The KillerDAC Audio forum
KillerDac => General Information => Topic started by: matt200sr on September 14, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
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Hi Guys,
It's been a long wait but Terry has delivered excellence in this modifying this CD94.
Gentleman behold... Marantzenelectro ;D
That's the last time I'll refer to as Marantzelelectro as it's such a mouthful. :o
Now aside from the usual tuneup and tweaks as well as fitting the Oscon's the Craig and Steve sent through (Craig you must invoice me for them) Terry has fitted and tuned his Zenclock and i2S reclocking board. Terry has made things super easy by making the receptical that facilitates the connection between battery and clock, also facilitate the charging of the battery. A toggle switch next to the receptical on the rear of the Marantz switches the clock on/off. Super easy for a dunce like me!
Well I got back from work Friday night and after a few family commitments were seen to I blew the dust of the Audiocentric and started planning. Now I should say that a couple of years ago I made a BIIIG mistake. Craig actually built me a Killerdac once. I waited patiently for over a year for it to arrive and pestered poor Craig often as to any developments and when it finally arrived I was ecstatic! I fed i2s via an old Offramp 4 converter/Macbook front end and I just loved it. Months went by... only 7 or 8 from memory and then I did something silly. I decided to sell my entire system as I took a career opportunity overseas. My original intention was to keep the KillerDAC however in a moment of stupidity I spoke with YoungMC who lives close to me and offered it to him. At the time I thought I was done with HiFi for a while and I could concentrate on work. Simon was rapped with Craig's creation and I suddenly felt racked with guilt as I recalled those times I pestered Craig to get it finished!
It seems like an age ago but only a couple of years have passed I found myself living back in WA and Terry still working through development of the Marantz which I had previously sent him so... when this Audiocentric came up for sale on SNA I jumped. Steve M owned this one and sold it to adrock's whom sold it to me. I think, and I am not sure but Steve M bout it from someone from this forum but I cannot be sure.
Back to the transport... Terry schooled me up on the best i2s connection to make from the BNC outputs he fitted on the transport and I got to work. I also fitted new ETI rca output sockets and cleaned up the dac in general. removed SPDIF connection and wiring from the DAC board. Dammit only one channel working! It was 11pm so I went to bed and was up at 5am the next day, re-soldered the socket on the offending channel and hooray music!
Span a few discs and instantly much more enjoyable than my other digital transport/dac. Just love it and really makes the DAC shine well ahead of feeding it a digital signal via SPDIF from an Oppo 105. The extra engagement that the transport provides is very addictive! Thank you Terry.
Now I am hooked! I want to get more out of this DAC and only have a basic idea how. See below for pics.
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Audiocentric
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More Audiocentric
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how deep are your pockets?
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Hi Mario
Fairly shallow to be honest but happy to fork out for output caps and anything else that might bring big gains.
I would like to grab any low hanging fruit so to speak.
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Hi Mario
Fairly shallow to be honest but happy to fork out for output caps and anything else that might bring big gains.
I would like to grab any low hanging fruit so to speak.
ask zen to intall tube rectification
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It's tricky to know where to best spend money on the Audiocentric - there's a lot that needs doing.
Here are a few things that will help.
1/ OP caps are worth changing, I'd probably go for Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold in oil. I'm sure they are not quite as good as Duelunds but for $100 each...
2/ The 14 x bit decoupling caps on AC DAC (where it says 7 x 100n) look like electrolytics. Use film caps - very important
3/ Tube rectifier for tube power supply
4/ Better chokes make a big difference
5/ Main tube HT supply caps
With my Enterprise DAC, I started from ground up and just changed everything from Audiocentric design.
There are still more things to do when time / budget allows but with your transport driving it the sound was pretty damn good.
cheers
T
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Hi Terry,
Thanks mate. The othere caps on the dac board look like electrolytics too, any harm in replacing those?
The Ht caps on the OP board are they the big caps adjacent to each other?
How important to use the same values when replacing caps?
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Just browsing for PCB risers to replace blutak, dowel and my foam support and seems at most are only obtainable in packs of no less than 100!
I only need 8!
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Matt,
Oscon caps are electrolyitc. They are not really the right cap to use for the 14 x bit decoupling caps on TDA1541.
These must be be film caps and physically small, mounted right next to DAC chip.
You can use Oscons for DAC PS decoupling but I would take Marios advice, use film caps. That's what I have done.
The Solens work well but I have used small size and mount them close to DAC.
cheers
Terry
Hi Terry,
The DAC PS decoupling caps are they the four caps on the DAC PS board?
Anywhere else I can use 'em as I have bought a shed load :)
So I will try to find 14 of the Solen 47uf film caps for the 14 x bit decoupling caps.
Thanks for the help Terry :)
Also on the hunt for Main tube HT supply caps (have no ideaof values as they have been skinned)
I will order some of the Mundorf SGO's Terry unless you want to sell me your Duelund 2.2uf's :)
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Hi Matt the 14 bit decoupling caps are normally 0.1 uf. I tried different sizes but preferred roughly 0.1
47uf may be a typo is it ?
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Hi Matt the 14 bit decoupling caps are normally 0.1 uf. I tried different sizes but preferred roughly 0.1
47uf may be a typo is it ?
Brendon thanks, 100u same thing? yeah?
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You probably mean 100n Matt, which is 100 nano farads .this is also equivalent to .01 uf .It can be confusing with all the zeros . :)
By the way ,I did the BG exercise around the TDA1541a on a 94 mk2 about 15 years ago
It was smooth but there was a lack of life in the .music .the top end was too polite and rolled off .
The 94 mk2 has 28 decoupling caps so is both a bit expensive and tedious .
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You probably mean 100n Matt, which is 100 nano farads .this is also equivalent to .01 uf .It can be confusing with all the zeros . :)
By the way ,I did the BG exercise around the TDA1541a on a 94 mk2 about 15 years ago
It was smooth but there was a lack of life in the .music .the top end was too polite and rolled off .
The 94 mk2 has 28 decoupling caps so is both a bit expensive and tedious .
100 nF = 0.1uF
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Hi Terry,
The DAC PS decoupling caps are they the four caps on the DAC PS board?
Anywhere else I can use 'em as I have bought a shed load :)
Are you referring to Oscons? What uF and Volts? You can use them elsewhere.
So I will try to find 14 of the Solen 47uf film caps for the 14 x bit decoupling caps.
Thanks for the help Terry :)
Solens are too big for 14 x bit decouple caps. These need to be physically small and right next to DAC.
Also on the hunt for Main tube HT supply caps (have no ideaof values as they have been skinned)
I will order some of the Mundorf SGO's Terry unless you want to sell me your Duelund 2.2uf's :)
The Duelunds are not mine they are in a PDX DAC that is being upgraded.
I think you should sit down and think through / cost an upgrade plan before going crazy buying stuff.
cheers
Terry
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You probably mean 100n Matt, which is 100 nano farads .this is also equivalent to .01 uf .It can be confusing with all the zeros . :)
By the way ,I did the BG exercise around the TDA1541a on a 94 mk2 about 15 years ago
It was smooth but there was a lack of life in the .music .the top end was too polite and rolled off .
The 94 mk2 has 28 decoupling caps so is both a bit expensive and tedious .
OK got it small little buggers, can you explain what you have done Brenden??
Thanks Terry - PCB does say 100n tho
100 nF = 0.1uF
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I think you should sit down and think through / cost an upgrade plan before going crazy buying stuff.
cheers
Terry
Yep agreed Terry - I have spent the best afternoon listening and really enjoying the system.
Oscons are these. Supposedly the real deal.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261428925046?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Yes 100n = 0.1 ,that was a typo sorry . Thanks for pointing that out Terry .
Best to stick with approximately 0.1 around dac in my opinion and get the best quality caps you can fit in .When you go bigger usually you have to sacrifice quality to fit them in .
At the moment I am evaluating different caps around the dac. I am beginning to build up a strong preference for copper foils around .1 size I currently have Panasonic PPS copper foil caps in the MSBs and also bypassing these with a .01 copper foil underneath the circuit board .
The bypass is a clear improvement .
These copper foils difficult to source so I am also trying some new old stock ERO Roederstein 0.1uf KP .These are excellent quality film /aluminium foils but still small enough to shoehorn in .
I also have some very high end Japanese Toichi copper foils in 0.1 that I would love to try but they are rather big so not sure if this is feasible .
I am currently using Duelund VSF on the output ,and these are wonderful .
I have been accumulating very high grade caps ,as I feel this is by far the biggest area for improvement in audio gear .My CD94 MK 2 will be testament to that .
There are a few areas that are usually overlooked when it comes to upgrading ,and one of these is the decoupling caps around the TDA1541 , The DEM cap next to the TDA1541 is also important. A copper foil polystyrene cap is perfect for here .There is also a cap that takes the digital signal prior to the SAA7210 decoder in the CD 94 and related drives . These are usually cheap polyester .
My CD is still a work in progress and is very time consuming but is becoming very rewarding with each improvement .My problem now is that replay is becoming so good ,I don't have as much urgency to do the next mod ::) Its all too easy to just sit and listen to amazing music .
I have the parts to complete the upgrades and then some ,but prefer to assess each upgrade individually .This is the only way to be sure I get every ounce of potential from the 94 .
My current aim is to end up with a showpiece one box CD player .
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Wondering if these are any good for decoupling my dac chip?
http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/polyester-film-capacitors/4879866/
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Yes 100n = 0.1 ,that was a typo sorry . Thanks for pointing that out Terry .
Best to stick with approximately 0.1 around dac in my opinion and get the best quality caps you can fit in .When you go bigger usually you have to sacrifice quality to fit them in .
At the moment I am evaluating different caps around the dac. I am beginning to build up a strong preference for copper foils around .1 size I currently have Panasonic PPS copper foil caps in the MSBs and also bypassing these with a .01 copper foil underneath the circuit board .
The bypass is a clear improvement .
These copper foils difficult to source so I am also trying some new old stock ERO Roederstein 0.1uf KP .These are excellent quality film /aluminium foils but still small enough to shoehorn in .
It depends whether you are hearing the type of cap or the ESR / ESL (impedance) - or both, I suspect the latter.
A lot of PPL are running 1uF surface mount film caps in very small form factor because they can be mounted very close to DAC.
I think the actual grounding probably makes more difference but it's hard to conclude as it's not easy to change grounds / board design.
There are a few areas that are usually overlooked when it comes to upgrading ,and one of these is the decoupling caps around the TDA1541 , The DEM cap next to the TDA1541 is also important. A copper foil polystyrene cap is perfect for here .There is also a cap that takes the digital signal prior to the SAA7210 decoder in the CD 94 and related drives . These are usually cheap polyester .
Again, size of cap makes more difference. The DEM frequency can be adjusted by size of cap and TDA will run over quite a range.
You can also synchronise DEM to BCK but there is a lot of 'discussion' if this helps .. or not. I haven't tried it yet. Might do that soon.
My CD is still a work in progress and is very time consuming but is becoming very rewarding with each improvement .My problem now is that replay is becoming so good ,I don't have as much urgency to do the next mod ::) Its all too easy to just sit and listen to amazing music .
I have the parts to complete the upgrades and then some ,but prefer to assess each upgrade individually .This is the only way to be sure I get every ounce of potential from the 94 .
My current aim is to end up with a showpiece one box CD player .
Are you running a DAC or modded CD94 - if the latter what OP stage do you have.
cheers
Tez
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Hi Matt .I wouldnt use those caps .They are polyester which is the worst performing dielectric for this application and audio in general .I may be able to help you out with some high grade caps if you want to , just PM me
HI Tez My CD player is a modded CD94mk2 . I wanted a one box reference player with a longer term goal of building a killer dac .The output stage is based on AD827 and AD847 .these are exceptional compared to standard stuff and there is no room for a valve output stage anyway .
Regarding the caps ESR and ESL definitely play a part but the dielectric definitely has a major impact on sound quality.Dielectric absorption seems to be a major contributor to sound quality and resonance likely to have an impact .damped foils like tin and copper sound sound superior to aluminium foils and metallised film.
I have plans to assess the differnt size dem caps .It has taken some time for me to source the high grade caps for this due to the unusual size pf values. .I was able to get some soshin SE mica caps for this .This cap is very expensive in Japan and not your average mica cap .They are 120pf which pushes the frequency up quite high but the mica caps are ideal for this .
I may look at reclocking the dem way down the track for a comparison , but could open a can of worms .
I have also changed the grounds on the dac board in the mk2 as the arrangement waa sub optimal and was an improvement also , but have changed back while modding as it made it more difficult to remove boards easily.Once I am finnished I will implement the revised ground .
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Hi Matt .I wouldnt use those caps .They are polyester which is the worst performing dielectric for this application and audio in general .I may be able to help you out with some high grade caps if you want to , just PM me
HI Tez My CD player is a modded CD94mk2 . I wanted a one box reference player with a longer term goal of building a killer dac .The output stage is based on AD827 and
AD847 .these are exceptional compared to standard stuff and there is no room for a valve output stage anyway .
WRT caps, Regarding the caps ESR and ESL definitely play a part but the dielectric definitely has a major impact on sound quality.Dielectric absorption seems to be a major contributor to sound quality and resonance likely to have an impact .damped foils like tin and copper sound sound superior to aluminium foils and metallised film.
WRT OP stage, I encourage you to try an open loop approach, they generally sound better than any opamp. A lot of PPL have had luck with AD844 running open loop.
Do a search, there is plenty of info around.
WRT caps, for signal coupling my results are varied. For example Munforf metalised silver / oil easily beat Rel Cap Tin / Polystyrene in my DAC. Polystyrene has lowest DA of
any and Tin is 'supposedly superior to metalised. Maybe the oil improves DA - I have not seen values for DA with these oil filled caps.
For digital PS bypassing form factor and impedance can make more difference than DA or DF. The rule here is smaller is better and a big part of the ESL is the leads
themselves.
But we are talking bit decoupling so it's an in between area. The cap is definitely connected to audio OP (indirectly) so DA may well be fighting form factor ESL/ESR
for a stake in the overall sonic results. It's fun this stuff! :)
So the big question is, for this application what is the most important characteristic, since we can't really have them all.
I'd love to get some of those copper PPS caps - can you spare enough for 1 DAC - or are they available anywhere?
I have plans to assess the differnt size dem caps .It has taken some time for me to source the high grade caps for this due to the unusual size pf values. .I was able to get some soshin SE mica caps for this .This cap is very expensive in Japan and not your average mica cap .They are 120pf which pushes the frequency up quite high but the mica caps are ideal for this .
I may look at reclocking the dem way down the track for a comparison , but could open a can of worms .
I have also changed the grounds on the dac board in the mk2 as the arrangement waa sub optimal and was an improvement also , but have changed back while modding as it made it more difficult to remove boards easily.Once I am finnished I will implement the revised ground .
What have you done to grounds?
Also WRT copper PPS caps, I have another sig coupling application in electric guitar where I need a very small cap that has very good audio quality.
However I need an ongoing supply for this application.
cheers
Tez
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Hi Tez , what size PPS caps do you need for your guitar ?
I have a lot of different sizes from small pf to about .047 uf . The 0.1 is very scarce unfortunately .These are very good caps
The physical size for these is also very small which is a bonus .
I dont have enough in 0.1 for a dac but will be able to work something out to use in the MSB which is the most critical .you will hear the difference .
I do have a nice treasure trove of exotic caps especially in many pf values so let me know if you need something special and also voltage rating .
Regarding polystyrene caps , they tend to be brighter than polypropylene and mylar .This makes it difficult to balance the frequency response and to blend in with electros in bypassing .I havent been a real fan of the relcap styrenes generally .My copper styrenes work beautifully in the DEM position and also for coupling digital signal .
I think polypropylene is more neutral for audio circuits out of all the plastic caps especially with copper foil .
I hope to try some toichi copper and some mundorf silver gold (non oil ) soon .
Its a fascinating subject .I am not sure the normal measurement parameters tell the full story .
I am still open to ideas on the output stages .I will have a chat with u one day .
The grounds on the 94 mk2 dac board take a terrible route half way around the machine past lots of
noisy circuitry .I basically redirect it directly to ground like good star grouding systems .
Same can be done to the filter /decoder board .wire size and quality is also important when doing this .
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Spent the weekend just gone enjoying Terry's transport and Audiocentric. For giggles i ripped a couple of well recorded cds and compared to the Klein DAC which is being fed by a new mac mini and jriver.
One disc was Ryan Adams live at Carnegie Hall and the other was one of Steves gold discs.
The Klein is very good, particularly when you consider its cost. I recall the Esoteric K07 i flirted with in my previous ML1 system and it shares the same qualities, the Klein may even be better.
The Marantz and Audiocentric playing the same 16 bit just sounds so... right. Emotion! This combination has it. I am glad i took the advice of others wiser than me. The old Philips DAC is bringing a great deal of enjoyment and i now know why they are favored amongst those that know better.
Im looking forward to experiencing what this transport can do with a better DAC but for now im having a seriously good time listening.
8)
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Well looks like I will be obtaining my old DAC back from Simon so the Audiocentric is available if anyone would like to get into seriously good sounding territory for a fraction of the time and cost.
The great thing about this DAC being it can be built upon over time should one have the required patience and tech know how. Unfortunately for myslef I have only small amounts of both ;D
As far as I can tell most if not all caps have been upgraded. I have fitted new NOS 645pi output valves Reflektors '77 dtae codes and have a '71 NOS pair of Reflektors I will also throw in. Other improvements I have made since owning are fit new ETI rca output connectors and removed all blutak holding pcbs in place and fit nice pcb risers. I also removed the spdif output. I could re-fit this if needed or leave this DAC all ready fro i2s.
Comes with the case cover of course all ready to go.
Looking forward to hearing what Terry's transport can do with the KillerDac.
Matt
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Forgot to mention - I'll let it go for a song to the right person :P
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Forgot to mention - I'll let it go for a song to the right person :P
I can't sing but i know some that can
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Hoping someone can help here..
Inputs on the killerdac that I just got back from Simon are wired common to the Empirical Audio Offramp as below.
Outputs on Terry's transport are data, wclk and blk.
data and sdata are one and the same?
is sclk wclk or blk?
making lr/clk wxlk or blk?
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/off-ramp-converter (pin outs half way down page)
also wrt pins where receiver chip would normally go which is what?
need help!!!
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Hi Matt,
Can you take a photo of the back of the transport, plus one of the connecting cables with the common grounding into the RJ45?
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See below for pinouts for the Offramp which the input of this Killerdac Craig wired common to.
Also a pic of the Neutrik female input on the dac and BNC outputs (rca adaptors attached) on the transport.
Just a thought but if the pin outs on the transport end of the cable were wired common to the Offramp i2s rj45 output does that mean the pins on the dac end are wired in reverse? I don't believe this to be the case as I never recalled having the cable the incorrect way round when I used the Offramp with this dac.
I think I am interpreting correctly that BCLK is the same as SCLK (Blue) and WCLK is L/RCLK (Green) and data or SDATA (Orange)
Each signal type had it's own ground back to the input on the dac and I think there is some issue here.
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Hi Matt,
on the chip socket:
pin 26 (orange wire) is the data (SDATA);
pin 11 (green wire) is the frame sync (FSYNC == WCLK, also referred to as Word select WS, and left-right clock L/RCLK); and
pin 12 (blue wire) is the serial data clock (SCLK == BLK).
I usually also connect a digital ground wire to pin 8, i guess that is the blue/white wire.
- richard
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Thanks Rab,
Terry actually fitted an RJ45 output in addition to the BNC's and wired the pins common to the Killerdac so I made up a super short cable and BAM! I now have music.
The cable was originally around 30cm long but I shortened it right down to 12cm.
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how deep are your pockets?
Shallow as F these days Mario
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Shallow as F these days Mario
you have to wait for the next mining boom coming next life time
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you have to wait for the next mining boom coming next life time
Yea it's ironic as I left a tier one mining company for other ventures when things were good and then waltz back through the door literally the exact week that the the spot price of iron ore started a long and consistent decline. They have been good to me to say the least.
Other rechid challenges are causing financial strain at present.
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Yea it's ironic as I left a tier one mining company for other ventures when things were good and then waltz back through the door literally the exact week that the the spot price of iron ore started a long and consistent decline. They have been good to me to say the least.
Other rechid challenges are causing financial strain at present.
kid? lol i have 3
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Well...
Due to a recent separation as well as lifes other challenges I have not had a system setup for some months now and with the Industry I work in tatters I am not hopeful of getting a new listening room any time soon either!
I am lucky to still have a job within a tier 1 resource company at least! ...They are looking after me well.
My journey will continue but not at this point in time when I need to focus on staying afloat in this ever increasing 'Water World'
What that means for me and sadly... If there is an interested party out there than my 2013 built KillerDac and fully modified Zenelectro CD94 transport is available for 'Expressions of interest'.
Such is life... ;)
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I should mention that I would prefer to keep the DAC (for another world), so if there is a KillerDac owner out there that would like a properly sorted transport then I may just sell the 'Marantzenelectro'
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matt i wish you the best in the future such is life we dont really know whats around the corner until we pass it..............