47 Copper, from sonic craft. I will run them against the VSF. $1000 worth of caps for the leak was really over the top. $70 each seems more sensible, but do they cut it.
Well the Jupiter Copper Foil 0.47uF 600VDC capacitors have some great characteristics, including Transparency, speed, detail, they are also fairly open and extended. The weakness, they are a little lean, bright, and white, also they don't have the duelunds lovely lower midrange weight, warmth and energy, they lacked a little timbrel character. I feel that the Jupiters weaknesses stem from the use of the silver lead-out wires, sure these leads will give you clean transparency, but at what cost. Unfortunately most capacitor makers seem to be going down the silver route. They did many things better than the Duelund Copper Foil 0.47uF VSF, but at the end of the day the duelunds had more involvement weight and natural timbre.
There is a caveat, Jupiter sent me an email. quote
The caps are non polar, but to use the outside foil as a shield connect it to the lower impedance side of the circuit.
Chris Young
Jupiter Condenser.
Craig has listened to the Jupiter capacitors and feels they sound just superb, but only when they are installed in the right direction, if they are not set in the right direction they will sound ordinary. They are marked with a stripe but that mark is sometimes wrong and reversed in manufacture, despite what the manufacturer says, unless you can measure them it's hard to know if they are the right way around. I used 4 and that allows for a multitude of wrong combinations. I will send mine to Craig to get the right orientation and listen again.
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I ordered some of the older version, which have copper leads. But aluminium foil with beeswax used inside. :-X
Could be ordinary, but what would we do, if we didnt try new things. ???
Lets hope the older version isnt any good, they dont make 'em anymore. :'(
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/jupiter-vintage-cu-lead-047uf-600vdc-p-4516 (http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/jupiter-vintage-cu-lead-047uf-600vdc-p-4516)
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Well the Jupiter Copper Foil 0.47uF 600VDC capacitors have some great characteristics, including Transparency, speed, detail, they are also fairly open and extended. The weakness, they are a little lean, bright, and white, also they don't have the duelunds lovely lower midrange weight, warmth and energy, they lacked a little timbrel character. I feel that the Jupiters weaknesses stem from the use of the silver lead-out wires, sure these leads will give you clean transparency, but at what cost. Unfortunately most capacitor makers seem to be going down the silver route. They did many things better than the Duelund Copper Foil 0.47uF VSF, but at the end of the day the duelunds had more involvement weight and natural timbre.
There is a caveat, Jupiter sent me an email. quote
The caps are non polar, but to use the outside foil as a shield connect it to the lower impedance side of the circuit.
Chris Young
Jupiter Condenser.
Craig has listened to the Jupiter capacitors and feels they sound just superb, but only when they are installed in the right direction, if they are not set in the right direction they will sound ordinary. They are marked with a stripe but that mark is sometimes wrong and reversed in manufacture, despite what the manufacturer says, unless you can measure them it's hard to know if they are the right way around. I used 4 and that allows for a multitude of wrong combinations. I will send mine to Craig to get the right orientation and listen again.
I cannot stress enough, when i used these 4 Jupiter Copper Foil 0.47uF 600VDC capacitors, almost certainly some if not all would not have been set in the correct orientation, this means a lot (sound wise) according to Jupiter copper users.
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Hi Guys I am considering these to replace the 2.2mfd 450v in my Audiocentric.
Also wondering if I can use a 0.47uf.
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/jupiter-copper-foil-22uf-600vdc-p-4680
I will post a bit more about this DAC very soon as it is being fed i2s via a very special transport that has just come back from Terry complete with his clock!
Cheers
Matt
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Hi Guys I am considering these to replace the 2.2mfd 450v in my Audiocentric.
Also wondering if I can use a 0.47uf.
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/jupiter-copper-foil-22uf-600vdc-p-4680
I will post a bit more about this DAC very soon as it is being fed i2s via a very special transport that has just come back from Terry.
Cheers
Matt
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Hi Guys I am considering these to replace the 2.2mfd 450v in my Audiocentric.
Also wondering if I can use a 0.47uf.
http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/jupiter-copper-foil-22uf-600vdc-p-4680
I will post a bit more about this DAC very soon as it is being fed i2s via a very special transport that has just come back from Terry complete with his clock!
Cheers
Matt
The bigger Jupiter Copper Foil caps are not cheap, as they get bigger in uF, the price skyrockets.
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Hi Steve they are $156 each.
They would be replacing Auricaps in a fairly standard Audiocentric of the same values
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Hi Steve they are $156 each.
They would be replacing Auricaps in a fairly standard Audiocentric of the same values
Matt I have 4 Jupiter copper foil capacitors 0.47 just running them in now.
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Matt, I would also consider mundorf silver gold in oil caps, their top of line. I am currently running the silver in oil, next level down in my enterprise dac and it sounds very good. I believe the golds are a step up in naturalness. The sgo 2.2uf are $100 from sound labs., so you can even go up to 2.7 or 3.3. I currently have some 2.2 duelunds here but not got around to comparing these to mundorfs as the duelunds seem to be current reference. I'll expand later. Cheers, Terry
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Matt I have 4 Jupiter copper foil capacitors 0.47 just running them in now.
Steve, do you think there would be any issues in using them in place of a 2.2uf 450v?
The Mundorf's look inMatt, I would also consider mundorf silver gold in oil caps, their top of line. I am currently running the silver in oil, next level down in my enterprise dac and it sounds very good. I believe the golds are a step up in naturalness. The sgo 2.2uf are $100 from sound labs., so you can even go up to 2.7 or 3.3. I currently have some 2.2 duelunds here but not got around to comparing these to mundorfs as the duelunds seem to be current reference. I'll expand later. Cheers, Terry
The Mundorf's look interesting Terry and the price is certainly right.
I might start a new thread on my DAC and post pics.
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I'm not good with sound descriptions, but I have been listening to a pair of Jupiters in my phono, played about 65 LPs so far with them in. They are very nice caps, but my personal preference is still for the bass and mids of the Duelund Cu VSF's i had in there previously. Bass notes weren't as tight but had more layering of tones and texture, the mids were I feel a little sweeter/more seductive with female vocals. There may have been more weight to the VSF presentation too.
Still happy with the Jupiter, they are rich and detailed and have a nice depth to the sound stage....some will possibly prefer the tighter bass of the Jupiter caps....I just preferred some aspects of the VSF's.
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Steve, do you think there would be any issues in using them in place of a 2.2uf 450v?
The Mundorf's look in
The Mundorf's look interesting Terry and the price is certainly right.
I might start a new thread on my DAC and post pics.
Matt,
The problem with running 0.47 is that it will raise the low frequency crossover point a substantial amount. I have not done he calls as to what the HP freq is with the 2.2 but given that the 2.2 sounds different to a 2.7 I would estimate the lower 3dB point may be in the 5hz-10hz region.
Changing it to 0.47 would lift this by a factor of approx 5.
Ie could lift it to somewhere in the 25-50 Hz region substantially impacting the low freq performance.
Craig
Ps let me know if you have NFI. What I am talking about and and I will elaborate further.
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Matt,
The problem with running 0.47 is that it will raise the low frequency crossover point a substantial amount. I have not done he calls as to what the HP freq is with the 2.2 but given that the 2.2 sounds different to a 2.7 I would estimate the lower 3dB point may be in the 5hz-10hz region.
Changing it to 0.47 would lift this by a factor of approx 5.
Ie could lift it to somewhere in the 25-50 Hz region substantially impacting the low freq performance.
Craig
Ps let me know if you have NFI. What I am talking about and and I will elaborate further.
Ditto.
Just to add, in pro audio they generally allow 10 x factor for low frequency cut off point.
For example if a certain product is designed with intent to pass at least to say 20Hz, a LF corner point of 2Hz will be used.
The reason is a/ upward shift of LF point from multiple devices connectivity and b/ Phase shift errors.
For a/ If you have 3 devices connected all with a LF corner point of 20Hz, then resultant LF corner point will be more like 40Hz.
For b/ If the devices are single order LF cutoff design, ie; RC like Killer/ tube DAC then there is phase distortion. The cure is make the LF cut off point much lower
than required.
So getting back to the DAC 2.2uF cap, first question is what is the DAC driving? Typically a tube amp will have something like a 100k IP resistance. At 100k / 2.2uF
LF corner point is 0.7Hz. That is pretty good and easily allows for the 10:1 factor.
You could get away with 0.47uF if the IP resistance of amplifier is 470k or more. This would give the same 0.7Hz CF.
You could probably get away with 220k IP resistance, that would raise the CF up to 1.5 Hz, still very low, but I think
a listening test would be in order to see actually how much difference 470 versus 220 makes. You might be
surprised.
So yes you can use 0.47uF but the amp you are driving should have a suitably high IP resistance.
cheers
T
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Hi Zen .
That's basically the information I found when I was looking for a cap to go in my 94 .
My Stax CA-X is full FET . I don't know the input resistance . There is very little information on this preamp ,so I assumed it would be around 100k or more being FET .
Is there a way to measure the input resistance accurately ? Hope this is not a dumb question ,but not really clued up on this ,coming from a non technical background .
I am using a 2.2 Duelund ,after doing a rough calculation ,and also have a 3.3uf to try .
I didn't notice any discernible difference in the bass depth .
Anyway the Duelunds sound superb while still burning in . I am certainly hearing the influences of the Duelunds from when I heard Steves system .
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Hi Zen .
That's basically the information I found when I was looking for a cap to go in my 94 .
My Stax CA-X is full FET . I don't know the input resistance . There is very little information on this preamp ,so I assumed it would be around 100k or more being FET .
Is there a way to measure the input resistance accurately ? Hope this is not a dumb question ,but not really clued up on this ,coming from a non technical background .
I am using a 2.2 Duelund ,after doing a rough calculation ,and also have a 3.3uf to try .
I didn't notice any discernible difference in the bass depth .
Anyway the Duelunds sound superb while still burning in . I am certainly hearing the influences of the Duelunds from when I heard Steves system .
You can generally just measure it at the IP terminals with a meter. Disconnect the preamp from amplifier.
With fets you can easily have a 1M ohm IP resistance. Products like Ayre that use all fet IP circuits now
generally have 1M IP resistance as the designer feels they sound better as such.
T