The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Other DACs => Topic started by: ozcal on August 09, 2011, 04:34:45 PM
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http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.mrelektronik.pl/&ei=iNRATv_3AaLiiALV_uGuBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMRelektronik%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DMpg%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Divns.
These are the ones Lukas Fikus uses in his stuff.
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http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.mrelektronik.pl/&ei=iNRATv_3AaLiiALV_uGuBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMRelektronik%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DMpg%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26prmd%3Divns.
These are the ones Lukas Fikus uses in his stuff.
The last clock looks good besides the smd components used but the power supplys used is a joke http://www.mrelektronik.pl/60.pdf
i hope mr.fikus doesn't use them.
ozcol buy one and try it
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Too expensive for me to try Mario.
Lukas's comments on the psu :
"I use reliable vendor MRelektronik from Poland and I ask for the best - 2nd gen (not 3rd) and with OMIG quartz (the best money can buy). Then you need a 10 V PSU with at least 5 VA transformer for 12 VAC and 7810 or 7809 regulator, small bridge and two good electrolytic caps before and after the regulator. The difference in sound is huge."
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Too expensive for me to try Mario.
Lukas's comments on the psu :
"I use reliable vendor MRelektronik from Poland and I ask for the best - 2nd gen (not 3rd) and with OMIG quartz (the best money can buy). Then you need a 10 V PSU with at least 5 VA transformer for 12 VAC and 7810 or 7809 regulator, small bridge and two good electrolytic caps before and after the regulator. The difference in sound is huge."
i have read that before the electrolytic used are junk
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What would you replace them with ? ;D
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What would you replace them with ? ;D
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-15000uF-50V-ELNA-Cerafine-LOA-Hi-Eed-AUDIO-CAPACITOR-/260786229608?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb8121168
or the old oscons http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2PCS-470uF-16V-SANYO-OSCON-SG-Audio-SOLID-CAPACITOR-/350414284217?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519651a5b9
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The last clock looks good besides the smd components used but the power supplys used is a joke http://www.mrelektronik.pl/60.pdf
i hope mr.fikus doesn't use them.
ozcol buy one and try it
These clocks (NDK) are fairly cheap TCXO's with reasonably good performance.
The one I sent to you would have at least 10 x lower (phase noise) jitter.
T
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Good to know T.
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What price for performance. I wonder if graham will buy me one of these for Christmas. How can these toys be justified at $22000.
http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/g01/indexe.html
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Esoteric-G%252d01-Master-Clock-Generator.html
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What price for performance. I wonder if graham will buy me one of these for Christmas. How can these toys be justified at $22000.
http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/g01/indexe.html
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Esoteric-G%252d01-Master-Clock-Generator.html
How the hell does one fit that inside a Wadia or CD94?
:o :o :o
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What price for performance. I wonder if graham will buy me one of these for Christmas. How can these toys be justified at $22000.
http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/g01/indexe.html
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Esoteric-G%252d01-Master-Clock-Generator.html
I would get Zen Clock and be done with it 8)
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What price for performance. I wonder if graham will buy me one of these for Christmas. How can these toys be justified at $22000.
http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/g01/indexe.html
http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Esoteric-G%252d01-Master-Clock-Generator.html
very easy steve one has a credit card which is stolen or they have very rich parents
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I would get Zen Clock and be done with it 8)
SHHHH he might charge 22k for one in a box
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A picture for V of my Battery powered tricord mark 2 clock. As you can see it's super modified. It's a simple design, much simpler than his later version, and far better. I even listened to about 6 crystals till i found 2 that sounded best. Yes crystals from the same batch do sound different. Even the battery's i tried sounded very different. most poor, one brilliant. This is the battery to get. Crazy hobby.
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A picture for V of my Battery powered tricord mark 2 clock. As you can see it's super modified. It's a simple design, much simpler than his later version, and far better. I even listened to about 6 crystals till i found 2 that sounded best. Yes crystals from the same batch do sound different. Even the battery's i tried sounded very different. most poor, one brilliant. This is the battery to get. Crazy hobby.
Zens clock pisses on trichord its like killer dac vs mp3
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SHHHH he might charge 22k for one in a box
Hi All,
10M clocks
Just a few words WRT Esoteric and other 10M / Rubidium clocks.
Firstly the Esoteric is by all accounts based on a Stanford Research Rubidium core with a lot of other stuff thrown in.
There are others such as Antelope Audio 10M and Stanford Research make their own 10M clock with very low jitter.
Here's the problem - DAC's (the convertor chip itself) don't require a 10M clock frequency. 10MHz is all but useless to
a DAC running at 44.1k / 48k or any higher multiple such as 96k etc.
The DAC will require a mclk or bclk that is a multiple of 44.1kHz which will be anywhere from 2.8224MHz to
22.5792 MHz. In the case of CD94 type transports it is 256 x FS = 11.2896MHz. Bingo - Zenclock freq.
Any audio DAC or transport that has a 10MHz IP will somehow have to either slave to it via a PLL or convert it via DDS (direct digital synthesis).
As such the jitter induced by that further process will be far greater than the 10MHz clock itself. So it's basically not a smart idea.
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Latest Zenclock and reclocker
Let's get back to 11.2896MHz and the CD94 type transport.
If we look at Steve's custom 11.2896 clock, this will then feed the SAA7210 decoder chip which then creates the 3 x I2S signals (data/bck/wck)
and we send those directly to the 1541 DAC.
As such the pure clock signal is corrupted by the SAA7210 itself. This is easy to see on even a 100MHz cro. The clock outputs a nice clean
square wave but the I2S signals coming from 7210 chip are full of rubbish, noise and jitter.
Many people try to alleviate this by upgrading various caps, power supplies etc etc on the transport and it certainly improves things to some degree
however there is no getting around this issue of the 7210 chip messing with the clock - regardless of how many esoteric parts you put in the transport.
I decided to address this by using a reclocking board after the 7210 chip that cleans and re aligns all 3 I2S signals to the low jitter master clock.
So all the damage that the 7210 chip does to the pristine clock signal is, to a very large extent reversed. The re clocking board uses a separate
chip for each of the I2S signals and they even each have a separate power supply so there is minimal interaction of the 3 signals.
All of the PS bypass caps are special high speed film caps that or not microphonic like ceramic caps. The whole board is on a solid copper board that is
right next to the Zenclock so there is absolutely minimal noise and corruption of the signals. The three re clocking chips are super fast, low jitter chips
that have very good drive capability to get the signals to DAC.
Further to this I have experimented with types of resistors and I2S signal levels. The standard 5V OP levels of the 7210 are not optimal for the
TDA1541 and this is pretty widely know these days.
To my ear this re clocking board made as much or even more difference than the clock itself.
Here's a pic of the latest Zenclock install just about finished for Rob. The reclocker board is just left of purple oscon and mounted right on the Zenclock
board itself. It's also right next to the I2S OP connector. Long runs of cat5 and esoteric parts look great but this tight, copper planed layout works
better WRT keeping those precious I2S signals clean.
cheers all,
Terry
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Love your work Terry . Just interested in the ps caps .what size and brand are they ?
Just trying to figure out how to get one of these clocks in a 94 mk2 .
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Love your work Terry . Just interested in the ps caps .what size and brand are they ?
Just trying to figure out how to get one of these clocks in a 94 mk2 .
Thanks. :)
The main filter cap for clock voltage reference is a Solen but I'm not sure how much difference it makes.
All resistors on clock board are carbon - non mag and non inductive - not just smoke and mirrors.
Most all of the caps on clock board are film caps, no ceramics as they are microphonic.
But anywhere there is high speed the caps are special high speed film caps soldered directly to copper plane.
The clock and reclocking board are powered by Battery. So the transports power supplies don't have a huge effect.
The clock will go easily in a 94Mk 2 but unless you run a DAC it's a bit of a waste of $.
I would say if you don't want to go with a separate DAC then a lot of PPL are using AD844 in open loop config with apparently great results.
I haven't used them so no personal experience.
When this player is done it will go to Craig C for setup with a KDAC so we can also do some tweaks.
cheers
Terry
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FWIW I'm currently looking at next gen higher freq Zenclock for Pro Audio ADC that I'm working on for recording applications.
These require 22 / 24MHz. These can also be used for PC -> USB DAC playback.
Unfortunately as clock freq goes higher the performance suffers slightly so these will have to be a higher spec clock but will cost more.
T
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[/quoteMost all of the caps on clock board are film caps, no ceramics as they are microphonic.
Hi Terry . I am glad u made this comment as it is very important . I have been modding up my teradak clock (valab) for a while now .
I have one by one replaced the caps with the best ones I have ,and increased the size of the filter caps to multiples of the originals .
But one cap that made a bigger improvement than all of the others was changing a 100pf ceramic in the onboard regulator in the clock . I assume it was there for stability .I chose a copper foil polystyrene for its high frequency performance .
The valab clock is good value for price but if u want super high end then general purpose capacitors are not good enough .Its clear that the clocks are very sensitive to the quality of the power supply fed to them .
Here is a pic of the clock .The little yellow cap is a source of grain and glare .
I have since changed out some ceramics in the 94 mk2 power supplies withe similar results .
My experience seems to support the view that ceramics have no place in audio circuits .
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[/quoteMost all of the caps on clock board are film caps, no ceramics as they are microphonic.
Hi Terry . I am glad u made this comment as it is very important . I have been modding up my teradak clock (valab) for a while now .
I have one by one replaced the caps with the best ones I have ,and increased the size of the filter caps to multiples of the originals .
But one cap that made a bigger improvement than all of the others was changing a 100pf ceramic in the onboard regulator in the clock . I assume it was there for stability .I chose a copper foil polystyrene for its high frequency performance .
The valab clock is good value for price but if u want super high end then general purpose capacitors are not good enough .Its clear that the clocks are very sensitive to the quality of the power supply fed to them .
Here is a pic of the clock .The little yellow cap is a source of grain and glare .
I have since changed out some ceramics in the 94 mk2 power supplies withe similar results .
My experience seems to support the view that ceramics have no place in audio circuits .
Unfortunately there will also be almost certainly ceramic cap(s) inside your oscillator can.
SMT Ceramic caps (mlcc) have the smallest form factor, lowest ESR ESL of any cap and so are used extensively in fast digital decoupling applications as they
are the most efficient at reducing digital noise and bounce. But they are also piezoelectric.
So the question becomes what is more important - good PS decoupling or a non piezoelectric cap?
I actually had the last batch of zenclocks made with a loose can (not welded / soldered) so I could remove the main mlcc power supply cap for oscillator.
As far as ceramics and regulators go - be careful, your regulator might start oscillating with the wrong cap. You really need a cro for this stuff.
Good luck.
T
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Nice work Terry, still plan to get my Wadia to you.
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Thanks for the advice Terry .I will keep an eye on it .But for now the improvement is way above the ceramic.
I figured the polystyrene foil cap would be very low esr and esl also ,but without the piezo effects.
But whatever the reason ,i am getting much better sound quality ,so I will monitor it for now
Maybe I should come down one day and pick your brains and get some measurement tips . :)
If there are ceramics in the oscillator can ,they can stay there for now . I generally steer clear of surface mount parts if possible. the best parts are almost always much larger when it comes to capacitors .
I would like to one day test these small copper foils against the ceramics to see how they compare with digital bounce and rf etc .
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Nice work Terry, still plan to get my Wadia to you.
No worries Oz any time.
How about I do a mountain run and catch up with a few people. I haven't seen you for ages.
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Thanks for the advice Terry .I will keep an eye on it .But for now the improvement is way above the ceramic.
I figured the polystyrene foil cap would be very low esr and esl also ,but without the piezo effects.
Yes ! WRT ESR / ESL it's all about size.... ;) or lack of it to be precise. Physically large caps cant have low ESR / ESL.
So for digital bypass you are looking for physically small cap, or the largest uF in the smallest case. There are exceptions
such as Tantalum caps which have higher ESR do to chemistry. But even now there are Tantalum / organic hybrid caps called
Poscap which have very low ESR and are super tiny. I haven't tried them - they may be very good - don't know.
You should try some.
But whatever the reason ,i am getting much better sound quality ,so I will monitor it for now
Maybe I should come down one day and pick your brains and get some measurement tips . :)
If there are ceramics in the oscillator can ,they can stay there for now . I generally steer clear of surface mount parts if possible. the best parts are almost always much larger when it comes to capacitors .
It depends - if its high speed and there are really fast edge rates like some of the logic these days, you have to be
careful with large caps.
I would like to one day test these small copper foils against the ceramics to see how they compare with digital bounce and rf etc .
I think for digital and not audio, the rules change.
You have to be very careful and not fool yourself. I remember once comparing two clocks and one 'won' the comparison.
But the loser had longer wires. When wires were shortened they were almost identical. It was just ground bounce that
was causing difference in sound.
So it goes. :) :)
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I guess that brings me to another observation with digtal circuits that surprises me .I find that the substitutiion of a mylar capacitor with a higher quality foil capacitor in a digital circuit gives me the same subjective benefits as substitution in an audio circuit .what can cause this ?
Its very clear ,to the point I have replaced nearly all of the cheap mylar caps with ultra high grade caps in my decoder/filter board and also around the tda1541a these respond very well th high grade caps .
Burn in is also the same ,a pain in the butt ,for digital .Does dielectric absorption cause some kind of jitter .or other noise .
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No worries Oz any time.
How about I do a mountain run and catch up with a few people. I haven't seen you for ages.
Sure mate. Give me a little notice, and we'll tee it up.
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I guess that brings me to another observation with digtal circuits that surprises me .I find that the substitutiion of a mylar capacitor with a higher quality foil capacitor in a digital circuit gives me the same subjective benefits as substitution in an audio circuit .what can cause this ?
Its very clear ,to the point I have replaced nearly all of the cheap mylar caps with ultra high grade caps in my decoder/filter board and also around the tda1541a these respond very well th high grade caps .
Burn in is also the same ,a pain in the butt ,for digital .Does dielectric absorption cause some kind of jitter .or other noise .
It depends where it is and what it does. If you are referring to 14 off bit decoupling caps on 1541, they are in audio path and low loss types are a benefit.
The 1541 actually runs fairly slow in comparison to modern cmos logic so is forgiving Wrt poor layout compared to say modern USB to I2S converter.
WRT decoder / filter board, I think they are a bit of a mess anyway. I couldn't see any way to make them work really well and I think all the various tweaks
are just choosing various flavors of the damage they do. That's why I did the reclocker board to take them largely out of equation.
I'm sure the re clocker board will also respond to various tweaks but I'd rather start from a solid foundation that is a better place.
T
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Hi Terry .The digital caps i was referring to are in the decoder board .
I agree the decoder board in the 94 is s bit of a mess as are the grounds, and the way they attached the dac board was sub optimal .
The reduction in distortion by replacing the mylar caps on the decoder board was easily as much as replacing a cheap cap in an audio circuit .
In fact ,it really surprised me .This isnt about flavours .My sole aim is to reduce typical distortions in every possible area of the circuits by using the very best engineered and lowest distortion parts available.
I have found that mylar caps anywhere in the circuit will stop a piece of equipment from reaching its true potential
With your cautions noted about ceramic caps in some sensitive circuits,my experience in replacing them so far has been overwhelmingly positive . The valab clocks are cheap ,so if there was a problem its easily replacable.
I suppose you could say i am trying areas that many dont consider to be worthwhile ,and I know some would say its digital and it cant make a difference ,but i say "lets just try it to see what happens ".Thats part of the fun .The discovery.
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Hi Terry .The digital caps i was referring to are in the decoder board .
I agree the decoder board in the 94 is s bit of a mess as are the grounds, and the way they attached the dac board was sub optimal .
The reduction in distortion by replacing the mylar caps on the decoder board was easily as much as replacing a cheap cap in an audio circuit .
In fact ,it really surprised me .This isnt about flavours .My sole aim is to reduce typical distortions in every possible area of the circuits by using the very best engineered and lowest distortion parts available.
I have found that mylar caps anywhere in the circuit will stop a piece of equipment from reaching its true potential
With your cautions noted about ceramic caps in some sensitive circuits,my experience in replacing them so far has been overwhelmingly positive . The valab clocks are cheap ,so if there was a problem its easily replacable.
I suppose you could say i am trying areas that many dont consider to be worthwhile ,and I know some would say its digital and it cant make a difference ,but i say "lets just try it to see what happens ".Thats part of the fun .The discovery.
Brenden,
Your experiences appear to consistently mirror ours so keep up the great work Sir.
Anybody that says 'it's digital so it can't/won't make a difference' imo has just drunk the marketing cool-ade and should
either experiment with modifications to some nice sounding gear or stick with the uber-high-spec commercial designs and
leave us delusional fools to tinker away into oblivion and insanity. I am pretty certain that the designers of higher
quality digital gear do not work with the 'it can't make a difference' pov when they are designing so it boggles my
mind why quite a few of the consumers and the ' knowledgeable' engineering types adopt this dogmatic viewpoint.
My very simple question is: " if it can't make a difference how in the heck do companies like dcs etc sell a $20k "master oscillator"
type of device. Either it makes a diff or it doesn't.
Thank the lord that One of the most talented digital guys I know ( T) does not operate with this mindset.
The unbelievers could optionally go and collect stamps.
Apparently under blind test conditions the outcomes change radically. That is not my personal experience
and I am pretty sure it is not Marios either. We all know that SteveG is of pretty much the same viewpoint.
I have done more blind tests than I care to demonstrate my ability to pick the differences, and now I am quite happy to
trust what I am hearing. Much more time efficient.
I can most very easily "prove" that " it's digital so it can't make a difference" is right, or wrong, depending upon
my choice of equipment upon which to demonstrate said claim. I am sure you know exactly what I am saying.
Cheers
C
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Thanks for the feedback Rawl . Its much appreciated.
I take an unconventional approach to my modifying .I look to every single component in the CD player or amp as a distortion generator Then I search for a superior lower distortion replacement. In most cases thats not too hard .Back in the 90s I was using clocks hooked up to batteries etc ,stuff that I never heard of anyone else doing .All the local guys thought I was nuts. It soon became clear that everything makes a difference .I experiment a lot with caps ,wire ,resistors ,circuit improvements and diodes etc.I know what works ,through thousands of experiments .Not having any formal electronic engineering training has been a hinderance in some ways ,but a blessing in others . I may not have tried many things that are suppose to make no difference.I have been at odds with posters on some other forums who cant open theiir minds to trying superior parts that can dramatically reduce distortion in audio gear .
Capacitors appear to be the weakest link musically so i have centred most of my study around different construction and materials and how they affect the sound quality. over the past few years I have been accumulating hard to find caps to rebuild my gear and now have an enviable parts box full of the best parts ever produced .
No audiophile type people have heard my system since I started up after a hiatus .It sounded horrible at the beginning ,,but after a couple of hundred changes its been transformed .
I now have a system I am proud of . Full of warmth dynamics ,timbral beauty ,separation ,ease ,density,detail .and still more to go . After divorce I will be moving to a mates place in October so not sure how my audio aspirations will pan out in the near future .All my audio gear goes with me :) Happy days .
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Auido - Divorce. :-\ Audio - Divorce. :-\ Audio - Divorce. :-\
Audio wins every time ;D
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Yep .
You can switch the audio off when u are tired .
My ex partner didnt have an off switch . Hopefully I can find some more time to catch up with some of you in the future.
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Yep .
You can switch the audio off when u are tired .
My ex partner didnt have an off switch . Hopefully I can find some more time to catch up with some of you in the future.
And when you ave found the perfect cap please start making them - haha.
PS - sorry about your split I hope things work out for future.
cheers
Terry
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Thanks Terry , I am looking positively to the future so its not all bad .
I still have music.
I think film capacitors have come of age in recent years .
As for the perfect cap ,closest thing imo is the Duelund and the Jupiter . Not sure if these will be improved apon in any meaningful way .in the near future .
I use duelund for coupling and jupiter for bypassing .. both give fantastic results .
There is a gap in availability of high end caps in the pf range which is a shame but I was lucky enough to source
what i need from new old stock .