The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Other DACs => Topic started by: Tjbroski792012 on February 22, 2012, 12:15:28 AM
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Hey guys, I am new to this board, and the whole world of modding electrical components in general. I am hoping that one of you guys could possibly help me in my endever of either having someone build me a really good dac, or suggest an off the shelf dac that I could have modded. or possibly help me build a dac myself. I am not really sure on where to start with this. I pmed "K" just a few minutes ago in regards to having him build me a dac. Is he the same person as Stephen? If not, how do I get in contact with him? Anyway, here are my basic questions;
1. How hard is it to build a dac yourself? Do I need to study electrical engineering for a while before getting started? Or are there designs out there that have some sort of instructions to follow?
2. Are there any dacs that you guys could recommend that I could pick up and have modded by either a board member here or possibly by myself? What mods deliver the best ratio or cost to performance? I have looked at possibly a Music Hall 15.2 or 25.2, a Cambridge Audio DacMagic, and also a Musical Fidelity V-Dac. Are those very easy to modify or are there any others that you might suggest?
3. Which board members do you recommend I contact to possibly have them build me a dac or modify an off the shelf dac? Email addys or phone numbers?
I wish I would have found this board a long time ago! Seems to be a great place with lots of friendly folks! Any help and/or advise you people could give me would be greatly appreciated!
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Hey guys, I am new to this board, and the whole world of modding electrical components in general. I am hoping that one of you guys could possibly help me in my endever of either having someone build me a really good dac, or suggest an off the shelf dac that I could have modded. or possibly help me build a dac myself. I am not really sure on where to start with this. I pmed "K" just a few minutes ago in regards to having him build me a dac. Is he the same person as Stephen? If not, how do I get in contact with him? Anyway, here are my basic questions;
1. How hard is it to build a dac yourself? Do I need to study electrical engineering for a while before getting started? Or are there designs out there that have some sort of instructions to follow?
2. Are there any dacs that you guys could recommend that I could pick up and have modded by either a board member here or possibly by myself? What mods deliver the best ratio or cost to performance? I have looked at possibly a Music Hall 15.2 or 25.2, a Cambridge Audio DacMagic, and also a Musical Fidelity V-Dac. Are those very easy to modify or are there any others that you might suggest?
3. Which board members do you recommend I contact to possibly have them build me a dac or modify an off the shelf dac? Email addys or phone numbers?
I wish I would have found this board a long time ago! Seems to be a great place with lots of friendly folks! Any help and/or advise you people could give me would be greatly appreciated!
What is your budget??? to spend on dac
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Hey guys, I am new to this board, and the whole world of modding electrical components in general. I am hoping that one of you guys could possibly help me in my endever of either having someone build me a really good dac, or suggest an off the shelf dac that I could have modded. or possibly help me build a dac myself. I am not really sure on where to start with this. I pmed "K" just a few minutes ago in regards to having him build me a dac. Is he the same person as Stephen? If not, how do I get in contact with him? Anyway, here are my basic questions;
1. How hard is it to build a dac yourself? Do I need to study electrical engineering for a while before getting started? Or are there designs out there that have some sort of instructions to follow?
2. Are there any dacs that you guys could recommend that I could pick up and have modded by either a board member here or possibly by myself? What mods deliver the best ratio or cost to performance? I have looked at possibly a Music Hall 15.2 or 25.2, a Cambridge Audio DacMagic, and also a Musical Fidelity V-Dac. Are those very easy to modify or are there any others that you might suggest?
3. Which board members do you recommend I contact to possibly have them build me a dac or modify an off the shelf dac? Email addys or phone numbers?
I wish I would have found this board a long time ago! Seems to be a great place with lots of friendly folks! Any help and/or advise you people could give me would be greatly appreciated!
What is your budget??? to spend on dac
As far as my budget is concerned, I really don't have a specific number in mind as I am building this system from the ground up, having only the speakers at this point in time. My budget for the whole system-preamp, amp, dac & cd player, is around $2,000 to $3,000.00. Right now I want to start with a somewhat cheaper dac, in the price range of say $300.00 to $700.00. I am not really sure how much it cost to have one built, or to build one myself, or to modify an existing dac. I have a buddy that has a Music Hall 15.2 and he will let me have it for next to nothing, so with that in mind, I am considering trying to modifying the Music Hall 15.2 in hopes of bringing some better sound quality into the unit. My overall goal is to end up with a dac that performs as well as a Wyred 4 Sounds Dac1 and a Benchmark Dac1. Any suggestions?
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Get a audiogd dac wired forsound and benchmark are just ordinary dacs
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What is an Audiogd dac and where do I purchase it? Are there any mods that I could do for an off the shelf dac? Specifically the Music Hall 15.2? Also, in regards to preamps, I am highly considering the Parasound 2100. Are there any mods that could be done with this preamp or any other off the shelf units? I am really starting to shy away from building anything myself, from the ground up. It looks like a custom built dac is out of my price range, so that leaves modding existing off the shelf units. I see guys talking about moddified pramps, amps, cd players, dacs, all the time. So I know there has to be some way of improving the stock units. Any suggestions?
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What is an Audiogd dac and where do I purchase it? Are there any mods that I could do for an off the shelf dac? Specifically the Music Hall 15.2? Also, in regards to preamps, I am highly considering the Parasound 2100. Are there any mods that could be done with this preamp or any other off the shelf units? I am really starting to shy away from building anything myself, from the ground up. It looks like a custom built dac is out of my price range, so that leaves modding existing off the shelf units. I see guys talking about moddified pramps, amps, cd players, dacs, all the time. So I know there has to be some way of improving the stock units. Any suggestions?
http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm
Have you got any technical knowledge?
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What is an Audiogd dac and where do I purchase it? Are there any mods that I could do for an off the shelf dac? Specifically the Music Hall 15.2? Also, in regards to preamps, I am highly considering the Parasound 2100. Are there any mods that could be done with this preamp or any other off the shelf units? I am really starting to shy away from building anything myself, from the ground up. It looks like a custom built dac is out of my price range, so that leaves modding existing off the shelf units. I see guys talking about moddified pramps, amps, cd players, dacs, all the time. So I know there has to be some way of improving the stock units. Any suggestions?
http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm
Have you got any technical knowledge?
I have a decent amount of technical knowledge. Enough to feel comfortable installing some various components.
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What is an Audiogd dac and where do I purchase it? Are there any mods that I could do for an off the shelf dac? Specifically the Music Hall 15.2? Also, in regards to preamps, I am highly considering the Parasound 2100. Are there any mods that could be done with this preamp or any other off the shelf units? I am really starting to shy away from building anything myself, from the ground up. It looks like a custom built dac is out of my price range, so that leaves modding existing off the shelf units. I see guys talking about moddified pramps, amps, cd players, dacs, all the time. So I know there has to be some way of improving the stock units. Any suggestions?
http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm
Have you got any technical knowledge?
I have a decent amount of technical knowledge. Enough to feel comfortable installing some various components.
I have a decent amount of technical knowledge. Enough to feel comfortable installing some various electrical components.
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What about this one for sale here http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=731.0
Has a nice custom case and some mods done.
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I am really starting to shy away from building anything myself, from the ground up. It looks like a custom built dac is out of my price range, so that leaves modding existing off the shelf units. I see guys talking about moddified pramps, amps, cd players, dacs, all the time. So I know there has to be some way of improving the stock units. Any suggestions?
Hi, I’m new to this forum, too. I suggest you reconsider building from scratch. It will take far more effort but the potential is much greater. The modding I see here and in other forums amounts to just tinkering around the edges. As I see it, the Satch Max DAC, linked to in the above post, has several fundamental flaws that cannot be addressed by swapping capacitors. Similar flaws are prominent in nearly all the inexpensive DACs that are popular with modders.
For starters, the S/PDIF receiver is a CS8414 mounted on a DIP adapter. The CS8412/14 is ancient technology and the addition of the adapter makes it perform at its worst. It is imperative that bypass capacitors be mounted as close as possible to the power and ground pins of the IC. Even more important is placement of the PLL filter components. It is so important some data sheets include a suggested PCB layout to achieve the best performance. If the S/PDIF receiver is not optimum, adding boutique parts elsewhere in the circuit isn’t going to fix it.
I have an older AD1865 DAC and the first mod I did was to replace the CS8412 with a CS8415A that emulates the operation of a CS8412 in mode 6 using surface mount parts on a small PCB. Visible in the bottom view (on the right) is the CS8415A with bypass caps soldered directly to the IC’s pins. The improvement I experienced was beyond anything I could have imagined and it convinced me of the importance of observing proper digital circuit layout. As a result, I gave up my modding efforts and started designing my own DAC because that was the only way I could insure attention to every detail I thought important.
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Hi tam,
Welcome to the forum.
1 of the most common mod's in this little community is to bypass spdif senders/receivers altogether!
Take the I2S signal off the transport, pass it direct into the Dac chip.
This mod was a major leap in playback transparency and coherency on my system. Definetly worth exploring.
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I2S is fine for distances of an inch or two but it is not suitable for longer connections. The only problem with S/PDIF is nearly every serial input DAC chip uses the recovered bit clock for the sample clock. This use was not intended when S/PDIF was designed.
I prefer S/PDIF to transmit the data, only, use a crystal oscillator next to the DAC chip to provide the local clocks, and export a master clock to sync the digital source. Compared to I2S, S/PDIF is a real digital transport protocol that uses phase-modulated encoding with parity checking. I like error free data.
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Good point Tam. I have experimented with i2s lengths and have always found when the connections are as direct as possible, always given the better sonic result. Both my dacs are running direct i2s connections of <2cm between the modules.
Cheers
Tuyen
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Good point Tam. I have experimented with i2s lengths and have always found when the connections are as direct as possible, always given the better sonic result. Both my dacs are running direct i2s connections of <2cm between the modules.
Cheers
Tuyen
Ensuring strong voltage at the source overcomes distance issues. I use 55cm interconnects, and it is significantly better than spdif from the same transport.
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hi oz,
how do you manage or control the voltage at the source? i've only ever wired the units directly up with cat5, no buffers/regulators/trimpots inbetween.
ive found i2s better than spdif with the cd94. but then again the cd94 uses the cs8412/4? which is reported to be an old/bad chip compared to more modern units. So not sure if I can completely rule spdif always being detrimental to the signal into a dac. What about DEM reclocking? I'm not that technical, but does that overcome some of the issues? As a few highly reported tda1541 dacs feature this.
I can recommend if possible, trying 1-2cm connections and compare them to your current 55cm. I noticed sharper more precise imaging of the soundstage. Which makes the sound feel more open and 3d.
The zanden dac which uses spdif still so good, one of the best tda1541 dac, even when using the same transport. Pity it price is quite high.
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hi oz,
The zanden dac which uses spdif still so good, one of the best tda1541 dac, even when using the same transport. Pity it price is quite high.
I bet zenden will be better running i2s
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I am really starting to shy away from building anything myself, from the ground up. It looks like a custom built dac is out of my price range, so that leaves modding existing off the shelf units. I see guys talking about moddified pramps, amps, cd players, dacs, all the time. So I know there has to be some way of improving the stock units. Any suggestions?
Hi, I’m new to this forum, too. I suggest you reconsider building from scratch. It will take far more effort but the potential is much greater. The modding I see here and in other forums amounts to just tinkering around the edges. As I see it, the Satch Max DAC, linked to in the above post, has several fundamental flaws that cannot be addressed by swapping capacitors. Similar flaws are prominent in nearly all the inexpensive DACs that are popular with modders.
For starters, the S/PDIF receiver is a CS8414 mounted on a DIP adapter. The CS8412/14 is ancient technology and the addition of the adapter makes it perform at its worst. It is imperative that bypass capacitors be mounted as close as possible to the power and ground pins of the IC. Even more important is placement of the PLL filter components. It is so important some data sheets include a suggested PCB layout to achieve the best performance. If the S/PDIF receiver is not optimum, adding boutique parts elsewhere in the circuit isn’t going to fix it.
I have an older AD1865 DAC and the first mod I did was to replace the CS8412 with a CS8415A that emulates the operation of a CS8412 in mode 6 using surface mount parts on a small PCB. Visible in the bottom view (on the right) is the CS8415A with bypass caps soldered directly to the IC’s pins. The improvement I experienced was beyond anything I could have imagined and it convinced me of the importance of observing proper digital circuit layout. As a result, I gave up my modding efforts and started designing my own DAC because that was the only way I could insure attention to every detail I thought important.
what improvements in sound quality did you hear between receiver chips?
what system are you running amps,dac,speakers etc????
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So not sure if I can completely rule spdif always being detrimental to the signal into a dac. What about DEM reclocking? I'm not that technical, but does that overcome some of the issues? As a few highly reported tda1541 dacs feature this.
i2s will always be ahead of any spdif just ask zenelectro for technical jargon........
regarding dem reclocking depends what clocks and power supply's are used i hope zenelectro will have something this year for me to try.
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how do you manage or control the voltage at the source? i've only ever wired the units directly up with cat5, no buffers/regulators/trimpots inbetween.
Danny fitted an output buffer with regulated voltage on the i2s outputs. This has worked absolutely brilliantly. I was not prepared to have open cdp/Dac cases, and wires running in between, with kids running around.
I will be trying a JKeny Hiface with i2s output at some stage. If this gets close to the cd94, then I will fit it internally in the Dac with short wiring.
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what improvements in sound quality did you hear between receiver chips?
what system are you running amps,dac,speakers etc????
I made the S/PDIF receiver gizmo several years ago to experiment with DAC linearity. At the time, my audio system was CD-based, no PC, and the only way I could modify the sample data was with hardware.
The AD1865 is an 18-bit DAC. Shifting the sample data one or two bits to the right, preserving the sign bit, would not truncate the data but move the conversion into a different position in the R/2R network and perhaps change the sound quality. I wasn't expecting the new receiver chip to make any difference. The digital-analog conversion in the AD1865 is triggered by word clock, not the bit clock as it is in most other serial input DAC chips. The chips in the CS841x series all generate the word clock (aka FSYNC) based on the timing of the S/PDIF preambles and is not dependent on the PLL.
I was surprised by the improved clarity and resolution. An additional benefit was the ability to receive sample rates up to 192K even though the CS1815A is only rated to 96K. I attributed all that to the careful layout of the digital circuit surrounding the receiver chip. The experience also encouraged me to quickly migrate to PC-based digital audio and design my own DAC.
At the time, my audio system included:
Speakers: Avantgarde Acoustic Trio (Omega);
Amp: Art Audio Jota (monoblocks);
Preamp: Hovland HP-100 with MC phono stage;
Vinyl: SME-30, SME IV-Vi, Cardas Heart;
CD: Sony 707ESD, Audio Note DAC 1.2;
Cables: DIY;
Power: Equi=Tech 1.5RQ & 2.0RQ;
Stands: Grand Prix Audio Monaco.
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what improvements in sound quality did you hear between receiver chips?
what system are you running amps,dac,speakers etc????
I made the S/PDIF receiver gizmo several years ago to experiment with DAC linearity. At the time, my audio system was CD-based, no PC, and the only way I could modify the sample data was with hardware.
The AD1865 is an 18-bit DAC. Shifting the sample data one or two bits to the right, preserving the sign bit, would not truncate the data but move the conversion into a different position in the R/2R network and perhaps change the sound quality. I wasn't expecting the new receiver chip to make any difference. The digital-analog conversion in the AD1865 is triggered by word clock, not the bit clock as it is in most other serial input DAC chips. The chips in the CS841x series all generate the word clock (aka FSYNC) based on the timing of the S/PDIF preambles and is not dependent on the PLL.
I was surprised by the improved clarity and resolution. An additional benefit was the ability to receive sample rates up to 192K even though the CS1815A is only rated to 96K. I attributed all that to the careful layout of the digital circuit surrounding the receiver chip. The experience also encouraged me to quickly migrate to PC-based digital audio and design my own DAC.
At the time, my audio system included:
Speakers: Avantgarde Acoustic Trio (Omega);
Amp: Art Audio Jota (monoblocks);
Preamp: Hovland HP-100 with MC phono stage;
Vinyl: SME-30, SME IV-Vi, Cardas Heart;
CD: Sony 707ESD, Audio Note DAC 1.2;
Cables: DIY;
Power: Equi=Tech 1.5RQ & 2.0RQ;
Stands: Grand Prix Audio Monaco.
Tell us more about your dac?
what chip and output stage? (any photo's?)
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Ensuring strong voltage at the source overcomes distance issues.
Regardless of the starting voltage, a single-ended clock, like the I2S clock, will degrade over distance. A good clock requires fast transitions because slow transitions lead to uncertainty in determining exactly when the clock changes logical polarity and that creates jitter. Not only is the I2S clock single-ended, it is not pre-conditioned and is rarely transmitted with a proper driver. Usually it’s just the output if a simple logic gate. That’s why my preference is to slave the digital source to the DAC clocks and not the other way around.
Tell us more about your dac? what chip and output stage? (any photo's?)
I don’t discuss work in progress and the DAC has been “in progress” for a long time. I am wrapping up what I hope is the last revision (I’ve heard that before) and when it and the new casework is finished I’ll have something to say about.
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Regardless of the starting voltage, a single-ended clock, like the I2S clock, will degrade over distance. A good clock requires fast transitions because slow transitions lead to uncertainty in determining exactly when the clock changes logical polarity and that creates jitter. Not only is the I2S clock single-ended, it is not pre-conditioned and is rarely transmitted with a proper driver. Usually it’s just the output if a simple logic gate.
Tam, don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that shorter distances will minimize errors. In practise, my buffered i2s connections were a significant leap forward, over the previous spdif implementation. I don't doubt that spdif could be better. But by the same token, limiting the use of i2s to only 2cm distances is not necessary in my experience.
That’s why my preference is to slave the digital source to the DAC clocks and not the other way around.
we can agree on this. And if using PC as a source, I see significant merit in leveraging async USB connections, and reclocking at the Dac end.
Tell us more about your dac? what chip and output stage? (any photo's?)
I don’t discuss work in progress and the DAC has been “in progress” for a long time. I am wrapping up what I hope is the last revision (I’ve heard that before) and when it and the new casework is finished I’ll have something to say about.
Tam, if you are worried about IP, then it sounds like this is your profession, and that you intend to create a commercial product or design for sale when completed. We welcome commercial interests, I'd just ask that you take a look at the following forum guidelines, in particular the 'Commercial Products and Vendors' section.
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Forum Guidelines (http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=24.0)
Commercial Products and Vendors
As this is a community based forum, we welcome any commercial vendors to contribute and be made welcome.
We have established a 'commercial vendors' forum where you are welcome to advertise your products. You are welcome to create the in that forum, the following:
- One thread for use as a general discussion thread regarding your products. Please use this thread in an ongoing manner
- One thread for use as a 'current specials', 'sale' type thread. Please use this thread in an ongoing manner.
You are of course welcome to participate in any other forums as you wish as any other member is. You ARE allowed to:
- Mention, discuss or direct people to your threads.
- Put your company details, contacts etc in your signature. Please be minimal and appropriate in this (no half page banners, flashing lights, embedded flash etc)
Too much flagrant self promotion will lead to warning, and then banning. Be nice and mindful that this is an information sharing site.
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And if using PC as a source, I see significant merit in leveraging async USB connections, and reclocking at the Dac end.
I see no merit in USB. Adaptive USB is probably the worst digital audio interface imaginable. The same with Firewire. It's the same as USB: It's faster but doesn't have guaranteed bandwidth allocation. All async USB does is move the origination of the S/PDIF signal from the PC chassis to the end of a USB cable. It's still S/PDIF. In the end, your DAC is still using a VCO clock that is phase locked to the S/PDIF signal. Reclocking in the DAC doesn't change any of that. All it does is add jitter and noise.
Tam, if you are worried about IP, then it sounds like this is your profession, and that you intend to create a commercial product or design for sale when completed.
I'm a retired programmer. I have no IP! I have nothing to gain sharing my work in progress. Writing things up and taking pictures wastes my time because, by the next day, I will have decided to do things differently.
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I was under the impression that the whole point of 'asynchronous' anything, is that it is not locked to the source.
If you have any technical references that contradicts this, I'm happy to receive/read them.
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I was under the impression that the whole point of 'asynchronous' anything, is that it is not locked to the source.
If you have any technical references that contradicts this, I'm happy to receive/read them.
Sorry, I don’t have any references. If you think having the DAC clock not locked to the source is a good thing I doubt there is anything I can say that will change your mind.
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Sorry, I don’t have any references. If you think having the DAC clock not locked to the source is a good thing I doubt there is anything I can say that will change your mind.
Yes I do. If you don't care to discuss it, then that's fine.
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It's not that I don't want to discuss it, I love to talk about this stuff, it's just that I don't think you will be receptive to my way of looking at things. The tip-off was your mention of reclocking. If you believe reclocking is a good thing than, IMO, you don't have sufficient knowledge of digital circuits to understand what I would be talking about. BTW, this is getting way off topic. Perhaps you should move this discussion to another thread.
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And if using PC as a source, I see significant merit in leveraging async USB connections, and reclocking at the Dac end.
I see no merit in USB. Adaptive USB is probably the worst digital audio interface imaginable. The same with Firewire. It's the same as USB: It's faster but doesn't have guaranteed bandwidth allocation. All async USB does is move the origination of the S/PDIF signal from the PC chassis to the end of a USB cable. It's still S/PDIF. In the end, your DAC is still using a VCO clock that is phase locked to the S/PDIF signal. Reclocking in the DAC doesn't change any of that. All it does is add jitter and noise.
Tam, if you are worried about IP, then it sounds like this is your profession, and that you intend to create a commercial product or design for sale when completed.
I'm a retired programmer. I have no IP! I have nothing to gain sharing my work in progress. Writing things up and taking pictures wastes my time because, by the next day, I will have decided to do things differently.
just give us a rough idea about the dac like the output stage at least it will fill some hunger for info
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just give us a rough idea about the dac like the output stage at least it will fill some hunger for info
I've already said I don't talk about work in progress. Perhaps you could start a pool to guess the design parameters.
Input: S/PDIF, USB, I2S, TCP/IP, Firewire, other.
Oversampling: none, 4x, 8x, 16x, other.
Converter: multi-bit, delta-sigma, discreet R/2R, other.
I/V: resistor, opamp, transistor, tube, other.
Output: transformer, tube, opamp, transistor, other.
power supply: linear, SMPS, battery, other.
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just give us a rough idea about the dac like the output stage at least it will fill some hunger for info
I've already said I don't talk about work in progress. Perhaps you could start a pool to guess the design parameters.
Input: S/PDIF, USB, I2S, TCP/IP, Firewire, other.
Oversampling: none, 4x, 8x, 16x, other.
Converter: multi-bit, delta-sigma, discreet R/2R, other.
I/V: resistor, opamp, transistor, tube, other.
Output: transformer, tube, opamp, transistor, other.
power supply: linear, SMPS, battery, other.
Are you serious? waste of time imho
when you do make a dac send it to australia for audition some people in audio are all show no go,when we press play its the only thing that counts the rest is bs.
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when we press play its the only thing that counts the rest is bs.
Then why did you want to know what the output stage might be? I'm beginning to think this group is nothing but bs pushers who have memorized the latest buzzwords, like async USB, and reclcoking, but don't have a clue as what it means or how it works. I won't waste any more of your time or mine.
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It's not that I don't want to discuss it, I love to talk about this stuff, it's just that I don't think you will be receptive to my way of looking at things. The tip-off was your mention of reclocking. If you believe reclocking is a good thing than, IMO, you don't have sufficient knowledge of digital circuits to understand what I would be talking about.
It's true that i dont. But that doesn't mean I won't understand. And there are others here, who may understand what you say more deeply than I.
It's a commonly held view at the moment, that the best way to receive data from a PC is via an async data connection, where the receiving end does not depend on the quality of the source clock. I would like to hear why you think this view isn't correct.
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when we press play its the only thing that counts the rest is bs.
Then why did you want to know what the output stage might be? I'm beginning to think this group is nothing but bs pushers who have memorized the latest buzzwords, like async USB, and reclcoking, but don't have a clue as what it means or how it works. I won't waste any more of your time or mine.
If you use opamps in the output stage i wont even try the dac why you may ask?opamps make me cry
as for bs pushers latest buzzwords i don't even use a pc as a source i think computer audio is not good enough yet(and my tda1541 dac is not the latest buzzword.
I can tell you now that the power supply for clocks is very important and so are the components around the clock to me smd resistors or caps are a no no they belong inside mobile phones.
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Go easy Oz, this bloke has a product coming up so will not be too keen on giving the game away.
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when we press play its the only thing that counts the rest is bs.
Then why did you want to know what the output stage might be? I'm beginning to think this group is nothing but bs pushers who have memorized the latest buzzwords, like async USB, and reclcoking, but don't have a clue as what it means or how it works. I won't waste any more of your time or mine.
I am certainly interested hearing about your DIY dac and all the stuff you make. Your experiences are helpful, so we can all learn,
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when we press play its the only thing that counts the rest is bs.
Then why did you want to know what the output stage might be? I'm beginning to think this group is nothing but bs pushers who have memorized the latest buzzwords, like async USB, and reclcoking, but don't have a clue as what it means or how it works. I won't waste any more of your time or mine.
There are some knowledgable folk here on this site as well as the purveyors of key words as you pointed out, I'd suggest you stick around for some of the pearls that come up every now and then, they are not alway just about DAC's despite being called the KDAC forum ;D
v
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It's not that I don't want to discuss it, I love to talk about this stuff, it's just that I don't think you will be receptive to my way of looking at things. The tip-off was your mention of reclocking. If you believe reclocking is a good thing than, IMO, you don't have sufficient knowledge of digital circuits to understand what I would be talking about. BTW, this is getting way off topic. Perhaps you should move this discussion to another thread.
Hi Tam,
We endeavor to try and keep this place respectful - and work through differences of opinion using the combined experience here.
WRT reclocking versus whatever, I think we agree that the whole objective is to have as low jitter as possible at the DAC chip.
As such, the ultimate solution is to have a fixed clock -at the DAC chip-.
USB -> I2S can acheive this if done correctly.
There are many subtle differences between receiver chip / I2S / USB -> I2S. I have pretty good experience and understand and working with this stuff but as always
there is more to learn.
IMO, generally speaking using just receiver chip is the worst option.
cheers
Z
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stick around if you have time, id be interested to learn more about your dac. you seem very technically knowledged like our tech guru 'zenelectro'. you guys would hit it off me thinks! :)
cheers
tuyen
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when we press play its the only thing that counts the rest is bs.
Then why did you want to know what the output stage might be? I'm beginning to think this group is nothing but bs pushers who have memorized the latest buzzwords, like async USB, and reclcoking, but don't have a clue as what it means or how it works. I won't waste any more of your time or mine.
Tam,
Please state your case respectfully and explain clearly. If you feel that re clocking is not a good idea then
you should explain why. I will most certainly understand what you are talking about and am interested in your POV,
even if it is controversial.
Controversial opinions and approaches are often the fruits of progress.
I think you will find most of the people here are extremely open minded and actually embrace solutions that
are not necessarily the status quo.
cheers
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Regardless of the starting voltage, a single-ended clock, like the I2S clock, will degrade over distance. A good clock requires fast transitions because slow transitions lead to uncertainty in determining exactly when the clock changes logical polarity and that creates jitter. Not only is the I2S clock single-ended, it is not pre-conditioned and is rarely transmitted with a proper driver. Usually it’s just the output if a simple logic gate. That’s why my preference is to slave the digital source to the DAC clocks and not the other way around.
WRT slaving source off the DAC clock - yes this is a good solution.
In fact the DAC that Steven used before the series of 'Killer DAC's' was configured this way.
The master clock was inside DAC box, it was sent back to the transport with a dedicated BNC connected line.
So jitter was very low. However there are other issues and added complexity.
I think I2S is a good solution, most of the people here who are using it, have very short connection distances.
To put it in perspective, I think a badly implemented I2S, even with sub optimal driver is better than a receiver
chip and it's inferior PLL generated clock. And that would mirror the results most people have had when implementing I2S.
Also it is not that difficult, especially with some logic types today to do I2S extremely well.
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Go easy Oz, this bloke has a product coming up so will not be too keen on giving the game away.
I was going easy. 8)