The KillerDAC Audio forum
Tech Corner => Capacitors => Topic started by: kajak12 on September 05, 2010, 01:43:07 PM
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auricaps,hovlands,duellunds mundorf silver and oil
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no wonder electronics made in china fail how sneaky
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sly sh!ts!
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LOL! kinder suprise
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where did you get the photo from kajak?
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This may be a kinda newbie question but are caps of the same value always directly swappable. ie/ will a cap of better quality and of the same value always give a better sound? Or conversely will a cap of better quality with same value sometimes adversely affect the sound because of some other factors such as variation in value outside that stated of either cap.
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This may be a kinda newbie question but are caps of the same value always directly swappable. ie/ will a cap of better quality and of the same value always give a better sound? Or conversely will a cap of better quality with same value sometimes adversely affect the sound because of some other factors such as variation in value outside that stated of either cap.
depends in what part of the circuit
its a combination of caps that makes magic and that takes time
ps:i will never ever own speakers without duelunds in the crossovers AMEN
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Hi Mario,
I thought as much that a lot of it is trial and error. As I have to get a 3-4way passive crossover made the cost with extensive use of duelunds is prohibitive. I guess ultimately I will have to take things slowly and experiment ... see where it makes the biggest difference.....
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Hi Mario,
I thought as much that a lot of it is trial and error. As I have to get a 3-4way passive crossover made the cost with extensive use of duelunds is prohibitive. I guess ultimately I will have to take things slowly and experiment ... see where it makes the biggest difference.....
its a balance too much of one thing will upset the balance VERY SYSTEM DEPENDENT WHAT COMBINATION WORKS
its a long journey to the top if you want to ROCK&ROLL 8)
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Rock and roll indeed.
Caps tried:
Auricaps PP ;D great value, glimpse of hi end
Audionote PIO copper ::) Ouch expensive but very good
Black gates several ranges ::) needs too long to run in but good to very good
Solens PP and metalised PP ;D real value for money in speakers and digital circuits
PIO Dubuilier ;D when you can find them great in valve power supplies to settle those shocks
Sanyo Oscons ;D ;D comes in different flavours, only low voltage :-\ great for digital circuits
Tantalums- :D Naim use these a lot - fast extended HF with 'bounce factor' USe top brands at high voltages
PIO GE -
PIO Soggy foil (?) :)
Wimas PP ;D good for DAC's
Motor run - pp, high voltage - bit bright but great vlaue for money
Ero pp - :-X used by some v good UK designers in valve gear
Philips PP :) in high voltage ratings pretty good
Suflex polystryne ;D ;D maybe the ultimate TDA1541 caps
Silmic 2 Elnas ;D OK for voltage supplies
Silmic 1 Elnas ;D OK for voltage supplies
Elna - (red body) electrolytic ;D musical through the mids
Panasonic - various 8) Reasonably priced for what they offer - power supplies
British Aerovox large electrolytics :P Big power supply caps for transistor monsters
DNM slit film electrolytics ;D a step above all other electrolytics for transistor amps
Gosh, I could go on for ever here. There is a large difference in performance acording to where you use them. As Kajak suggested, its a balancing act to get the best from a design. Coupling caps or DC blockers are the best place to be able to hear the benefits of getting the right cap for the cuircut, power supplies are a fair bit tougher.
Having heard two Killer dac implementations with slightly different cap selections the 'focus' of sound is slightly different. SGR prefers the Duelands copper, our recent Dutch friend may appear to find the Audionote silver in oils better. A lot depends on implementation and it would appear the caps are not being compared in Oz and Holland for being in the same circuit so perhapts not the best results for those looking on. Both caps are expensive beyond the norm so a carefull appraisal of what circuit and at what operating paramaeters would be good for all to see. Generally the higher voltage rating of a cap results in a better sounding device in my experiance, your milage may vary.
Can some one else chime in here, this could be a very usefull resource. I have yet to try Jensen caps as these are supposed to be good to excellent .
rgds
V
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British Aerovox large electrolytics Big power supply caps for transistor monsters
great cap i used one in my wave player on the 12v power supply
i will use the aerovox for the naksa 100 watt project
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There are some cheap AmpOhms on eBay at the moment, very similar tonal characteristics to Duelund VSF imho, and at these prices (approx ~$25 a pair inc shipping) a very good buy. These are also a true paper in oil, and not a film in oil..
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-2-2uF-630v-DC-dented-NOS-/130472086693?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e60be0ca5
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-3-3uF-630v-DC-dented-NOS-/130472087975?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e60be11a7
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-4-7uF-300v-DC-dented-NOS-/140497611546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20b64f6b1a
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-4-7uF-630v-DC-dented-NOS-/140497612959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20b64f709f
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There are some cheap AmpOhms on eBay at the moment, very similar tonal characteristics to Duelund VSF imho, and at these prices (approx ~$25 a pair inc shipping) a very good buy. These are also a true paper in oil, and not a film in oil..
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-2-2uF-630v-DC-dented-NOS-/130472086693?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e60be0ca5
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-3-3uF-630v-DC-dented-NOS-/130472087975?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e60be11a7
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-4-7uF-300v-DC-dented-NOS-/140497611546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20b64f6b1a
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Audio-Capacitor-Paper-Oil-4-7uF-630v-DC-dented-NOS-/140497612959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20b64f709f
As usual, my timing is a day out. I just ordered a couple of pairs of the 2.2's for Gordon and my Satch's yesterday, at about 21 pound each.
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What no one else with capacitor experiance! :'(
Steve you've yet to add to the list, we all know you like the Duelands.
Maybe we could start a rating scheme for the various caps and resistors out there, a very usefull resource in my view.
Knowing where and what to use to replace the OEM's cut price offerings is invalueable in my view. Some really well thought out designs are balanced to a particualr sound with key components, change these and you can upset the apple cart. This probably only applies once you are into the > 5000AUD per item units as everything below this is practically 'mass produced down to a budget' ( this applies to commertial shop bought fodder not one offs or home / hand built).
As this is the Killer DAC site maybe caps and resistors applicable to this design would be a good place to start?
Over to you guys, I can smell the soldering irons from here!
V
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I agree with Vitavoxdude. I think a resource regarding caps and even other components such as tubes,transformers etc would be great. Also, how these components interact with other parts would be useful....Might save some of us newbies a lot of $$$ and time :)
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In regard to are caps swapable for simerly rated ones:
Voltage should be at least as high, check if this is AC or DC as it varies. Always aim for a higher rated cap as they are usually better built.
Caps maked x type are safe to use with mains voltages. Don't get this wrong - underwriters will walk.
If you have the tools, check the leakage and impedance.
Never missconnect large electrolytics getting positve and negative terminal round the wrong way - you will only do this once as the mess and smell takes ages to clean up, wear glasses or goggles around these large caps.
Always look for heat radiating devices close by, all caps are derated with increasing heat, valve amps are hard on electrolytic caps.
Some caps pick up hum worse than others, you may need to screen them with a copper foil jacket earthed to a star earth.
Caps can be microphonic too, always mount securely.
Modern caps usually have decent HF responce so less need for bypasses
If bypassing use a resistor to avoid multiple resonances.
Always try replacing electrolytics of smallish value with quality PP caps, size is the issue here.
Clean wire ends / insertion pins with wire wool prior to soldering and never touch them after cleaning - avoids dry joints.
Never use solder as a glue, always strive to make a mechanoical joint which is then immeresed in solder.
Always use a good quality solder and a soldering iron thats up to the job and prefferably temp controlled.
Before removing cap check PCB for polarity markings and if none mark onto pcb with indelible marker prior to removing cap.
Stick to Audio approved brands from reputable sources.
Allow 100 hours break in before deciding if they are any good as caps tend to be a bit 'splashy' and harsh / bright until bedded in.
Hope this helps ;D
V
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Here is a link to a usefull comparison. http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html
I like the elements used to judge the performance.
I use the Silmic 2 caps in replacing the caps in a lot of pro gear, they usally softens a normaly hard brittle top end where the manufacturer has used 20 cent caps instead of 2 dollar ones, we have to pay retail at around 4 to 5 dollars each, that represents adding another 200 odd dollars to the retail price so its easy to see why they use cheap rubbish. Modern caps usually are not only smaller for the same voltage and value but they have lowers ESR and better HF responce so good to change caps in gear > 10 years old to give it a new lease of life!
rds
V ;D
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That was an interesting read on the Silmics, thanks VVD.
Does anyone have any experience of F & T high voltage electrolytics as PSU caps ?
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come on!! how fake is the picture :o
1) who will use a rubycon to make a bootleg cap? ....the selling price of the rubycon is probably higher than the no brand cap
2) the no brand cap is rated 50v but the rubycon 35v...it will certainly get discovered very often when they blow up :P
(http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50.0;attach=359;image)
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come on!! how fake is the picture :o
1) who will use a rubycon to make a bootleg cap? ....the selling price of the rubycon is probably higher than the no brand cap
2) the no brand cap is rated 50v but the rubycon 35v...it will certainly get discovered very often when they blow up :P
(http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50.0;attach=359;image)
I agree, the rubycon is at least a OK quailty cap, does not make much sense. Who will buy the other rubbish anyway.
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come on!! how fake is the picture :o
1) who will use a rubycon to make a bootleg cap? ....the selling price of the rubycon is probably higher than the no brand cap
2) the no brand cap is rated 50v but the rubycon 35v...it will certainly get discovered very often when they blow up :P
(http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50.0;attach=359;image)
I agree, the rubycon is at least a OK quailty cap, does not make much sense. Who will buy the other rubbish anyway.
There are many who want to keep the appearance of what's considered vintage gear so maybe this setup was to retain the origonal appearance and pin spacing otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.
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Caps I have tried?
Here we go...for a start.
Mundorf S/O: very nice, good staging ect' but a little lightweight down bottom.
Obbligato Premium Gold: have them in my crossovers on the tweeter side, I like them...seem to add weight/warmth.
Obbligato Coppers: in my crossovers in the remaining positions 'as above' but a little less smooth maybe? but that's splitting hairs.
Obbligato MPK's (the black ones): used them in a Sansui AU-555 instead of small value electro's, seemed to be fast & dynamic.
Auricaps: had them in a pair of Richter Harlequin Mkll speakers, nice enough.
Russian PIO's: warm and smooth but wooly bottom and rolled off top, a bit smeared over all, I think.
Russian Teflon FT3's: smooth and transparent but too polite for my liking, a touch synthetic sounding.
Aerovox 470uf/500vdc screw terminals: these were used and in my amp till today.
Mundorf M-litc HV 200uf+200uf/500vdc: these replaced the Aerovox caps above and sound wise blow them out of the water, even without much time on them.
Meh..can't think of others off hand, and as you can see my experience is limited.
My opinions on sound could well be a result of the application, mainly to do with components working with them/along side them, hard to isolate the sound of a single component completely IMO. That synergy thing, system dependent...
Edit:Trying some Chinese Mil' surplus film & oil caps instead of the Mundorf S/O caps in coupling duties now, will wait a little before commenting on sound :)