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General HIFI => Other DACs => Topic started by: rhlauranna on September 05, 2012, 09:56:00 PM

Title: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 05, 2012, 09:56:00 PM
here it comes...
here it comes...
here it comes... no, not your 19th nervous breakdown, but magic, goose bumps, and satisfaction, deepest satisfaction, which makes not only my dreams comes true...

to make it short: I want to listen to music exactly like that !!! no more discussion necessary...

you want analogue ? perfect analogue ? then go digital !!!


well, let me start with some pictures...

this is the "apparatus" Doede built for himself, it shows not only a four deck 24 - 192 DAC but also his - especially for these purposes - constructed controlled power supply which delivers not only the 12 volt for the DAC itself but also the other needed voltages, i.e. 5 volt for the USB-Part and so on...

the splitting of the power from the USB and handling on the controlled power supply alone led to an incredible amelioration in sound...

to me this is an absolutely top notch ingenious world class master achievement, from bottom to the top, through and through, all expectations have been exceeded by far, and one can easily hear this, I would hardly have been able to articulate my wishes regarding these results in words before the beginning of the construction: this simply is genious and let's nothing more to be desired !!!! this is really a 500 horse power formula I machine... but, one has to be aware how to get them on the road...

(aaahh, by the way, I know that you are not that involved into measurements, but I am the biggest fan of squares, and the squares are absolutely perfect, they reach from lowest lows till highest highs, more than 96.000 Hz...)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 05, 2012, 09:57:40 PM
damn Reinhard! made me excited for nothing!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 05, 2012, 10:05:23 PM
I'm sorry, but at the moment I have big troubles with the size of the pictures, all way too big, and the amount of pictures per box...

so, please, be patient...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on September 05, 2012, 10:46:57 PM
we need photos of the inside  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 05, 2012, 11:56:56 PM
such a damn job to unnecessarily work on the pics for hours to make them fit in here, a job for a slave...

why can't I upload the pictures just from my camera ???

well, here are some more...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 06, 2012, 12:11:00 AM
oh my, maximum size allowed for me is 512 kb... I already downsized the pictures under 200 kb, but only two are uploaded...

work for sysyphus...

some more...

the picture on the bottom shows the most slim version of the new DAC, only one deck, i.e. two 1794 chips, one for the left and one for the right channel, so you have already two per channel...

and yes, Tuyen, the controlled power supply from Bernd, is working with this DAC except the 5 volt for USB, which Doede generated seperately on his controlled power supply in the box...

what we have presumed long time: we have to get rid at least of the power within USB !!!

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 06, 2012, 12:17:05 AM
yes, and this is the eight deck DAC, with 16 chips...

the "wonder" in precising the sound with multiplying chips is nearly the same as with the 16 Bit DAC, not totally extremely the same, but that significant that it is for us no question at all to mount onto that level, more power, more pressure, more punch, more... yes, more from all, just the right amount to come to real "life"...

and yes, we can understand now when some people say, well, high res is not good, sometimes even really bad, o.k., it is the same with CDs, there are good ones and there are bad ones, but when everything is right with 24 Bit, then magic appears, life, no doubt...

magic appears for example with Neil Young, Life at Massey Hall 24/192 (the CD alone gets my 100 points), Diana Krall and Cat Stevens - Tea for the Tillerman...

more to come if you like, now I have to drive to Klaus for another super session to get used to the new dimension...

aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh....

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 06, 2012, 01:41:15 AM
Reinhard, nice! many thanks for sharing.

I'm keen for this, if it is a marked improvement over the DDDAC1543 MK2.  That is assuming Doede brings the unit into production either as finished or kit form...

Enjoy listening at Klaus'!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 06, 2012, 02:31:04 AM
Reinhard, nice! many thanks for sharing.

I'm keen for this, if it is a marked improvement over the DDDAC1543 MK2.  That is assuming Doede brings the unit into production either as finished or kit form...

Enjoy listening at Klaus'!


well, from what I got to know from Doede he will put his units onto his homepage www.dddac.com so that every interested DIY might take advantage of this developement if he likes...

on the other hand we have not yet evalutated the exact differences or being better of the new DAC in comparison to the - no, not at all old - 16 Bit DAC, many more tests will show that...

what I can say at the moment, is that the new DAC has all the advantages in high res in sound that we are so happily used to from the 16 Bit DAC... and that was the thing that we primarily wanted...

on the other hand, I told you already, you are still far away from tickeling all the qualities out of your 16 bit DAC, I strongly would recommend you to concentrate on the combination with controlled power supply which is compatible to the 24 bit DAC...

that really should bring you quite dramatically the most at the moment... why ? because with your 16 bit DAC you have already 500 horse powers, and before building the second floor, bring them first onto the road just right and create with it the basement for 24 bit !!!!

by the way, I could not follow the fullfillment of your project regarding the multi channel Hiraga amps, what's up with it ? active multi channel class A brings you some 20-30% amelioration in sound, and what a sound !!!!



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 06, 2012, 08:45:09 AM
Hi Reinhard

I messages Doede about the design for power supply that supported 120 chips. He said he will get back to me, but hasn't. So no progress on that front. I am not technically knowledges enough to design or modify the sample psu design he has shown on his web page for 60 chip so that it supports 120 chips. Unless I just build 2 of them and just run half of the modules with one and other half with the other? I was hoping for a more elegant solution..

Re the hiragas le monstres, I've given up on them for now.  I've built a passive crossover so that I can use a single power amp (or separate the woofer with the horn channels and bi-amp if desired).  Now I have the freedom to listen and appreciate the sonic qualities of different amps (whether it be tube or solid state).  I am currently switching between a 20watt hiraga based classe a amp  and a pair of replica Western Electric 124 mono block amps.  Next is to also try a nice ultra low powered 46 SET tube amp (2 watt) to run the horn channels and either the hiraga 20w or accuphase 50watt to power the woofers in a bi-amp setup. 
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 21, 2012, 06:52:28 PM
so, finally for all DIY who might be interested to learn more about the new "wonder", here is the new Internet page of Doede, which just has become ready:

http://www.dddac.com

please, read for yourself and enjoy !!!

let me draw your attention to another very special "thing" which I personally like very much and that might find your interest as well: the complete and comfortable remote control for the new DDDAC 24 Bit 192 kHz:

http://www.dddac.com/otherprojects_ipad.html


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 21, 2012, 08:28:06 PM
Awesome thanks for the heads up, Reinhard.

Been waiting for this for a while now.

How does it sound compared to the dddac1543? How many modules have you managed to stack so far?

Thanks again,
Tuyen
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 22, 2012, 12:17:47 AM
Awesome thanks for the heads up, Reinhard.

Been waiting for this for a while now.

How does it sound compared to the dddac1543? How many modules have you managed to stack so far?

Thanks again,
Tuyen

well, to be honest, it is much much much to early to make and/or expect serious results regarding the comparison between the two DACs at the moment... my 120 DDDAC 1543 to my ears is as close to perfection for 16 bit as I have ever listened to... and the same is valid for the single chip DDDAC 1784 for 24 bit...

what you want to know is clear, that's exactly what I want to know as well, and as quickly as possible, but we will still have to be patient for the results for quite a while because

1. it really would be hardly meaningful to compare at this moment a completely and on the long run burnt in 120 chip 16 bit DAC against a single chip 24 bit running in 16 bit mode just finding together...

2. the different adjustment of input/output levels of the individual DACs (1,2 volt with the 24 bit and 1,6 volt with the 16 bit - which should be some 2 volts) still have to be built... Doede has just finished to build this for himself at his home, but till now we have not yet had the chance to test it exept for some single tracks...  we will have to wait till this is burnt in and then listen to much longer and much more intensively

3. except Doede we (Klaus, Bernd and me) have just started with one deck... we have already listened to Doede's four deck DAC, but not yet burnt in, and not yet harmonised, just to see if the multiplication of the chips lead to the same or similar effects as with the multiplying of the 16 bit chips, and yes, they do, but different, in any case that way, that there is no way back... the same here: much to early to report seriously...

but to give you an impression: there are indeed severe positive ameliorations in sound reproduction, and to my ears they all tend without exception in the right direction, and the best that I ever listened to is indeed Neil Young Live at Massey Hall, 24 bit 192 kHz... Massey Hall is in my room, and Neil singing 3 meters in front of me, and I can "see" the single strings of his guitar and the keys of his piano as narrow as they are in nature, and the best, his voice when speaking and singing is only some ten-fifteen cm in diametre, there is a dramatic gain in focus, which is simply incredible, as is with all the other instruments, standing side by side, no longer intermingling in the reproduction picture, and the high resolution hand clapping of the audience is simply frighteningly realistic... and we are really grateful not having at all any problems in getting it as "loud" as in reality... but this process is still not yet totally finished and of course will be closely observed...

all in all this is definitely without any doubt the right way to go for us, and once listened to there is no way back for us... I am just burning in that what I was able to get so far - please keep in mind that it all has to be built at the moment by Doede himself in parallel for Klaus, Bernd, himself and me - and what I have is the most basic version, one "single" board, as to be seen on the picture above, with the two Mundorf Caps, it happens to be exactly that one on the picture which some time ago still was Doede's deck till he completed his box that he built for himself for fullfilling his personal and specific needs...

what I can already tell without any overemphasizing after some 120 hours in which the "wonder" is burning in and finding itself together is: everything is more and better than I anticipated in my imaginations - the naturalness and reality in sound is very narrowly oszillating around the border of perfection, a level that I could not imagine being reachable at all and easily the supremely best that I ever listened to, and there is absolutely no doubt this will stay as is, and it will be utmost fun to experiment with all the planned ameliorations in the future, i.e. parallelising chips, i.e. more decks, separating of the 5 volt from the USB connection, and yes, even getting rid of the caps within the signal path with the new Sowters (see his homepage), which Doede has had being built according to his specifications... but I am not yet able to comment on these things seriously (although these things all sound "better" right from the start)...

and we are very glad that all these things seem to reach "perfection" just right in time as we will have our next big session at the beginning of december not only with Jean Hiraga but also with Shinichi Tanaka from Goto Unit in Japan together with two japanese pianists, and from what I heard they are just discussing if Seiya Goto himself (84 years) will be able to accompany them... that indeed would be a sensation !!!




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 22, 2012, 12:39:25 AM
Thanks Reinhard.  Things do seem promising anyway.

I'll keep my 120chip dddac1543 here.. still waiting for proper power supply that can support the current draw.    Might have to put it aside now that I want to try Doede's new design.  I have some Bud Purvine O'netics output transformers that would most probably be suitable for use on the this new dac too...

You'll be happy to know I'm in process of moving towards 50hz front loaded horns for my SG-38WN woofers.    Tested it a few nights ago and indeed the transient speed and scale is something special.  The drivers seem to be made for this.

Any mid-high SG-370 with matching S-600 horns lying around anywhere?  I foolishly sold mine a while ago to try something else..

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 22, 2012, 01:04:09 AM
regarding Bernd's superb controlled power supply I forgot to mention

1. it runs with both DACs, with DDDAC 16 bit and DDDAC 24 bit, so we need only one, we are lucky men, aren't we?

2. the "problem" with the corresponding power supply is that it is not Doede's development but Bernd's, but it was that good, that Doede immediately built one for himself, unfortunately Doede is not "authorised" by Bernd to tell about it, therefore he did not yet answer...

and unfortunately I am not a technician and not able to explain what parts are used and what is going on within the controlled power supply, but from the result it is simpy "magic" as well, bringing some incredible 30% of amelioration in sound (we would not have believed it, if we would not have tried it out personally) and it is unimaginably better than the thick car and lorry batteries that had been in use for years... an incredible discovery by accident...

yes, and your "moving towards 50hz front loaded horns" is the right way to go, that will bring you really fun not only for your bass but for your whole sound...

as should do your active multi-amping (even with the worst and cheapest amps on the planet)... go straight ahead, this is one of the most dramatic and possible ameliorations in sound at all...

...and that's fine, here you have learnt by yourself: "...SG-370 with matching S-600 horns... I foolishly sold mine a while ago to try something else.." absolutely right you are, Goto drivers are not to top, only by better Goto drivers... perhaps you might want to try to buy them back or ask Mr. Tanaka if he can help you out...

by the way, just the other day I talked to Klaus, and he was just 27 years of age (like you !) when he started with Gotos...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 22, 2012, 07:31:36 PM
Hopefully Doede publishes some recommended power supply solution for his newly designed DAC.   The pages for circuits diagram/power supply section has no content.    I do plan on purchasing a complete dac kit with wave usb module  from Doede's store.      So the whole DAC is run from 11V DC?

I'm currently not multi-amping.  I was ultimately not happy with the vintage Pioneer D-23 4-way electronic crossover I was using.   What sort of electronic crossover are you using?  Or do you have a passive line level crossover (PLLXO) especially designed for your setup?  

I'm curious how low does your bass horns play down to in room?  40hz -3db?   Do you have anything that takes care of the first octave (20-40hz)?  

Klaus has been at it for a very long time it seems. I can only imagine how great his system sounds.  It is a pity we can't communicate, to learn more from his experience.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 23, 2012, 12:18:23 AM
hi tuyen,

the best in any case is to contact Doede personally... I am sorry, I cannot help you with the power supply, believe me, I would, if I could...

regarding your bass horn, well, from what I see on your link to some SG38WN bass chassis this is not a straight 50 cycle horn, and to be honest, I have to admit I have no experiences with such space saving "castrated" horns...

what we cared for the last thirty years in horn construction was always, I repeat "always", according to the physical laws without compromises, and that was straight horns, exponential, tractrix, hyperbolic...
not curved, and not folded...

so, if you talk about a 50 cycle straight horn, this is some 4 m in length and some 2,20 m in diametre... for a SG146LD... if you have a SG38... on such a horn the length shortens that long till you have a beginning mouth of 38 cm in diameter, that is about 1 meter short, i.e. some 3 meters in total...

but, a 50 cycle horn does not mean that the frequency response is cut off at 50 cycles, no you enter a different way of reproduction, 50 cycle horn means, you are able to hear 50 cycle upwards to 20.000 cycles whereever you are in the room, even behind your speakers you hear natural music, it is like walking around the playing band...

and of course you will be able to "hear" deeper frequencies, but these depend on your room... physics are merciless, there is 330 meters per second, so if you want to "hear" 30 cycles, you have to devide 330 by 30, i.e. 11, so in eleven meter distance of the beginning of the driver you will hear a tone of 30 cycles, from an organ for example, if you listen to the sound closer than eleven meters your body will recognize the 30 cycles only as pressure on your body, as is when you are on a platform on a station and a train rolls in, the vibrations your body realizes are some 3 or 4 cycles...

if a 50 cycle horn would be too large for your room, then make it shorter, cut it to 60, 70, 80 or 90 cycle, exactly to that depth that is suitable for your room, but keep it straight and as round as possible... that gains you the most and the precisest...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 23, 2012, 07:56:44 AM
Not sure if i agree with you regarding only using a straight horn for bass, even if room can only fit (say a 80hz horn). If from your listening position, the systems frequency response if unable to reproduce enough energy between 20-80hz for example, the music will sound terrible and very uninvolving in my opinion.  The compression bass driver might support down to 20hz, but the horns loading profile (plus room size & placement) that dictate how low it will play down to in the room.   So if my room only fits a 50hz bass horn (in folded design) and from simple RTA freq response plot from measurements at listening position, how would you advise to reproduce the remaining 20-50hz in room response required?

Or would you rather a 80hz straight bass horn with system response rolling of even earlier? ( maybe say 70-80hz)?

Personally to me and my music tastes, I can't stand listening to music if it doesn't have atleast a strong flat 40hz in room response.  This is why I am taking advice from Jeffrey Jackson who has setup a few Goto horn systems before and implement a subwoofer or two to be able to reproduce the 20-60hz range that I know my future bass horns (does not matter if straight or folded design) is unable to do. Have done few measurements of my woofer in the said bass horns already.

A simple frequency response sweep from listening position can a rough idea on things.

Anyway, have sent doede an email regarding the power supply requirements. Will report back here what info I get!


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 23, 2012, 08:56:26 AM
well, you have all possibilties to try out for yourself, so go ahead and build, it is rather cheap with MDF... but most of all, listen for yourself...

except Klaus, we presumably all have to make compromises, because of size and space... you, and me as well... now, see my 50 cycle horn over at Stefano where the last part, the big part, where the mouth should open to 2,20 m is missing simply because of space here... well, with SG146LD on... normally one would think, hey, most of the horn is missing, so should be missing half of the sound... well, it is not...

just the other day I had a visitor here, it happened to be an Australien, who before visited Shinichi Tanaka in Japan and listened there to some highest end systems with highest end Goto drivers and I asked him about his impressions when playing an organ down to the very ground on my system, i.e. 20 cycles, at 3,00 meters distance from the mouth opening: do you miss something ? and he said: no, everything is there.... and indeed everything is there... no frequencies missing, the only thing: you don't realize them all as tones but as pressure, and you are right, if that pressure is missing, the sound becomes awful and lacking in substance...

listening position: well, with straight horns sitting in the focus really becomes neglectible, when in theatre you hardly ever sit in the total focus, you sit to the left, to the right, back or in front, but you always are able to hear what is happening on stage, or don't you ? same with straight horns... listening experiences change very advantageously...

enough energy: of course your driver receives the full power of your channel devider with all frequencies made for him, they don't get diminuished...

from what I can see on your pictures of your room an 80 or 90 cycle straight horn would do best, it is perhaps some 1,60 - 2 metres in depth, but please, don't listen to me, try it out, it's your ears, I can only recommend...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on September 24, 2012, 11:37:09 AM
Thanks Reinhard :)  Will report back on how I go with the bass horns project.

Circuit and pcb layout of DDDAC1794 NOS:
http://www.dddac.com/documents/dddac1794_nos_ver20.pdf (http://www.dddac.com/documents/dddac1794_nos_ver20.pdf)

zenelectro, being technically knowledged as you are, thoughts?

I be keen to wire up my jkeny hiface usb-i2s battery powered module onto the i2s inputs to compare it to the waveIO usb that Doede uses.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on October 28, 2012, 07:35:42 AM
well. it seems that we are all longing and struggeling for perfect reproduction in high resolution music...

time has come, that Doede has found some time to explain his thoughts, ideas, prototypes, power supplies... with his new DDDAC 1784-NOS 24-182... it is still not yet totally completed, but what he writes is already a very deep view into the "real" thing...

for all those of you DIYers who might be interested in following his developments, please feel free to go here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794.html

and on the right side you have different knobs to choose from what you might want to know...

there is as well a very very interesting explanation (theory) in parallelising chips and their benefits in amelioration of sound...

happy reading...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on October 28, 2012, 09:50:05 AM
Hi Reinhard,

My kit should be arriving next week.  Should be fun to put together and listen to many of the hi-res material I have been collecting.

You are currently using capacitor or transformer coupled output at the moment?    Which one do you prefer more, sound-wise?

I will have to use lab power supply to power the unit at first, but will slowly collect needed parts to build the proper power supply circuit which Doede says brings much improvement.

Excited to try something new!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: crazikid on October 28, 2012, 10:10:32 AM
Hi tuyen,
Have you noticed a difference using a lab power supply in your audio config
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on October 28, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Hi crazi,

the differences were never massive to my ears, but they were still there. a proper designed linear psu or battery did usually give an improvement.   i've yet to run my 60-120chip dddac1543 via proper linear psu, so I guess I still haven't even heard the best from it.   What's interesting though,  I think the sound is still nicer when running 120 chips with smps psu  then 24chips with linear psu or battery.    no doubt a 120-240chip unit powered by well designed linear psu like the guys over Germany are using would be on a much higher level again in terms of sq.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on October 28, 2012, 11:33:03 PM
Hi Reinhard,

My kit should be arriving next week.  Should be fun to put together and listen to many of the hi-res material I have been collecting.

You are currently using capacitor or transformer coupled output at the moment?    Which one do you prefer more, sound-wise?

I will have to use lab power supply to power the unit at first, but will slowly collect needed parts to build the proper power supply circuit which Doede says brings much improvement.

Excited to try something new!

Hi tuyen,

congratulations on your decision ! you will not regret... and yes, a proper controlled power supply will bring you the most, and that's the secret: right from the beginning... it is the same with analogue tape recordings: what you do not put in, you cannot get out...

well, it is not so as if we would not and have not experiment(ed) with analogue tape recordings, this is all extremely convincing (see Stefano's results over at his site), but at least us here have to face that we do not have a single master recording at home or of our own, and will never have... so we strongly have to care for all our favorite music which is - and will be - stored digital, and here within different formats... so, the research for us will concentrate further on DACs...

regarding your question: my situation is still the same since the last few weeks, and I am as content as I have never been before in my HiFi-life... my new single DDDAC 24 bit DAC is now burnt it (which indeed brought more amelioration than I initially expected: coherency, focus, naturalness... which really came totally to the point in combination with time alignment - so please do not forget about this)

meanwhile I have switched to Windows 7 and implemented the corresponding programs and drivers, and -although completely within the digital area - this still brought the reproduced sound (I wonder how) further in the intended direction bringing big satisfying smiles on one's face...

all the other things that are actually indicated on Doede's site are still very very new and only basically implemented in our systems, and we still have to try them all out in detail within our different systems, and that will happen during the next weeks and months, but at least at the moment everything is focused on the preparation to get it "just exactly perfect" for the "Japanese Session" at the beginning of December...

till then we will have the possibility to try out Doede's private DDDAC with the new Sowters... one has to keep in mind that the (normal) DDDAC 1543 is running with 1,6 Volt and the new DDDAC only with 1,2 Volt, so there an adjustment to 2 Volt is needed which is not yet done but will be, for both DACs...

so, we are in the same boat with experimenting, from my experiences I lastly always vote for "nothing in the signal path"...

let me wish you happy building, and please tell me about your results...

P.S. I have read that Angelo meanwhile has switched to Jean Hiraga amps and is extremely satisfied... so, why don't you follow ? If I have it right in mind then you had already started and bought all the necessary parts quite some time ago, didn't you?

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on October 29, 2012, 03:36:51 PM
Hi Reinhard,

Thanks for your support. Will let you know how it goes.

You only just moved to Windows 7?!    Windows 8 was released over the weekend and users have already made mention that they are finding improvements in sound! :)

Another thing that brings sq improvement is using solid state harddrives for your computer/laptop.  That is something I can recommend after switching to SSD on my netbook which I have been using as transport.        I will do the same with my mac mini  workstation.

As you already know, power supply is critical in audio equipment. Should look into finding ways to improve that aspect of your computer. Are you using a desktop workstation or laptop?   Standard desktop workstation power supplies are not optimal for audio.      Something that might be worth looking into. https://coreaudiotechnology.com/products/power-supplies/nanoatx (https://coreaudiotechnology.com/products/power-supplies/nanoatx) Not cheap though...

A friend recently added a Mojo Audio PS into his mac mini and reports audible worthwhile improvements. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOJO-AUDIO-ULTRALOW-NOISE-MAC-MINI-POWER-SUPPLY-WORKS-w-ANY-AGE-MAC-MINI-/320901187633 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOJO-AUDIO-ULTRALOW-NOISE-MAC-MINI-POWER-SUPPLY-WORKS-w-ANY-AGE-MAC-MINI-/320901187633)

I am using the hiraga-based 20watt classe a amp to power the sg-38wn woofers, at the moment.   I've got a hiraga le monstre 8watt class a amp that I nearly finished wiring up.   Will try it on the horn channels (system is bi-amped) later on :)

Do you run a custom active electronic crossover unit? or do you have passive line level circuits built into each separate amp?

The "Japanese" session will be great!  Very interested on how it turns out and some photos please!    I hope to go to Japan next year, so will organise to visit Sanichi and Co...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozcal on October 29, 2012, 06:40:42 PM
Looking forward to hearing your new dac T, price is not to bad either :D
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on October 31, 2012, 11:00:10 AM
No probs G.  Happy to also bring it over when I get it cased up and running off a proper power supply :)

Plan to case up the 120chip DDDAC as well (will be a darn big case), so that'll be available too!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on October 31, 2012, 10:15:56 PM
tuyen,

this is really good news...

nice to read about your progresses with your Hiraga amps... switching to class A, active driving frequency deviders and a controlled power supply with your DACs are the biggest steps you can make in amelioration of sound... they are that dramatic that you will no longer recognize your system nor music... you will have to relisten all over again...

by the way, all the positive effects with the controlled power supply with your new DAC are effective for every single part within your amplification chain... as the ameliorations are that dramatic Klaus and Bernd have just begun to built some twenty power amps, i.e. five way and one mono bloc for each driver...

and yes, the computer... the most unreliable part in all our HiFi-chains... this indeed will be the next part which we will concentrate on... we will build a complete power supply with all these different voltages and that stable as we have positively experienced within the other amplification parts in our chain that are already running with it...

but there is one more specific thing: as Doede has proven within his new DAC (severely listenable for us all) that getting rid of USB and corresponding cable transport and connection parts leads to a rather incredible amelioration in sound, we will try to take the digital signal directly from the motherboard and handle it to our needs... that really would be great fun if more DIYers could/would concentrate on this and discuss the results here...

SSD... yes, you are right, amelioration in sound as well, and already standard for all of us here...

Windows 8... well, that's very interesting to hear and I just informed Doede about that what you have heard... it would make sense if you could specify with what exactly (programs, drivers, adjustments...) the amelioration has been reached exactly...

regarding your question: yes, my frequency deviders are custom made class A with separated and controlled power supply...

well, the last part in my chain, the new DDDAC 24 Bit - although it is the first to begin with - now delivers absolutely perfect squares as well, and that is one of the best kept secrets in HIFi-reproduction for me, which hardly anybody really seems to care for down to the bone, not only to generate these squares, but also to transport them through the complete amplification chain and then to reproduce them best way possible with best possible (affordable) drivers... but to reach that, you not only will have to listen but to measure precisely...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 01, 2012, 01:55:07 PM
Hi Reinhard,

Just installed Windows 8 Professional last night, so will let you know how I find it running foobar2000.

http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-what-is-a-studio-master.aspx (http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-what-is-a-studio-master.aspx)
http://www.linnrecords.com/catalogue.aspx?format=studio (http://www.linnrecords.com/catalogue.aspx?format=studio)

Quite a lot of 'studio master' releases under Linn Records available to download. I'm assuming they are all 24/192 format which is great. Perfect test for the new DAC.     Have you tried a few of them and able to confirm the quality?

Edit: Realized I already have a few studio master downloads from Linn in my music server, so will remember to check them.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 01, 2012, 11:52:13 PM
yes, that's really very interesting, the "influence" of the new Windows 8 onto sound solely within the digital area of 0-s and 1-s... who would have thought some years ago that a PC system program would have an influence onto our sound reproduction at all ? but it does, and quite heavily... the only explanation that I have is that the back ground mathematical algorithms are still not yet just exactly perfect... please keep me informed about your results, we might get that prepared for our "japanese" session...

and thanks for the link for Linn... yes, we have some of them... and we use especially one :

Linn Records - The Super Audio Surround Collection Volume 5 Sampler (2011) 24-192 [FLAC24]
Linn Records - The Super Audio Surround Collection Volume 5 Sampler (2011) 24-96 [FLAC24]
Linn Records - The Super Audio Surround Collection Volume 5 Sampler (2011) 16-44 [FLAC16]

this way we are able to have some sort of "reference" to compare with, i.e. the same highest end recorded masters from which all different lower resolution versions are derived... and the differences simply show quite majestically...

but, one has to read carefully, not all of these recordings are recorded 24-192, some are lower, for example 24-44 or 24-96, and all the lower ones have been upsampled (by Linn) to 24-192 and then published

I have compared several "low" 24 bit original recordings against their upsampled versions (all from Linn)... well, to be honest, I am not able to hear a difference between a 24-44 or an 24-96 to an upsampled 24-192, but my stomach tells me that I would like to prefer no altering in the source whatsoever...

as Louis XIV once said: "Gouverner moins, c'est gouverner mieux"... something like less governing is better governing... and that has come out true for HiFi as well...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 12, 2012, 12:42:00 PM
Hi Reinhard,

Windows 8 is good. Much more resource friendly.  Processes seem to run more fluidly and quicker. It loads up much faster too...

Sound wise, I'm not sure if it is an improvement, because too many things have changed in my system recently.   I can say it hasn't got any worse though.    I would say it is worthwhile upgrade to at least try..

Have tried a couple different output options now.

Bud Purvine 600:600 DAC buffer  transformers:
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2wrow9l.jpg)

Dynamicap 2.0uF + 0.022uF hovland musicap:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/10nuq85.jpg)

Great sounding high res NOS DAC.   Look forward to ordering another 3 DAC boards + power supply kit from Doede.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 13, 2012, 12:54:29 AM
Tuyen would you like to borrow a duelund alexandraia 2.0uf and a vsf 2.2uf ???
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 13, 2012, 01:52:43 AM
Tuyen would you like to borrow a duelund alexandraia 2.0uf and a vsf 2.2uf ???

tuyen, congratulations on your results, now you should finish your active multi-amping as quick as possible (cheapest way) to get the most out of it...

and yes, kajak12, this is indeed an absolutely superb idea of which I very very much would like to hear about the results in words and pix !!!!

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on November 13, 2012, 03:32:59 AM
Naaaa, think the transformers will beat any cap in that position!
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 13, 2012, 02:15:40 PM
The dac buffer transformer is pretty good. Sound is quite dynamic with possibly extra clarity over the cap output?  Cannot confirm...  brain/ears usually too tired to listen ultra critically nowadays..

Good thing is with the new preamp having a balanced input, I may be able to skip having a cap or transformer and run direct from DAC to input!   
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on November 13, 2012, 04:43:32 PM
Too tired to listen critically?
Fair enough.  Leave it in for a week and see which one you prefer.  Quick changes unless done by some one else whilst you are listening are always difficult to call for small changes.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 13, 2012, 08:57:08 PM
Naaaa, think the transformers will beat any cap in that position!
V
Hmmm maybe i should sell my duelunds and get transformers for the kdac????
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on November 13, 2012, 11:40:49 PM
Always worth trying and you could increase the output level to achieve better drive and lower output impedence.
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 22, 2012, 10:21:53 PM
mmmmhhhhhh, wonderful, finally Doede has visualised the first test results... if you are interested you might have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

did anybody see at all results like this within a DAC whatsoever ?

well, to be able to "listen" to this, one might be able to transport these square through one's amplification chain without alteration, and then it's only a question of your speakers (and room)...

happy reading !



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 22, 2012, 11:40:52 PM
http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

did anybody see at all results like this within a DAC whatsoever ?
One day tuyen will bring his dac over it would be interesting if its got potential i might buy one to play with
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on November 23, 2012, 02:00:09 AM
Naaaa, think the transformers will beat any cap in that position!
V
Hmmm maybe i should sell my duelunds and get transformers for the kdac????

Unfortunately wont work very well.
OP transformer needs to be driven from very low impedance to sound best.

For high impedance drive (like KD) the only option is a high impedance transformer
which generally aren't as good as low impedance type.

There are exceptions such as a high impedance stepdown, but then you will need
more OP level from KD.

Oh BTW, you will still need a coupling cap to take DC off transformer primary.

No free lunch.


Z





 
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 23, 2012, 08:25:02 AM
Well the issue here, is that from my reading,  balanced designs inherently reduce even order distortions.

Odd order distortions (the nasties) are still there.

Some suggest that the removal of even order distortions results in clinical sound that is artificial .

I'd like to know more about this topic, because I admit that it's an area that I don't understand well.

It's certainly peaked my interest.    A few years ago Lampizator added a tube output stage to a dual mono pcm1794 based cd player, and was in raptures about his result.  Kajak, I think that is something that needs to be attempted.   
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 23, 2012, 09:19:22 AM
mmmmhhhhhh, wonderful, finally Doede has visualised the first test results... if you are interested you might have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

did anybody see at all results like this within a DAC whatsoever ?

well, to be able to "listen" to this, one might be able to transport these square through one's amplification chain without alteration, and then it's only a question of your speakers (and room)...

happy reading !

Hi Reinhard

I did notice that yesterday and it was refreshing to see the results.

Spoke to Doede who says the ps kits will be ready by end of year which I'm a bit excited about. Can stop the lab ps I am using to power the main board. I am also currently using the USB cable power for the 5v. The ps kit should help with that too.

Are you still on the single dac board?  I am thinking of going another 3 boards when I order the ps, if funds permit.

In terms of SQ, so far so good.  Working great connected to my valve preamp.

Have tried a few high res recordings from ACT label.  Has the extra level of fidelity that is great to experience.

Are you guys ready for the Japanese session?  Is Jean and Stefano joining you?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 23, 2012, 10:15:21 AM
Hi Tuyen,

well, "the results" were so listenable from the first second on, reaching magic on my "radio"...

to answer your questions:

although it is still a fortnight to go we will have this weekend some sort of a final check... with Doede...

he will bring his own DAC with the Sowters with him and this will stay till the Japanese session is over... Doede just told me that after his burning in the sound still has become better (as was with my single deck for some 200 hours, a fact which I wouldn't have believed if somebody would have told me so before...)

in the meantime he has finished more decks for me, nr two, three and four, and they will be implemented on coming sunday... so they will get burnt in just in time...

regarding your question with Win 7 and 8, meanwhile I have jumped to a totally new machine and windows 8, so everything seems to get adjusted to that level that is possible at the moment...

and yes, of course, Jean and Stefano will join us, and André Klein from France with his WE15E and so on...will be with us as well, the whole thing has become some sort of brain trust like building and experimenting on a space shuttle... it seems that there is no longer one single person able to do "everything" "just exactly perfect" alone within such a dimension (and I have to admit I like it), and the gains in sound quality are still simply breathtakingly awesome... (a quality level of which even we couldn't have been dreaming of some two or three years ago)

furthermore we will have in addition for the first time as our guest Mr. Thomas Schick from Berlin, the well known tonearm constructer and recording expert, if you are interested, feel free to go here:

http://www.thomas-schick.com/

yes, this is really a very interesting and exciting fortnight to come...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 23, 2012, 05:13:01 PM
Awesome Reinhard. Please keep us in the loop if possible!

I'm guessing most of them are currently attending the annual European Triode Festival in Berlin, at the moment. That would be lots of fun too..

Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 24, 2012, 05:01:38 AM
my, oh my, oh my...

so for all, who might be interested in "perfect" bass, have a look here, how it should be generated before being amplified:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

and please go here to the 20 Hz picture... this is simply spectacular and that's what it is all about, if you don't have this in the origin you will never ever get a bass amplified in reproduction that sounds really "natural"...

you should hear this... I am rather convinced that it doesn't get any better than this...

yes, and here tested in another surrounding and in direct comparison with other (commercial) DACs...

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_sound2.html

have fun...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on November 24, 2012, 12:15:12 PM
my, oh my, oh my...

so for all, who might be interested in "perfect" bass, have a look here, how it should be generated before being amplified:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

and please go here to the 20 Hz picture... this is simply spectacular and that's what it is all about, if you don't have this in the origin you will never ever get a bass amplified in reproduction that sounds really "natural"...

you should hear this... I am rather convinced that it doesn't get any better than this...

yes, and here tested in another surrounding and in direct comparison with other (commercial) DACs...

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_sound2.html

have fun...


I very much like zero oversampling 1794 - and this implementation looks pretty good, but the measurements are a joke.

*any* DAC will do these measurements at 20Hz If they don't, the DAC is broken.

This is purely what you would expect from a zero oversampling 24 bit / 192k DAC. End of story.

There are some things they can do - such as perfect square waves.
There are some things they will fail, such as 2 tone IMD 18kHz / 19kHz. It will be obliterated with imaging artifacts.
As they say - zero oversampling is what it is.

What you really want to see - is out of band noise > 20KHz.
Since it is a zero oversampling DAC and we want to run minimal analog (hopefully no) filtering, the out of
band noise is very important.

This is where delta sigma (aka PCM1794 / ESS Sabre etc) DAC's have dirty secret.

Unfortunately these FFT plots that have virtually zero resolution to start with to try and characterize the performance of a
super high performance DAC such as 1794.

See below for an FFT plot of 1794 with resistive OP I-V. The scale goes down to -150dB.
As you can see, it works very well and the DAC stays linear.

As stated I think wideband (100kHz) plots with good resolution might be more meaningful.


cheers

Z
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: omodo on November 24, 2012, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: tuyen link=topic=842.msg12339#msg12339 date=
Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@

Me too.. 15+ months and counting :-X
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on November 24, 2012, 05:35:32 PM
Good job your here Terry or else the marketing boys would brow beat us with all those whiter than white claims :o

Quote
I very much like zero oversampling 1794 - and this implementation looks pretty good, but the measurements are a joke.
*any* DAC will do these measurements at 20Hz If they don't, the DAC is broken.
What you really want to see - is out of band noise > 20KHz. The out of band noise is very important.
As stated I think wideband (100kHz) plots with good resolution might be more meaningful.  

Thank you for your enlightenment. ;) ;) ;)
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 24, 2012, 05:46:20 PM
 I thought any measurements, no matter how accurate they might be, are a joke around here ? :)

TRUST YOURS EARS!  (AND ENJOY YOUR JOURNEY)  :P  :P
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 24, 2012, 10:42:13 PM
I thought any measurements, no matter how accurate they might be, are a joke around here ? :)

TRUST YOURS EARS!  (AND ENJOY YOUR JOURNEY)  :P  :P
measurements are great for people that understand them no good for me just press PLAY
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on November 24, 2012, 11:19:49 PM
I thought any measurements, no matter how accurate they might be, are a joke around here ? :)

TRUST YOURS EARS!  (AND ENJOY YOUR JOURNEY)  :P  :P

It's a tricky business - try to find a measurement that will tell you what the DAC will sound like.
I'm the first to admit they mostly don't correlate.

However, there are also so many BS measurements made up by people to substantiate their design.

I'm looking forward to great PC replay, one reason is that it will be possible to try a lot of
the different filters on the PC and see how much difference they do make.

T
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 24, 2012, 11:55:59 PM
Well, from what I read there seems to be some severe sort of interest and potential and really deep knowledge and know-how around here which extremely surpasses mine (but I still have my ears - as many others), and you make me not only curious with your hints but also very pleased...

So, what do you think ? Would it be possible to concentrate and focus all your knowledge onto further developments, which all those who follow digital reproduction will need the one or the other way ? you really could show what you have on the pan but to argue a little bit here and comment a little bit there! I know you understand me right in the positive way...

During my hifi-life I came across two sorts of (interested) fans: the ones "barking like dogs" about everything (right or not, but always rather interesting) but always resting without any further practical results (I call them "the dreamers" - I can dream of everything, but what do I have in the end when I awake ? nothing ! absolutely nothing !!)

...and the other ones who more or less regularly came around the corner with concrete "results" whatsoever. With these there was always something on the table to be implemented, to be tested, to be listened to, to be discussed, to be judged... with all participants and interested... ooohhhh, what fun !!!! that was and still is the way we try to slowly but steadily move to develop things further...

and as I told already: the latest actual developments have reached such a high level of knowledge in every single area of our beloved HiFi that those who are able to practically contribute (the right way) get less and less... but that should not be... I read of so many superb practical results and ideas and knowledge here on the platform, that is simply awesome for me, so why not bundle and focus these on further ideas?

As I also told already at least a year ago this new DAC is "only" one step further in the line of developments which we want to do. And as we were not content with the results which one can buy even for a huge amount of money and running in big studios (no, I do not name them), we felt some sort of "urged" and got "obsessed" to do it ourselves, with - at least to our ears - "perfect" results (so far I have used the word "perfect" only two or three times in HiFi)...

well, fact is, that we (presumably all) still have not yet reached totally our aim. Alone from technical point of view there is at least one more (big) step to go, i.e. the development and optimizing of the handling of digital within the area of PC/MAC. And here are at least two things to generate from scratch:

1. the controlled (and of course noiseless, i.e. fanless) power supply with absolutely stable corresponding voltages and

2. getting rid of all USB or whatsoever computer-based norms and standards (which suit only their purposes and n o t  our AUDIO !)

some time ago some of you have already tried to contribute to this theme. And I have esteemed this very much, but at that time it simply was a little bit too early to follow. But now, time has come. So I very much would like to get you "pregnant" to further develop this theme. Any ideas and/or propositions ? Would be really great !!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 25, 2012, 01:44:29 PM
if not usb, what will you use,  spdif?

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 26, 2012, 09:13:51 PM
This is where delta sigma (aka PCM1794 / ESS Sabre etc) DAC's have dirty secret.
just 1 slight correction,  the PCM1794 is a dual format chip,  it has different inputs for PCM and DeltaSigma.

The dirty secret you speak of, is the delta sigma noise inherent with 1bit data.

I don't think this dddac is utilizing the DeltaSigma capability,  I believe they are using PCM only ?

Which isn't a bad thing, it means if we feed it a clean 24bit music file it shouldnt actually need any further filtering,  and in NOS mode the dac itself won't mess with it any further, just simply convert it.  I like the idea of that.

There is a fork in the road, and there is a choice to make.  

Do we pursue a DSD Dac, do it better than the other limited offerings available?  With this option, filtering is needed to clean up the dirty secret.

Or ,,,,,, do we pursue a 24bit or 32bit PCM hi-res solution?  With this option NOS mode is the way to go, I do agree with the way the DDD chaps have chosen to do it.

I think trying to do both formats, may not be ideal for either??

In either case, DSD or PCM, Reinhard is right,  half the puzzle is sorting out the "feed" of the data.

I was at Stevens a week ago.  Doug bought around his laptop, configured for music playback with Jplay,  out to Offramp,  into Killerdac.    It just didn't have the liquidity and clarity of the Wadia spinner into Killerdac.   Zen, I'm hoping your solution will get us there, as we're all sick of burning.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 27, 2012, 01:31:13 AM
yeah oz, i think its doing pcm in.    more details here if zen can help interpret..  http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_circuit.html (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_circuit.html)

i like the dddac because it has a 'clean' and 'strong'  passive output signal.   my valve preamp  acts as a good refined 'valve output stage'  and volume controller.

i will be curious to see what zen comes up with for a high res dac/usb interface solution.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 27, 2012, 06:55:16 AM
That's actually very good information on the circuit design.  Well done to Doede for documenting it well.

If I'm reading it correctly,  the negative/positive balanced Outputs are combined to form the single unbalanced output.

Q I have is,  why not just leave the output as balanced?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: dddac on November 27, 2012, 07:58:02 AM
actually it does both... the capacitor output uses only one side of the dac, pos or neg... but both are available at the output. use two caps and you have a balanced output. or use both balanced outputs into a transformer and go single ended out, but utilizing both signals. by the way, the measurement section show clearly the balanced effect of d2 reduction
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on November 27, 2012, 10:20:15 AM
This is where delta sigma (aka PCM1794 / ESS Sabre etc) DAC's have dirty secret.
just 1 slight correction,  the PCM1794 is a dual format chip,  it has different inputs for PCM and DeltaSigma.

The dirty secret you speak of, is the delta sigma noise inherent with 1bit data.

I don't think this dddac is utilizing the DeltaSigma capability,  I believe they are using PCM only ?


Oz,

No it is a sigma delta DAC architecture.  It -has- to use sigma delta capability.

Lets go back to the start.

- 1 bit DACs:
This is equivalent of 1 resistor being switched from gnd to vcc (+3.3V).
The OP signal 'energy' is like a light dimmer, modulated time wise to have the appropriate signal level, then filtered.

- True multibit DAC (R2R):
R2R ladder network of resistors that allow (theoretically) 2^24 discrete OP current levels. There is no 'on time'
modulation.

- Multi bit sigma delta (Sabre and 1794 etc):
For simplicities sake, lets say 5 bit unity weighted. That would be 32 individual resistors of the same value
switched between gnd and vcc. The individual step level is 1/32 x true 1 bit, but they are still time modulated
to make the effective 'bits in between. They also use other tricks like DEM (dynamic element matching) to
randomly select those 32 resistors, turning any resistor mismatch / errors into noise. There's a lot more
to it but that's a very basic conceptual overview.

I believe Sabre has the highest number of discrete OP levels for a SD DAC, with something like 256 unity
weighted bits in 'stereo mode'.

So in the 1794's case, even when run in non oversampling mode without a digital filter there are
only so many OP bits that are switched on and off at very high speed to make up the true 24 bit
OP.

In fact, disabling the digital filter may well actually spread the HF, normally out of band noise closer
to the audio band. I'm not totally clear on this - hence my question WRT showing the extended
frequency plots - especially with 44.1 RB CD

Quote

Which isn't a bad thing, it means if we feed it a clean 24bit music file it shouldnt actually need any further filtering,  and in NOS mode the dac itself won't mess with it any further, just simply convert it.  I like the idea of that.


Yes - that would be nice but it doesn't happen. Any SD DAC needs to do 'time splicing' to get the effective bit resolution,
there's no free lunch. 

It's one of the reasons I was waiting for the next generation R2R DAC's - which got dumped. There's a lot to be said for
just a very good R2R DAC.

Quote

There is a fork in the road, and there is a choice to make.  

Do we pursue a DSD Dac, do it better than the other limited offerings available?  With this option, filtering is needed to clean up the dirty secret.

Or ,,,,,, do we pursue a 24bit or 32bit PCM hi-res solution?  With this option NOS mode is the way to go, I do agree with the way the DDD chaps have chosen to do it.

I think trying to do both formats, may not be ideal for either??


Trying to do both formats -right- certainly makes things more complex, no doubt.
The clocking and interface requirements are quite different.

Quote

In either case, DSD or PCM, Reinhard is right,  half the puzzle is sorting out the "feed" of the data.


That's no problem. I don't want to give too much away but the 'feed' is only part of the issue.
The end game is a) Complete isolation from source (PC) and b) absolute lowest jitter at the DAC.
DDD has made a very good effort but it is still some distance from absolute cutting edge and ticking all the
boxes.

Quote

I was at Stevens a week ago.  Doug bought around his laptop, configured for music playback with Jplay,  out to Offramp,  into Killerdac.    It just didn't have the liquidity and clarity of the Wadia spinner into Killerdac.   Zen, I'm hoping your solution will get us there, as we're all sick of burning.


Yeah, same, I'm mostly using PC sound card OP (emu1212) these days purely for flexibility - even though the quality is average.

OK - there's work to do and these posts don't get it done any quicker :)

cheers




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on November 27, 2012, 10:42:27 AM
That's actually very good information on the circuit design.  Well done to Doede for documenting it well.

If I'm reading it correctly,  the negative/positive balanced Outputs are combined to form the single unbalanced output.

Q I have is,  why not just leave the output as balanced?

Oz, (briefly)

I'll refer to PCM1794 in general and leave DDD to comment on that specific implementation, this seems most appropriate.

1794 shows very low distortion in each DAC OP phase, with increasing H2 (2nd harmonic) as the voltage swing increases.
With 1794 running into a virtual ground, there's not much in it. So as you allow more voltage swing at the DAC OP, you
get some more H2 creeping in, which will be largely cancelled when using both phases.

From tests I've seen elsewhere, you need about 100R per phase (stereo) to get any significant H2 happening and we
are still talking really low amounts. In fact running mono and into a virtual ground, the distortion artifacts look like
being close to any measuring equipment currently available.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 27, 2012, 12:44:51 PM
I've chatted a few times with Benjamin Zwickel of Mojo audio who sells modified mac mini based music servers and an R2R DAC based around the AD1865 chip.

http://www.mojo-audio.com/d-a-converters/

Here are some of what Ben had to say. Ben seems like a very nice fellow.

Hi Andy,
 
Well it seems we have similar paths.
 
Prior to starting Mojo Audio I was doing non-oversampling conversions and upgrades to "heavyweight" TDA 1541 DACs with CDM and BU1 transports. I could take a $400 used CD player from eBay and put $200 in parts into it and have something that would blow away anything I'd heard in a modern audio salon showroom. I was selling these upgraded vintage decks all over the world.
 
Name the "whose who" vintage deck: Revox, Philips, Marantz, Sony, etc and I've likely either upgraded it, owned it, or both.
 
So when I tell you our media sever will give you literally DOUBLE the digital resolution of your transport you know I'm speaking from experience. I also believe you will appreciate where this higher resolution is experienced - in better time, tune, tone, texture, musical flow, and emotional content.
 
You won't believe you are listening to the same system.

Hi Andy,
 
I can't say that you're too far off with everything you wrote.
 
Personally I find most digital reproduction, especially the modern HiRes stuff, to sound like what a computer thinks music should sound like as opposed to music.
 
The more "advanced" they get the clearer, cleaner, more dynamic, more extended, and more transparent they sound but the less emotional content and musical flow they actually have.
 
I'll let you in on a little secret: sampling or playing back anything over 20-bit is theoretically impossible due to the noise inherent in any system.
 
The ONLY reason they are using 24 and 32 bits is that the more "data" they throw at the cheap single chip "closest approximation" single bit modern DACs they are using the better their algorithms can give the illusion of error correcting in real time.
 
The fact is that no algorithm can tell the difference between "errors" and "emotional content" so what they do is "homogenize" the music making it a clean, dynamic, and extended computer's interpretation of music as opposed to reproducing the actual music in the recording.
 
I consistently blow minds at audio shows playing any old ordinary 16-bit recordings through my digital front end where my competitors are playing HiRes and customer after customer tells me how much more "musical" and "emotional" and "analog like" my system sounds.
 
Don't even get me started on how noisy and crappy sounding most power supplies are.
 
The only way I've found for digital reproduction to sound musical is to use non-error correcting, non-oversampling, non-upsampling ordinary 16-bit digital files played back on a classic R/2R DAC.
 
Considering how many companies are still manufacturing modern non-oversampling R/2R DACs using vintage DAC chips I must not be alone in this belief.
 
In order to get a whole other layer of error-correction and noise out of the way our media servers provide a near bit perfect digital source.
 
I always tell my customers: "if it doesn't come from the source, it can't come out of the speakers."
 
That being said, a proper media server is the most important part in a "musical" sounding digital audio system.
 
If the bits are not stored and transferred correctly there is no way that any component farther down the signal path can correct the damage done at the digital source.
 
As for interfaces like touch screens and iPads, you can use ANYTHING that is either Mac or PC compatible. I have a small touch screen that I used at shows like RMAF that works quite nicely but the best sound would be from a "headless" or "monitorless" system where it is controlled by an outside device like an iPad, smart phone, or other computer.
 
Once you hear our media sever you will likely want to hear our NOS R/2R AD1865 DAC.
 
Let me know if you have any questions.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 27, 2012, 12:49:45 PM
It would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.

I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 27, 2012, 02:11:10 PM
Hi Andy,

If you are intersted in a AD1865NOSK chip DAC, I can get a one off Core Audio Tech Kuma NOS DAC  for $1200 or nearest offer.

Uses Oscon SEPC and Mundorf Electrolytics along with V-Cap TFTF output coupling caps. The V-caps alone are worth more than the sale price of the DAC.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/376920_417180775006589_1882230435_n.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 27, 2012, 09:36:23 PM
So in the 1794's case, even when run in non oversampling mode without a digital filter there are
only so many OP bits that are switched on and off at very high speed to make up the true 24 bit
OP.
Well, for some reason I thought the 1794 was an R2R, and was doing an internal conversion from dsd to PCM, before the Dac step (when handling dsd input).  

My mistake.  

I don't think it's practical to bypass the filtering on sigma delta dacs,  but I don't really know.  It just doesn't seem right.


Quote
It's one of the reasons I was waiting for the next generation R2R DAC's - which got dumped. There's a lot to be said for
just a very good R2R DAC.
  I guess the R2R king is the 1704 ?

Not that I'm suggesting that is the path to take.  But I do like the idea of R2R in NOS mode.

I remain open minded to all the options.   It's complex.....

Quote
That's no problem. I don't want to give too much away but the 'feed' is only part of the issue.
The end game is a) Complete isolation from source (PC) and b) absolute lowest jitter at the DAC.
DDD has made a very good effort but it is still some distance from absolute cutting edge and ticking all the
boxes.
I consider A/B to be all part of the feed.   Ie: the reading of the data, and transporting it to the Dac chip,  is all part of it.

All interesting discussions.    And no Reinhard, we're not barking dogs.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 27, 2012, 09:39:58 PM
It would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.

I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.


Springcreek what usb to spdif does he recommend?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 27, 2012, 09:42:25 PM
It would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.

I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.


Ipad :o :o crap i dont have one i think my cd94/zenclock is safe for time being unless macmini can do wonders but $$$ investment is needed for a lesson
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 27, 2012, 09:47:54 PM
Thanks for the kind offer Tuyen  ;D

I am intrigued about these products and Doede's dacs and I'd love to hear them. I really hope this technology can deliver The musical goods and integrate into our lives, sure would make my wife happy.

I may well get a server next year like Ben makes and compare to a tricked out CD94. We may well learn something from it. If it's not as good at least my wife will like it and that can only be a good thing  ;) might have to get two inputs on my dac.

I'd rather not use a clunky transport but will if it gives me what I want from the music. I continue to follow this thread and your system with great interest. Hopefully I can get to WA to here it and Mario's one day. Looks like your enjoying the journey

Cheers, Andy
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 27, 2012, 09:56:59 PM
It would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.

I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.


Springcreek what usb to spdif does he recommend?
Hey Mario

Not sure mate, he just said there were some good options available.

If I get one I'll send it to you for a listen. 8)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 27, 2012, 10:01:52 PM
I had a quick look at the Core Audio site and it looks like they use digital amps with field coil lowthers  :o

I would have thought that would be an awful combo. Love the look of those FC lowthers, would go well is one of Martin's front horns  ;D

Hey T hopw are the bass horns coming along? Martin sent me the plans, really got me thinking...I looove horn bass, seems like other bass arrangements blunt the transient...not enough whack!

Too much gear to try...so few $$$  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 27, 2012, 10:07:36 PM
I had a quick look at the Core Audio site and it looks like they use digital amps with field coil lowthers  :o

I would have thought that would be an awful combo. Love the look of those FC lowthers, would go well is one of Martin's front horns  ;D

Hey T hopw are the bass horns coming along? Martin sent me the plans, really got me thinking...I looove horn bass, seems like other bass arrangements blunt the transient...not enough whack!

Too much gear to try...so few $$$  :)
Digital amps :o :o :o :o  timbre,texture,tone where ????  bloody hell no idea
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 27, 2012, 10:08:28 PM
Andy, what happened with the BLH boxes?  Have you tried them yet?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 27, 2012, 10:09:31 PM
It would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.

I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.


Springcreek what usb to spdif does he recommend?
Hey Mario

Not sure mate, he just said there were some good options available.

If I get one I'll send it to you for a listen. 8)
send it to steve its closer  ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 27, 2012, 10:20:41 PM
Andy, what happened with the BLH boxes?  Have you tried them yet?
Hey Oz
No Paul has them, I took one look and knew they weren't coming to my place. My wife would flip if I brought in even more big ugly piles of chipboard  :o

Would love to try BLH boxes though...might try building a set that look a little nicer. My speakers are ugly enough now...though I love them...they make me happy  ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 27, 2012, 10:36:52 PM
I did warn you they weren't pretty.   
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 27, 2012, 10:40:20 PM
Ha yep I was warned  ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 28, 2012, 01:06:28 AM
Hi Andy,

Most welcome if you ever stop by WA.   Doede's designs are excellent.  Well designed, fun to build, not silly priced, reference-level performance in my opinion.  The 120 chip paralleled TDA1543 DDDAC1543MK2 with the USB module was my fav DAC for long time.    This new hi-res usb dac he has designed plays on same level for 16/44 files. Hi-res recordings add that extra layer of fidelity that is quite enjoyable.

From my own testing, I felt USB via pc transport has already surpassed the performance of disc spinners long time ago. Hence why I decided to move on all my disc spinners.  Isn't it funny how there seem to be 2 separate groups. One who has moved to computer based transport because they feel it it brings sonic improvement.  The other group finding the disc spinner still sounds best and computer transport still has long way to go...     both groups listening to same music.    which group is deaf? or should i say, which group is more deaf then the other? :)

Me personally, I think I'm lucky to be in the first group. As using computer transport also includes the much-important convenience factor, without having to feel that I am compromising on sound quality :)
 
Re the bass horns: Nearly done. Probably 1 weekend of work/beer to go before we be rocking.   Indeed,  nothing like bass notes between 50-300hz through a front loaded horn hitting ya ears and body. The speed and scale of transients are pretty crazy.   Reinhard was right all-long about bass horns being the final frontier with regards to 'doing' horns.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 28, 2012, 07:14:35 AM
.  The other group finding the disc spinner still sounds best and computer transport still has long way to go...     both groups listening to same music.    which group is deaf? or should i say, which group is more deaf then the other? :)

Haha, very good T.  Actually reminds me of the demo with Doug last week.  

We ran his laptop via Offramp into a new model KDAC,  then we put the same music onto the Wadia/KDAC.

Steven said "well it's no contest is it", and Doug says "yes, I prefer the laptop".   A very funny moment to be in the room, observing.  :)

Neither is deaf.   I think it's simply a matter of perceiving different traits/qualities, and being accustomed to them.  With familiarity comes an appreciation of the strengths.

    For me, I can understand both points of view.   I did feel that the laptop/Offramp seemed to be slightly more detailed, and the Wadia more liquid and relaxed.     Which is more 'natural'?   I don't know, and it doesn't really matter, because we're now in the realms of personal preference.

Oh, and the comparison is also slightly flawed, in that both digital feeds were via spdif.    We really need to compare I2S, IMHO.   As spdif out of my CD94 has a slight haze to it.   I hear more clarity and details via I2S.

I like to think I've invested a significant amount of time and energy into computer based sources,  and I haven't lost hope that there will be a computer solution in due course that appeals to me more in SQ than my spinner.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on November 28, 2012, 11:31:36 AM
 :D Ha, yes back to the issue of transports.  Well at the mo I still believe that for 16 bit the silver spinners in the form of the CDM1 via I2s has it by a neck for naturalness and a sense of real performers happening in real space with good recordings.  PC based via USB sounds artificial but when taken to higher resolutions sound good but as yet no cigar.  I can live with either but still have a preference for the silver disc as it feels like a worn in pair of slippers compared to a new pair of tight shiny leather shoes. Detail per se is not the full picture although attractive initially becomes quickly wearing particularly in the higher frequencies.
 
I am happy that there are some who continue to plunge into the unknown in the quest for ever better replay as they save me money. ;)  Once solid state replay units have finally come of age and the music industry gets behind the latest and greatest you can be sure they will try and convince us all to buy our whole back catalogue tout suite.  Memory cards are now cheap enough to be the new music carrier and it is easy to maintain the retail trade this way, hi res downloads fails to keep music shops in business and has the risk of HDD crash and die scenarios which most currently ignore.

Hi Res downloads are great quality wise but come at a fair premium over regular 16 bit and then it's downhill trying to get it off the SSD with minimal degradation.  I feel sure that many here will be keeping a weather eye on new developments hoping to find a new wardrobe for the kings new clothes and people like our own Zen Electro may eventually get closer to cracking the timing issues with PC's as he has with silver disk spinners, let’s all hope so.  ;D
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 28, 2012, 06:42:36 PM
and has the risk of HDD crash and die scenarios which most currently ignore.
I don't ignore it,  it's a significant risk, and costs me a fair whack to mitigate.   I have terabytes of SACD iso and DVDA rips stored, that took me hundreds and hundreds of hours to backup.  Stored on expensive NAS with raid redundant discs. But that isn't enough, also have offsite copies.

Quote
Hi Res downloads are great quality wise but come at a fair premium over regular 16 bit and then it's downhill trying to get it off the SSD with minimal degradation. 
Not sure what scenario you mean here V.   Downloading has error checking built into the protocols, to ensure what you get is bit perfect (in terms of duplication).   Curious if there is another scenario I'm not thinking of, that has flaws.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: hedalfa on November 28, 2012, 08:50:09 PM
Andy, what happened with the BLH boxes?  Have you tried them yet?
Thanks for giving us the boxes.

I would have been happy for andy to have them, but yes I can imagine the reaction from her in doors.

I will get around to trying them out for fun. If they were to be made usable they would need a lot of work. I wonder how they would go with goodmans 18 inch drivers, could plenty of mojo, but the box is likely to resonate a lot without better bracing etc.

Cheers
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 29, 2012, 07:02:46 PM
Link to discussion thread on Doede's new designed DAC on DIYAudio forums:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 29, 2012, 08:10:53 PM
Link to discussion thread on Doede's new designed DAC on DIYAudio forums:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html)
Great read tuyen and congrats to doede's work having a go is better then putting $$$ into commercial pockets,looking forward to hearing your dac at my place with computer audio you never know i might be in for a treat...........
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on November 29, 2012, 09:09:31 PM
Hi Andy,

Most welcome if you ever stop by WA.   Doede's designs are excellent.  Well designed, fun to build, not silly priced, reference-level performance in my opinion.  The 120 chip paralleled TDA1543 DDDAC1543MK2 with the USB module was my fav DAC for long time.    This new hi-res usb dac he has designed plays on same level for 16/44 files. Hi-res recordings add that extra layer of fidelity that is quite enjoyable.

From my own testing, I felt USB via pc transport has already surpassed the performance of disc spinners long time ago. Hence why I decided to move on all my disc spinners.  Isn't it funny how there seem to be 2 separate groups. One who has moved to computer based transport because they feel it it brings sonic improvement.  The other group finding the disc spinner still sounds best and computer transport still has long way to go...     both groups listening to same music.    which group is deaf? or should i say, which group is more deaf then the other? :)

Me personally, I think I'm lucky to be in the first group. As using computer transport also includes the much-important convenience factor, without having to feel that I am compromising on sound quality :)
 
Re the bass horns: Nearly done. Probably 1 weekend of work/beer to go before we be rocking.   Indeed,  nothing like bass notes between 50-300hz through a front loaded horn hitting ya ears and body. The speed and scale of transients are pretty crazy.   Reinhard was right all-long about bass horns being the final frontier with regards to 'doing' horns.

Thanks Tuyen

Great news that computer audio is delivering the goods...I was hoping that was the case. I may have more of a chat to you soon about progressing this.

Also looking forward to hearing how the 50hz horns turn out. I would think PM2A Lowther or Field Coil Lowther in one of Martins 204 hz front horns and a 50hz bass could be very special...hopefully I will get to hear it. I also see that Martin can configure the 204hz horn for an Axiom 80 which would be very nice as well. Seems like a really nice guy.

Good luck with the new DAC and I look forward to reading about its developement as well as the bass horns.

Cheers, Andy  ;D
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 29, 2012, 10:07:26 PM
aaaahhhh, yesterday evening we had one of those sound checks, and just right in time before the great  "japanese session", presumably everybody is dreaming of...  oh, what fun and excitement !!! I remember having had this last time when I was young - and when it was just before Christmas...

...late in the afternoon my very unpatiently awaited 2nd, 3rd and 4th deck of Doede's new DDDAC1794 NOS DAC arrived, and what did I do? No, I didn't check it with my "radio", I immediately sat in my car and drove to Klaus. Why? Because there for rather a short time Doede's personal DAC with the Sowters is running for final testing purposes before our session next week...

and so for the second time we had the possibility to listen to this wonder very comfortably not only for a single track, or two, or three, and not in combination with so many other necessities to try out, but singularly and really intensively, and with all sorts of music that we like  a n d  at all loudness volumes we personally enjoy with different tracks and sources (and not only dreaming of how it would sound if we would have the right level - we are on stage)... this was simply mindblowing realistic...

as I told already, for me, this combo leads to HiFi-heaven, and this time we did no longer oscillate on the border, we were clearly in...

it was no question:

1. the multiple boards very independently from other tweakings lead to the generally desired positive effects (reduced jitter...) that we already are aware of the DDDAC 1543 and

2. the different controlled power supplies from Doede and Bernd in direct comparison showed the necessity of implementing one at all... yes, there were slightly audible differences, but not of an excluding sort, one can very sublimely "live" with both, no matter, in the end the differences here are audible but rather "neglectable" as a whole...

3. the biggest surprise was not that what we already knew and what we had in our minds and what we have been listening to before and what now very impressively was confirmed, the real icing on the cake this time was something completely different, something that we discovered by accident, and for me this is some sort of voodoo because it is totally within the digital area where only 0's and 1's reign...

perhaps you might remember that a year ago or even before I implemented the silver USB Kimber cable in my system ? Well this cable was heavily recommended by Chris Connecker over at www.computeraudiophile.com ... normally I am very hesitating in following such recommendations, but as there were so many DIYers responding about dramatic positive effects in all their whatsoever different systems (remembering me of the saying when judging a Grateful Dead show: "100.000 dead heads can't be wrong", I finally gave it a try and - was not disappointed... there was contrarily so much more: once listened to it, there was no way back...

this cable being implemented within my system. at that time into the DDDAC1543 DAC, brought an amelioration in sound that was simply incredible and must be heard to be believed - but - and here comes the voodoo - and what was totally not understandable for us - brought zero effect within Klaus's system, we had no explanation for it, but it was exactly like that...

and just yesterday - out of nothing - while talking on the telephone, Klaus asked me to bring this cable to him, and I was thinking to myself, that this would be of no use, but as it was Klaus asking, I did it of course... and after Klaus having implemented the cable in his system all of a sudden the same positive effects were immediately so clearly listenable as in mine. Klaus, who only very heavily gets really excited, only looked at me with that very rare smile in his face I like the most from him: satisfied down to the bone!!!

to make it short: in combination to all those wonderful ameliorations that we are experiencing with the DDDAC1794 this tiny little cable is highly effective, working wonders on to the sound, it simply puts away two thick curtains and adds an extra very welcome dose of openness, pulling the whole sound one meter more in front of the system, like a precise but smooth fortissimo coming out of nothing, and all in the intended direction.... normally for such an amelioration one has to pay lots and lots of money, and this time, if I have it right in mind, only some 65 $ !!!

well. with all fun that we had, what did we learn: we always have to try out, even if we are absolutely convinced that we already know... it seems we do not...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on November 30, 2012, 09:05:18 AM
All good guys  :D

Nice stuff Reinhard.  I using a 'special' pure silver USB cable too. I think I could hear a slight improvement over the standard USB cable, but it could of been because the silver cable length is only 0.5m while the standard cable was 1m.   

Did you/Klaus keep the length of the 2 cables consistent?   I wonder which factor has more influence on the effects you noticed. The length, the shielding between the wires inside(one is carrying 5v power and others data) or the material that the wire is made of.

We would assume, the best USB cable, is no USB cable. Right?  So I wonder if there will most improvement if we could solder from the motherboard of the computer a 2-4cm length of wire to the USB module. Bypassing the standard USB cable and sockets may yield good benefits?

I remember seeing in the past someone doing exactly this with the old dddac1543. They built an all in one music server solution.

Maybe something to think about...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on November 30, 2012, 09:43:46 PM
JKeny recommends a usb2usb connector, instead of USB cables (for his USB converter).

Extremely short 2" hard connection.   Makes it all a bit inconvenient placement wise.   But swears it makes an audible improvement.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on November 30, 2012, 10:34:34 PM
I didn't know where to put this - so here it is.

If any of you guys can sit through it, it is very good, especially around the middle.
One of the designers at ESS (Sabre) talks about SD dacs versus multibit, noise shaping, etc
Most interestingly your ability to hear all these things and why.

They certainly put a lot of work into the Sabre.

I was put on to it by abraxalito of diyaudo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CkyrDIGzOE







Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 01, 2012, 02:08:43 AM
F.a.r.k. Me.    I was having a restless sleep, and instead of turning on the tv and falling asleep, I made the mistake of checking in, and clicking play on this clip.   :-\

Utterly fascinating, thanks for sharing that Zen. Probably the most thought provoking YouTube clip I've ever seen.  I immediately want to watch it again, but I can't, otherwise I'd be up all night.

Now I know why you were inspired to try the Sabre.  

I come back to the concept of bypassing the filtering just doesn't seem right, if using a sigma delta Dac.   Well, it's flat out wrong, according to this clip.    Is that what you're doing Doede?   Are you really bypassing the filtering?  Or have I got it wrong?    Are you bypassing oversampling only, but there is still noise shaping and dithering filters in another part of the circuit?     But hang on, it's a sigma delta chip,   So by definition,  it *has* to be resampling the 24bit input signal.     Hmmm.      ???

I think I'm starting to realise why a tda1541a in nos mode with tube outputs works well.   There are short comings that the (now dated) oversampling tries to overcome (likely to be primarily HF nasties),  but the oversampling introduces it's own kind of issues (veil) that wasn't there before.    Remove the oversampling step, removes the veil,  but what about the inherent nasties that are still there?    The tubes on the output stage filters them out.  [light bulb moment] Could be barking up the wrong tree, and joining the wrong dots,,,,, not sure.

Coming back to sigma delta.   If the Sabre really does have superior filters to all the other sigma delta chips on the market,  maybe tube outputs aren't really needed?   They might still add that euphonic romance,  but maybe the inherent HF filtering provided by the tubes isn't needed?

Where does that leave us?   Scratching our heads, trying to figure out the right settings to use, on the myriad of programmable settings on the Sabre.    It could be all too hard Zen,  but I get the feeling the guys at Sabre have figured this all out, and they don't publish it.    

Ps: loved the references to the various 'customers' having the 'audio dude' who does the listening test, and gives the final tick in the box.   Very good.   :D
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 01, 2012, 02:49:28 AM
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1370915/Audio/pcm1794_flowdiag.jpg)

If there is a way to bypass that oversampling module, and get straight to the dac modulator,  then it's undocumented.  

If that modulator handles the re-sampling from 16/24bit into whatever multibit wordlength the chip converts at (?), then maybe the modulator also has its own noise-shaping/dithering algorithms?  

Doede, chime in here, and tell us what you know the 1794 chip does in each of these modules,  so I can understand the approach better.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 01, 2012, 11:43:25 AM
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1370915/Audio/pcm1794_flowdiag.jpg)

If there is a way to bypass that oversampling module, and get straight to the dac modulator,  then it's undocumented.  

If that modulator handles the re-sampling from 16/24bit into whatever multibit wordlength the chip converts at (?), then maybe the modulator also has its own noise-shaping/dithering algorithms?  

Doede, chime in here, and tell us what you know the 1794 chip does in each of these modules,  so I can understand the approach better.

Oz,

The important thing to understand is the 8 x OS filter and the modulator are separate things.

The 8 x OS filter has it's own low pass brick wall filter, and the SD modulator has it's internal, in the Sabres case, 5th order
LPF. The modulators filter is working much higher and as you can see from the vid in a different way.

In both Sabre and 1794 you can disable the OS filter and just use PCM straight into the modulator - I think.

However I'm not sure of the real consequences of running a DS DAC at say 44.1 or even 96 / 192 without
upsampling to say 352kHz. There must be some impact WRT the OOB noise.

That's why I asked the question WRT wide band plots of 1794 running 'zero OS'.

I'll just have to do all this myself in the usual zen - no BS fashion, this is what it does, this what I
understand, this is what I don't  etc etc.

The video was most interesting WRT a) how modulators react to non steady signals, b) humans perception
of music through various DAC / electronics.

The other thing Sabre has is an inbuilt ASRC. This recalculates the samples based on a separate and independent
clock at the DAC. So you can feed anything into Sabre and the OP will always be locked to a fixed clock.
These (ASRC's) are notoriously bad for sound. The Sabres is reportedly very good but it is still a question.

The secret is you can also disable this feature and run the chip synchronously.

The last thing is that because these SD DACs run at very high speeds, I believe the clocking becomes
very important.

Once you consider all these things, the bog simple R2R looks like a complete doddle to get right in comparison. :)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 01, 2012, 01:32:06 PM
OK Oz,

How's the headache going? :)

Here's some more. The first section is on digital vol control versus analog.

The second half is on jitter. This is worth persevering with as it explains various clocking systems,
PLL's, ASRC's etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYjHKv2_OqQ



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 01, 2012, 02:38:10 PM
The important thing to understand is the 8 x OS filter and the modulator are separate things.

The 8 x OS filter has it's own low pass brick wall filter, and the SD modulator has it's internal, in the Sabres case, 5th order
LPF. The modulators filter is working much higher and as you can see from the vid in a different way.

In both Sabre and 1794 you can disable the OS filter and just use PCM straight into the modulator - I think.
Yeah, I came to that realisation while thinking and typing last night (note the quote below).  

If there is a way to bypass that oversampling module, and get straight to the dac modulator,  then it's undocumented.  

If that modulator handles the re-sampling from 16/24bit into whatever multibit wordlength the chip converts at (?), then maybe the modulator also has its own noise-shaping/dithering algorithms?  

I just dont know how Doede is bypassing the OS filter, as I cant find that documented into the datasheet anywhere??   There must be some pins that you can tap into on the 1794 that take you straight to the modulator.

Quote
However I'm not sure of the real consequences of running a DS DAC at say 44.1 or even 96 / 192 without
upsampling to say 352kHz. There must be some impact WRT the OOB noise.

That's why I asked the question WRT wide band plots of 1794 running 'zero OS'.

Well my view is that NOS is a purist thing.  If the dac chip can take the data and simply convert it, with no other messing around,  then this is a purist NOS implementation  (in my naive view).      If the 1794 is a sigma delta chip,  then it's messing with the data anyway.   This NOS business on a SD chip, is something I'm sceptical about.    R2R chips are the way to go, IF simplicity is what people are chasing.   But that said, I havent heard this dddac,  and I remain open minded about it.  
  
Quote
I'll just have to do all this myself in the usual zen - no BS fashion, this is what it does, this what I
understand, this is what I don't  etc etc.
  Yeah, I know.    But there was an email address offered in the video,  for people to use,  who have questions they want answered and cant find the answers online.    The speaker even explained how ESS simply dont publish alot of information, but it is available.

Quote
The video was most interesting WRT a) how modulators react to non steady signals, b) humans perception
of music through various DAC / electronics.
Absolutely,  the speaker also talked a number of times about all the things that cant be measured.  And relying on those with trained ears, to judge whether their "theory" translates into a better sound.   I liked that.    

Quote
Once you consider all these things, the bog simple R2R looks like a complete doddle to get right in comparison. :)
Yeah.   How big a hill do you want to climb?    
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 01, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
Here's some more. The first section is on digital vol control versus analog.

The second half is on jitter. This is worth persevering with as it explains various clocking systems,
PLL's, ASRC's etc.
Might watch it tonight, if I cant sleep again.  haha.  ;)  

Thanks, busy doing family stuff today, but will check it out for sure at some point.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 02, 2012, 09:30:13 AM
The other thing Sabre has is an inbuilt ASRC. This recalculates the samples based on a separate and independent
clock at the DAC. So you can feed anything into Sabre and the OP will always be locked to a fixed clock.
These (ASRC's) are notoriously bad for sound. The Sabres is reportedly very good but it is still a question.
This makes me wonder what that fixed clock is,  and if it inherently favours (works better) with certain data types to others?

Quote
The secret is you can also disable this feature and run the chip synchronously.
That should give you greater control,  but I still have this irrepressible feeling that the OP wants a certain speed.    So if you bypass it,  if you are giving it what it wants/likes, all is fine.   If you're feeding it a speed it doesn't like, it could compromise the performance of the OP step.

I dunno, it's speculation, but it's these types of questions that ESS would be able to answer.

I have a tendency to over simplify complex stuff.  But for the Sabre, my starting point would be,   Learn what that fixed clock speed is (you might already know?),  then decide on the most appropriate source format to match the end clock,   then optimise your middleman to suit the source/end points.   So we have as simple as possible reading, transporting and processing chain. 

Then get everything else around the dac chip optimised,  power supplies,  output electronics, etc.

Once you're hitting home runs.   Then start to experiment with other source formats/reclocking the different sample rates.

Just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 02, 2012, 10:47:16 AM
The other thing Sabre has is an inbuilt ASRC. This recalculates the samples based on a separate and independent
clock at the DAC. So you can feed anything into Sabre and the OP will always be locked to a fixed clock.
These (ASRC's) are notoriously bad for sound. The Sabres is reportedly very good but it is still a question.
This makes me wonder what that fixed clock is,  and if it inherently favours (works better) with certain data types to others?

Quote
The secret is you can also disable this feature and run the chip synchronously.
That should give you greater control,  but I still have this irrepressible feeling that the OP wants a certain speed.    So if you bypass it,  if you are giving it what it wants/likes, all is fine.   If you're feeding it a speed it doesn't like, it could compromise the performance of the OP step.

I dunno, it's speculation, but it's these types of questions that ESS would be able to answer.



I have a tendency to over simplify complex stuff.  But for the Sabre, my starting point would be,   Learn what that fixed clock speed is (you might already know?),  then decide on the most appropriate source format to match the end clock,   then optimise your middleman to suit the source/end points.   So we have as simple as possible reading, transporting and processing chain. 

Then get everything else around the dac chip optimised,  power supplies,  output electronics, etc.

Once you're hitting home runs.   Then start to experiment with other source formats/reclocking the different sample rates.

Just thinking out loud.

Oz, I have already looked into all of this and for a USB connected DAC it can be all done really well by virtue of the
fact that with asynchronous USB, you can have fixed clock(s) in the DAC itself. 

I'll PM you.

cheers


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 02, 2012, 11:13:45 AM
No worries.   My issue with hi-res solutions is they try to be all things to all digital formats, and as a result, somewhere in the chain a compromise is made.

I guess what I'm saying is,  somewhere a frequency conversion has to happen,  if the source material doesn't evenly translate to the end point (44.1 or 48 derivatives).

I reckon it would be ok to put that aside altogether for the moment,  and be focussing on 1 or the other (and also be focussing on PCM or DVD).    [shrugs]

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 02, 2012, 01:30:42 PM
No worries.   My issue with hi-res solutions is they try to be all things to all digital formats, and as a result, somewhere in the chain a compromise is made.

I guess what I'm saying is,  somewhere a frequency conversion has to happen,  if the source material doesn't evenly translate to the end point (44.1 or 48 derivatives).


With async USB -> I2S that is not the case.

If file on PC is 44.1 then DAC will work at 44.1, if file is 192 DAC will work at 192, an so on.

So ideally the dac should be run 0 x OS and any OS would be done at PC end.

If the USB -> I2S converter is designed properly, the appropriate clock will be engaged and the
-DAC- can be run completely synchronously without any PLL, or ASRC required. This is the most
ideal configuration WRT low jitter.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 02, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
The fixed clock in the chip (that you want to bypass), what frequency does it run at?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: dddac on December 05, 2012, 03:17:33 PM
I am not sure I want to get dragged into too much of a techno-philosophical discussion on what might be the best way to do things, so I leave it up to the ones who actually build the DDDAC1794 NOS if they like what they hear coming out of the DAC. That is what Reinhard wanted to show here in this thread, namely his listening experiences and joy he founds in it.

nevertheless, I picked up some ideas for further testing, by means of listening and measuring, so there is value in discussions like this to be very honest  ;D

One thing I like to answer is about avoiding the digital filter and oversampling in the PCM1794. Actually it is very well documented in the data sheet. it tells you exactly what to do and what selection pins need to pulled high or set low. Also timing diagrams are provided. The trick I used to overcome the need for up sampling the world clock, by just paralleling the system and bit clock is not mentioned. But basically the rest is the same. Did you miss that, or did I did not understand the question right?

just let me know if things are cleared ?


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 05, 2012, 04:55:42 PM
I missed it, and I don't exactly know what you're doing.

So you're feeding the modulator directly?

Do you know what the modulator is doing?   I don't (on that chip) and am curious to know.

I suspect it is taking 16 or 24bit data, and converting it into 8bit?   But it will be doing so much more,,,,,
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on December 05, 2012, 05:09:50 PM
have you been through the website oz?    if not, i'd recommend it. doede seems to explain pretty much step by step his design process. 

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_design.html (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_design.html)

not sure if it answers all the questions you have though.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 05, 2012, 06:08:59 PM
I missed it, and I don't exactly know what you're doing.

So you're feeding the modulator directly?

Do you know what the modulator is doing?   I don't (on that chip) and am curious to know.

I suspect it is taking 16 or 24bit data, and converting it into 8bit?   But it will be doing so much more,,,,,

The oversampling filter is upsampling IP data by 8 x. You are bypassing this and feeding direct
into advanced segment modulator. So looks like the modulator can actually take sample rates up to
1.536MHz (8 x 192kHz). However looking at the distortion it works best around 350kHz (8 x 44.1).
At 192k the distortion gets worse.

FWIW if you want to know more about advanced segment operation there is a white paper somewhere.

Z
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 05, 2012, 07:55:33 PM
have you been through the website oz?    if not, i'd recommend it. doede seems to explain pretty much step by step his design process.  

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_design.html (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_design.html)

not sure if it answers all the questions you have though.
Hey T, yep read it, and previously complimented Doede's work in documenting/sharing what he has done, you don't see this from any other Dac producer.   I take my hat off to Doede for doing this.

No, unfortunately it doesn't answer my question.    What exactly is the modulator step doing on the PCM1794 chip?   We're bypassing the oversampling filter,  and we're going straight into the modulator.    Curiosity has got me by the short and curly's.    Delta sigma chips resample pcm data,  what will the modulator be resampling to (in word length and frequency)?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 05, 2012, 08:01:26 PM
The oversampling filter is upsampling IP data by 8 x. You are bypassing this and feeding direct
into advanced segment modulator. So looks like the modulator can actually take sample rates up to
1.536MHz (8 x 192kHz). However looking at the distortion it works best around 350kHz (8 x 44.1).
At 192k the distortion gets worse.

FWIW if you want to know more about advanced segment operation there is a white paper somewhere.
I would definitely like to read it, if you can find it easily?

What is driving my question?

If we feed the dddac-1794 a RBCD source (16-44.1), what happens within the chip when we bypass the oversampling step?    What actually happens in that modulator, before the data is given to the Dac conversion step?     It would be nice to know.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 06, 2012, 02:32:51 PM
The oversampling filter is upsampling IP data by 8 x. You are bypassing this and feeding direct
into advanced segment modulator. So looks like the modulator can actually take sample rates up to
1.536MHz (8 x 192kHz). However looking at the distortion it works best around 350kHz (8 x 44.1).
At 192k the distortion gets worse.

FWIW if you want to know more about advanced segment operation there is a white paper somewhere.
I would definitely like to read it, if you can find it easily?

What is driving my question?

If we feed the dddac-1794 a RBCD source (16-44.1), what happens within the chip when we bypass the oversampling step?    What actually happens in that modulator, before the data is given to the Dac conversion step?     It would be nice to know.

There is some info on various SD architectures in this one also has segmented DAC included.

Also explains the unity weighted multi bit OP's with various DEM approaches.

If you can get even a little through this you'll realize these guys put a -lot- of work and research into this.


http://www.cscamm.umd.edu/programs/ocq05/adams/adams_ocq05.pdf

Pretty full on :)





Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 06, 2012, 07:31:32 PM
[sighs] I wish I never read it.   :P

For those who like simplicity, sigma delta is *not* it.  :-\

It's pretty clear the 1794 modulator step is manipulating the bit rate down to probably 4 or 6 bit words.   But if i'm reading that slide pack correctly, the approach seems to rely on the incoming sampling rate being oversampled *before* the modulator.

I don't want to get too deep into this, because I'll end up running in circles until I understand it.

Key slide,,,,,,
Quote
∆Σ Basic Facts
* ∆Σ works by oversampling, coarse quantization and noise-shaping
* High SNR is possible, if OSR and modulator order are high enough
* Low-order modulators (i.e.1st-order and 2nd-order) are susceptible to in-band tones and DC-input deadbands
* Single-bit modulators are inherently linear, but multi-bit modulators have much higher performance
     o Single-bit modulators typically overload for inputs > –3dBFS
* ∆Σ modulators come in many flavors: single-bit/multi-bit, single-loop/multi-loop, lowpass/bandpass and real/quadrature (complex)


So my question remains.  What is this particular 1794 chip doing with a 16/44.1 signal, when the oversampling filter is bypassed?   I have a sinking feeling it is decimating samples, hope I'm wrong.......  It could be dividing the input down into multiple even streams, but if the sampling rate was too low (in each sub stream), you'd imagine distortion would higher.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on December 07, 2012, 04:55:30 PM
I'm not too sure either what it is doing with 16/44.1 signals, but had one guy post this re the subject:

I only have 44.1/16 music and now upsample it all to 176.4 (rather than 192 as 176.4 is a whole number multiplier of 44.1) using Secret Rabbit Code Level 0 (the highest quality) all performed in software within mpdPup to a WaveIO. It is excellent and gives a major boost to SQ without IMHO any unpleasant artifacts.


another guy's post:

I think that might have to wait.  That I haven't switched off your DAC after a few hours listening and fired up my TDA1541A comfort blanket, says it all really. Don't quote me on this, and of course I am allowed to change my mind if I ever do implement a 1704 daughter-board, but my gut feeling is that 1704 will sound more "digital" than what you have now. There is a naturalness, a kind of organic nature, which reminds me more of old-school Burr Brown and Philips chips, more than anything else I have heard which has a sigma-delta badge, or even 1704 for that matter.

I will post some more later. But I had a most interesting time last night with mpd upsampling 44.1/16 CD rips to 176.4. (I don't have a great deal of >44.1k material, so was just playing with software upsampling redbook to 88.2 and 176.4 on the laptop.) Since then I have installed Triode's EDO plugin and kernel on my Logitech Touch (for USB DAC support and > 96k sample rate support) and currently have the DAC hooked up to that. The idea being that I could after editing a config file on the server, use sox or ssrc, to up/over sample on-the-fly. Only problem with that is that I can't go above 96k at the moment due to the Touch using wireless network. Doesn't have the bandwidth to support 176k sample rates. I'll hook up via ethernet later. Reading the John Swenson post, (linked above), I think he is onto something. If you are going to OS and DF, you can get better results doing it in software, not the filters built into the chips.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 07, 2012, 06:14:21 PM
I'm not too sure either what it is doing with 16/44.1 signals, but had one guy post this re the subject:

I only have 44.1/16 music and now upsample it all to 176.4 (rather than 192 as 176.4 is a whole number multiplier of 44.1) using Secret Rabbit Code Level 0 (the highest quality) all performed in software within mpdPup to a WaveIO. It is excellent and gives a major boost to SQ without IMHO any unpleasant artifacts.


another guy's post:

I think that might have to wait.  That I haven't switched off your DAC after a few hours listening and fired up my TDA1541A comfort blanket, says it all really. Don't quote me on this, and of course I am allowed to change my mind if I ever do implement a 1704 daughter-board, but my gut feeling is that 1704 will sound more "digital" than what you have now. There is a naturalness, a kind of organic nature, which reminds me more of old-school Burr Brown and Philips chips, more than anything else I have heard which has a sigma-delta badge, or even 1704 for that matter.

I will post some more later. But I had a most interesting time last night with mpd upsampling 44.1/16 CD rips to 176.4. (I don't have a great deal of >44.1k material, so was just playing with software upsampling redbook to 88.2 and 176.4 on the laptop.) Since then I have installed Triode's EDO plugin and kernel on my Logitech Touch (for USB DAC support and > 96k sample rate support) and currently have the DAC hooked up to that. The idea being that I could after editing a config file on the server, use sox or ssrc, to up/over sample on-the-fly. Only problem with that is that I can't go above 96k at the moment due to the Touch using wireless network. Doesn't have the bandwidth to support 176k sample rates. I'll hook up via ethernet later. Reading the John Swenson post, (linked above), I think he is onto something. If you are going to OS and DF, you can get better results doing it in software, not the filters built into the chips.


These are great reviews.

However what are they really saying?

The DAC designer went to heroic lengths to run a SD DAC without digital filter, implying that was the problem.
The user adds the digital filter in his PC by upsampling to 176.4 and gets great results.
 
1) The 1794 DAC is a great DAC -but-
2) The 1794 standard digital filter is crap 
3) If the digital filter is done right there is no advantage to 0 x oversampling?

More questions

Z



 




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on December 07, 2012, 07:00:25 PM
Unsure Z.   Maybe the DF in the 1794 is poo and 'ruins' the sound.  In in saying that, some people might actually prefer this 'ruined' sound?    Maybe software DF works better than the built in hardware DF on the 1794?        Is it similar story to why people bypass OS on the marantz cdp and prefer the sound when running NOS mode? 

What I personally take from it all is, try, experiment, have fun with it.    all is possible... and there really never is an absolute right or wrong way to do things, as the final sound to each and every person is different and subjective.  Right? :)

For reference, I have not been upsampling any files, just running them natively from foobar2000 to the usb module.  16/44.1 material sounds on the same level (but slightly diff) to the 120chip dddac1543mk2.   the dddac1794 nos  has slightly more open and refined sound. treble and bass definition/extension feels improved.  The older dddac has bit more energy/rawness.  But could be because was using poor power supply to power the older dddac  while with the new dddac, i'm running decent linear 'audiophile' psu.    Few too many factors at play to be able to give any concrete conclusions regarding the actual dac chip  and   sd vs r2r.     

One thing I am quite confident in concluding is that the hi-res recordings (24/88, 24/96, 24/174 & 24/192) can (not all) have the ability to deliver noticeably more fidelity in the sound over standard 16/44.1 cd rips.  The music seems to be less 'forced' out and is more open/effortless. Subtle details are easier identified.  Bass and treble notes seem to have improved finer clarity and definition.

Overall, happy enough with the performance to just stick to the one dac. Paired with a nice valve preamp, makes a really exceptional hi-res supported digital solution. Probably best I have experienced in my system so far (subjective).  All from a $400 dac kit :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on December 07, 2012, 09:33:36 PM
Unsure Z.   Maybe the DF in the 1794 is poo and 'ruins' the sound.  In in saying that, some people might actually prefer this 'ruined' sound?    Maybe software DF works better than the built in hardware DF on the 1794?        Is it similar story to why people bypass OS on the marantz cdp and prefer the sound when running NOS mode? 

What I personally take from it all is, try, experiment, have fun with it.    all is possible... and there really never is an absolute right or wrong way to do things, as the final sound to each and every person is different and subjective.  Right? :)

For reference, I have not been upsampling any files, just running them natively from foobar2000 to the usb module.  16/44.1 material sounds on the same level (but slightly diff) to the 120chip dddac1543mk2.   the dddac1794 nos  has slightly more open and refined sound. treble and bass definition/extension feels improved.  The older dddac has bit more energy/rawness.  But could be because was using poor power supply to power the older dddac  while with the new dddac, i'm running decent linear 'audiophile' psu.    Few too many factors at play to be able to give any concrete conclusions regarding the actual dac chip  and   sd vs r2r.     

One thing I am quite confident in concluding is that the hi-res recordings (24/88, 24/96, 24/174 & 24/192) can (not all) have the ability to deliver noticeably more fidelity in the sound over standard 16/44.1 cd rips.  The music seems to be less 'forced' out and is more open/effortless. Subtle details are easier identified.  Bass and treble notes seem to have improved finer clarity and definition.

Overall, happy enough with the performance to just stick to the one dac. Paired with a nice valve preamp, makes a really exceptional hi-res supported digital solution. Probably best I have experienced in my system so far (subjective).  All from a $400 dac kit :)
Maybe the DF in the 1794 is poo and



Thats the bottom line tuyen only $400 bargain if stays in your system longer then a month it must be good ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 07, 2012, 10:25:34 PM
I still wanna know what exactly that freaking 1794 modulator is doing,,,,   ???   :P  :P
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on December 08, 2012, 12:55:42 AM
I still wanna know what exactly that freaking 1794 modulator is doing,,,,   ???   :P  :P
modulating numbers (heavy duty accountant ) :P
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 08, 2012, 11:16:11 AM
I still wanna know what exactly that freaking 1794 modulator is doing,,,,   ???   :P  :P

Do a search for the advanced segment patent. That may shine some more light.

Then there is always the DSD1794 - same DAC but also does DSD.

And I know you will want to know how it handles DSD signals.

I think better off to build - lifes too short.



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 08, 2012, 08:53:10 PM
I think I figured out that the multibit DSD chips are doing multiple 1 bit sub streams in parallel,  what I couldn't figure out is precisely how the sampling is handled, and how many sub streams are occurring.   I'm assuming it is just divided down.

24/192k, divided into 4x6bit/48k (then into further 1bit sub streams). Something like that,,,, (16/44.1 is a real worry).

For the DSD1794,   I'm guessing the 1bit incoming stream is converted something like....

1/2.8224m, into 6x1bit/470.4k sub streams, that are multiplexed.

These are purely guesses, based on loose reading.  I could be way off in my thinking.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 10, 2012, 06:49:31 AM
Quote from: tuyen link=topic=842.msg12339#msg12339 date=
Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@

Me too.. 15+ months and counting :-X

Good news! Just yesterday I talked personally to Mr. Schick, and he promised me that you will receive your tonearm till the end of this year !!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 10, 2012, 09:17:08 AM
I think I figured out that the multibit DSD chips are doing multiple 1 bit sub streams in parallel,  what I couldn't figure out is precisely how the sampling is handled, and how many sub streams are occurring.   I'm assuming it is just divided down.

24/192k, divided into 4x6bit/48k (then into further 1bit sub streams). Something like that,,,, (16/44.1 is a real worry).

For the DSD1794,   I'm guessing the 1bit incoming stream is converted something like....

1/2.8224m, into 6x1bit/470.4k sub streams, that are multiplexed.

These are purely guesses, based on loose reading.  I could be way off in my thinking.


Oz,

I think you are a bit off but I don't really have time atm to dig up the resources to post here.
I'll see if I can address it this week sonme time

Clocks to build, stuff to fix yada yada

Z


 


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 10, 2012, 09:32:34 AM
Yeah, won't be the first time.  ;)

When I get some time, I'll do some further reading/googling on it all.   1 thing that seems pretty clear, that modulator step is dramatically manipulating the data in some way, before presenting it to the dac step.   

Understanding what the modulator does and how it does it, may tell us a fair amount about the effects of skipping the oversampling step?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 10, 2012, 09:43:54 AM
The DAC designer went to heroic lengths to run a SD DAC without digital filter, implying that was the problem.
The user adds the digital filter in his PC by upsampling to 176.4 and gets great results.
PC based up sampling is becoming quite common.  I've read about a lot of Metrum Octave (nos dac) users doing the same thing.

Some users swearing that 16bit up sampled on the pc to 24/176.4 sounds virtually as good as native 24bit music.    I find these experiences very interesting,  it tells me that the actual resolution of the music isn't the bottleneck,  it's how the data is being handled.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on December 16, 2012, 08:38:19 PM
Quote from: tuyen link=topic=842.msg12339#msg12339 date=
Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@

Me too.. 15+ months and counting :-X

Good news! Just yesterday I talked personally to Mr. Schick, and he promised me that you will receive your tonearm till the end of this year !!!

How was the meet, Reinhard?

Stefano has posted some photos and info on his blog.  Looked really enjoyable.  Who was the person from Australia?!

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/eau-de-cologne-winter-2012.html (http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/eau-de-cologne-winter-2012.html)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: twogoodears on December 17, 2012, 04:43:54 AM
Hi Tuyen... yes, I confirm it was a VERY enjoyable day, indeed... the gentleman from Australia is named James Woodbridge, sure an Aussie, but living and working in Bonn, actually... a very curious and empathic kind of guy and a pleasure to chat with.
Cheers.
Stefano
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 17, 2012, 05:03:30 AM
Quote from: tuyen link=topic=842.msg12339#msg12339 date=
Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@

Me too.. 15+ months and counting :-X

Good news! Just yesterday I talked personally to Mr. Schick, and he promised me that you will receive your tonearm till the end of this year !!!

How was the meet, Reinhard?

Stefano has posted some photos and info on his blog.  Looked really enjoyable.  Who was the person from Australia?!

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/eau-de-cologne-winter-2012.html (http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/eau-de-cologne-winter-2012.html)

well, let me begin here:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=900.0
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on December 17, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
thank you guys.  Enjoyable read.  Photos from Stefano really helped paint the scene :)


Anyways, back on topic of the nice new DDDAC 1794 NOS.

Guy in UK has added tube output stage to it.  Seems to like it.

(http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/digital-line-level/317869d1355613138-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-ddac1794_bcf.jpg)

Having had the chance to fiddle with various output stages for the DDAC1794, I've decided to stick with the Broskie Cathode Follower. (I make no apologies for being a tube guy.)

One thing I have found is that there is a benefit to be had using the +/- output from the DAC. Although I have not tried a transformer, (don't have anything suitable to hand), I expect that the benefit would be the same. You could even consider the BCF to be a sort of poor mans "active" tube transformer, converting a balanced output to single ended, but step-down, 2:1. (So if you had 1.2V single-ended from using one of the outputs, you'll still have 1.2V SE using both of the outs via the BCF.) Aside from any on-paper arguments about CMRR and noise cancellation, the bottom line.... more focus and less grain combining the outputs, as opposed to just using one single ended output. (Of course, if you prefer opamps...... )

Although I was using a differential gain stage in front of the BCF, I've gone back to the 133R I/V resistors and am just using the BCF to obtain a SE output from balanced.

200V HT from Tom Christiansen 21st Century Maida Regulator to the tubes. Heater supply is regulated too. ECC88's, 220R cathode resistors.
50k grid stopper and feedback resistors. That's all there is to it really.

I also swapped my original "junk" 7812 reg that was powering the main DAC board for a Salas shunt. To be honest, I couldn't hear any difference. Then I tried an eBay reg module based on the LT1764, claiming 40uV of noise. Couldn't hear any difference with that either. So it has stayed in by virtue of being last into the circuit. (I've ordered another to power the WaveIO board.)

I'll put it all into a case over the Christmas holidays.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozcal on December 17, 2012, 07:01:49 PM
Good stuff T . I have a BCF on the way to use with the A-gd dac.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 17, 2012, 07:51:39 PM
thank you guys.  Enjoyable read.  Photos from Stefano really helped paint the scene :)


Anyways, back on topic of the nice new DDDAC 1794 NOS.

Guy in UK has added tube output stage to it.  Seems to like it.

(http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/digital-line-level/317869d1355613138-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-ddac1794_bcf.jpg)

Having had the chance to fiddle with various output stages for the DDAC1794, I've decided to stick with the Broskie Cathode Follower. (I make no apologies for being a tube guy.)

One thing I have found is that there is a benefit to be had using the +/- output from the DAC. Although I have not tried a transformer, (don't have anything suitable to hand), I expect that the benefit would be the same. You could even consider the BCF to be a sort of poor mans "active" tube transformer, converting a balanced output to single ended, but step-down, 2:1. (So if you had 1.2V single-ended from using one of the outputs, you'll still have 1.2V SE using both of the outs via the BCF.) Aside from any on-paper arguments about CMRR and noise cancellation, the bottom line.... more focus and less grain combining the outputs, as opposed to just using one single ended output. (Of course, if you prefer opamps...... )

Although I was using a differential gain stage in front of the BCF, I've gone back to the 133R I/V resistors and am just using the BCF to obtain a SE output from balanced.

200V HT from Tom Christiansen 21st Century Maida Regulator to the tubes. Heater supply is regulated too. ECC88's, 220R cathode resistors.
50k grid stopper and feedback resistors. That's all there is to it really.

I also swapped my original "junk" 7812 reg that was powering the main DAC board for a Salas shunt. To be honest, I couldn't hear any difference. Then I tried an eBay reg module based on the LT1764, claiming 40uV of noise. Couldn't hear any difference with that either. So it has stayed in by virtue of being last into the circuit. (I've ordered another to power the WaveIO board.)

I'll put it all into a case over the Christmas holidays.


Tuyen,

You have making of incredible system now - but need to start thinking outside (or maybe inside) the box.

There are already tubes in pre amp, the pre amp is fully balanced - the dac is fully balanced.
 
It may not be looking at you but I can see it clearly, direct couple DAC OP, fully balanced, to the pre amp IP tubes.
It is very simple. 

You don't need broskie cathode fiollower - this converts bal to unbal, only to feed your pre amp which is balanced.

cheers

Z
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: tuyen on December 18, 2012, 12:40:07 AM
Cheers Z. Makes sense.. I had thought about going down the same path.   Just saw that a guy had tubed the outputs and thought be nice to share someone's diy fun :)

The guy's advice pretty much aligns with yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuyen 
Does that mean I can bypass the coupling capacitor? How about the R load resistors?

My advice would be, unless you know that the inputs to your pre are cap coupled, stick with the coupling caps on the outputs of the DAC.

The I/V resistors? The DAC has current outputs. You need to keep the I/V resistors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuyen 
PS. your temp setup looks really interesting Clive. How does the tube rectification/output stage compare to the standard passive IV output? Do you use a valve preamp as well? IE. will I benefit from going an active tube output stage like yours if I already am using a decent valve preamp?

Well, the BCF I'm using although active, isn't really active in as much as it doesn't provide gain. It just combines the balanced outputs into a single output for SE use. In your case, where you'll be using both +/- outputs into your pre, there is no need to add anything if you are happy with the concept of passive output from the DAC board.

The problem with adding active tube stages to DAC's is that without feedback, they better be very low distortion, or you end up in the situation, where the passive out has reasonably low distortion to start with, that you increase it just by adding a tube stage. And without using very high transconductance tubes, you'll probably be adding more noise to the output than is there with the passive out.

IMHO, there is a benefit from using the balanced outputs from the DAC. Without getting into any audiofool clichés, eg. "it seemed like a veil was lifted", I didn't find it subtle. If you have a balanced setup to start with, you don't need to do anything. If you are single-ended, then it is worth thinking about transformers or the BCF.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: dddac on December 27, 2012, 11:39:33 PM
a quick response to the many posts where the modulator is questioned ....

also in the DIY forum, there are posts about questioning the working of the modulator. Of course I cannot look inside the chip to see what happens, but I can look outside....:) ( and listen for that matter)

when I look (measure) I see signals coming out as I am expect them to be. sine wave is sine wave, square is square, triangle is triangle. Even single pulses are a single pulse. fft analysis and linearity plots give no reason to suspect something is wrong.

on top the DAC just sounds great. also on 44.1 my listening experiences versus 192/24 should not be interpreted, that 44.1 SQ is not good. it is still top of the bill, it is just that 192 is so sweet :cool:



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 28, 2012, 09:59:43 AM
Well, I've actually been doing some reading on sigma delta dac design to understand what the modulator step does.  

In a generic 1bit SD design,  the modulator accepts multibit data streams, and converts them to 1bit.  There is generally *always* a filter after the modulator, to remove the high frequency noise that is generated by the conversion to 1bit.

There is a trade off when performing the conversion, that needs to be understood.  As the word length is reduced, the sample rate increases.   This is pretty obvious, and I don't know why I didn't jump to that conclusion earlier.    

I've read a little bit about why oversampling is generally used in all SD designs.  Basically the oversampling pushes the data up further away from the inherent noise floor.  I haven't read how that helps any downstream processing, I haven't got that far.

I believe the PCM1794 chip is a multibit SD design.    I haven't gotten to that either, to understand what exactly the modulator does in a multibit design?  I think there are multiple 1 bit streams, but I'm not sure.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 28, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
Well, I've actually been doing some reading on sigma delta dac design to understand what the modulator step does.  

In a generic 1bit SD design,  the modulator accepts multibit data streams, and converts them to 1bit.  There is generally *always* a filter after the modulator, to remove the high frequency noise that is generated by the conversion to 1bit.

There is a trade off when performing the conversion, that needs to be understood.  As the word length is reduced, the sample rate increases.   This is pretty obvious, and I don't know why I didn't jump to that conclusion earlier.    

I've read a little bit about why oversampling is generally used in all SD designs.  Basically the oversampling pushes the data up further away from the inherent noise floor.  I haven't read how that helps any downstream processing, I haven't got that far.

I believe the PCM1794 chip is a multibit SD design.    I haven't gotten to that either, to understand what exactly the modulator does in a multibit design?  I think there are multiple 1 bit streams, but I'm not sure.


Oz,

All modern SD DACs use multibit modulators.  There are different ways of arranging the bits. There are a few white papaers around will see if I
can a few up for you. The 1794 is advanced segment which approaches the bits a different way. All of these MB SD chips work at
very high frequencies, many MHz.

FWIW I think currently the Sabre has the most advanced moodulator - and the most linear DAC.

It's not as easy to work with though as the 1794.

The other thing WRT Sabre is that you can actually change many settings, even the number of bit's. There are many hidden settings.
The reason is this: the Sabre is basically an FPGA which is very programmable. You can disable oversampling, run I2S direct,
make your own filters etc etc.

I've been playing with spice to optimise a few OP stages that will work with Sabre that don't use opamps.
There are quite a few options, some that use tubes, some transformers.

cheers

Z
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 28, 2012, 11:44:03 AM
Yeah, I was aware the Sabre can be programmed for different multibit operations, up to 8bit for 2ch I believe.

What I don't understand is whether it is 8bit PCM,  or is it 8 x 1bit streams.

Did you see the new Teac DSD dac that uses dual mono PCM1795 chips.  It's getting some good comments.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 09, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
it's always interesting to hear what other people think and discover:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mbrennwa/dddac1794-no-ordinary-dac-329/
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 14, 2013, 07:18:14 PM
o.k., here are the latest results in testing/listening to the different DDDACs..

so, if you are interested, you might want to have a look here:

http://www.audio-creative.nl/projecten/

http://www.audio-creative.nl/muziek/goto-hoornsysteem-het-beste-luidsprekersysteem-ooit/

(this is in dutch, but don't worry, you may use the google-translator)

and here

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/

enjoy
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on June 17, 2013, 03:42:24 PM
Will order mine in the next week or two...thanks Reinhardt  ;D
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on June 17, 2013, 07:36:01 PM
Will order mine in the next week or two...thanks Reinhardt  ;D
I will hear tuyens this coming weekend
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on June 18, 2013, 09:18:46 AM
I will hear tuyens this coming weekend
On your system?     I find it difficult to judge someone elses front end component, on their system, as I typically dont know their system well enough.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on June 18, 2013, 07:20:37 PM
I will hear tuyens this coming weekend
On your system?     I find it difficult to judge someone elses front end component, on their system, as I typically dont know their system well enough.
not on my system but on joness99 comparing it with 20k+ cd spinners and emm labs dac/transport combo
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on June 19, 2013, 09:12:17 AM
Cool love to hear your impressions  8)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 24, 2013, 02:51:58 AM
yes. and for those who feel interested in the combination of different output transformers, please read the latest part 5 from Triodedick here:

http://www.audio-creative.nl/hifi/dddac-1794-nos-diy-dac-deel-5/

enjoy

and just in case, that you might want to get it in your mother tongue, don't forget the google translater
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on June 24, 2013, 09:18:46 PM
Cool love to hear your impressions  8)
Tuyen never showed he had family business to attend.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on June 26, 2013, 07:42:17 PM
Bugger, oh well maybe next time Mario...I'm really keen on hearing what you think of it. My concern is that it might be a tad dry and not as rich or liquid as 1541/1543 chips with valve outputs and vintage chokes.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on June 26, 2013, 08:14:49 PM
Bugger, oh well maybe next time Mario...I'm really keen on hearing what you think of it. My concern is that it might be a tad dry and not as rich or liquid as 1541/1543 chips with valve outputs and vintage chokes.
Buy one and try it they dont cost much
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on June 26, 2013, 09:06:51 PM
I own 2 devices with the 1794 chip in it.   I'm sure I am not hearing the best out of it.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on June 26, 2013, 09:58:58 PM
Bugger, oh well maybe next time Mario...I'm really keen on hearing what you think of it. My concern is that it might be a tad dry and not as rich or liquid as 1541/1543 chips with valve outputs and vintage chokes.
Buy one and try it they dont cost much

Yep will order it soon...keen to hear what it can do.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on June 26, 2013, 10:37:21 PM
Bugger, oh well maybe next time Mario...I'm really keen on hearing what you think of it. My concern is that it might be a tad dry and not as rich or liquid as 1541/1543 chips with valve outputs and vintage chokes.
Buy one and try it they dont cost much

Yep will order it soon...keen to hear what it can do.
you can always add a valve output stage and tweak it until it looses digital signature
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: springcreek on June 27, 2013, 06:43:22 AM
My thoughts exactly
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 13, 2013, 04:12:06 AM
well, to enlarge the knowledge in ameliorating the sound in digital stream this might perhaps be of interest:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/09/reinhards-new-essay-about-iso-usb-and.html

(http://i42.tinypic.com/x3ccj.jpg)

this is Klaus mounting all "things" together:
1. top left: DDDAC1794 NOS DAC with one deck, i.e. two chips
2. top right: my DDDAC1543 with 120 chips
3. below left: my (Bernd's) controlled power supply for both of the DACs
4. below right: the new controlled power supply for external 5 Volt instead of the - as we now definitely know - really crappy 5 Volt delivered within the USB-cable


(http://i41.tinypic.com/9u918m.jpg)

here testing the new DDDAC1794 NOS DAC with one deck against 4 decks...

(http://i43.tinypic.com/eh56o.jpg)

and here the "new" connection with external 5 Volt power supply..


(http://i41.tinypic.com/2lc65gh.jpg)


the results are indeed spectacular...

and what did we learn ? Again, and again...?

The way to go is not to cure the symptom but to eliminate the cause !!!



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on November 19, 2013, 11:54:07 PM
I have heard this dac twice.................
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on December 05, 2013, 09:11:27 AM
Some say eliminating the cause, is to do away with a pc source.

Personally, I'm not sure about that.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on December 05, 2013, 07:06:48 PM
Some say eliminating the cause, is to do away with a pc source.

Personally, I'm not sure about that.
Its good no cigar poor PRAT poor timbre and tonality i would pay $500 max long way to go to be a killer
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on December 05, 2013, 09:26:46 PM
Like many things, IMV brilliance is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration so getting anything just right takes a long time and dedication.  I would not write off any dac in its earlyish gestation period, things will either click into place or not.  :-X
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on December 06, 2013, 10:31:01 AM
Like many things, IMV brilliance is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration so getting anything just right takes a long time and dedication.  I would not write off any dac in its earlyish gestation period, things will either click into place or not.  :-X
V

I think in this case, for ultimate performance best option is decide how many dacs you want to run in parallel, for example 2 x 1974's / mono mode per channel (4 dacs tot)
and do a dedicated board for that configuration.

This way it can be better optimised from the get go WRT layout, bypassing etc.

The big issue with all these high speed DS dacs is the layout / RF noise control needs to be much tighter than a lazy old 1541.

So there were many lessons learnt with development of Killer DAC, to port those strategies to a high speed DS DAC requires
some innovative thinking due to the higher speed requirements. I think it can be done though.

It's a good effort though, there's no doubt.

Z
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 07, 2013, 11:15:11 PM
hmmmhh, this is partly not topic, but as exactly "this" source was "the" theme of "that" session, I found "this" place here to be just right... (although on the other hand a topic of WE severely would be worth a thread of its own)

well, at the last meeting in Metz (France) in Octobre at André's place via Jean Hiraga we (Klaus, Bernd and me) got to know for the first time part of the famous WE15a/16a/mono/stereo-gang of Paris, as there are: Jean Hiraga himself, Bénédicte Plouvier, Julien Sullerot, Tim Gurney and André of course...

as you might already know these freaks are regularly part of the European Triode Festival (ETF) in Northern France once a year, where the HiFi-DIY-aficionados from practically around the globe come together and present their latest creations and ameliorations in HiFi, and members of the famous "mélaudio"-site in France (melaudio is the abbreviation and addition of "mélomanes" (which means something like "ambitious music lovers") and "audiophiles"...

http://www.melaudia.net/

Tim Gurney has his own site writing in detail of what's going on within his/their circles

http://audio16.wordpress.com/

http://audio16.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/western-electric-16a-1932-patent-1853955/?relatedposts_exclude=1999

http://audio16.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/hanging-your-horns-2/?relatedposts_exclude=1999

http://audio16.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/emt-927-r80-the-bearing-and-platter-size-matters-8/

Tim is a real tube and vinyl aficionado and DIYer driving quality to the ultimate in detail - as is Andrè... using EMT 927 turntable with EMT TSD15, Western Electric Amps and WE15A/WE16A speakers... please have a look at his several youtube videos, for example these ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ9ivsBGOXc&hd=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpG2Ashh2ps&hd=1

and there are more...

and the thread regarding WE on lencoheaven regarding that matter might be of interest as well

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=7616.0

regarding the results of digital stream let me quote Tim from here:

http://audio16.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/horns-from-1926-and-digital-source-from-21st-century/

"And….well I got the hardware and installed the dcs elgar plus to my Emt 981 that has a word clock in and all better aes digital out…marvellous…just plain fantastic!"

http://audio16.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/mixing-digitals-and-vintage-in-an-extreme-basement/

and after our listening session at André's:

http://audio16.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/mixing-digitals-and-vintage-in-an-extreme-basement/?relatedposts_exclude=1999

"The digital era can blend with the vintage horns in quite an astounding way(...)"
But here we have exterme DAC construction….comared to the dCS elgar plus driven by TEAC drive…"

I cannot help but from what I understood so far they still might have to fully "discover" (like us) the whole world of the one and only "really bit-perfect" ripped (ISO, DFF) and played back music out of computer's own RAM (and  n o  t  from any harddrive or USB-stick and  n o t  only the ones from transcodes of which the net is overflowing...)

Unfortunately I could not find a single word about the results in detail when we changed from the TEAC DC50/dCS Elgar-DAC-combination to the DDDAC1794 with four decks with controlled power supplies for 12 and 5 Volt.. exactly that what the session was all about and what Jean Hiraga especially wanted to find out before his trip to Japan...

...well., for those who might be interested in these points there is a full report coming soon about that event on Stephano's site... so you might want to have a look there...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on December 14, 2013, 12:12:29 PM
Thank you for this post, it is very informative; the hobby of Kings - WE. :-*

Lots of great links, I have used a portion of my life enjoying them.  Most folk will never get exposed to this level of audio as they are too brain washed by the Audio comics which are only designed to sell more whiter than white crap audio.  Whilst I can say I have some field coil drivers and big horns I have yet to migrate to the likes of 16A's but who knows, maybe funds will allow.  I do remember 40+ years ago visiting our local cinema and hearing large horns (Altecs) thereafter being ruined for life with an audio affliction as a result of chasing that huge clean clear sound!

Keep these posts coming, I am impressed.  Vive la France. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
V ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: hedalfa on December 14, 2013, 07:04:49 PM
'...Too brain washed by the Audio comics' :( :( :( :( :(

brilliant phrase vitavox which is sadly :-[ all to true. Much of the advice given out is leads one down the garden path to nowhere and may clean out the bank account in the process.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 14, 2013, 10:56:13 PM
"...being ruined for life with an audio affliction as a result of chasing that huge clean clear sound!"

yes, that brings it to the point... same with us here... some three years ago, when listening to Klaus's system - when the DDDAC-theme was just in the beginning - Jean told us already (I do not want to become indiscreet, but I think it is justified in this case - so Jean please pardon me) - after some 5 hours sitting and listening in the sweet spot nailed down like a "hare" - that it was "perfect" and "incredible" - when you listen to Klaus's system for the first time it might be like that, but at that time I was still not yet totally convinced becaue of being much longer used to "that" sound and mine, but with the latest results finally I am... (yes, I know there is always something to "ameliorate", and we will do) - with what "ingredients" and "adjustments" will appear within my report on Stefano's site rather soon - he has it now already for about two weeks, but not yet mounted - presumably because he wants "to add" something...

"Keep these posts coming..." yes, will do, and for those who cannot "wait" (like me), here is some still unfinished report and overview of André's HiFi museum from Stefano himself:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/10/a-very-musical-weekend-hopkinsons-smith.html

enjoy...



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 16, 2013, 03:57:42 AM
o.k., here is the report:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/12/reinhards-essay-is-it-possible-to.html

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 30, 2013, 09:22:41 AM
...this is the very first "finished" and "perfectly" running DDDAC1794 with more than four decks, i.e. eight decks, Doede's "personal prototype", with some smaller bug fixes, some more implementations and adjustments, especially a new basic board which finally allows the stacking of more than 4 decks which now run without problems (next time we will test out 16 boards, just to experience if the ameliorations in sound equal or are comparable to those of the DDDAC1543 with multiple chips), two controlled power supplies for 5 and 12 Volt, two Sowter transformers   s i d e   b y   s i d e   next to the Mundorf silver-oil capacitors, ready to be selected and compared one against the other, a new 12 step output level control, the knob on the picture to the left in front...

(http://i43.tinypic.com/15g2gy0.jpg)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/10cvsw4.jpg)

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1zmi9op.jpg)

(http://i40.tinypic.com/10fncxf.jpg)

how it sounds ? Once listened, there is - for me - definitely no way back..

I just ordered my next four decks when Doede was with us at Klaus's and he told me that although it is not yet ready, he has already orders, yes, from your country but as well from around the globe...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 03, 2014, 04:40:04 AM

Closer to the truth (part 1)...


on 28th we had another meeting at Klaus's. No, not a Carneval-session that maybe others are used to with playing whatever music just for fun, but a really scientific session with much research and lots and lots and lots of things to solder and experiment and try out and test and measure and listen to on "our" home-made reference-system to ultimately find out what to do and "where" to "go" (and we definitely found out):

(http://i40.tinypic.com/sffolc.jpg)

Although sessions like this normally are strictly "closed" and absolutely private, destined only for research and testing purposes (it was not one of those that we have from time to time just for our music pleasure), we had two very kind and interested and well knowing guests, we had not "twogoodears", we had twice "good ears" from France, for some two hours or so, Raoul and Dominique.

 
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2agpy6p.jpg)

(from left to right: Raoul, Domnique and Klaus)

Raoul is very well known within the inner high and highest end HiFi-circles in France. He is the founder of the long time legendary french audio club, "mélaudio". Dominique, who cared for Raoul while in Germany and drove him to Klaus's, is another long time experienced HiFi-aficionado and long time member of the mélaudio club as well... If you want to read more about Raoul and other members of this club in France, feel free to have a look here:

http://www.melaudia.net/

As I told: To have guests on this kind of our meetings is an absolute exception. Indeed. Normally, when testing, we do not accept any visitors. No, just to get it right, we do have nothing against external visitors if they are really interested, but even if they remain calm, in situations like this they detract us from that what we really want to do, and because of the unfortunately ever so limited time of Doede Douma we decided to keep the circle as narrow and the research as strict as possible to get the most results out of it. And we feel always very happy to share our results on "friendly" sites, for example here

http://www.dddac.com/

or on the killerdac-site

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=842.0

And to keep it "privatissime" proves just to be right. And it was only because Jean Hiraga heavily and repeatedly insisted on me in "inviting" Raoul for this session, so that Klaus and me finally gave up our resistence and allowed his visit... who ever could lastly resist to that freak called Jean?

Well, although I did not know Raoul personally (he nevertheless is rather well known to me via the net) I have read and been told that Raoul is not at all a newbee, not at all new to the theme, to "our" theme, i.e. he is used to all kind of old and new high and highest end - and here especially - horn-systems, even multi-amped, from Western Electric, Goto, Altec, ALE, Coral.... so, he has a long time experience in audio, especially regarding high efficiency horn speakers.

Right from the beginning, after having founded mélaudio years ago, Raoul had the possibility to visit and listen to many of the highest end system that are partly described on his site, for example just to name the splendid system of Marcel Roggéro which Klaus and me had already the pleasure to experience in 2003...
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/eff9qa.jpg)

if you want to check out for more or Marcel's system (a real hard core long time labour of love), please go here:

http://www.melaudia.net/sud1006-0301.php

But even though Raoul has already had the opportunity to listen to different kinds of Goto-systems for several times, from what I was told he didn't have - till now - the possibility to listen to a well optimized Goto-system like Klaus's which is really much different and ultra performant...

...well, to make it short, after having listened for some two hours or so (it was just an intermezzo here with us, they primarily had other HiFi-obligations on this very day in the area of Cologne) to their own reference recordings with very "tricky" tonalities (they know very well their "testing" tones and sequencies) - but they still are used to listen to CD and not "perfectly" ripped music from harddrive, which is much much better, but still not yet "bit perfect"...) - for example Tsuyoshi Yamamoto - Misty (Three Blind Mice)...
 
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2d13j2c.jpg)

...and "blues down deep" - The songs of Janis Joplin...
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/213g7j8.jpg)

...and Michel Jonasz - la fabuleuse histoire du swing, 2 CD
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2h5o0mu.jpg)

...they both like a flash of lightning jumped out of their seats, laughing deeply from the bottom of their souls, luckily and happily and full of joy, with both thumbs doubled up which they repeatedly shook into the sky when Klaus asked them about their listening impressions... well, a picture tells more than thousand words, although there was no difficulty in understanding each other...

...and of course, right after our guests had left we concentrated on our themes: Doede's absolutely newest developments regarding his completely mounted and assembled DDDAC1794 with 8 decks... he told me that he will put the results of all of his researches and measurements onto his site in the days to come, so if you like, keep having a look over there... (of course we didn't miss to show and explain all these things to our guests and had them listen to exactly that...)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/e6pnvk.jpg)

front view: the "new", "fully" assemled DDDAC1794 in all its glory
 
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2nvqww7.jpg)

top view: the "new", "fully" assemled DDDAC1794 in all its glory

...although this is the very first "finished" and "perfectly" running DDDAC1794 with more than four decks, i.e. eight decks, Doede's "personal prototype", with some smaller bug fixes, some more implementations and adjustments, especially a new basic board which finally allows the stacking of more than 4 decks which now run without problems (next time we will test out 16 boards, just to experience if the ameliorations in sound equal or are comparable to those of the DDDAC1543 with multiple chips), two controlled power supplies for 5 and 12 Volt, two Sowter transformers   s i d e   b y   s i d e   next to the Mundorf silver-oil capacitors, ready to be selected and compared one against the other, a new 12 step output level control, the knob on the picture to the left in front...
 
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2eg7ipi.jpg)

...there are already quite some orders from Australia and elsewhere around the globe so that I urgently asked Doede for not being "the last one" being delivered into that row with upgrading my DDDAC1794 from the "Quadriga" four deck to the "Octopus" with eight decks... and I am glad that he promised, although this all will last at least till mid of february, because in January he is off for the U.S.A...

to be continued with part 2: testings and results


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 03, 2014, 04:49:33 AM
Closer to the truth, part 2

tests and results


so, what did we do then? what was this session all about?

well, we had quite a nice program to absolve...

1. we tested the new SPDIF, which Doede has added now to his new version of his DDDAC1794 with 8 decks "against" the same with USB, you have just to switch and you have an immediate A : B comparison... (see pictures)

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2dufb52.jpg)

the basic platform is now quite a lot larger as the former one, so that it is able to receive the additional SPDIF-section in front (bottom right the 5 Volt controlled power supply connection)...
 
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2cn7h3o.jpg)

and the "Balanced Analog Outputs" on the rear side

(http://i43.tinypic.com/hve59h.jpg)

Well, I think it is alright to say that since the beginning of this year we are now quite used to the sound of the DDDAC1794 with 1 deck and 4 decks, both with controlled power supplies for 5 Volt and 12 Volt, we "think" we have it "in the ear"... and so it was rather "easy" for us to compare both SPDIF and USB now directly with the new DDDAC1794 with eight decks, and to compare in a fair way, and we always want to remain "fair" resp. "neutral"... why? to get out the most for us...

yes, and the results were that way that the SPDIF sounds really pretty fine, clearly the best that I have heard so far, but, as we all know, the results are inevitably more or less combined and integrated "error correction", and for that reason alone the reproduction via hard drive and USB is clearly superior. But I have to ask: Do high- and highest end aficionados really still listen to CD? I really do hope that not... (I use it only for ripping purposes)...

anyway, one can say, with SPDIF the whole sound is some sort of "rounder", a little more compressed, more "sticked" together, while USB (we checked it out with MAC Mini, Audirvana Plus and SilverLine USB-cable)...

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2rek0h0.jpg)

...has much much less distortion, much more preciseness, more definition, more openness, it sounds easier, airier, more relaxed, much less "brain deranging", yes, you may say: music in a floating style... this is simply the way we want to listen to music...

2. the second test concentrated on the comparison of different USB-cables. And we had three of them. Well, you know presumably better than me what the fuss is all about with all those different USB-cables in copper, silver and whatever, reaching in price from some € up to 5.000 €/meter (as to be seen on the last Munich audio fair). And at the moment still everybody has to use an USB-cable if one wants to reproduce music via PC/MAC > hard drive > USB-cable > DAC.

I told you already in my last report that the power supply within the USB-cables is really "crap", presumably the worst that you ever get delivered. And to me the changing of USB-cables now indeed appears comparable to the changing of the pick-ups in the vinyl-area: It is only more or less curing the symptom but not erasing the cause, to make it short, in both cases it is "tayloring to taste".

And we have proven that it is exactly like that - at least in the digital area. Not only Bernd but as well Doede, they both have developed controlled power supplies for 12 Volt  a n d  for 5 Volt especially for that purpose: to get rid of exactly that 5 Volt power supply which is delivered within the USB-cable from PC and/or MAC...
 
(http://i44.tinypic.com/4kybs5.jpg)

if you want to read more about controlled power in detail and why they are so important for our sound, have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_power_supplies.html

...and the results in the music reproduction show more than dramatically. The positive amelioration effects in sound indeed are that great, that nobody could have imagined or anticipated them in advance. So, for us it is no longer a question, within one of the next steps of development we want to get completely rid of this USB-norm, which is "good" for computer-purposes, but not for our beloved HiFi.

And as we now definitely do know that, we now consequently wanted to find out how different USB-cables "behave" in sound, when they no longer transport the 5 Volt from PC/MAC but only the digital signal and nothing else, i.e. when the DDDAC1794 is externally fed with a separate 5 Volt controlled power supply, and then we wanted to compare the results to each other...

Now, how many and what cables did we have? Well, there were three. The first one was a discovery of Triode Dick

http://www.triodedick.com/

and his new site

http://www.audio-creative.nl/

who has been with us for the first time at the end of last year and who has it in use for quite some time, as does Doede, the second one is the Kimber Silver USB-cable that Klaus and I very contentfully use (this was not our idea, the recommendation came from the computeraudio-site, and we just tried out), and the third one, just to give us an impression "where" we are, was a very simple 3 meter basic no-name USB-cable.

O.k., to bring it to the point: our impression was that all the so called "differences" which are said to the USB-cables are still "there", but to a much much smaller extent, so to say, the importance of an USB-cable tends to be reduced to become rather neglectable! The SilverLine was light, bright, transparent, perhaps just a little too defined and to "pointed" in the highs (maybe some systems need exactly that). The Kimber Silver was more "neutral", less spectacular, less aggressiv, more retained, to my ears simply more "natural". And the 3 meter no-name USB-cable was quite surprising, even astonishing, it was good, broader, it delivered really fine upper frequencies, but (unfortunately) the bass was more (too) pronounced.

Nevertheless all the cables "gain" considerably when they are not "misused" to transport (crappy) 5 Volt. In 2014 we will see what happens when we quit USB completely and use RG58 cable and BNC-connectors directly from motherboard to the DDDAC1794 without the - at the moment - still inevitable plug and connector interruptions on the back of the PC/MAC ...I hardly can wait for that...

ah, I nearly forgot, we did this test with PC and the JRiver Media Center program:
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/15flmrc.jpg)

3. The third test that interested us very much was the Sowter transformers "against" the Mundorf silver oil capacitors. If you have them installed, you are able to choose simply by changing the cables. To the left the two Sowters (now with a 12 step loudness attenuator), and to the right the Mundorfs...
 
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2n08wp4.jpg)

The Sowters were absolutely the clear winners for Bernd and Doede. Contrarily Klaus was rather restrained. And for me the Mundorfs may stay exactly as they are. They are simply perfect. Perhaps it is ultimatively a matter of personal taste. I am (for the second time) indeed still not yet really quite sure about it. I will have the possibility to test it out further in detail when Doede in January will be in the U.S.A. and when we will have this marvellous DDDAC1794 here for us alone to test it within a longer period (which I think in this case is necessary)...

to be continued...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 03, 2014, 04:53:01 AM
Closer to the truth, part 3

tests and results

well, half of the day had already "gone" after having "hosted" our french guests, Raoul and Dominique, and after having finished our first three tests. Although I have to admit that listening and experimenting with music in such a sublime surrounding...
 
(http://i42.tinypic.com/1zcfs02.jpg)

to the left: Bernd; to the right: Doede - just having prepared the next test to begin and now moving to their seats curious about that what would happen...

...never ever appears some sort of boring to me, it is just the opposite, I feel it to be downright "timeless", and indeed all participants regularly agree that time really does not seem to play any significant role during all our experiments, because it is always about gathering experiences and sharing so much fun and joy and especially delight when things finally work out that fine for us...

4. So, we started our next test, and yes, this topic is one of the most interesting if one follows the discussions in the net: Reproduction of digital stream with PC and/or MAC. There is no excuse, at least in our group we (Klaus, Bernd and me) did not care that much about that theme in the past. Although right from the beginning we were close "followers" of the corresponding results which are generated, presented and discussed in detail here in this treasure box:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/

which indeed continuously and informatively reports on all things that happen within the digital scene. And the results become even more interesting because of all the single consumer reports. So I really like to recommend this page to all those people who are interested and like to deepen their knowledge within digital stream to be able to make qualified decisions on their own on the basis and experiences that others already have made. And this with special view on those products which are available for everybody on the market...

Presumably you all know about this seeming endlessly ongoing discussion all around the globe of what computer is best to use for digital music reproduction: PC or MAC? Well, we do, and we were all very lucky, that Doede finally had bought and configured a complete Mini-Mac with all necessary "ingredients" and brought it with him, ready to be tested. Against what? Against PC of course.

Well, ultimately it is not just a singular decision to use a PC or a MAC, there is quite a lot of "accessories" inevitably "welded" with this decision which all produce differences in sound and which simply can  n o t  be swapped against one or another: programs, drivers, apps, codecs... We have simply to face that it is always a "bundle of ingredients" more or less well harmonically (and right?) combined and adjusted that we compare here, and not just single ones so that we never ever can say, yes, this specific result is generated by that single object and not by any other, we always have an influence as a whole, although we can exchange single parts, if we are not "content"...

...even worse, in addition to that we have different digital formats and presumably different results within the ripping process: flac, ape, m4u, aiff... (at least when we have a closer look onto the amount of the generated data which are not identical but should be - at least from my understanding when ripping a single CD) that natively only play on the one or the other platform, and without further "transcodes" are just not playable on the one or the other platform.

And I tell you from my experiences within digital stream, the one fact that nerves me the most are especially these "transcodes", not only for downsampling purposes but as well to make digital "suitable" just for the other platform. I admit that I do not have much knowledge about the internal mathematical algorithms which do that and what an effect they have on our music, but I have to face that they in fact have an influence which I can clearly hear, and that I have no possibility to take any influence on.. I have to live with the fact that every change in both camps simply has an inluence on our sound, and that within the digital domain!!! I am not content with that state, and I can't get rid of the feeling that exactly that should not be the case!

Louis XIV, the sun king, once said: Gouverner moins, c'est gouverner mieux." (something like: to reign less means to reign better). And I am absolutely convinced that this sentence has become another new qualified meaning within digital music reproduction. Transcode less is better, and best is: no transcodes at all. That's what we have found out with the direct reproduction of DSD/DFF. And it proves to be just right...

So, what did we test then? Well, PC against MAC. PC with the latest foobar2000 Version 1.3 dating from 2013-12-27 with Wasapi 3.2.3 and DDDAC-Software (and later on the JRiver program which reveiled superb mids and highs but was only a little "broader" within the bass) against MAC-Mini with Audirvana Plus. See the full construction of both the MAC-Mini and the PC-Portable connected to external NAS and harddrive > DDDAC1794 with 8 decks > Sowter transformers  o  r  Mundorf Silver Oil capacitors...
 
(http://i44.tinypic.com/x5plp1.jpg)
 
(http://i43.tinypic.com/23sx3c3.jpg)

... in combination to be tested with the two Sowter transformers...
 

(http://i39.tinypic.com/262rsxt.jpg)

connected to the left...
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/5mnw3.jpg)

for more, see here: http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_output.html

...against...
 
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2w6ykgh.jpg)

...Mundorf Silver Oil capacitors... connected to the right

Yes, and what about the results? There were quite a lot of ameliorations in both camps, PC and MAC. They are indeed really incredible, but they are all of a different kind. On that super highest level it is hard to decide what ultimately may be better or even "the best". Anyway, you can calm down, both the PC and the MAC are really really superb. Although for months and months and months the discussion for example on the computeraudiophile-site from time to time favored PC and months later MAC, and then PC again, and then MAC again, so that one really got quite nervous to be able to keep up with being on the "right" side, both camps - at least at the moment - seem to have come very close together, and the differences tend to become neglectable indeed...

The main argument from Doede, who had followed and experienced especially that development - PC versus MAC - already at his home and much more than us here was: Foobar meanwhile with its newest driver has come close or reached or even to a certain extent surpassed the level of MAC, especially with its newest driver "foobar2000_v1.3.exe" which dates from 2013-12-27 and is available here for free:

http://www.foobar2000.org/getfile/7ae959042ce74b042c90cd5599f3ec6a/foobar2000_v1.3.exe

The final result to my own ears are as well very very close to "equal", and in both camps there is no tayloring to taste at all. The staggering of the arrangements of the instruments has really come to the forefront, the reproduction indeed is really "distingué", the whole stage has become "darker", there is more "seeing-through", there is more precision and definition, there even some "three-dimensional musical erotic elements" have developed, so that it ultimately may be a matter of personal taste or preference what to choose... personally I am not a "jumper", I do not jump to and fro, i.e. from MAC to PC, from PC to MAC and so on, and so I will stay with foobar (I am extremely content with that program, and it is not only me, I am used to it and especially "I have it in my ear" so to speak)...

But in the end we had and still have to ask ourselves: Well, if this what we listen to is all really "bit-perfect", and that in both camps, why are there (still) so many differences within the musical reproduction in our systems?

5. So, the next test was comparing DDDAC1794 with four decks against DDDAC1794 with eight decks.
The principle in further multiplying chips was exactly that what I had "urged" Doede to do already years ago in the beginning of the development of his DDDAC1543, where from mathematical point of view a "more" than 60 chips could not bring any "more" amelioration in sound ( 2 + 2 = 4, what more should you expect ? ), but revealed on my "pressure" to build 120 chips a sensational gain in sound and especially a not at all planned and not at all to be foreseen reduction in jitter which nobody could have expected and even more physically simply could not even exist. This was incredible!!! For more about Doede's "new" theory have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_other.html

And now with the new DDDAD1794 it was clear that right from the beginning - even against mathematical and physical "results" - Doede would try out more high resolution chips/decks as well. And so he constructed a platform on which the mounting of decks was no problem. But as it came out, there were. Unexpectedly. But those problems were exactly the poke for Doede to get rid of them. As far as I got to know him he simply cannot live with any unsolved physical problems... Doede, I really "love" you for solving exactly these "problems" and posessing the skills to do so and definitely hear the results!!!

After having realized the problems which acoustically appeared from time to time as some sort of crickling and crackling in the sound, within the last couple of months he built a completely new basic platform which now allows the stacking of more than four decks without any trouble (we still have to try out in the end how much and to what extent it goes and how much decks are "worthy" at all being stacked for our musical purposes)
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/e0ie4i.jpg)

Doede's complete DDDAC1794 with Sowter transformers and new twelve step sound level attenuator, Mundorf's silver oil capacitors and - to the right - eight decks, i.e. sixteen 1794 chips

And the listening results show how fantastic this stepping up is. With four decks you are already in HiFi-heaven. There is definitely no doubt about it. And this is terriffically-well. But with eight decks it is even more terriffically-well. The sound gets erotic. The bass is still quicker and cleaner (I love that the most), there is more "silver", the sound is more natural, and as Doede told: "one forgets to pay attention to the music being played", the deepest organ becomes a smoothness like in a real church, and the voices from females, for example from Diana Krall, gets a "breething" which sparkles down your spine and lets you think you are in bed doing... yes... right...

...not to drift away, but anyway the music out of the both, out of MAC and PC, is absolutely fluid, deeply relaxing and really wonderful to listen to... aaaahhh, what a joy, and what a level in music reproduction... this is genious !!!

6. The next test concentrated on the reproduction of SACD, i.e. PCM and ISO/DFF. We did that with quite an enormous and different kind of sources, MFSL UDSACD, Analogue Records SACDs from Steve Hoffman... not only the best of the best sources but all which we can lay our hands upon...

...and the result is simple: PCM is good, without a doubt, but ISO/DFF is better, without two doubts. Much more better. This is the one and only "bit-perfect" source that we can get, if we know how to create a perfect PS3-rip, which is not that easy. You will have to use different sort of programs and know "how" to use them to get it just right.

We have to keep in mind that that what we normally "get" is not the pure PCM from the master in the studio, what we "get" is in the one or other way some sort of downsampled with a cut-off data-result, and so is the music then: cut-off... but if the sources are "right", then we get the "right" sound, so we have to pay strong attention on that what we play and not only "judge" how "bad" the sound is when the source is not "right"...

...and of course Doede had some hard core test material not only with highest resolution with him, for example a collection of the favorite tunes of the members of stereoplay's testing crew, and the quality showed (really recommended)
 
(http://i44.tinypic.com/fkmkv4.jpg)

7. I couldn't leave it out, but the next test was "my" personal reference-test: PC > Foobar2000 > RAM > DDDAC1794 with 8 decks and controlled power supply for 5 and 12 Volt with Dead Can Dance - Into The Labyrinth (1993) (2008) 4AD, MFSL SACD SAD 2711 [ISO]
 
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2cqe04o.jpg)

The reproduction of this SACD with native ISO/DFF shows it clearly to me: the industry still does not deliver to us that what is on the master recording, they still "betray" us with more or less downsampling, hindering the existing amount of data to come to our ears. And the programs that we have to use for reproducing our music still add some "muddying" to our sound and they are not - what they ultimately should be - "identically" clear. I told already, the way to go for us is: The less influence in digital the better the sound. Then you are able to reach the purest delight. It makes much more sense and brings much better results to invest in proper controlled power supply than in USB-cables. With controlled power supply even a totally mediocre USB-cable sounds first rate, without a doubt. To feed your digital reproduction with external controlled 5 Volt supply (after 12 Volt) is the most important step of all.

8. Measurements. Of course Doede has not only "superb" ears which are regularly "educated" in life-performances, to "prove" the results further he also did some measurements, this time especially regarding the sound pressure at Klaus's. And he did this just for fun, not for showing-off. As you might know usually we are sitting in some 8-10 m distance from the opening mouths of the horns, where we are able to really "hear" some 30 cycles and even less as tones and not just as sound pressure on our stomachs. Here are the results:
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/efqxhh.jpg)

 
(http://i39.tinypic.com/jzfwph.jpg)

Measured in ten meters distance the sound pressure is 112 dB over the whole frequency range (and then Klaus's system is still not fully pumped up), and the deepest bass measured by Doede was 16 Hertz with still some very very respectable 75 dB !!! So, an organ - I cannot help myself - sounds like that what we ever wanted: an organ !!!
 
(http://i39.tinypic.com/5347ep.jpg)

9. The last test was of a different kind. As you might know, I am a very passionate and longest user of the DDDAC1543 MKII with 120 chips. As is meanwhile Jean Hiraga himself.

http://www.dddac.de/start.html

Because of the really dramatic gain in sound with the controlled 5 Volt power supply with the DDDAC1794 I wanted to have exactly that with my DDDAC1543 MK II with 120 chips. But this did not work. Why? Because the former entry of the DAC cannot handle the import of external 5 Volt. So I asked Doede for a solution. And - of course - he had one. And he had brought it with him here to our meeting. And it looks like this:
 
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2nkuv53.jpg)

this is actually Klaus's DDDAC1543 with 60 chips (mine still has to be connected)
 
(http://i43.tinypic.com/iwulop.jpg)

On top to the left is the new (red) entry modul for the DDDAC1543 capable of handling 5 Volt from external controlled power supply. And the DDDAC1543 is now as well capable of playing high resolution files up to 24 bit 96 kHz with the last 8 bit cut off, but it plays...
 
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2hyz0uv.jpg)

...and it is shown within foobar that and how it works, the original source with 24 bit 176 kHz played with 24 bit 88200 Hz over the 16 bit DDDAD1543 !!!

and this is the way how to install it:
 
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2h6y87m.jpg)

.. and with what a mindblowing quality! Not only with the DDDAC1794 but as well with this 16 bit version there is a dramatic gain in sound quality, it is indeed that good, that immediately a german proverb came to my mind when you are very enthusiastic about something, perhaps "over-"enthusiastic (for which I have been already "accused" being so on a "very friendly" tracker - but exactly that really doesn't matter: it is always the result that counts) which is translated something like this (I hope you get the sense: "I threw myself into the corner"...

...and what a result that is: majestic, magic, "perfect", yes, "perfect"... although we know that there are always things to ameliorate on which we will report on when they are done...

Happy New Year to you all...

...nd don't forget: 2014 will be THE year of the "Music Computer"!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 08, 2014, 08:36:14 AM
to the managers of this site:

could you please check the possibilities for interested DIYers to have access to your site? they send me this:

(http://i39.tinypic.com/10d5ev9.jpg)

and to Doede as well, and complain not to be allowed to enter? I can not believe that this is the policy here?

please tell me
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on January 08, 2014, 05:00:28 PM
rhlauranna. We had to close it because of the spammers. I will open it now.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on January 08, 2014, 09:19:50 PM
rhlauranna. I have to close it again, Two many spammers we are going to upgrade the software.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on January 08, 2014, 10:13:16 PM
rhlauranna, perhaps you could be a mediator between your friends and the admin. Get them to be a member so that they can get a full view of the forum. Let the admin know the details and I'm sure they can work on this.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on January 08, 2014, 11:17:34 PM
rhlauranna I can register your friends instantly. Just pm me
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 08, 2014, 11:41:51 PM
thanks for all your responses... I have passed them on here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-88.html

so, if you like, there are indeed - as Doede confirmed - some really ambitious and ingenious DIYers over there who have many a good idea and are pushing things further as well with tubes and caps and...

enjoy...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on January 09, 2014, 07:28:43 AM
Just confirming Stevens earlier post,  the intention is definitely to have an open forum for anyone to read, and for anyone to join and contribute.

The forum version we are on appears to have some exploits where spammers can attack the forum, when we turn on anonymous read access.

We're investigating an upgrade to the forum software, to fix this. But for the time being, we need to turn off anonymous access.   

We're happy to manually register people in the interim.  No problem.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 18, 2014, 10:42:56 PM
there is some interesting discussion about optimizing the interna of the computer here:

http://www.highend-audiopc.com/reviews.html

and here is some discussion:

http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/release-of-new-windows-server-2012-audiophile-core-edition-this-weekend/page-11/#p14895

are there any practical experiences out there ??
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 29, 2014, 08:21:55 AM
closer to the truth, part 4

(the full report may now be seen/read as well on Stefano's site

http://twogoodears.blogspot.it/2014/01/a-new-reinhard-huttenburgs-review.html

as he finally managed to get the pictures imported...)

well, latest with the new assembly of the DDDAC1794 we are now able to precisely generate frequencies which come for example from instruments like this and which very heavily define the whole sound in any system, the transport and the reproducion of those are other chapters...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/5wths.jpg)
 
to give you an impression of what changes now simply from measurements done all at 1.000 cycles (an "easy" frequency, where everywhere in electronics the world is totally "o.k." and just "fine", and not an extreme one where the set definitely has to show what it is really capable of, but already here the differences are very very obvious), please have a look at this picture which I got from Klaus just the other day showing Decca London Jubilee pick-up and Philips LHH 1000 CD Player... these "insufficiencies" and "imponderabilities" will presumably "shock" many a vinyl-aficionado and "normal" CD-player reproducers ... and I can assure you: this is not only viewable (as is the difference from HDTV to Ultra HDTV), but precisely listenable at the same "level"...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/13ydt08.jpg)
 
and here are the fantastic results of Doede's genious masterpiece which speak for themselves at 1.000 cycles

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1zx3vrs.gif)
 
and at 20 cycles (and this is indeed even more incredible!!!)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2946gpv.gif)
 
...so, this is as close to "perfection" as it gets, anyway - no matter if analogue or digital, tube or transistor or whatever...

...and it is rather simple: if you do not have your sources/squares like this right in the beginning, you will not be able to amplify and reproduce and listen to exactly this, so, one of the biggest secrets in HiFi is revealed: you have to possess and you must be able to generate a "perfect" input...

for more, have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html


and now for quite some time we found out that we are not alone...

oooohhhhh, how I do enjoy passionate DIYers who in the first line do not preach how "friendly" they are and others should be, but who possess the know-how as well as the skills to whip the really relevant developments further and bring them to the point or at least undertake everything to get there and are capable of explaining and expressing the ameliorating differences... (especially those "things" where Doede tells that he already very much would have liked to try them all out but because of lack of time was not yet able to...)

...they are rare those DIYers, but they are out there, and it is a great pleasure to get to know them.. well, one of those rare guys is "Supersurfer", from the Netherlands, that I happened to get to know rather short time ago on this site:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-99.html

...by the way, this is  t h e  site where Doede personally takes care for all the DIYers problems and questions regarding his DDDACs, and it is a real treasure box to get to know about the developments and experiences which others have made with the same "product" developing with different parts into different directions and levels...

as you all know at the moment we concentrate on digital streaming via our DDDACs, i.e. version 1543 for 16 Bit, and version 1794 for 24 Bit.. and within this development, which by now lasts for about three till four years, we thought having come rather far and being on top of the iceberg...

...but to my greatest delight I discovered "Supersurfer" being still further ahead than us, having already experimented and performed those things that I still am dreaming of and which hopefully will lead to a cooperation...

now you presumably want to know, what this is all about?

Well, the first "thing" that differs from our DAC constructions here is the implementation of so-called "Shunt-regulators"...

for more information have a look here:

http://www.tentlabs.com/Components/cdupgrade/shunt/index.html

As far as I can see "Supersurfer" uses four of them for each deck. And I like to quote him regarding his results because I have no doubt that it is exactly like that; "The tent shunts do make a big difference in openness, dynamics and low level detail. I am very satisfied with my 4 decks with 16 shunts." O.K. And how does that look like? Well, like this:

(Supersurfer: please pardon, when using your own pictures, but I think it is that important, that it is justified... thanks)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/29nt3ye.jpg)
 
the DDDAC1794 with two decks and the small green plates (the Shunt-regulators)
and the view from the top

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ppfwwg.jpg)
 
the second big "thing" is the implementation of an Ultra CompactFlash Disk with 30 MB/s and a capacity of 8 GB working in nanoseconds and not in milliseconds... to be seen on the bottom left of the picture, the small red-grey square... I told you already elsewhere that reproducing digital stream from PC's own RAM - as well in nanoseconds - was one of the greatest discovery in sound amelioration...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ngeffa.jpg)
 
(Tuyen: if you should read this, you directed me to a japanese (?) site a year ago or so, where they already had something like this in use, in combination with three super-big transformors - at that time I found it something like too much dimensioned and "ridiculous", but now we know exactly why this is right - and a studio-loudness-level-attenuator, which all seemed utopian and miles ahead of us... would you please indicate again what site that was ? Thanks... why? because time has come for us to concentrate exactly on the further development of the interna of our PCs... and they seem to have made already very interesting and thrilling progresses on which we possibly can lean on...)

...and yet another very spectacular and very astonishing proceed is the undressing of the output caps, i.e. the de-isolation and their newly disguising with (normal?) paper and wooden surrounding said by "Supersurfer" being much "better" in sound, much more open and much more dynamic...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/29zokdz.jpg)
 
wow, wow, wow, I am really not that easily to convince, and till this moment I do not have tried this all out, but all this seems to make big sense and me really nervous, so, we will see...
 
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2mw88sx.jpg)

...and this is "Supersurfer's" actual setup of "his" DDDAC1794 Quadriga (i.e. four decks):

"- 4 dac boards

- modified on board shunt regulators (Tent labs), 16 in total

- Audio Note Tantalum resistors

- salas shunt regulators for the dac and wave IO

- balanced connection to input transformer of my tube amps (audio consulting silver volume transformers)

- alix computer board with mpd pup software and linear power supply (tried raspberry pi first but it is not powerfull enough)

- streaming from a NAS

- all controlled with Mpad ipad interface (Super Cool and easy!)"

...and if you should like to read (not only) "Supersurfer's" statement about his/Doede's DAC, please feel free to read here, # 602:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-61.html#post3706675

What ideas! What plans! What an execution! And without having listened to, what a delight to look at first sight..

Bravo !!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192 part 1
Post by: rhlauranna on February 18, 2014, 10:07:37 AM
"The" day of the days in HiFi-history...

well, not to exaggerate all the time in order not to become untrustworthy, I thought for myself in the past how to describe all our discoveries the best way, most neutral, the situation as is actually, not more but also not less, and the phrase "closer to the truth..." came to my mind, me at that time not yet really knowing but more longing for what "the truth" lastly is in reality...

and for quite some time I felt that this was a good approach for that what we are doing here now for about four years and that it would perfectly fit for the description of our ambitions...

but, now, exactly since 15th february 2014, things not only have reached a new level, they have reached "the truth" (an asymptotic process of course, but very close in completely reaching), so please, bear with me in the future when I am talking about "reaching the truth...", with all scientific progresses that have been reached so far, this now indeed is "more" realistic than "closer to the truth..."

but let me tell you the story one by one...

first, who were all the participants?

(http://i60.tinypic.com/nzr8cm.jpg)

from left to right: me, Thomas Nöltner, Bernd Wieland (like the real champion with one of his feet on his/my controlled power supply for 5 and 12 Volt), Doede Douma, Klaus Speth, Jean Hiraga, Bruno Plouvier, Prof. Shii, Dirk Wunderlich

so, as you might know the usual "mad" followers are:

1. Jean Hiraga (who really needs no introduction, but nowadays has become an ultra close follower of all the things that we do here and the stuff that we build for ourselves and which the industry not at all seems to be interested in... having begun to build up his "own" stuff regarding digital streaming with a new power supply for the (DD)DAC(s) which of course he had brought with him for testing purposes

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2vxqatu.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/huf0k1.jpg)

top view of the new Jean Hiraga power supply for 5 and 12 Volt

(http://i60.tinypic.com/b9afrc.jpg)

front view of the new Jean Hiraga power supply for 5 and 12 Volt

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1eb2bq.jpg)

and the new transformer on Jean's power supply with specifications, which Bernd very much admired...

2. Doede Douma, meanwhile hopefully known to you all and to be seen and read on his two sites:

DDDAC 1794 NOS DAC - Non Oversampling DAC with PCM1794 - no digital filter - modular design DIY DAC for high resolution audio 192/24 192kHz 24bit (http://www.dddac.com/)

and

DDDAC 2000 (http://www.dddac.de/start.html)

3. Klaus of course, and Moni, his wife, our generous hosts, who cared for our all being well... thanks a ton for all your hospitality, delicious choucroute with freshly mashed potatoes, tasty chicken soup, sausages (Jean brought some with him from France as well), eggs, baguettes and all kinds of drinks like beer, limo, water, Coca-Cola...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2vrsi93.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/mlqz3b.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2sb1q0x.jpg)

...and yes, of course, we all know: nobody drinks Coca-Cola, but after the session more than two cases with 20 bottles à 0,33 ltr. each had delighted all the "hard working" listeners... and to what delight: see picture...

4. Bernd, the great guru who first developed controlled power supplies and other specialities and who brought Doede on to the path with his own power supplies...

5. Jean and me, the two of us just side by side of "our ultra toys", two DDDAC1543 with 120 chips each and Bernd's and Jean's new controlled power supplies (to the left in front)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/znonyq.jpg)

and the following guests:

6. Mr Shizuang Shii, a professor of mathematics at the university in Rennes/France...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/9gym3t.jpg)

...here together with Doede, preparing the next listening test with DDDAC1543-120chips...

Prof. Shii has just got a DDDAC1794 with eight decks from Doede, and he is owner and constructor of a completely self-built highest end system from another universe... I simply have no other words for that what I have seen on some pictures...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/msixw8.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2nu6tco.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/29vktx5.jpg)

...later on I will try to show a little bit more of what that man is doing - this is incredible for me, and I would very much like to have a listen to his system perhaps one day - building his own compression drivers (!), yes, from scratch, and a power supply alone for his pre-amp with some 100 kg in weight (in words: one hundred kilograms), with embedded tubes which are normally only in use for military purposes (and which Doede of course knows very well and of which he owns two... would anybody have thought different? No, not really, or...?)

7. Bruno, from France, a friend and "collaborateur" of Jean, a very nice guy, with very very good ears - it was really big fun with him not only see him playing some imaginative air-guitar while some blues was playing, but speaking the "same" language, technically and musically - not only an intense HiFi-friend, but a friend of good eating and drinking alike, as to be seen on the photo (here cutting some french artisan sausages for the gang which Jean brought with him as a gift - and they both have much fun obviously)...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2d0kndj.jpg)

...proudly owning a DDDAC1543 with 120 chips - exactly like mine

(http://i62.tinypic.com/k3rnfc.jpg)

...but nowadays in combination with the new power supply for especially this DAC from Jean Hiraga...

8. yes, and for the first time we had two ambitious guys out of the south-german HiFi-fan-camp as our guests: Thomas Nöltner and Dirk Wunderlich...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/14lu0c1.jpg)

Thomas to the very left, Dirk second from the right, and Moni, Klaus's wife, right in the middle

...they both are very qualified DIYers with great experience in vintage-speakers and amps and drivers, not at all shy to build their own stuff... we got to know them for the first time when we visited André in northern France last octobre... if you might be interested, have a look here:

TWOGOODEARS - ??????????: A Reinhard Huttenburg's essay - "Is it possible to combine futuristic music sources with a 100 year old loudspeaker system?" (http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/12/reinhards-essay-is-it-possible-to.html)


second: what was the meeting all about?

well, Prof. Shii, Bruno Plouvier, Thomas Nöltner and Dirk Wunderlich primarily had come to listen to Klaus's system as a whole, that system, of which they already had heard so much about... and they were lucky men, especially lucky men because in addition of being part of the "mad" followers who wanted to test and try out very specific things which ultimately culminated in the fullfilment of my very very personal long time ever hard core dream: "perfect" HiFi ! And yes, I do not only "dare" to say "perfect", I do say it is perfect! As perfect as it can get in reproduction. With absolute conviction, although I know already some things how to further ameliorate Klaus's sound... yes, ameliorations within HiFi-heaven... the only pity is that especially "this" result presumably for most HiFi-aficionados will remain out of reach...


so, what is it exactly, that I am talking about?

well, that what I have been chasing for during all my HiFi-live, and this since 1965, so for 49 years now, that what has come "true" !!! A very very long time dream hardly ever imaginable being fullfilled. My stomoch all the years told me that it could be true perhaps one day, but there never ever seemed to be a "real" way to reach it... but finally digital won the race... (just like Ultra HDTV and more...)

...during our long time research we acquired the best speakers/drivers on the globe, we built the best pre-amps, channel deviders, power amps by ourselves (in the sense that input equals output with absolutely perfect squares from 1 cycle to nearly 100.000 cycles), bult our own DDDACs, created our own digital rips, and within this very session on 15th of february we learned/experienced/heard/listened for the first time what it really means to "perfectly" generate a given "perfect" source and stream digital with DDDACs in all their glory...

so, we are long time "prepared" for amplifying squares and then reproducing them with our drivers and horns... but we never ever had "perfect" conditions and squares in the origin, right in the beginning... well, this problem is solved now, with both of the DDDACs, and not only with perfect rips of CDs and SACDs (ISO/DFF), but in transporting them the way they ought to be transported... and because nobody could help us in doing this, we had to find it out by ourselves... and exactly the last secrets in reproducing music now could be revealed in our lastest session with this theme today: DDDACs total..

What does that mean? Well, we long time have been "waiting" for the "fullfilment" in the developments of the DDDACs... it was not that easy to embed always and immediately all the latest results in research into the given DACs, but this now has come to a wonderful and indeed glorious finish: both DDDACs were ready to be tested against one another with the "maximum" of chips (i.e. 240 for the DDDAC1543) and eight decks with the DDDAC1794 (which is 16 chips, two on each deck)...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2cxb3ac.jpg)

...most of you presumably know the view onto the DDDAC1543 with 120 chips...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/r8rzev.jpg)

...but this should be new: for the first time the combination of the two DDDAC1543 with 120 chips to one DDDAC1543 with 240 (!) chips...

...and yes, when we started with digital and got used to it, I always thought, o.k. one computer is just fine, but hey, have a look, meanwhile we have running three of them at the same time, side by side... who would have thought that?

(http://i57.tinypic.com/34yuwls.jpg)

Doede taming all the "lions", making them working homogeneously together...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2cqcv37.jpg)

...searching for the "right" connections...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/11b5l3l.jpg)

... and adjusting all the 1543 towers, which are now 20 of them (!),  to get everything just exactly perfect...

and now what ? yes, that's what it is all about, the DDDAC1543 with 240 chips

(http://i58.tinypic.com/wufl04.jpg)

here the two DDDAC1543 with 120 chips each - side by side, not yet connected

...but after getting connected ready to be tested in combination with three different controlled power supplies for 5  a n d  12 Volt:

1. the one from Bernd

(http://i61.tinypic.com/akhbog.jpg)

2. Doede's

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2lkppg6.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/20k7zfn.jpg)

3. and Jean's

(http://i58.tinypic.com/9usq5d.jpg)

So, what did we do exactly? We tested the combined "total amount" of the DDDAC1543 with 240 chips in combination with three controlled power supplies: Bernd's, Doede's and the new one from Jean...

...for me - as a non physician - 5 Volt and 12 Volt always have been 5 Volt and 12 Volt, not to be moved or changed at all, like the Mount Everest, but ooohhh, how wrong I was, not only me, all participants had to learn an unbelievable lesson: the sound of different controlled power supplies generating exactly these "5" and "12" Volt is not just a little different, the sound changes that dramatically that one has to hear it to believe... it is like listening to nearly a different system each time... and this is some sort of deviant... so never ever trust just 5 and 12 Volt...

to be continued
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192 part 2
Post by: rhlauranna on February 18, 2014, 10:08:38 AM
...

well, but how did each power supply perform in the end ? Now, all power supplies performed on an absolutely ultra level, without a doubt, and one might think that there are hardly any differences. Why? Because they are all built to "perfection", but nevertheless there were quite big differences in sound when being played, just puzzeling one's mind, and at first sight it was really hard to understand and to experience these "differences"... lastly every single controlled power supply has its merits in its own way, while Doede's being definitely the "quickest"...

...and perhaps it is that quickness that leads to that different results... to describe them is very hard, they are there, but they are that way that one has to hear them... for example Bruno heard them as well, and it is just one opinion, he jokingly told me: "Hi Reinhard, if you let me  y o u r  DDDAC1543 and  y o u r power supply, everything is fine, and we remain friends!" Hey, what a result ? And how funny is that ?

...but this was just one of the topics that interested us most, the "influence" on the sound being fed by "perfect" 5 and 12 Volt (you remember: the 5 Volt for the DAC are not served via PC/MAC but as well externally by the different controlled power supplies, which "shoot" the music immediately into heaven...

...there was another topic, which could not be tested isolated, but only in combination: how would the sound change when all physical necessities are pushed to all their limits, i.e. with the DDDAC1543 with 16 Bit, with the maximum amount of chips, i.e. 16 times 16 = 256? well, we did it "only" with 240, and the newly finished DDDAC1794 with eight decks, i.e. 16 chips... and how would "this" sound "behave" in combination with these three different controlled power supplies...

well, just a second, believe me, for 24 hours I have been searching for "the" right word that suits the result best, and I finally came to the conclusion that "erotic", and yes, even "orgiastic" describes it best...

but please, do not believe that it was only me who had that impression...

1. Jean after some seconds of listening to Youn Sun Nah's voice: My Favorite Things, Album: Some Girl, which truely sounded sublime and erotic - I would have liked to be the microphone she has been singing in...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/208k2ld.jpg)

...immediately screamed out (and I never ever heard Jean screaming out before): "Wow" and "incredible"... and he nearly "jumped" onto my lap, out of pure joy, and the joy was not only a normal joy, it was exactly that joy and feeling that fullfills a life time dream...

2. Prof. Shii, who was very modest and reserved, and who presumably is not that easy to be moved to eruptions of luck, was very very impressed, and he happily claimed: "This is very very hot, and cool!"

3. And Bruno, yes Bruno, he talked in pictures which everybody immediately understands: "My teeth are falling down..."

...and this was exactly the same experience and the same reaction that we had at the end of december last year, when testing out all possibilities with the DDDAC1794 with eight decks and controlled power supplies with and without Sowters, Mundorfs..., with results which we then thought being typical for the 24 Bit chip, but they are not... for more, read here:

TWOGOODEARS - ??????????: A new Reinhard Huttenburg's review... a scientific gathering at Klaus' place - December 2013 (http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2014/01/a-new-reinhard-huttenburgs-review.html)

...to me it is clear now that the ultimate precision which these chips are able to generate, significantly depends on the amount of multiplied parallel chips and decks in combination with controlled power supplies for 5 and 12 Volt, and that they not only dramatically ameliorate the sound but equally reduce the jitter which leads to a breathtaking cleanness and naturality (definitely taking away all digititis if there is any...), and it is clear as well that only this way these chips are capable to reveal their definitely best qualities...

well, it is always interesting to listen to "other" people's music, and so we listened to all the stuff, that everybody had brought with him, for example CDs, but as well all sorts of rips in all resolutions up to 24 Bit 192 kHz, and of course ISO/DSD/DFF...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/e8jrlz.jpg)

Les Introuvables de Pierre Fournier, EMI Classics

(http://i60.tinypic.com/vhsrp4.jpg)

Daniil Shafran, Cello, Encore

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ezsqo3.jpg)

Forastière - Rag Tap Boom

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2rpw7k5.jpg)

Lee Ritenour - 6 String Theory

(http://i57.tinypic.com/mvjl89.jpg)

Wagner - Lohengrin, Daniel Barenboim

(http://i59.tinypic.com/o02jqb.jpg)

Stereoplay - "Ultimate Tunes 2", and "Live aus dem Hörraum"

well, after really extended listening for some ten hours or so with all different kinds of music, jazz, rock, pop, classic.... ranging from pianissimo to fortissimo, to my ears, there is no "loser", both DDDACs are clear winners, but they are a little bit different in their own sound, especially when they are brought to that point, where they are able to reveal their own character... I mean the differences which are chip-immanent then are clearly be heard, the own sound characteriscics of each chip are revealed...

...one might argue, that in direct comparison the 1543 ultimately perhaps delivers a little bit more "punch", right, and that the 1794 maybe delivers some more "natural smoothness" (of course in absolutely positive sense), right as well... it would perhaps be "ideal" to have both in one, but that doesn't work...

anyway with both DACs you are clearly that far in HiFi-heaven where you ever wanted to be but never ever got before...

...and even Doede, who had - at least to my impression - some sort of written down his DDDAC1543, was confronted with some newly superb acoustic surprises provoked by his own masterpiece which so far had not yet been discovered and experienced, till now, but which came out as that "dramatically good" that five participants immediately wanted a 240 DDDAC, hardly any longer speaking a word about the DDDAC1543 with 120 chips or the DDDAC1794.... because the sound is that much better, i.e. erotic and orgiastic !!!

...yes, and even the hardest vinyl aficionados among us admitted that meanwhile many a thing has changed to the better within digital domain and that it would be highly interesting to directly compare the performance of vinyl "against" digital on Klaus's system, but had to concede directly that alone from dynamics vinyl no longer would be able to compete with digital... and that not only for higher and highest 24 bit resolution files but especially for 16 bit !!!

so, my personal decision is clear: I opt for the 240 chips, as wanted most of the other participants of the session,  a  n  d   I will keep of course my DDDAC1794, next step here for me is to mount from 4 decks to 8 decks, not only because of the capability to play high resolution files (by the way, the DDDAC1543 with the new WaveIO-Board is capable of playing up to 24 Bits and 88 kHz and supplying external 5 Volt as well (and in what a mindblowing quality !!!), but because the ultimate researches and developments ih high resolution still have not yet been finished... there are still more things to discover, so for example we want to try out 16 decks, shunt regulators, different resistors... we will see...

so, all those of you who are interested to learn more about what is already going on within further developments, might want to have a look onto the page for really advanced DIYers regarding the DDDAC1794 with all sorts of progression and proceeds... please have a look here....

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-103.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-103.html)

and here of course on the bottom

TWOGOODEARS - ??????????: A new Reinhard Huttenburg's review... a scientific gathering at Klaus' place - December 2013 (http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2014/01/a-new-reinhard-huttenburgs-review.html)

it is understood that we all are very urgently waiting for the next definitive results of these steps, and be assured, they will be done in the near future...

well, we had meetings and meetings and meetings in the past... they all were fun, big fun, without a doubt.. and I have them all in such a vivid remembrance, as if they were yesterday... but this absolutely special session here developed some sort of a dynamic range on its own, everybody got "wings" so to speak... this was not planned, this could not be imagined, it just happened, presumably caused by the topic... and I have no explanation for this but the absolute sublime superbness of the performances...

...have a look at how busy and deeply involved everybody is..

(http://i61.tinypic.com/90bvpk.jpg)

...in listening...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2psobo6.jpg)

...in bringing things together and running...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2mrvfjb.jpg)

...in preheating the controlled power supplies to reach just the "right" temperatur...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/34e2ihg.jpg)

.. in precisely adjusting the volume control...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/10o06l3.jpg)

...in "rechecking" what they are listening to...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/10p4mf5.jpg)

...in measuring and adjusting the exactly needed voltages...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/206fvpy.jpg)

...and when all things are just exactly perfect adjusted just enjoying the
best sound ever in the sweet spot, hardly trusting their own ears...

and yes, the quintessence of the meeting was not only having reached "perfection" but that all participants finally not only "understood" but indeed fully "realized" what we have been doing here the last four years...

the reactions of all participants were splendid... not to become indiscrete, but just to illustrate:

1. Jean: "Wow"... "incredible"...

2. Prof. Shii: "This is very very hot, and cool!"

3. Bruno: "My teeth are falling down!"

4. and yes, my dream came true...

...there is a saying In the german language which goes something like this: "One picture tells more than thousand words". So, please, have a look at Bruno, he brings it to the point when deeply convinced showing thumb up, sighing:

(http://i59.tinypic.com/29c6ses.jpg)



"This is the real sound..."



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on February 18, 2014, 11:00:41 AM
Wowzers, thanks for taking time to share the experience Reinhard.   Glad  Jean is enjoying the 120chip tda1543 dac.  I wanted to keep it, but he was willing to pay top $ for it and it then allowed me to progress with getting more boards for my current dddac1794.

in some ways I do find the older tda1543 dac a bit more 'fuller' and richer signature.  How do you feel they differ?

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 18, 2014, 09:16:43 PM
Wowzers, thanks for taking time to share the experience Reinhard.   Glad  Jean is enjoying the 120chip tda1543 dac.  I wanted to keep it, but he was willing to pay top $ for it and it then allowed me to progress with getting more boards for my current dddac1794.

in some ways I do find the older tda1543 dac a bit more 'fuller' and richer signature.  How do you feel they differ?



Hi Tuyen,

nice to see you here again. Well, your/Jean's 120 DAC is not working/running/sounding like mine. We will have to check this out, even when using my controlled power supply the sound was far from mindblowing. In addition we found out - and we do not know if this was the general "setting" - that USB was not at all implemented/connected... so, the prerequisite to generate a sublime sound were not given, at least from our point of view... if it is/was like that: a pity...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on February 18, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
Love to hear some of these great systems, Many times in the past i have had great expectations about supposedly great sounding and fabulous looking HIFI systems, only to find they sounded like HIFI..... not real, Horns in particular have there own sonic signature, none I have heard, seem to be able to completely alleviate these problems, its always there to some degree. They have some magnificent strengths but I guess nothing is perfect.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 18, 2014, 10:58:34 PM
Love to hear some of these great systems, Many times in the past in have had great expectations about supposedly great sounding and fabulous looking HIFI systems, only to find they sounded like HIFI..... not real, Horns in particular have there own sonic signature, none I have heard, seem to be able to completely alleviate these problems, its always there to some degree. They have some magnificent strengths but I guess nothing is perfect.

come on over and have a listen !!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 04, 2014, 01:16:05 AM
Hi Tuyen,

nice to see you here again. Well, your/Jean's 120 DAC is not working/running/sounding like mine. We will have to check this out, even when using my controlled power supply the sound was far from mindblowing. In addition we found out - and we do not know if this was the general "setting" - that USB was not at all implemented/connected... so, the prerequisite to generate a sublime sound were not given, at least from our point of view... if it is/was like that: a pity...


Hi Reinhard,

I asked Deode to explain further what the issues were on the day regarding the DAC that I sold Jean Hiraga.  His reply follows:

Hi Tuyen,

Actually the USB board was not connected at all ( ?? ) did Jean or his friend to this? They were not very clear…

On the other hand there is in one tower a bad solder joint. After a few hours of playing it short cuts the clock line so that the dac stops. If you put your hand on the tower and apply some pressure, music is back for a few hours…

I am sure Jean and Bruno can fix it. Probably transport did it ….

Sound quality difference was complete debit on the used power supply from Jean. The regulated monster from Bernd is just very good…

Don’t worry, I did not hear any negative word about you …



So seems like Jean not interested in using the USB interface, if it wasn't wired up.   We both know the USB board is better sq than the SPDIF board.   The power supply made by Jean with the r-core transformer just not at the same performance as Bernd's design.

Phew! Thought I sold Jean a lemon :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 04, 2014, 01:59:37 AM
Hi Tuyen,

thanks for your reply... (by the way, what about that japanese site with those three monster power supplies for the pc-motherboard, the hard drive, the processor, and the professional studio attenuator? please tell me...)

yes, I initialized already to get your DDAC1543 checked by Doede himself so that it will be really "ready" for our next listening session, presumably in may...

on the other side, it seems that many people are still not aware and/or still have not yet fully understood what is really happening with USB and how things "work" with "perfect" rips, and still refuse for whatever reason to face that "new" procedure, but have heard that result and still "dream" of getting exactly "that" result with SPDIF...

this phenomenon for me is in the same league of what I told already months - meanwhile years - ago, where it somewhere came to the point that some people told that one simply cannot "listen" to certain CDs because of their "worst" ever possible quality... CDs which are so "bad" that one cannot at all listen to them or not listen to them without getting severe "headache"...

this might perhaps not be the "right" place, but as things "merge" together within digital stream I thought this nevertheless belonging to this topic here because of solving exactly this "problem"...

well, personally, with my DDDACs for years I did no longer encounter any CD which is "not listenable", a fact, that people simply didn't believe... some CDs are really badly produced, o.k., right you are, but they are not "not listenable...", at least one can listen to exactly the bad source and/or the bad implemented mastering, and the way and how they are produced and with what result... one might say: one can listen to these "bad" CDs how "wonderfully bad" they have been "generated" and/or "treated"...

but "not listenable" however for quite some time now belongs to an era where reproduction facilities had not yet been that evolved as they are today...

...not to "repeat" or to "confirm" my own listening experiences but to quote those that others have already had, people, who I definitely do not know personally (and this is just one example):

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?88548-Very-good-sounding-Dac-kit

"...I(t) has the sound of well sorted analogue, no listener fatigue, no CD`s that are not playable anymore..."

...but for those who are still in doubt, it is as always, like Kirkegaard already told: "Everybody has to make his own experiences..."
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 04, 2014, 10:34:01 AM
Hi Reinhard

That Japanese site is the blog diary of Hal Teramoto from Feastrex.   I having a bit of trouble finding the link at the moment. Will post when I figure out how to find it again.

As for the sd card reader and dac you mention, it is called the SDtrans384 project.   Some photos/info here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/142562-microsd-memory-card-transport-project-64.html

The volume controller: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/feastrex/199395-news-feastrex-japan-4.html

Tape to DSD too: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/feastrex/216402-partying-feastrex-japan-diy-phono-cartridges-dsd.html

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 05, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
Hi Tuyen,

thanks for all your links... I have come much closer to what I am looking for, but it is not yet exactly that what I am searching... time will come...

by the way, do you know, what happened to your DDDAC1543 with 120 chips in the meantime ?

...well, Jean Hiraga has presented and used your DDDAC1543 on the last "Triode-Festival 2013" in November in Berlin...

one of the topics of the meeting was:  "Playing perfectly the “sparkling noise of SP records”", of 78 rpm records... please have a look here:

http://www.triodefestival.net/uploads/images_uploads/Jean_Hiraga_ETF2013.pdf

and read carefully Jean's very interesting and informative historical report about the development and the use of triode tubes for audiophiles right from the beginning...

and the "reproduction" of the "sparkling noise of SP records" "culminated" in the use of "your" DDDAC1543 with 120 chips in combination with Bruno Plouvier's power supply, of which I already talked about in my last report...

this was surely "good", the only question for me remains, why the performance ran via CD transport, Teac DV 50, even if it is the first version and unmodified, and not via USB ? As we both know this is "far away" of what this "combo" is capable of "generating"...

...and have a look at the squares ! This is perfect ! What more could you ever "reach" with all DIY than this ?????

the formerly postulated aim to open one day the doors of "true High fidelity” is clearly reached now, but the doors simply won't just right open via SPDIF...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 05, 2014, 02:15:24 PM
The PDF file with a presentation from Jean Hiraga was quite interesting to read, so thank you for sharing, Reinhard.

I'm glad Jean is making good use of the 120chip DAC.   I'm not really sure why he isn't using the USB module. Maybe he is allergic to 'computer audio' like some audiophiles I have met?    Just the thought of having to use a computer to play music makes them shiver.   They don't care how good it may perform!   The squares from an oscilloscope don't mean much to these audiophiles who don't believe there is any link between measurements and music replay :)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 05, 2014, 02:48:01 PM
As for the DDDAC1794NOS,  here are some photos of a 16 chip version my friend has built.   He is using the custom sowter output transformers (highly recommend) over the capacitor output.   2watt Audionote tantalum resistors for the IV.   I've been using 2watt Shinkoh tantalum resistors, but currently trying 2W Allen Bradley carbon resistors which are just as good. Just different.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/yzunyhud.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/aqyty8a7.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/yhy3y4ut.jpg)

How are you finding Doede's new design over the previous one?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on March 05, 2014, 03:32:29 PM
Tuyen That is some DAC, but all those electrolytic caps can add each capacitors character and colourations, If the caps where neutral, it would not be a problem but they never are, what does he think of it's sound. Is that stack earthquake proof.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 05, 2014, 03:58:24 PM
Agreed that everything adds some form of colouration/distortion to the signal (to varying degrees though right?). 

My friend likes the sound I think.  It'll be painful to admit if he didn't like the sound after spending over 2k on the kit!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on March 05, 2014, 04:02:35 PM
Agreed that everything adds some form of colouration/distortion to the signal (to varying degrees though right?). 

My friend likes the sound I think.  It'll be painful to admit if he didn't like the sound after spending over 2k on the kit!
I can see he used audio grade caps, with the gold strip.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on March 05, 2014, 04:33:55 PM
I can see he used audio grade caps, with the gold strip.
Yeah, they look like Elna cerafines to me,  picture is abit fuzzy,  but I think they are elna's.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on March 05, 2014, 05:16:10 PM
 ??? 2K is chicken feed in Audio, so don't see why he'd be not willing to say it's not what he hoped for if that is indeed the case.

I really hope it takes Chan to where he wants to be and brings him lot's of pleasure without the constant swapping out of pieces of kit robbing the bank balance. :'(
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 05, 2014, 05:37:45 PM
Sorry, was a tongue-in-cheek post :)

I lent Chanh a couple of DACs (including my 4 stack DDDAC1794 NOS) for a few weeks so he could play around with them in his system before he made the decision of going down the path he has taken.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 06, 2014, 07:45:29 AM
Hi Tuyen,

you wrote: "...allergic to 'computer audio' like some audiophiles I have met?    Just the thought of having to use a computer to play music makes them shiver.   They don't care how good it may perform!   The squares from an oscilloscope don't mean much to these audiophiles who don't
believe there is any link between measurements and music replay..."

yes, that's it: it was exactly the same with me some five years ago when it all started... "Per aspera, ad astra." One has to get "used" to those new techniques, to new "handys", to new ultra HDTV, to new Oled-TV, to new DACs and so on...

right you are, there will ever be some who will refuse... for those a proverb in Germany which goes something like this seems to fit: "Those who are no longer curious, are old!" and that's exactly the cause why the new target of the richest society on globe, "Apple", is directed to young people between four and twenty years of age... why? they still learn and adapt by playing...

...and you know the difference between "believing" and "knowing"... those who know "nothing" always have to "believe"... and you will always have to make your own experiences...  and this is not easy, this is work...

but I am not a preacher... for us to get rid of that "deficiency" in "not knowing" we have come so far within the last two decades that we try out everything by measuring  a n d  listening and vice versa... and this is absolutely indispensable... from a certain reproduction level onwards "ears" alone are no longer "sufficient" to make things out (there is no two identical pair of them, they are neither identical between left and right), and to be able to "ameliorate" that, what we really want...

and whenever it came to more perfect squares, this was clearly and immediately listenable (for all different ears)... and hey, measurements, when Formula 1 racing cars are on the road, the computer is on board, and sending all the relevant data to the service station, and they (menwhile forbidden) are able to "adjust" all necessary "things" on the fly to further optimize just while the car is racing... I know, what those guys mean, of course, but no measurements? no measurements at all ? on that level? how naiv is that then ?

if you might want to read more about squares, please have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

but anyway, everybody is responsible for "his own" luck and may do what he likes... we found out, that there are quite a lot of curious things in addition which have influence on our sound, things that we cannot explain why they are this way or that way, they simply are as they are, and we have to face them, even if they are just the opposite of that what we expected, even "against" mathematical and physical laws... (one of those biggest steps in that direction was to mount from 60 to 120 chips, which took me nearly a year, to "convince" Doede to built it for me at all - against his conviction and studies...

I have told about this experience elsewhare, with 60 chips you have: 2 + 2 =  4, and this is just exactly perfect. So what more to expect if you further enlarge the amount of chips? I tell you: with the step from 60 to 120 the result was more than 4, much much more than 4, the door to "real HiFi" just opened and magic appeared... simply from frequency response nothing changed (not even with measurements), but the sound suddenly came from another universe and the jitter became reduced in an totally unexpected way and amount...

and we anew experienced exactly that really dramatically in another further step while mounting from 120 to 240 chips (my dream) on our last session... after everybody had listened to that - just for seconds - five guys immediately wanted to have a DDDAC1543 with 240 chips, me too of course (and I will get it)...

but that result was only half of the rent, so to speak, that result was only to 50% generated by the DAC... it was not just simply "done" by having "that" DDDAC or another playing... the real sublime and magic results were only reached in combination with an absolute "overdose" on power supply....

hardly anybody seemed to have fully realised that in all its details during our last session (they do not have Klaus's system that way on the long run in their ears as we have), but two of our guests from Karlsruhe who are long time users of WE15- and Klangfilm-systems and were the last to leave the session...  (we will visit them for specifically their systems during the next months to come...)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2enqhcy.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/zy6dmx.jpg)

for those who are not familiar of what specifically this is all about here is some report:

http://www.inner-magazines.com/news/90/72/Klangfilm-Bionor/

...they really have good ears... they were here with us for the first time and completely unprejudiced, they never ever listened to anything within Klaus's area, and they now listened to all kinds of DDDAC combinations and power supplies that we were able to combine at all (and we only told them afterwards what had been playing), and they did no longer understand the world and were quite astonished when finding out by their own ears that Bernd's power supply with simply one deck of the DDDAC1794 was better than anything else, even Doede's own DDDAC1794 with eight decks and Sowters and everything, and better by far...

...that better, that one of them  afterwards said: "well, I have already learned last time at André's that your ´futuristic´ sources very wonderfully work together with 90 year old loudspeaker systems (i.e. vintage Western Electric 15 A and Western amps...), but now I am that massively convinced and in such a temptation that every resistance is of no longer use.. my only worry is, what do I do with all my vinlys?"

get me right: not that the other power supplies were "bad" in any way, they are absolutely top of the gear, it is simply that they just do not reach that level of "magic" that we all are looking for our whole lives, but Bernd's...

I told already, this result belongs to those phenomenons which simply are unexplainable: 5 Volt are 5 Volt, and 12 Volt are 12 Volt, but generated and stabilized with different power supplies lead to such different sorts of result in sound, that you only can shake your head because of all those differences... the result is: power matters, it really heavily matter: 5 Volt and 5 Volt behave absolutely not the same with different power supplies, and you get the most out of it with Bernd's controlled power supply...

and have a look, quite some experts have tried to "handle" that phenomenon: Doede, Jean Hiraga, Bruno Plouvier, even Mundorf (yes, the one with the silver/gold caps... see his site for all kinds of different controlled power supplies up to 3.000 €/piece...)

so the amplification is one of the biggest secrets of getting "the most" out of your DACs, and yes, we have checked Bernd's controlled power supply on some twenty or so different DACs (no, I do not name them, but they were rather expensive with leading names on the market)...

Tuyen, I told you already months ago to invest all the money that you have in multi-amping Class A amplifiers (according to Jean's data-sheets) and to make it all active, this is the best you can get with presumably lowest cost and least work to do... I saw some sort of "prototype" of yours quite some time ago, but never ever any "finish"... just read about some "hum" during the building phase, but from that what I got to know there was never ever a final solution, or was there any? then please tell me if I'm wrong..

anyway, as you are into this "DAC" now, this meanwhile should no longer be the "first" step (but the second)... with the same "amount" as for your power supplies you should care for a definitely "controlled" power supply for your DAC - not just with the minimum requirements but with a powerful "overdose" in every part...

we happened to experience al these advantages just by accident... because I wanted to get rid of my long time car and lorry batteries for the DDDAC1543 which consumes some awesome 6 Ampère and takes  about two days to get completely reloaded again...

so, one day Bernd came around the corner, having just finished a new controlled power supply for our Goto drivers, weighing some twenty kilos, and he said just for fun, we could try it out in combination with my DDDAC1543... and yes, what to say, totally speechless we both said: yes, that's it, it was that magic, right from the first moment on, and I would have "killed" him if he would have taken away that power supply... no coloration at all, no distortion, no indications that horns are playing, just pure music, as good as the source is...

and yes, that power supply turned out to be equally the "perfect" thing as well for our purposes with the DDDAC1794... well, meanwhile not only Mundorf and/or other suppliers, but Doede himself - after the plan of Bernd - and even Jean himself have tried their own versions, but in four week longtime tests just in January this year where we have been able to compare them all side by side, we found out that Bernd's is by far the best and "the" one to go...

and Bernd's power supply with Doede's eight deck (no Sowters, no small power supplies) that's it for me, and for Klaus...

not that the other power supplies are "bad" or so, no, no, not at all, they are all absolutely first rate, their only disadvantage is, that they simply do not "reach" magic and that level of real deep satisfaction like Bernd's...

the "gain" in sound is that dramatic, one has to hear it to believe...

even if I should repeat myself: after some four weeks of hard core testing with all what we have: DDDAC1543 with 60 chips (Klaus), DDDAC1543 with 120 chips (mine), DDDAC1794 with one deck, DDDAC1794 with four decks, controlled power supply from Mundorf (some 1.200 €, which is rather strong and really quite good - but far not good enough for our sources), the ones from Doede, which have been made in mind to be "small" and "affordable" for everybody, and which are absolutely superb regarding price/performance/ratio without a doubt (but are not that what  y o u , especially  y o u  are looking for, neither does the latest newly built one by Jean himself.... but Bernd's...

the result was the following: Bernd's 20 kilogram super power supply (which originally was intended to become a final controlled Class A power supply for our Goto drivers) beats everything there is, and by far... that way, that Bernd's power supply with one deck - believe it or not - is far superior than Doede' total construction with 8 decks and Sowters and everything...

and we have only one explanation for that: all the "false" things seem to be immanent within the "not perfect" squares of the Sowters (as good as they might appear - presumably most of the DIYers will not have been able to "listen" to "such" "relatively good" squares before (but they still produce overswings up and down and have not enough velocity to get it perfectly vertically, and stability to get it perfectly horizontally, and take it for "good", but this is "nothing" in comparison to "perfect" squares...

you wrote further: "He is using the custom sowter output transformers (highly recommend) over the capacitor output..." well, did you ever trust me ? if so, get rid of the Sowters and get Bernd's power supply, the "value" is roughly about the same, but you will get "the" sound that you ever have been dreaming of (although it is another question of how far you are able to bring the "generated" 500 horse powers onto the road... I told already...

not to make the Sowters bad, they are highly esteemed everywhere within DIY circles (see the ongoing discussion and tweaking progresses here):

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html

and they are surely the best available if there would not "be" Bernd's power supply.... and this exactly makes for us the difference between HiFi and magic... so, what are you looking for ?

by the way, next month, to be precise on April 5th, we will habe a bunch of guys of those DIYers mostly from the Netherlands here with us, especially Supersurfer who for fifteen years is developing with no less than Guido Tent on all kind of DACs, and who are quite some steps ahead of us with their Shunt regulators, Tantualum resistors and all different kind of tweaks, and be assured, they will get a big shock, some sort of that shock, of which lately J. told me: listening to your system for the first time was one of the greatest shocks in my life... I made so many mistakes... I want to have it exactly like you... I know I am four or five trains late, but I am already on the right platform...

so, do yourself a favor and get Bernd's power supply... I told him about your long time ambition and I have already asked him, and he explained that he would build one for you if you like (by the way, Bernd's profession is being qualified high voltage electrician...)

...and keep in mind, this is not a new investment, this is just a change (more or less), but it will bring you exactly that what you ever have been dreaming of, a perfect origin...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 06, 2014, 09:50:01 AM
Thanks for another detailed instalment of the current happenings over there. :)

I lost interest and gave up on attempting to re-do 'properly' those cheaply made DIY low powered class a amps.  I've moved back using low powered SET amps (el84, 6b4g and 45 tubes) because I was happy enough with their looks, design and sound.  The goto woofer i use a higher powered push pull amp (el34).

So the consensus over there is that Bernd's monster 12v power supply is the "one" in terms of powering both the older dddac1543 and also the new dddac1794 boards? What about for the USB module on the new design that needs 5v?    Were you guys still using Doede's power kit for that?

If Bernd's power supply with 1-stack and no sowters sounded better than Doede's 8-stack with sowters and his kit power supplies, did you guys try Bernd's power supply with Doede's 8 stack with sowters?! Surely that would be closer to sonic utopia? Or am I missing something?   So you guys prefer the capacitor output over the sowters?

Do you realise that by using cap output(ie. single ended), you are essentially throwing away half of the DACs balanced output energy/signal? The  sowters combine both +ve and -ve outputs and utilize fully the output signals to produce a more 'stronger' output signal.   Also, with capacitor output, the capacitor you use changes the sound completely too. I notice Doede recommends Mundorf silver/gold/oil.  They are ok. Detailed, but do not possess the tonal balance I like (a bit too clean/lean/light).   I prefer Duelund VSF copper capacitors (or Duelund CAST coppers) if you haven't already.  More fuller/natural sound (to my ears).   I'm sure the "squares" will be very similar between these caps. But the sound it makes when the signal passes through them is not.

Either way, I will get in contact with Bernd and enquire further info. Thank you kindly for that.

As for "new controlled power supply for goto drivers", what do you mean? The goto drivers don't need a power supply? Or are you guys converting them with field coils?

I sold my midhigh sg370 and s600b horn long time ago. Plan on selling the sg505tt and s200b horn soon.   Keeping the sg38wn woofer and sg16tt tweeters.  I really like them still. Especially the 50hz azurahorn designed bass horn I built for the woofers.   As a midrange driver I am playing with 8" full range Atelier Rullit field coil driver. Pairing with a big 160hz le cleach horn.     What can I say, I'm still young, I like trying new things :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 06, 2014, 10:26:20 AM
When you have "mastered" the Digital to Analog Conversion stage,  look into Digital Signal Processing for crossover/time alignment of your multi-way speakers.

As your systems are all active (ie. amplifier per speaker driver), it's isn't a huge leap in terms of hardware required.   But the possible sonic benefits of removing your current 'limited' electronic crossover and  using either your computer or external DSP which has ability to time align each driver will surely bring improvements unimaginable. :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 06, 2014, 10:30:35 AM
(http://www.dahlbergaudiodesign.se/images/dsp_outp.jpg)

Najda DSP is what I am looking into currently to play around with.
http://www.waf-audio.com/products.php?pos=1&lang=en (http://www.waf-audio.com/products.php?pos=1&lang=en)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 06, 2014, 10:45:05 AM

I lost interest and gave up on attempting to re-do 'properly' those cheaply made DIY low powered class a amps. 

that's a pity... when you will get used to generate that what are perfect squares, then you might want to listen to them presumably exactly and not "modified" and "equalized"... you might have difficulties to amplify perfect squares with tubes...  later on you can show me the results of your measurements...

So the consensus over there is that Bernd's monster 12v power supply is the "one" in terms of powering both the older dddac1543 and also the new dddac1794 boards? 

absolutely

What about for the USB module on the new design that needs 5v?    Were you guys still using Doede's power kit for that? 

no, Bernd's controlled power supply has two outputs, one for 12 Volt and one for 5 Volt, perfectly adjusted (and generally adjustable within the power supply itself for higher and lower levels) for the individual needs... from what I have understood there are some slight differences in voltages depending on the amount of decks... so one always has the possibility to adjust, to keep it just exactly perfect... don't underestimate this, one can clearly hear that...

If Bernd's power supply with 1-stack and no sowters sounded better than Doede's 8-stack with sowters and his kit power supplies, did you guys try Bernd's power supply with Doede's 8 stack with sowters?! Surely that would be closer to sonic utopia? Or am I missing something?

we had three DDDAC1794 for testing purposes here with us: Klaus's with one deck, mine with four decks and Doede's one with sowters (and all the different controlled power supplies)... we had several PCs running with identic configuration, i.e. windows 8, foobar, corresponding apps and so on, identical music tracks, and so we only needed to switch on Klaus's pre-amp to what configuration we ever wanted... and not only the direct comparison revealed the results, just by singular listening the differences were so listenable, immediately obvious. as clear as I described them already... lastly we tried Doede's eight decks isolated from the rest of his platform, and right, that's the way to go... there is the same effect listenable as with the DDDAC1543, and in combination with the new 5 Volt from Bernd's power supply the sound becomes absolutely sublime, exactly that way, that we ever wanted, but did not get, so far (with 24 Bit)...

and yes, go ask Bernd if he wants to help you...

all my goto drivers are driven by class A mono amps with controlled power supply... Klaus is on the way to mount to these... and that what I have in use for my DDDACs now was developed by Bernd as a controlled power amp for the goto drivers...

just a recommendation: to get your sound on an "equal" level I would recommend you to switch to all-Goto drivers... don't underestimate the synergy potential when doing so, your sound will reach another level of coherence and naturality... when you drive a car, do you prefer to have four different car tyres or better one ?

I'm still young, I like trying new things :)

o.k., I understand, and that makes fun, real fun... but where do you want to go? what is your aim ?

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 06, 2014, 11:02:50 AM
Hi Reinhard,

By the way, I have been playing with various operating systems and media players in the past year or so with a few friends.

Are you guys using Windows Server 2012 R2 ?    If not, go ahead and try it. It  will improve sound quality  over Windows 7 or 8.

Some info to read: http://www.highend-audiopc.com/PDF/audiophile_optimizer_setup_guide.pdf (http://www.highend-audiopc.com/PDF/audiophile_optimizer_setup_guide.pdf)


We have also been playing with a Linux based operating system/media player  called Daphile.   http://www.daphile.com/ (http://www.daphile.com/)    Extremely cool and is freeware.

Next experiment are linear power supplies for your computers.   :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 06, 2014, 11:10:03 AM
My aim in this hobby is to try and explore (as many as possible) various bits and pieces that interests me.  Is that a fair aim?

As I don't believe there are any specific 'ultimate' end paths to take in this hobby, I don't feel forced to take things so seriously, which I find is quite refreshing.

Less serious = less stress = less care = less competitive = more enjoyable = more beer = more new music = more fun.

I assume it differs quite greatly to yours :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 06, 2014, 02:27:41 PM
Reinhard, will be interesting when Stefan (Supersurfer) and the other NL guys come visit.   Indeed I look forward to reading the outcomes from the visit, as Stefan has been tweaking a bit more than most other DDDAC users.     He reports improvements in speed/dynamics with replacement of the monolithic regulators and electrolytic caps that supply power to the dac chip  with Guido's shunt regulators.  His recommendation is that 1 stack with shunt regulation sounds better than standard 4 stack with stock regulation!

Does it sometimes make you wonder the level of importance you put focus on with achieving 'perfect squares' on your components (eg. the output from the DDDAC + your class A power amps),  when basic tweaks to the dac  (eg. different output caps, IV resistors, dedicated regulators) can quite dramatically affect/change the sound?  Would these 'perfect squares' show the differences?   Imagine all the hundreds of individual components in your preamp/poweramps/crossover/speaker cables/interconnects/computers  that can also all greatly affect the system's sound?   

I think the concept of attaining a 'well measuring DAC + amps' is a good starting base to building a good system,  but I truly believe there is a ALOT more to it for getting great sounding system.   I mean, if you guys were serious about measurements (eg. perfect squares) being the 'right' way for perfect sound,  shouldn't you guys focus on controlling the 4/5-way system with DSP (either through computer since you are already using it as a source, or externally)?   How else would be able to time/phase align your system without it (and as far as I am aware, they are quite critical for a correctly measured system) ?


Anyways, below an interesting post he made regarding modification of jensen capacitors.

Regarding output capacitors consider Jensen copper foil in oil. These come in two tastes: with aluminium cover and with paper cover. The latter one sounds better but is more expensive.

I have experiemted years ago with taking off the shrinkfoil of electrolytics and caps, this brings an audible improvement. This has to do with the foil being static and that influences the magnetic field of the capacitor, this magnetic field is generated by the AC currents running through a capacitor. If the magnetic field is influenced, it will also influence the currents; thus losing microdynamics.

The aluminum cover also has a similar effect. If you saw off this cover the sound will be MUCH better!
The oldest paper in oil capacitors that I have stripped are now around 8 years old and still measure and sound fantastic.

So this is my little "geheimtip"

Jensen has also discovered this, hence their more expensive line of caps with paper cover. Don't let them fool you.................

Here are some pictures:
-you can see the inside of the Jensen copper foil capacitors, some paper around and wooden covers.
-the complete arrangement with Alix board and custom short USB cable.
-The shunt regulators from Tentlabs for 8V and 3,3V, I had to remove some capacitors and the regulators. You can leave out the Wima because there is also one on the shunt. I still have to remove the electrolytics that are directly on the pins of the dac chip (the wima's will stay); this will give more speed/dynamics.

Next will be to mount the Sowters and two extra dac boards.


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on March 06, 2014, 10:34:23 PM
As your systems are all active (ie. amplifier per speaker driver), it's isn't a huge leap in terms of hardware required.   But the possible sonic benefits of removing your current 'limited' electronic crossover and  using either your computer or external DSP which has ability to time align each driver will surely bring improvements unimaginable. :)
Applauding your post Tuyen.   Very pleased to see the bolded bit.    Whether that is dsp, or via analog active crossovers with time/phase adjustment,  the point is time alignment is an important setup step. Definitely.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 06, 2014, 11:44:38 PM
"...will be interesting when Stefan (Supersurfer) and the other NL guys come visit.   Indeed I look forward to reading the outcomes from the visit, as Stefan has been tweaking a bit more than most other DDDAC users.     He reports improvements in speed/dynamics with replacement of the monolithic regulators and electrolytic caps that supply power to the dac chip  with Guido's shunt regulators.  His recommendation is that 1 stack with shunt regulation sounds better than standard 4 stack with stock regulation!"

yes, I am very aware of Stefan's progresses, to me they have been for quite some time that big and that interesting that I had invited him already to our last session here in february, but he wasn't able to come because of his son's 10th birthday (which of course has priority)... so we rather quickly arranged another date because he was so interested in having a listen at all...
and yes, as it seems, this guy (and others) are far ahead of us regarding this specific matter...

and I am very glad, that they live "around the corner" so to speak, just two or three hours away by car, and that we can meet so quickly and immediately exchange and learn from each other... and not only have fun, but "serious" fun together...

Doede told me already that he is long time aware of these shunts and that he personally will take care for that phenomenon, but because of the complexity of things that happen altogether at once on one single shunt (there are other shunts from other suppliers as well, not only from Tent-labs, as to be read on the DIY-site), he wants to develop a "more advanced" platform from which every single influence on a shunt (+ and -) at every single step, which at the moment all together perform as a unit, is switchable, adjustable and measurable to see "exactly" what happens technically and how these influences will "please" our ears or not when switching from one single influence to another, to and fro...

...his impression at the moment is that perhaps not all things that are performing on a shunt - although may be "good" for other purposes -  possibly are "not all good" for the performance on his decks of his DDDAC1794, he wants to try it out that way that I esteem the most: the scientific way... according to his own words on DIY he has planned this for coming may... and of course we are very urgently waiting for these results...

"Does it sometimes make you wonder the level of importance you put focus on with achieving 'perfect squares' on your components (eg. the output from the DDDAC + your class A power amps)..."

no, no, no, not at all...  "perfect squares" are the quintessence of all my/our researches here during the last 40 years and by far the best (basic) that could ever happen in my/our HiFi-lifes... and they seem to be exactly that what external listeners realise and admire the most... why ? because perfect squares elsewhere are "not offered" and the listeners immediately and instinctively miss them while not really "knowing" but just wondering what precisely they are missing...

and after more than twenty years of research in detail I am able to amplify those squares just exactly perfect with all my amps and (nearly) reproduce them (all) with my drivers... and it clearly shows..

the only "thing" was, that that what has always been "lacking" so far were exactly these perfect squares right in the beginning, in the origin, in the "revivaling-process" of the "tinned" music...

...although we meanwhile have to differ: the DDDACs being able to "deliver" perfect squares and nowadays Bernd's monster power supply to "generate" them within this joint-venture...

everything else that we - so far - listened to, only delivers "half" of that what the DDDACs in other combinations are capable of...

..and in the beginning of the 19seventies, it was no less than Jean Hiraga who specifically directed us to "perfect squares" and pointed them out (they of course never ever were at that time) and showed them within his reports via pictures for every unit tested, the best out there at the time (and he always "knew" why he did that)...

and we have to deeply thank him for exactly all his "discoveries" and presenting them to the public ... he delivered the basics for us through all the years, and he made us able at all to "select" all the best "circuits" and "ingredients" out of all these tests and reports and  to "combine" them for our needs to that what we have today...

... and as a result we happen to finally have perfect squares, and it was Jean himself loudly screaming out when first listening to exactky these "perfect squares" here with me, but never got them in his tested industry products... personally I had the impression that one of his life's time dreams finally had come true...

what do you think might have been the reason for Jean to acquire your DDDAC1543 with 120 chips ? and to pay a good price as you told ?

because this is "the only" unit to reproduce that what was his aim: "Playing perfectly the “sparkling noise of SP records”"

...have a look at his presentation of "one" perfect square at 1.000 cycles with your former DDDAC1543 with 120 chips on Jean's presentation in Berlin...

http://www.triodefestival.net/uploads/images_uploads/Jean_Hiraga_ETF2013.pdf

he is (proudly) showing these results regarding perfect squares in his report for that event (link above)...

... this is the summit, the most that a physician/scientist/electronics engineer can reach in his life (unfortunately it is still not yet perfectly adjusted - as we have personally heard )...

and with my modest knowledge I owe Jean, from whom we participated constantly during the last forty years, to get the most out of the actual developments and I will gladly help him to "adjust" all the necessary things to reach that "perfection" that he was longing for during his whole life - the same way as I told you... one thing is for sure, as Jean told me, he will make use of my offer...

your aim is "...to try and explore (as many as possible) various bits and pieces..."

same with us, but we want to come to a certain "solution" that way that the illusion of reproducing music is so that we are no longer "disturbed" when listening... we want to have a "perfect" reproduction of no matter what "conserved" music

"...there is a ALOT more to it for getting great sounding system..."

right, but at the moment I still do not know what you understand being a "great" sounding system... an example please...

"...focus on controlling the 4/5-way system with DSP..."

o.k., o.k., good idea, you are ahead of us... we have that in mind for years, but as is, even for us, Rome is not built in a day...

fact is, that Mr. Mundorf personally will make the necessary scientific measurements here at Klaus's regarding the sound within Klaus's room and to explore especially the necessity and the extent for time alignment presumably at the end of this month after the fair where he is obliged...

we do not possess these extremely expensive units to measure precisely "time alignment", by the way, this is a "perfect" example where the own ears are not sufficient to define what exactly is happening, that what's all about...  and as we are aware of that, we did not try by "tweaking" manually... (although I did time alignment within my system - adjusted "by eye"...)

but when the measurements are done we will see further, and yes, we even will try out computer based alignment, but regarding that matter personally I am very sceptical, everything exept "storing" within digital is some sort of "suspicious" to me in audio...

as you already mentioned all things withing digital area, within Os and 1s, have influence on our sound, and as you claimed precisely, the Windows 12 R2 server "will improve sound quality over Windows 7 or 8"...

hey, what is that? I "know" (i.e. I have a deep feeling) that it is like that, but how does that happen at all, all within 0s and 1s ? at the moment we still have to face that it is like that - without explanation why...

...and within this context to switch to electronic time alighment ? No, I really don't think so, the idea is good, without a doubt, but the transformation into the system of Os and 1s, which at least at the moment are not "controllable", that hardly will be a "solution" for us... so, from all my personal experiences: less influence on the sound nearly always has brought "more" to it...

"How else would be able to time/phase align your system without it (and as far as I am aware, they are quite critical for a correctly measured system) ?"

you are right, presumably we will have to make compromises, and we will have to live with them..

...but if compormises, the less seems the better...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on March 07, 2014, 10:47:29 AM
...and you know the difference between "believing" and "knowing"... those who know "nothing" always have to "believe"... and you will always have to make your own experiences...  and this is not easy, this is work...

I'll chime in on this, and offer my own point of view (remember, this is my personal opinion, I don't present it as fact).    IMV, there is "absolute truth" and then there is "belief".   In my experience, there is nothing in between.   You say you've done the necessary listening tests to be certain that what you know is correct,   but this is not "absolute truth". 
   This is where measurements come into play.  I don't sit in the camp that measurements are not necessary,  IMV measurements are a useful yardstick for certain things.   And they can certainly be used as supportive "evidence".    So, if you wish to present something as an "absolute truth" then you need to provide supporting evidence and real measurements.   
   If you cant provide supporting evidence,  then I am afraid what you are presenting are "beliefs" .   And there is nothing wrong with that.   I am very happy and interested to read your beliefs, and your posts.   The language is very colourful, and entertaining,  and I enjoy reading them.   Make no mistake, I sincerely admire your passion.
   

Read again some of your own words, which are definitely a "belief" system that you are sharing with us.


Quote
I tell you: with the step from 60 to 120 the result was more than 4, much much more than 4, the door to "real HiFi" just opened and magic appeared... simply from frequency response nothing changed (not even with measurements), but the sound suddenly came from another universe and the jitter became reduced in an totally unexpected way and amount...
I believe, I believe.

Quote
but that result was only half of the rent, so to speak, that result was only to 50% generated by the DAC... it was not just simply "done" by having "that" DDDAC or another playing... the real sublime and magic results were only reached in combination with an absolute "overdose" on power supply....

Quote
I told already, this result belongs to those phenomenons which simply are unexplainable: 5 Volt are 5 Volt, and 12 Volt are 12 Volt, but generated and stabilized with different power supplies lead to such different sorts of result in sound, that you only can shake your head because of all those differences...

There's more and more and more,  I don't need to labour the point.   But what is the point?    You've done the testing and listening, and you have the knowledge to be confident in what you say.   But,,,,  it is still a "belief" system you are sharing with us.     We should not be criticised for having our own beliefs,  and likewise,  I will not criticise your beliefs.   

I believe you.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on March 07, 2014, 11:24:55 AM
That's a really good reply Oz.  I beleive therefore I am.  ;)
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on March 07, 2014, 12:02:26 PM
I beleive therefore I am.  ;)
V

:)   some say that is the secret to success.    8)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on March 07, 2014, 08:51:30 PM
that's a pity... when you will get used to generate that what are perfect squares, then you might want to listen to them presumably exactly and not "modified" and "equalized"... you might have difficulties to amplify perfect squares with tubes...  later on you can show me the results of your measurements...


Lol perfect squares you might have trouble getting ss amps to sound like music
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 08, 2014, 01:07:39 AM
please, don't take my nonsense (believes) that seriously... just take it as some sort of "war report"...

there are so many things unexplored in HiFi, and especially within the digital area, that we here practically learn "more" from day to day, and as it comes out, to our ears mostly to the better...

but what is really "new" to us, is - while exploring and researching - the absolutely unexpected addition to face and to get used to and to understand (if possible) and to handle "mathematically-physically impossible-" and "nonsense"-phenomenons within the Os and 1s-area which have (so far uncontrolled) influence on our sound...

it is not at all my intention to generate, spread and/or bother anybody with my "personal belief", but I have to face exactly these facts just as they are, and just like everybody else...

"Informations are prerequisite for qualified decisions",  so, if one makes use of them to take advantage of, is strictly personally and up to anybody, but anyway, being "informed" is much better than not being informed with the need to believe, if one is interested...

and it's further up to you to take "quoted" results of qualified persons with a scientific education as physician and/or electronics engineer as a "belief" or not, but at least this opens the possibilities for you, if you should want to, to try out certain things for your own purpose, and I always will be glad to "offer" our results and to get to know the ones from others...

regarding belief, to illustrate precisely what I mean, here is an example, someone on the DIY-site wrote:

"Come on - do people really believe that data can be delivered very good or not so good through an USB data cable?? That is complete nonsense in my world.

Either they come through the cable intact, or they dont. "

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-90.html

and the response from Doede was:

"I thought the same till I really compared.  Has mostly to do with grounding I believe"

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-91.html

as I happened to be part of exactly that specific experience this, for me, is not a "belief" but a result, no matter what caused it... and as hardly anybody can tell us about these phenomenons, we, wherever we can, try it out for ourselves just not to believe but to establish...

...

and when it is written like that, then I have to "believe" at first sight, but in a second step I try to "verify" for myself resp. ourselves (because I am not alone, I am mostly in a "group"), and so I invited that guy to share and show and make us listen to his (presumably fantastic) results with the shunt regulators, Tantalums and so on...:

"Hoi Doede,

This is something that has been tested and measured by Guido Tent.
We have done this before on other dac units.
I have not done A-B testing on this detail.
It makes sense though; the sunt regulator is much faster than an electrolytic.
The shunt acts as a very fast capacitor with high bandwith and large current capability; that is a combination you cannot find in capacitors.
So you do not need the capacitors any more, they only give more work to the shunts with their interaction.
In comparison to a series regulator the shunt does not only source current, it will also sink current. That makes the power lines much more silent. Imagine all the current that is bounced back from a consumer when the impedance rises, this current will stay on the power lines and can dissapear only in heat........
Regarding the wima at the dac pins and the one on the shunt: yes it is better not to use two wimas and mount the shunt directly at the dac pins. But as for this design the shunts do have some distance from the dac so it is better to keep the extra wima..."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-103.html

...

or other things, where we came from an idea/belief/presumption or a simple wish to try something out to concrete results when testing practically

"...this told us again, that BIG power supplies do make a difference...

also, that paralleling DAC chips seems to have no limit..."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-108.html

so, this clearly shows that even the professionals have to experiment and listen for themselves, even if they have to overcome with what they have studied and have to face to try out practically...

...

most of that what I read on the DIY-sites I have to "believe", and in some cases we will be able to "verify" the results for ourselves (or not)

well, on April 5th we will see/hear what it is all about regarding specifically that topic with all those shunts and Tantalums, and if their results and our "believes" come true...

presenting and discussing all the results of all DIYers in the net all around the globe to me is one of the best things that could ever happen in our time...

...but I learn to get the results "neutral" it might perhaps be "better" to leave future reports then to our guests...

aaahhh, lastly there is some good news, a "fact", not a belief:

"384kHz with waveIO Runs without Problems on the dddac..."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-104.html

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 08, 2014, 02:04:47 AM
Lol perfect squares you might have trouble getting ss amps to sound like music

hmmmhh, just last week we had carneval over here, for a good week or so... and I happened to listen to about 100 street bands walking by within all the different carneval processions...

guess, where I stood during most of the time in order to further "educate" my ears, some three till ten meters in distance...

and I do not know how close you come within your reproduction, but we are not that far away...

by the way, "perfect squares" directly "shine through" when using tubes, I always hear this when listening for example Doede's own tube amplified system...

but I hear as well what is all "missing" to my ears...



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on March 08, 2014, 02:13:25 AM
rhlauranna,  Listening to real unamplified music is the best way to tune a system, When you cannot tell the difference you know you have made it. well done.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on March 08, 2014, 07:25:27 AM
That's cool Reinhard,  I guess my point is that knowledge and belief go hand in hand.     Knowledge is not fact without evidence.     But I am not saying you have to have proof, not at all.   It's hard work to generate evidence, we don't need to, if we trust our ears (many don't).

So, try not to be too critical of those who believe,  that covers about 99% of audio enthusiasts.  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 11, 2014, 06:45:10 AM
thank you for your requests...

finally I managed to get some pixes of Bernd's controlled power supply for 12 Volt and 5 Volt, and especially the section with the 5 Volt controlled deck...

so, here they are, but please don't ask me for technical details, if you should be in need for these, feel free to ask Bernd directly, he surely will take care for your needs...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/j7c8bb.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/14jsw3l.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2e3sozp.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/28wmema.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/24y92sn.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2nrog4.jpg)



unfortunately on my screen the pixes, although strongly "reduced" do not fit into the given frames that I see here, so I add them as "tinies" for you to see "better"...




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 11, 2014, 07:23:11 AM
Hi Reinhard, can you please ask if he received my email?  I sent him one the day you first posted about it, but no reply so far.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 11, 2014, 10:53:01 PM
Hi Reinhard, can you please ask if he received my email?  I sent him one the day you first posted about it, but no reply so far.

Hi Tuyen,

just talked to Bernd by phone (neither I got an answer via mail) and he excuses for his delay... at the moment he is struggeling with some virus in his PC, and to avoid further damage he had to shut it down for a while, but as soon this is done, he will of course answer your questions immediately...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 20, 2014, 10:43:21 PM
as there some people "really" seem to be into "DACs", please allow me to draw your attention onto some things that might "generally" be of interest when planning/constructing/building/testing/listening to whatsoever DACs...

I am really very highly impressed and amazed about what certain DIY come up with, things that I am simply not aware of and which I even cannot think of, but which I find very well worth to be shown to those who are able to, to see, to get to know, and perhaps make personal/general use of it for own purposes...

to indicate what I mean let me hint you (once again) onto "Supersurfer" from the DIY-er site, just not to "confuse" anybody, but hopefully to "enlarge" the own horizon for DIY-ambitions and -purposes:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-132.html

this guy seems to be that far ahead (at least here with us) that it seems very well worth to present his ideas (which by far are not all costly) and to have a closer "look" with what results they are connected in detail...

so please, have a look here:

(http://i60.tinypic.com/8x7uvb.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/23qyx48.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/25sa6o8.jpg)

I'm especially "moved" with all those (different kinds of) shunt regulators which really leave the impression "to bring things forward", I don't know yet, but all those people who make use of them cannot be "wrong" ?

...so, I have to admit that I am very very glad that this guy with some friends of his (The Dutch Connection) will be here with us in about two weeks to test all these things out...

...and if you should be interested in what is going on further (perhaps to get ideas for your own purposes) you might want to have a look on what Doede is going to test out in the near future...

enjoy...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 20, 2014, 11:06:13 PM
Stefan is really into it.  I'm very curious when you guys get the compare it to one of Doede's stock 8 stack. Also with Bernd's power supply.

All those shunt regulators is a lot of messing around to get them in. Not to mention the cost Guido charges, it is not a cheap exercise!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 20, 2014, 11:37:27 PM
Stefan is really into it.  I'm very curious when you guys get the compare it to one of Doede's stock 8 stack. Also with Bernd's power supply.

All those shunt regulators is a lot of messing around to get them in. Not to mention the cost Guido charges, it is not a cheap exercise!


Doede is very busy, he is in France and England at the moment and of course he would have very much "liked" to join the testing but it will not be possible for him to join the meeting, but later on...

well, I am the final judge only for myself, and I am not a preacher for others, but I told you already that Bernd's controlled power supply is the "absolute monster" and definitely "the" one to go, "enhencing" the sound by some 50% just in an unexpectable way and level..

this is "the" controlled power supply that has "won" the battle by far (one of the french guys said: "beaucoup plus de matière") "against" all those other power supplies having been tested side by side at our last session here (normal car batteries, big lorry batteries, different Mundorfs, Doede's own ones incl. Sowters, the new power supply by Jean)

unfortunately we will not have 8 stacks in a fortnight, but the testing will be o.k. because we have not only one deck of 1794 but twice four decks, the tweaked one from Stefan and my "virgin" one...

and the cost ? yes, you are right, but it really is rather small in comparison to be able at all to get that what is devlivered by Doede's DACs "onto the road"...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 21, 2014, 05:41:37 PM
Taken from the wigwam.

"I had the pleasure of having David,Juanacho, visit my house last night. The main aim of the evening was to compare his standard two board DDDAC with my shunt reg two board DDDC.
There were a couple of things to consider that would never make it a direct and fair comparison. The first of these being, the caps on the output of Davids DDDAC were literally brand new and never used, secondly Davids DDDAC was fitted with Audio Note resistors which are known to slightly smooth out the sound removing a slight edge in musical presentation of the standard resistors.
After a good old chin wag and a close comparrison of the two DDDACs we played a variety of music through my DDDAC first as it was already wired into my system. All sounded good and as expected. After 20-30 minutes and a glass of wine we popped in Davids DDDAC. Immediately the sound was a little shut in and somewhat slower. Again this could be due to the brand new caps. The mids were however, a little smoother and even which I enjoyed which is what the Audio Note resistors are known to offer.
I was just thinking about changing DDDACs again to my DAC to make a thorough comparison when my amp decided to glow red and blow up in a spectacular fashion which halted things.
It was good company and good wine and I also learned a thing or two about Davids knowledable approach to DIY"
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on March 21, 2014, 07:11:46 PM
Who is david? New diy nut
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 22, 2014, 09:39:01 AM
Some guy on hifiwigwam forum. His nick on there is Juancho.

Thread link: www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?88548-Very-good-sounding-Dac-kit (http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?88548-Very-good-sounding-Dac-kit)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on March 22, 2014, 10:20:44 AM
If these guys can hear the difference between resistors,   why are they still using electrolytics everywhere in their dacs?   ???  :-\   :-X
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on March 22, 2014, 11:21:04 AM
I guess the designer (Doede) believes they are needed (they being relateively high value, so polyprop/oil/films are out of the question), for the design to operate up to spec? 

I personally don't see electrolytic as being the root of all evil. Especially when they are not directly in the signal path (as the case for the DDDAC).  But they do still impart some effect to the performance of the DAC, thus choosing 'audiophile grade' caps as part of the kit :)

Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see. 

Thoughts?

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on March 22, 2014, 01:40:56 PM

Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see. 

Thoughts?
This is true, I often imagine what an R2Rs will sound like, with them removed. I have eliminated many electrolytic capacitors, via running the R2R valve output stage. But they are an often necessary evil.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on March 22, 2014, 09:13:43 PM
Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see. 

Thoughts?
Fair point.   There is soooo much raw goodness delivered by tape,  it sounds great despite all the electrolytics.

But they say R2R is even more amazing when they're ALL bypassed,  with the signal taken direct off the heads.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 05, 2014, 06:36:25 AM
well, things like this are totally new to me:

...but as Supersurfer uses exactly this "method" for his DDDAC1794 - which I will listen to tomorrow - I found it for ambitious DIYer absolutely necessary to link...

http://studiozey.com/woodencapacitor/index.html

for the corresponding pixes see reply 168

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 06, 2014, 11:35:44 PM
I'm sorry, but after some 15 or so hours of really most intensive hard core testing and listening I still have not yet "recovered" from the last session, but it all was superb fun, the last guests from England left at some 3 o'clock in the morning, but here is already a report from Supersurfer, bringing the results of the session already to the point quick like a flash of lightning, so if you might want to read this, go ahead and enjoy:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-147.html

and some pictures:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-148.html
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 08, 2014, 11:22:50 PM
yes, here it is, for all those who wanted to have a closer look onto Bernd's monster controlled power supply, now "finished" in a cabinet, weighing more than 20 kilograms:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2am445.jpg)

but please, for any further inquiries, go ahead and do not ask me, but Bernd directly:

thanks
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on April 08, 2014, 11:48:02 PM
Lift the skirt,   we want to peak inside.   8)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 08, 2014, 11:52:14 PM
I have already posted some pictures from the inside under No. 205 of this thread, I hope that helps?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on April 09, 2014, 06:49:41 AM
Yep, I see them.  In post 205, it looks like a temporary wooden case was used.

Was the content simply moved into the new case 'As-Is' ?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 09, 2014, 08:31:08 PM
Yep, I see them.  In post 205, it looks like a temporary wooden case was used.

Was the content simply moved into the new case 'As-Is' ?


the temporary wooden case is my actual version, and yes, the content of it was rebuilt 'As-Is', the only thing that Bernd has changed is an even more forceful power supply, so that it is able to handle as well and completely without problems the DDDAC1543 with 256 chips, so that the users, if they use both DACs - like me, will be in need of only "one" controlled power supply, just switching from one to the other DDDAC...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 12, 2014, 07:58:58 PM
... I think that the development and especially the results of regulated power supplies (not only for this DAC) are of common interest, so let me link to Stefan's result here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-177.html

No. 1766, or read it here:

"Hi,

So here are the pictures of my new power supply. It's quite elaborate so I needed to rearrange the complete layout. I put the wave IO on top of the Pi, I still use two streamers, the Alix and the Pi; Alix through Wave IO and Pi I2S connected. I like the Pi more. Just waiting for Russ White to release the cape for the BBB.

On to the supply: on the left side there is a big 200VA transformer (sec. 2x12V), a friend of mine had ordered these specially manufactured to order for use with other Dacs and CD players. This is a really awesome transformer!

It is a simple CLCLC supply using two Silmic 2200uf caps parallel and Lundahl filament chokes.

This supply surpasses all supplies I have used up to date, including the one from Bernd during the visit at Klaus!

It's been a long time since I had so much goose bumps listening to music

Advantages: dynamics, openness, forcefull, detailed, more space, did I mention dynamics?

This one will stay for sure!
The Salas supply is for the Pi and Wave IO.


Regards"

and here are his corresponding pixes so that you may have a look:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/4rffnn.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/3338j9w.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/20zcu4l.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on May 14, 2014, 06:01:56 PM
That power supply seems easy enough to build. 4 schottky diodes, a few elna silmics, 2 chokes and a big 200VA tranny.    Simple CLCLC design.   I should be able to build something similar. I have a pair of chokes and some caps. Just need a big tranny and the shcottky diodes.       It will be done...  sometime this year.    ;D
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on May 26, 2014, 06:24:47 PM
Interesting comparison between a tweaked DDDAC1794 to a stockish DDDAC1794 and a tweaked AudioNote KIT DAC 4.1 at a recent mini gtg.

The following taken directly from a link on diyaudio forum - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-192.html#post3939495 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-192.html#post3939495)

I always enjoy reading about other people’s get-to-gathers, so thought some might enjoy reading about ours.

Last night myself Mark (I) Verhoeven (idem forum name), Mark II (friend of Mark I) and Cees Pel had the privilege to be invited around to Stefan (Supersurfer) his place for a DAC comparison/listening session.

The equipment line-up for the test/comperisaon, we had in mind. was:

· Mark verhoeven’s,Audio Note Kit DAC 4.1 pretty tricked out NOS DAC, see picture below.
· Stefan’s DDDAC, 4x board DAC, balanced to single-ended “cap”less out , with Tentlabs shunts and own "hi-end" PSU.
· Cees Pel brought along a PSU he’s build for his own DDDAC implementation which unfortunately wasn’t ready yet, but Is promising to be something special as well.
· & my DDDAC, with 4x standard DAC boards, balanced to single-ended “cap”less out and a slightly modified standard 12Vdc supply.

The reference system used was Stefan’s superb sounding home grown DIY system, consisting of very special (looking and sounding) set of tube amps, which worked something like this (I’m personally not a tube-head, so please excuse any ignorant mistakes) :silver rock input transformer -> emissionlabs EML 20A mesh triod’s -> tamura interstage -> western electric VT-25 triode -> tamura interstages parallel -> EML AD1 triode parallel -> tamura output transformers and these were hooked up to Manger driver augmented with some Vifa kevlarwoofers, again in a home build enclosure.

So plenty of quality there to bring out the good and the bads in our respective DAC builds.

To boot, it also turned out Stefan had an extensive collection of well recorded reference tracks to listen too.

First off was my DDDAC build which meant I could get a feel for what Stefan’s system sounded like. We started off with a Pink Floyd DVD-A track, which we all know to death. Needless to say it sounded pretty great, dynamic and good soundstage, however it revealed a light bit of harshness to my ears and was lacking a bit of body in the midtones. We mainly attributed this to my use of Caddock IV resistors and thinking about it afterwards might also be due my choice of signal path cabling (skin effect?). (I suspect some of the quibbles where in the recording too..) I learned a lot in those first 5 minutes, right there and then.


(http://i58.tinypic.com/29llmx0.jpg)

Next up was Stefans DDDAC. It was quite a remarkable difference. The same track sounded even more dynamic and became more spacious, the tonal quality was better too. Some tracks later (I think it was: Miles Davis - Complete Live At Plugged Nickel 1965 (1995)) the soundstage was simply amazing. The occasional Goosebumps moment of being teleported back to being “there”.., if you know what I mean. Simply superb. I think Stefan is definitely evolving the DDAC in the right direction and the good news is there is still plenty of scope/ideas for further improvements..

Last up was Mark’s Audio Note DAC (4.1), another highly regarded DAC design but a totally different proposition based around a single AD1865N NOS chip and a tube/transformer output stage. In my ears the tonal quality of this DAC was superb, very relaxed and natural. However, especially compared to Stefans’s DDDAC the dynamics and presence was not the same, also the soundstage was not as open/wide/deep with the AN DAC. None of which should come as a complete surprise considering the inherent differences of the designs.


(http://i62.tinypic.com/fwup21.jpg)

Especially when Stefan switched back to his DDDAC we were all quite convinced this was a step up. However there seems to still be scope to get the tonal balance dialled in further by playing around with the type of capacitors in the design.

Cees his PSU had some interesting features too, like a little hand wound HF filtering coil in the place of the fuse holder, Mills resistors some Ebony encapsulated caps, check out the picture below.. , years of experience shows, should be very intresting to see what he makes of the DDDAC.


(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ryj39c.jpg)

Thanks again to Stefan for inviting us and for a very enjoyable evening.

Hopefully we can do it again, maybe next time to compare Field coil PSU’s :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 29, 2014, 09:57:45 PM
...there is some interesting "excursion" by "eduard" from The Netherlands regarding transformers which I think might perhaps be of use here (and not only within this context):

#2164 and #2166

you will find them as well as corresponding links here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-217.html
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on August 18, 2014, 07:28:21 PM
...well, here are some new test reports especially regarding the implementation of Tent shunts and more by Doede himself:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-250.html

no: 2941
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 21, 2014, 10:18:09 PM
In all fairness, Doede did not install the 3.3V TentShunt in the optimal position. What's the point having Shunt when it must go through a couple of 47uf electrolytic in order to get to chip Vcc?
I will be in the position to provide honest feedback when my 11-Stacks are finalised with 47 Tents Shunts. Still waiting for the remain Sanyo OSCon, should not be too long now.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/19/yra9yrej.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/19/yzara7y8.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: dddac on August 24, 2014, 06:48:37 AM
Hi Chanh,

just to make sure, I installed the 3,3 volt shunts directly at the chip. There were no couple of 47 uF in the way....  Are you still planning to do listening tests with and without the 3,3 Volt shunts as only changed parameter? That would be the real honest feedback. Changing several things at the same time will never make 100% clear what really made the difference.

I am really looking forward to more people doing this test with only one change at a time. Last week I had independent feedback from Marcel for Switzerland, who removed the 3,3 volts ten shunts and replaced them with LDOs again. He is using the 8 volts at the analog side of the dac and is also pleased with this. I think there is no discussion about this improvement anymore...

don't get me wrong, this is not a discussion who is wrong or who is right. I just reported back what I heard and what some else has done. I know you spent a lot of money on the dac and specially on the tent shunts. for that reason it would make most sense to this in two steps, wouldn't you agree? if you install all in one step, you for sure will have a hell of a dac, but knowing what made the true difference is something I am sure also you are interested to know, not only me ;-)

look forward to your reports !

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on August 24, 2014, 03:56:38 PM
Hi Chanh,

just to make sure, I installed the 3,3 volt shunts directly at the chip. There were no couple of 47 uF in the way....  Are you still planning to do listening tests with and without the 3,3 Volt shunts as only changed parameter? That would be the real honest feedback. Changing several things at the same time will never make 100% clear what really made the difference.

I am really looking forward to more people doing this test with only one change at a time. Last week I had independent feedback from Marcel for Switzerland, who removed the 3,3 volts ten shunts and replaced them with LDOs again. He is using the 8 volts at the analog side of the dac and is also pleased with this. I think there is no discussion about this improvement anymore...

don't get me wrong, this is not a discussion who is wrong or who is right. I just reported back what I heard and what some else has done. I know you spent a lot of money on the dac and specially on the tent shunts. for that reason it would make most sense to this in two steps, wouldn't you agree? if you install all in one step, you for sure will have a hell of a dac, but knowing what made the true difference is something I am sure also you are interested to know, not only me ;-)

look forward to your reports !

Yes, finally a post with some measured sanity.

We have had endless long posts here of various DDDAC changes and mods with no real logical approach or explanation.
To me they just read like a DDDAC sales brochure but offer virtually zero real information WRT mods that might work in
another application. 

As the DAC's designer you well know that there are many details that must be addressed, separately to fully and fairly evaluate any
design change such as this case, a shunt reg.

For evaluation of a shunt reg here's an example of things I would be testing in isolation:

a/ is the shunt reg super low impedance but low bandwidth?
b/ is the shunt reg a higher impedance but very wide bandwidth
c/ what bypass caps were used
d/ were there combinations of bypass caps, IOW say a film cap in parallel with an elecro. This can have a big effect
e/ where is the shunt reg located? Is it right on the DAC or further away?
f/ what sort of grounding is the shunt reg tied to? For a DAC like 1794 there is lots of HF content so is there a ground plane, how good is it?
g/ Does the bypassing cap location make a difference?

Most tinkerers don't have a really good understanding of these finer points and just proceed into having fun modding their DAC's - which is
great in the spirit of DIY  But as such the results often don't often translate reliably to something else.

Another example is the multiple paralleling of 1794 DAC's. This technique is very well known and has been used for many years to, for
example get lower noise from transistors etc.

However for me again there has been no real scientific evaluation of the advantages - a lot of effort and cost goes into stacking boards up.
Looking at the distortion results of DDDAC, they are very poor and don't come close to getting what the chip is capable of. So in the
case of designing a current output DAC with a passive OP stage we have compromised the DAC's linearity by a huge margin. You can use
one DAC and get 20 x lower distortion without having to use opamps. Maybe the DAC sounds good -because- of this higher distortion,
it would not be the first time.

Maybe the multiple parallel DACs sound better because of higher OP current drive - but then we can get huge current drive with one
DAC and a simple OP circuit.

For me, the first thing I would do is evaluate what the change in sound is with 1794 OP voltage swing. The 1794 does not like to have
OP voltage swing, it causes a lot of distortion. So I would make a test jig up and vary the OP resistance and see how this affects sound.
I can almost guarantee that the more voltage swing on the DAC OP will translate to a richer and more musical sound, because of the added
distortion.

Once I had done this I would then evaluate the optimum driving impedance for the OP transformer. Transformers work best with a certain
drive impedance and also they usually need a snubber on the OP. Looking at the square wave performance of yours, it has overshoot so
needs to have a snubber installed. You should be able to get "perfect squares" from a transformer with no overshoot.

You might well find that a single well optimised 1794 driving a transformer that is also optimised will sound better than a stack
of 16 that are not optimized.

Food for thought.

cheers

Terry
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 25, 2014, 04:09:44 AM
 ;D  The DIY effect, if one is good then 10 must be great! errrrrrrr hmmm, well put Z, fine if you have all the measuring equipment but enthusiasm usually makes up the bulk of the design decisions for enthusiasts!
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 25, 2014, 02:00:45 PM
......
You might well find that a single well optimised 1794 driving a transformer that is also optimised will sound better than a stack of 16 that are not optimized.
Hi Terry,

Lots of useful technical infor there!  ;)
Btw, unsure if the design is optimal per individual standard, but I do use Sowters Transformer as output and could never go back without them.

Hi Chanh,
.......
look forward to your reports !
Hi Doede,

Perhaps my wording w.r.t the word "honest" was misleading? I think the word "unbiased" is more appropriate here. It was never intended to critic your facts/findings. I think I must have read your post in a hurry where my interpretation was you installed the 3.3V Shunt at the stock regulator.
Hopefully your weren't offended?
I will post my findings on a single DAC with and without Tent Shunts.

;D  The DIY effect, if one is good then 10 must be great! errrrrrrr hmmm, well put Z, fine if you have all the measuring equipment but enthusiasm usually makes up the bulk of the design decisions for enthusiasts!
V
I think you are contradicting yourself here Steve! You have heard my setup with 4-stacks and again with 8. According to you, there were noticeable improvement(s) "time, phase, and imaging". "A more of analog sounding" with 8 stacks. If I recalled correctly, you have also mentioned "use your ears not measurement". After-all, this whole audio hobby is so subjectively biased. What's a good/excellent sounding DAC? Will that excellent DAC be universal perceive as excellent to all audience/system setup(s)...., and engineering measurement? If so the ESS Sabre chip should be outstanding chip of all since on paper its measurement are absolutely second to none but yet some found it too clinical.  :D
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 25, 2014, 03:27:30 PM
No contradiction here Chanh, merely echoing the thoughts of Zen and saying it is up to the individual if he/she wants to continue down a path of replacing parts in a new design and experimenting.  Engineers take a different slant as they are usually constrained more by costs.   I applaud people who take a design to its logical conclusion for them not criticise.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on August 25, 2014, 06:51:56 PM
If so the ESS Sabre chip should be outstanding chip of all since on paper its measurement are absolutely second to none but yet some found it too clinical.  :D
Hey Chanh, good post.  I have never heard a dddac, and hope to one day.   Do you have the super power supply?

WRT to ESS, I honestly feel that no one has completely unlocked the potential of the Sabre chip. There are a zillion configurable parameters.

Interestingly, ESS use a combination of design and listening tests to validate their theories.  They openly admit to using people with "educated ears" and that their designers generally cant hear the differences that some audiophiles can.  :)

Personally,  I reckon peal everything back to the basics, and get genuine unaltered single bit performance to where it needs to be.   That means a different path to both the dddac and kdac choices.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 25, 2014, 09:55:50 PM
.......
I agreed with you here! Doede in his design allows room for parts/components improvement . This does not mean his design wasn't optimal, to my ears it sound great hence much love and funding were investmented.  ;)
Hey Chanh, good post. ......
Thanks Ozmillsy!
I think DAC chip is only a third of the equation, implementation and quality parts are the rest of that magic formula!  :)
My tweaked DDDAC surely will be powering by raw unregulated chokes input. The EI transformer(s) were from Vitavox! This Man has ears, trained/experience ears those are!  :-*
Nonetheless, if the negotiation falls, I will replace the power transformer to 300VA R-Core.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/23/myne9y5y.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/23/hynu6u4y.jpg)

DAC at 11-Decks prior dissembled for the Tent Shunts mod.
 (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/upa8e3ed.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/pamyge5u.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/qususyma.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/u3ymezup.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/16/qaby5e4y.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on August 25, 2014, 10:12:05 PM
Chanh,

congratulations on your achievements...

bravo !!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on August 25, 2014, 10:20:48 PM
Hi Terry,

Lots of useful technical infor there!  ;)
Btw, unsure if the design is optimal per individual standard, but I do use Sowters Transformer as output and could never go back without them.


Yes I am also a fan of transformers - done right.

Quote

 After-all, this whole audio hobby is so subjectively biased. What's a good/excellent sounding DAC? Will that excellent DAC be universal perceive as excellent to all audience/system setup(s)...., and engineering measurement? If so the ESS Sabre chip should be outstanding chip of all since on paper its measurement are absolutely second to none but yet some found it too clinical.  :D

Hence my comment WRT the 1974, as used in the DDDAC allows it to swing considerable OP voltage swing which creates a significant amount of added distortion.
So the question is - does the DDDAC sound better because of this added distortion or in spite of it? How is this added disortion affecting the sound? Personally I
would want to know this and the answer is easily revealed by, as I suggested, using a simple Opamp OP stage and varying the resistance feeding it. Yes we know
people don't like opamps but here we are just using it as a constant to evaluate a certain property of the DAC. Knowing the outcome of this is a very handy 'tuning'
tool. There is often indeed a certain OP swing that is the right balance between musicality and detail or accuracy. Maybe it will just sound better with no OP swing.

But invariably, hi end designers don't do these simple tests because they are maybe a boring deviation from the usual, regardless of their usefulness.

This brings us to Sabre - it is certainly one of the best measuring DACs but there are many things lurking inside the Sabre more than a simple resistor weighted DAC
that affect it's sound such as various digital filters, a sample rate converter, etc etc. There are people who feel that Sabre with all that extra Tom Foolery disabled and a
good valve OP stage is one of the best DACs out there.

So my general advice is hold the audiophile hyperbole descriptions of mods and their sonic effects and post more details that will help us to better understand how the
mods were specifically applied. As such we can have a better idea if they will translate to other designs that we are doing.


cheers

Terry


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on August 25, 2014, 10:26:52 PM

I think DAC chip is only a third of the equation, implementation and quality parts are the rest of that magic formula!  :)
My tweaked DDDAC surely will be powering by raw unregulated chokes input. The EI transformer(s) were from Vitavox! This Man has ears, trained/experience ears those are! 


That certainly mirrors my experience in that in many applications, very good RCLC or CLC or CLCLC choke filtering was superior to any active regulation.

But obviously on something like a high speed DaC like 1974 you need some sort of local regulation near the DAC chip... (maybe you don't?)
Then the question is which regulation sounds the best / most musical and what type of capacitor bypassing works best with it.

Terry
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 25, 2014, 11:31:37 PM
Terry,

I run unregulated raw PS but having Locally regulated shunts right at the DAC chip. 3.3V Tent Shunt is right at the leg(s) of Vdd. Similarly 8V Tent Shunt is at the Analog side but filter by 0.1uf Wima prior to Vcc. I also use Sanyo OSCon for digital as filter caps, Elna Silmic 2 RFS for analog. Digital and Analog ps line is separately wired. Will post more photos if interest?

Someone reported with great result from Sanyo Oscon caps at analog Vcom. Appreciate your inputs

Cheers,
Chanh
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on August 26, 2014, 01:33:27 AM
with all respect and I know you understand me that way that I do not want to tap on anybody's feet (if so, I excuse in advance), I admire everybody's ideas, contributions, skills, and results... and joy...

but I have mine as well (results)...

there are obviously five main columns which define the sound  in everybody's (DD)DAC-system, each varying considerably:

1. the input (WAVEIO, Raspberry pi... and its different programs)

2. the (DD)DAC (with different amount of chips/stacks)

3. the power supply (battery or others...)

4. the output (capacitor or transformer) and

5. the "new" shunt regulators (with all its different kinds and different kinds of implementation and all other different kind of tweaks)

well, to every topic there are different "opinions", of course, personally one cannot have everything, and nobody has experienced everything regarding every single specific topic, and so within this context and the development of all these different kinds of (DD)DAC-constellations everybody has come to his own results and conclusions, and I enjoy reading these very much...

...so, when talking about "results" they on one hand differ (see for example shunts) and on the other hand have become generally agreed (see for example transformers)... the latter results are that decidedly posted, that strong, that it reminds me of the proverb of how good or bad a Grateful Dead-show was judged when telling somebody who missed it: "100.000 Deadheads can't go wrong".... so it has to be like that... and nobody may "dare" to say anything against it...

but I do... "against" transformers... against the transformers that we had here (of course we had not all, but three different versions from TriodeDick (which were quite impressive) and the ones from Doede (which were impressive as well)...

yes, impressive they were, but more or less detracting from the pure signal...

does it "sound" to you ? Does it sound to anybody else ? Or do you still get as a response that what they are generally claimed with as "anemic", "steril", "artifical", "digital".... when final "results" are judged...  ????

well, to be honest - to me - exactly this must not be... it is the transformers and the (insufficient) power supply...

(you might want to read in addition my report from last year regarding that topic here):

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/09/reinhards-new-essay-about-iso-usb-and.html

...and both in combination... which have such an influence on the sound that it is exactly no longer "analogue" and - I have to agree - with transformers (the ones that I know of) this way inevitably leads to such descriptions...

I know that I am nearly alone with my opinion, as is with "perfect squares", but - be aware - I am talking about results not theory... and yes,  it's my own experiences (and Klaus's, and not only about the DDDACs but other DACs as well...) and one must not be an engineer to drive a car or an oenologist to taste a wine or an acoustic or electronic engineer... to be "qualified" to talk about results...
 
so, I will not focus on the DDDAC here, there is enough said, neither will I focus on the different kinds of power supplies, I talked already a lot about power supplies here and there... see for example post 225 here and on "ADC/DAC losses" post 29... (regarding power supply at the moment Stefan seems to be "leading" the field getting goose bumps while listening to his own - I have yet to hear this) nor on the shunt regulation, which is another "100.000 Deadheads can't go wrong"-phenomenon, but obviously has not yet checked out "scientifically" enough - but they are working on it, and I am waiting for the results...

no, I will focus on the output... there are different ways to approach of course and there are different results, quite naturally. I will just talk about my own results, and Klaus's, we tested together, for six weeks, at the beginning of the year. We kept our results so far away from the public in order not to tap on anyone's feet... we know that there has flown in a lot of know-how and time and work and skills to bring things to the point, and we have deepest respect for that.... so we kept quiet, so far...

...but time has come now to possibly help the one or other out of this "trap" in which some might have fallen (regarding that "clinical", "steril", "anemic" effect), let me tell you (again) about our results. We have tested the following in all kinds of combinations (not only side by side, but combined with everything possible (we even used only parts of Doede's own Sowter-monster-DDDAC in order to be able to experience in detail the effect(s) just from every single exchange), and we did it again and again, and with all time needed to really verify the results for ourselves:

1. DDDAC 1543 with 60 and 120 chips

2. DDDAC1794 with one and four decks, and Doede's personal eight deck DDDAC (standard version) with Sowter transformers and caps

3. normal car battery with some ten kg, heavy lorry batteries with some 40 kg

4. normal uncontrolled power supply, Bernd's controlled power supply, Mundorf controlled power supply, and Doede's own 5 and 12 Volt power supplies

and the quintessence of the results was: one 1794 DDDAC-deck with Bernd's controlled power supply was that much better than Doede's eight deck DAC with Sowters and his own power supplies and everything else switchable on it (or later on Jean's own PSU or the Mundorf PSU and others for that matter), that it must be heard to be believed. It is here where there is "no way back". Why ? Because you get digital that analogue that you hardly any longer care for the source...

... and this result is permanently valid not only to my ears but Klaus's as well, to get that what you are "looking" for, an "analogue" sounding DAC, according to what we have found out you have to get rid of the transformers... probably our caps are ultimately not the best, but for this comparison in this specific case it is not necessary, but it already on this level reveals much more "natural" sound not only that way that the human brain is not only less affected and that you want to hear more and longer but revealing exactly that what is needed for natural (analogue) results... the differences between an original and a reproduction indeed become rather neglectable... and you know we do not have the worst platforms to check this all out...

not to belittle anyone else's performance(s), no, just the contrary, I encourage you to move on with your skills, but personally I definitely do not want to listen to the "sound" of those transformers that I know of... perhaps it is the imperfection of its squares causing pollution, keeping the origianl signal away from sublime purity...

you are the DIYers, "D" it further...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on August 26, 2014, 07:09:41 AM
:)   contentious position you've taken R,  you are entitled to your opinion.

But I would just like to say (before anyone else does),  that transformers can and do sound different.

It is like selecting 3 different el34 tubes, implementing each in the same spot, and determining that none of them improve the sound and it goes backwards.   And the conclusion drawn is; tubes are no good dont use them.     No, no, no.

For tubes to work well you need;
- well designed circuit (above my head)
- the right selection of tube brand/model to get the sound right.

Transformers are just like that. IMO.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on August 26, 2014, 09:40:55 AM

but I do... "against" transformers... against the transformers that we had here (of course we had not all, but three different versions from TriodeDick (which were quite impressive) and the ones from Doede (which were impressive as well)...

yes, impressive they were, but more or less detracting from the pure signal...

does it "sound" to you ? Does it sound to anybody else ? Or do you still get as a response that what they are generally claimed with as "anemic", "steril", "artifical", "digital".... when final "results" are judged...  ????

well, to be honest - to me - exactly this must not be... it is the transformers and the (insufficient) power supply...

(you might want to read in addition my report from last year regarding that topic here):

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/09/reinhards-new-essay-about-iso-usb-and.html

...and both in combination... which have such an influence on the sound that it is exactly no longer "analogue" and - I have to agree - with transformers (the ones that I know of) this way inevitably leads to such descriptions...

I know that I am nearly alone with my opinion, as is with "perfect squares", but - be aware - I am talking about results not theory... and yes,  it's my own experiences (and Klaus's, and not only about the DDDACs but other DACs as well...) and one must not be an engineer to drive a car or an oenologist to taste a wine or an acoustic or electronic engineer... to be "qualified" to talk about results...


R,

WRT transformers, you can not really make a gross judgement on them until you know a/ how to properly set them up b/ which type to use.

There are many brands of transformers Lundahl, Jensen, Cinemag, etc, and many types of design such as Input, Output, multi filar etc etc.
To get the proper performance you need to know how to set them up. There is the age old story of a famous Neve recording console where
a well known recording engineer picked a few channels as not sounding right. As it transpired these channels did not have the correct snubbing
network on their OP and were ringing. This is well above 20kHz.

Ironically, looking at the plots of DDDACs 'perfect squares' you have not correctly implemented the transformers because they do exactly that -
they have ringing on square wave response.

Further to this a big part of the sound that you hear is actually the driving impedance, ie; DAC OP impedance driving transformer. Because the DAC
has a high OP impedance this causes the transformer to have increased low frequency distortion and this is part of what you hear.

We haven't even got to core materials, winding design etc. So probably a good idea to get someone to help you a/ implement the transformer
correctly, b/ show you how to measure it c/ choose the right transformer and then make that judgement again.

You might consider that most of the best recordings ever made were done through multiple transformers.

Personally I love them. In pro audio these days there is very much a transformer resurgence, often with switcheable features
like core material (steel / nickel) to achieve a more / less analog sound. A lot of the old recordings we love have a warmth the can be
attributed in part to the steel transformer core material. 

I would suggest with DDAC for a start, run a 10kHz square wave through the transformer OP. If the transformer is set up correctly
there should be -no- overshoot or ringing at all. The square wave should be perfect but with some rounding of initial edge.

This is where where 'perfect squares' -are- important.

Quote

so, I will not focus on the DDDAC here, there is enough said, neither will I focus on the different kinds of power supplies, I talked already a lot about power supplies here and there... see for example post 225 here and on "ADC/DAC losses" post 29... (regarding power supply at the moment Stefan seems to be "leading" the field getting goose bumps while listening to his own - I have yet to hear this) nor on the shunt regulation, which is another "100.000 Deadheads can't go wrong"-phenomenon, but obviously has not yet checked out "scientifically" enough - but they are working on it, and I am waiting for the results...


It is tricky just to categorize 'shunt regs' all together and make a whole sale judgement on them - it's much more complex than that and somewhat beyond
what I think you understand. A big part of the 'sound' of a regulator has to do with it's transient response and how much feedback is used in the reg itself.
So just for shunt regs we can have many variations from high OP impedance to very low. Generally the higher OP Z ones will have wider bandwidth and better
transient response and the low OP Z ones can have poorer transient response. So here is another instance where your 'perfect squares' are important - the regs
ability to handle 'squares' with low overshoot or ringing. Of course you can't measure this on DAC OP, you generally just hear it.   

Quote
   

...but time has come now to possibly help the one or other out of this "trap" in which some might have fallen (regarding that "clinical", "steril", "anemic" effect), let me tell you (again) about our results. We have tested the following in all kinds of combinations (not only side by side, but combined with everything possible (we even used only parts of Doede's own Sowter-monster-DDDAC in order to be able to experience in detail the effect(s) just from every single exchange), and we did it again and again, and with all time needed to really verify the results for ourselves:

and the quintessence of the results was: one 1794 DDDAC-deck with Bernd's controlled power supply was that much better than Doede's eight deck DAC with Sowters and his own power supplies and everything else switchable on it (or later on Jean's own PSU or the Mundorf PSU and others for that matter), that it must be heard to be believed. It is here where there is "no way back". Why ? Because you get digital that analogue that you hardly any longer care for the source...


This is exactly what I was referring to before.

Not much point going to heroic attempts stacking 8 DAC's when just 1 done right can be as good or better. So the question is what is Bernd's power supply?

Quote

not to belittle anyone else's performance(s), no, just the contrary, I encourage you to move on with your skills, but personally I definitely do not want to listen to the "sound" of those transformers that I know of... perhaps it is the imperfection of its squares causing pollution, keeping the origianl signal away from sublime purity...


So in -your- case the transformers were inferior. However in the case where the right transformer was used and it was implemented correctly the results may well be
opposite.

OK enough long posts.

cheers

Terry




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 26, 2014, 01:27:55 PM
with all respect and I ......
Hi R,

Thanks for sharing with us your observations! There is no doubt you are right at your own perspective. Each setup has its own natural synergy, hence would respond somewhat varies confining to that specific synergy, I think.

Btw, were you using a preamp, if so what made (tube or SS, if SS was it Class A or B or D)??
Similarly with the poweramps? Without visibility of the rest of your setup downstream, is difficult to align to your feedback w.r.t output transformer!?! I said this because I, Myself, also carried out extensive experiments with output stage from DDDAC, with transformers, varies Caps (Including Duelunds all types, Alex, VSF, Cast copper), and of-course direct between neg and pos. at the end of the day, that pair of Sowter worth very penny to my ears! Having say that, I do not agree my observations are correct neither! :D

Cheers,
Chanh
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on August 26, 2014, 07:22:19 PM
well, thanks for all your contributions...  this seems the right way to move things further - together... the one and/or the other way... it can only become better...

if I take "only" the DDDAC there are quite some people who have come to really superb results and with such an amount of knowledge and skills and ambition that I become really envious on them...

... as it is like that I can do nothing but invite them... and I did it in april this year to visit and share their results with us ...

and they gladly did... if you are interested you might want to see the report from Stefan from The Netherlands regarding that matter

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-147.html

post 1468

(I have to admit that I would not be able to report on that level of knowledge that he is capable writing of...)... in addition we had dwjames with us, Cees Pel and others... (all very advanced DIYers...)

if you might want to have a further look, then go to:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-148.html

post 1472

post 1474

post 1911 dwjames experiences

post 1766 Stefan's (Supersurfer) new power supply

post 1569 a guy from the US preferring no output transformers as well with eight decks and shunts...

post 1499 regarding Bernd's power supply

to me it is utmost fun to experience and share all our results for those who are able to try out and probably may take advantage of...

the thing with the development of Bernd's controlled power supply is that one does not always "reach" the best sound if strictly following physical laws (making it for example quickest way possible)... as can be heard in direct comparison with Jean's and Doede's own power supplies...

pardon me for being that "open", but it is the result that counts, either getting  - with more or less one and the same DDDAC - critics as "anemic", "steril", "digital" and so on or getting "wet panties from copious, multiple ejaculations " (Stefano) when listening (already three years ago and rather far away from the actual level:)

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2010/11/gotorama-leau-de-cologne-part-2.html#uds-search-results

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 26, 2014, 08:26:53 PM
Great stuff R! I will surely have another go with direct against transformer and report back. Perhaps some of you here can join?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on August 26, 2014, 08:31:07 PM
Great stuff R! I will surely have another go with direct against transformer and report back. Perhaps some of you here can join?

we are sitting in the same boat...

and I very much appreciate your absolute pioneering...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on August 27, 2014, 07:46:03 AM
Quote
getting "wet panties from copious, multiple ejaculations " (Stefano)

 ;D   lol.   I am not sure this adds any credibility to the work done or the results achieved,  but it sure is entertaining.   Haha      :P

I can honestly say I have never experienced that level of hifi gratification.  8)

:)


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on August 27, 2014, 09:09:35 AM
Great stuff R! I will surely have another go with direct against transformer and report back. Perhaps some of you here can join?

Chanh,

What is your current setup WRT number of DACs, OP stage and IV resistor?

Also do you have any info on the Sowter transformer, it appears shrouded in mystery.

cheers

Terry
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 27, 2014, 10:54:32 AM
Chanh,

What is your current setup WRT number of DACs, OP stage and IV resistor?

Also do you have any info on the Sowter transformer, it appears shrouded in mystery.
Hi Terry,

I have previously had Tuyen's 4 decks DDDAC here in exceed 3 or more Months. Along with KDAC, and few others including the top of the range Accuphase SACD player. The whole duration of DAC experimenting on my personal setup, which were Conrad Johson CT6 mod with Duelunds and AN Tantulum resisters, Bob Carver Cherries with similar components swapped, and found the 4-Decks DDDAC was best compromise. There were no doubt each DAC, has its own specialities where I could appreciated the beautiful analog mid and overall IMO of the KDAC but I thought I hears more from DDDAC. This is beside the point though I thought it gives better understand of my DDDAC direction.

W.r.t your queries, currently am doing a mod with my 11-Decks post experimenting and have had a gtg here at my shed between 8 vs 11. I was surprised to learn 11-Decks yet improved again with micro-dynamic, imaging and certainly more depth and width to the sound. The rest were subtle. Note this is based on standard stock kits without DAC board modification.
W.r.t  I/V resisters, based on my experience with my setup for my poweramps and preamp mod(s), I learnt AN Tantulum give much better clarity, better transparency, and certainly 3D sound imaging, where I appreciate these attributes greatly. Hence I am using AN Tantulum non-magnetic as I/V.
I use Sowter transformer as output, I think mine are 1:1 ratio ones. This give me the smoothness of an analog sounding without compromise too much on dynamic, and overall sound quality. Some might find it is otherwise and I respect that too.
Note - I have not experiment with other output trannies other than the recommended from the designer himself. All infor can be found http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_output.html]

Quote
Ratio: 2.000
Turns: Prim 240 / Sec 480
Core: Gapped Mumetal, Package: Mumetal Can, Termination: Color coded leads
GENLOAD @20 Hz Sec. SC: 10 ohms Max
GENLOAD @20 Hz Sec. OC: 429 ohms Min
LEVEL for THD=0.5% @ 20 Hz: 10.2 dBu Min
Primary inductance (H): 3.4 H Min
Primary resistance: 1.6 ohms Max
Secondary resistance: 35 ohms Max

Note the current mod are;
1. Digital;
bypass caps are Vishay 68nf
Resisters are AN Tantulum and Shinkoh where applicable
Sanyo OSCon SP and SEPC as filter caps where applicable
3.3 Tent Shunt regulater right at Vdd
DAC ps filter reister is Kiwame 2W 1% 10R

2. Analog;
All caps are Elna Silmic 2
8V Tent Shunt Regulater right at Vcc but filter by 0.1uf Wima
DAC ps filter reister is Kiwame 2W 1% 10R

Your technical inputs are greatful! ;)

Best,
Chanh

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 27, 2014, 12:16:58 PM
No mystery for Sowter transformers Zen, they have been in business for many years since 1941 I beleive.  A web search will find them near Ipswich back in the old country.  I believe the Son has taken over in the last decade so a lot more involvement in Audio products.  They offer good products and yet avoid the tiffany price tags.

I use an 11k primary output transformer in one of my SE 211 amps and its good.

V

http://www.sowter.co.uk/contact.php

sales@sowter.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 1473 252794
Fax: +44 (0) 1473 236188

E A Sowter Ltd. The Boatyard, Cullingham Road, IPSWICH IP1 2EG ENGLAND
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 27, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
A closer look at two 8V Tent Shunt on DAC board. Installing these are pain in the a$$! :D
Each board has in total 4 shunt regs, one digital and one analog on each channel.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/27/a5atape7.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/27/a3yra8y6.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on August 27, 2014, 07:15:41 PM
as I could not exactly remember what kind of different transformers had been used in detail in our tests within the last year or so I surfed the net and I wasn't aware that TriodeDick had already reported about his results regarding the following transformers with measurement specs (and he says: "meten is weten", which means "to measure is to know"...)

because of the dutch language: there are five parts with different amount of pages, the start is here:

http://www.audio-creative.nl/hifi/dddac-1794-nos-diy-dac-deel-1/

1. Cinemag 15/15B

2. Lundahl LL1690

3. Magnequest B7-10K:10K

4. Sowter

and yes, within this context the Sowters within our tests here were the clear "winners"...(you might want to have a look at the different pictures regarding the implementation and measurement results...)

http://www.audio-creative.nl/hifi/dddac-1794-nos-diy-dac-deel-5/

(pages 1, 2 and three for the different types...)

I am just wondering: there are people who prefer caps or not, and there are people who prefer transformers or not...

in both cases this appears to me as "curing the symptom"...

so, should/could/would it be possible to "erase the cause" in avoiding the necessity to alter anything "afterwards", creating a circuit in which both are not necessary at all ?

if this question is stupid then don't care...

as you may have read, TriodeDick is on the transformer-side: " Ja, een trafo is in deze applicatie beter op zijn plek dan een uitgangscondensator, dat hoef niemand me meer te vertellen…" which is translated something like that: "Yes, a trafo within this application is better implemented than an output cap, nobody needs to tell me about that..."

well, to be fair, neither Doede nor Triodedick have listened to Klaus's and my results so far to be able to think different...

anyway: quintessence (as was for example with the bass horns): we have to try everything out by ourselves...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 28, 2014, 08:13:14 PM
Here you go Chanh, a useful calculator for working out many parameters for power supplies, I like the LC calc, easy to use  :)

http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amplifier-calculators/LC-ripple-filter/
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on August 28, 2014, 08:46:32 PM
Quote

"...but time has come now to possibly help the one or other out of this "trap" in which some might have fallen (regarding that "clinical", "steril", "anemic" effect), let me tell you (again) about our results. We have tested the following in all kinds of combinations (not only side by side, but combined with everything possible (we even used only parts of Doede's own Sowter-monster-DDDAC in order to be able to experience in detail the effect(s) just from every single exchange), and we did it again and again, and with all time needed to really verify the results for ourselves:

    and the quintessence of the results was: one 1794 DDDAC-deck with Bernd's controlled power supply was that much better than Doede's eight deck DAC with Sowters and his own power supplies and everything else switchable on it (or later on Jean's own PSU or the Mundorf PSU and others for that matter), that it must be heard to be believed. It is here where there is "no way back". Why ? Because you get digital that analogue that you hardly any longer care for the source... "

End of quote

Quote:

"This is exactly what I was referring to before.

Not much point going to heroic attempts stacking 8 DAC's when just 1 done right can be as good or better. So the question is what is Bernd's power supply?

End of Quote

not to cause any misunderstandings because of the insufficiency of my descriptions regarding our results: all the posivitve advantages regarding the multiplying of the decks (as with the chips with the DDDAC1543) occured nevertheless and were identical in every constellation, they definitely remained the same... they ameliorated the sound in a way - to my ears - never ever been heard...

the constellation in getting the "best" result just with one deck was the platform to get into HiFi heaven, and with four and eight decks still got much better, and as Chanh already pointed out, the positive effects do not stop at eight decks, with his 11 decks he gets even more "better results"....

thanks a lot Chanh, for having tested and still testing this all out, I hardly can stand in my shoes to listen to this the other day...

I like those hints, but regarding possible "faults" or "sub-optimal" implementations of transformers or anything else we personally have no chance to make it "better", regarding this topic, we can only trust and rely on the results of our electronic engineers Doede and TriodeDick who were collegues at university of Utrecht... and we are very very glad about that...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on August 28, 2014, 10:07:33 PM
Here you go Chanh, a useful calculator for working out many parameters for power supplies, I like the LC calc, easy to use  :)

http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amplifier-calculators/LC-ripple-filter/
V
Cheers Steve! I have 2 x 50mH choke, there seems no value smaller than 1H.
Are you keen for another visit once the DDDAC is up?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on August 28, 2014, 10:12:05 PM
Here you go Chanh, a useful calculator for working out many parameters for power supplies, I like the LC calc, easy to use  :)

http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amplifier-calculators/LC-ripple-filter/
V

That's very handy. Thanks for sharing V.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on August 28, 2014, 11:54:12 PM
 :) Are you keen for another visit once the DDDAC is up?

Yup sure am.
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on August 31, 2014, 09:16:17 PM
Cheers Steve! I have 2 x 50mH choke, there seems no value smaller than 1H.
Are you keen for another visit once the DDDAC is up?
count me in with teagle
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 01, 2014, 06:47:49 PM
Should not be too long now Mario! Will get you, Teagle and Vita for planning approval?! :D
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/01/25f432be75ddf200b4efb46ccab7f0d1.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/01/5748e647afb596d1beceeabca561559e.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/01/19c73134ad0c5b257dfcac17a03e2a29.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/01/df606ef540d1c8db682b60f393ae896d.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/01/ad1726d5aede57f97b7df68eb2510b34.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/01/bb0657d9f70b87742031d233de96a736.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 03, 2014, 04:46:58 AM
my deepest respect and congratulations in having finished your (so far) DDDAC1794... and with this managed to enter your admirable work as a "special project" on Doede's homepage.... wow !!!

if Bernd's controlled power supply would not be that heavy (some 20 kg) I would not hesitate to send it to you for testing purposes... when you will be testing please keep in mind that even the "best" DDDAC that we had here with us, was only half of the "complete" result without the "right" power supply...

I felt free to copy one of your pictures here on this site

(http://i58.tinypic.com/35aki6o.jpg)

can't wait for you listening report...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on September 03, 2014, 12:29:47 PM
Its a sky scraper, Is it earthquake proof. Amazing.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 05, 2014, 12:47:27 PM
Its a sky scraper, Is it earthquake proof. Amazing.
As current certified Structural Engineer and Owner, I can assure you that this structure is complied to all Specs, including applicable Australian Standards 2013. However, structural integrity is compromise should an event of liquidfaction ever existing. :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Greg Erskine on September 06, 2014, 04:55:59 PM
Hi Chanh,

I wonder what the phase shift in the analogue output between pcb#1 and pcb#11. Has anyone tried just increasing the distance between each pcb rather than just increasing the number?

regards
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on September 06, 2014, 06:41:08 PM
Hi Chanh,

I wonder what the phase shift in the analogue output between pcb#1 and pcb#11. Has anyone tried just increasing the distance between each pcb rather than just increasing the number?

regards

AFAIK all the OP's are joined together, how would there be phase shift?

Z

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Greg Erskine on September 06, 2014, 07:29:48 PM
AFAIK all the OP's are joined together, how would there be phase shift?

Z

hi zenelectro,

PCB designers concern themselves with the length of the input and output traces. When people stack the DAC pcbs they are increasing the lengths of the input and output paths. If you compare the signal paths of pcb#1 and pcb#11 it will be a few 100mm different. Significant? I am just asking. If you were doing one pcb you would never think of having the traces significantly different in length when paralleling devices.

regards
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on September 06, 2014, 08:08:55 PM
hi zenelectro,

PCB designers concern themselves with the length of the input and output traces. When people stack the DAC pcbs they are increasing the lengths of the input and output paths. If you compare the signal paths of pcb#1 and pcb#11 it will be a few 100mm different. Significant? I am just asking. If you were doing one pcb you would never think of having the traces significantly different in length when paralleling devices.

regards

OK I  think I understand, you are referring to RF / digital side of things? I haven't looked at the clock distribution side of things but too busy to check it out.
As far as analog OP is concerned it would be insignificant (I think).

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on September 06, 2014, 10:53:33 PM
Wow, you just have to admire the dedication to wire up all those boards with different caps and regulators; it takes an act of dedication and that in my view shows character.  Should be an interesting listen.  When is it getting booked in Chanh?
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 07, 2014, 09:01:18 AM
Hi Chanh,

I wonder what the phase shift in the analogue output between pcb#1 and pcb#11. Has anyone tried just increasing the distance between each pcb rather than just increasing the number?

regards
I do not think there is a phase shift. All are well regulated on the digital front with delay clocking circuitry on mainboard. On the analog size, surely attract RFI, hence there are filter caps here. I think the formula goes 4.7nf -10nf per deck pending distance/gap between DAC board. In this 11-decks high I will apply 0.068uf as filter to reduce hf down to approx 38khz.

Wow, you just have to admire the dedication to wire up all those boards with different caps and regulators; it takes an act of dedication and that in my view shows character.  Should be an interesting listen.  When is it getting booked in Chanh?
V
many thanks for the encouragement Vita! Surely I will not repeat this exercise at this magnitude ever again. LoL! Many hours and love have been invested, not to mention the funding. An invite will definitely coming once am able to get this up and running. Right now need sourcing some Neotech pure core copper wire to finalise this DAC. Order from Brisbane can take another week or so. Would be great if I could source 1.5m locally today or tomorrow then the gtg can be as close as next weekend with sufficient burn-in period. Any one in Perth has some pls let me know.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 08, 2014, 09:52:20 PM
Got my DAC wired! Hopefully no smoke come out when the power turns on later tonight.
Gota get on with fatherhood duty.... :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on September 08, 2014, 10:54:42 PM
Got my DAC wired! Hopefully no smoke come out when the power turns on later tonight.
Gota get on with fatherhood duty.... :)

Good luck!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 09, 2014, 12:44:13 AM
Quick update - I have now tested my DAC with Doede ps for this configuration, output voltage is spot on 2.74V on left and right for both neg and pos against common. Thank God no smoke come out! :D
Will do a preliminary listening test tomorrow after work, it's 10.40pm now so have to call it the day! LoL!
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/6f1a83f19c4a95bbc6cb8a58bbe0e4fa.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/5b086dab455c13989ef166694242becf.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 09, 2014, 01:30:07 AM
pressing my thumbs for you....
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on September 09, 2014, 07:10:13 AM
On the analog size, surely attract RFI, hence there are filter caps here. I think the formula goes 4.7nf -10nf per deck pending distance/gap between DAC board. In this 11-decks high I will apply 0.068uf as filter to reduce hf down to approx 38khz.
Really enjoying the journey Chanh, thanks for sharing your pics.   Is there any other way the RFI can be avoided,  or is this just a by-product of the multi-board implementation? 

It seems to be a little bit of a shame to have 11 boards loaded with chips capable of serving 96k on the output,  only to drop the HF's at the last moment down to 38k.    Not a biggy in the overall scheme of things,  but was wondering if there is any other way?   (zen?)   
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on September 09, 2014, 08:09:50 AM
Thinking out loud,,,,, the 1794 chips have balanced outputs IIRC.    Is the output stage on these boards balanced (in part)?   Is it relevant?

Appreciate the dac itself has single ended outputs.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 09, 2014, 09:11:18 AM
Hi Ozmillsy,

There are in total 22x 1794 DAC chips in this configuration. Each DAC chip is serving mono hence fully balance capable.

As for hf filter, I can bring it down to 50khz without compromising the SQ, but really can we actually capable hearing beyond 32khz? Perhaps Zen or the designer can provide a more competent inputs? :)

Btw, this DAC can do upto 384khz @24bit. Not limiting to 96khz like you said. Doede?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: zenelectro on September 09, 2014, 11:47:53 AM
Thinking out loud,,,,, the 1794 chips have balanced outputs IIRC.    Is the output stage on these boards balanced (in part)?   Is it relevant?

Appreciate the dac itself has single ended outputs.

Oz,

Just about every modern DAC chip has balanced OP architecture, that's part of how they get big numbers, by cancellation
of even order distortion and whatever other common mode noise etc.

Using a transformer on the OP is a great idea, but optimizing the transformer to suit the particular DAC is the trick.

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on September 09, 2014, 07:38:01 PM
There are in total 22x 1794 DAC chips in this configuration. Each DAC chip is serving mono hence fully balance capable.

Yeah, but that doesnt tell me the output circuit is a balanced circuit.  Not likely.     

Quote
Btw, this DAC can do upto 384khz @24bit. Not limiting to 96khz like you said. Doede?
The chips are 24/192 native digital resolution.   192k digital format allows us to store up to a maximum of 96k analog (following nyquist),  and this is what we hope to get on the analog output for 192k data (96k in/96k out).

What is not clear from the datasheet for the 1794 chip,  is what we can feed it when used in mono mode, and more importantly how it will process the data?   
eg:  you may be able to feed in 384k,  but the chip could be decimating the data stream down to what it can handle (192k?).
So, it's possible to feed in 24/384k, and get lovely sounding music on the output,   but that doesnt mean the chip is actually using all the data.     

The whole 384k thing and what chips actually do with it,  is not easy for consumers like us to understand.  I feel like there is alot of smoke and mirrors going on by chip and dac vendors.

Quote
As for hf filter, I can bring it down to 50khz without compromising the SQ, but really can we actually capable hearing beyond 32khz? Perhaps Zen or the designer can provide a more competent inputs? :)

Well, this is a debate that is had time and again on many audio forums.   As a user of redbook cd format, I can hardly argue with you.  haha  :)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 09, 2014, 08:00:25 PM
I posted more of this on diy, and if you do not mind I share with you here too?
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/5dfb55fa6965262b1f3dd304fc313a38.jpg)

All up..., Worths every minute spent and the associate effort/funding! ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 09, 2014, 09:19:16 PM
Chanh,

congratulations to all your work and especially results from the bottom of my heart...

let me quote you from here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-283.html#post4052378

# 2830

: "...I swear to my Soul this is freaking amazing!!!! All hardworks, friction against the Mrs, criticisms, and time invested, all are worth it!!!

I say no more here, needless to say anyway. It is simply what I am looking for, an analog vinyl alike experience, and here I have it!"...

and

"..Eva Cassidy -SongBird had never sounded so real and alive!"...

well, you are a lucky man now... and the next 200 hours burning in will bring you even more fullfilment... and the reproduction of higher resolutions will additionally round up your fantastic results...

but from my experiences "the aim" is not only to create an "analog vinyl alike experience"... it is much more, that much more that you enter a completely "new" level in reproduction which - to my ears - and I had for some ten years EMI 927 with TSD15 and many others - with vinyl simply is not capable, if... yes, if you are able to bring your new 500 horse powers on to the road...

to understand what I mean you should perhaps try to connect to Tuyen's Goto drivers - at least regarding the bass you will be overwhelmed what a revelation that is....

please, keep us all informed here with all your experiences and pictures...

vey, very, very well done.... my congratulations again...




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on September 09, 2014, 09:31:38 PM
Using a transformer on the OP is a great idea, but optimizing the transformer to suit the particular DAC is the trick.
I'm starting to think I should have pursued the transformer upgrade (you recommended) to my 1794 player,  that must have been what 3 years ago we were talking about it?   Sometimes it takes me awhile to cotton on.   ;D  8)     Bigger fish to fry now.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on September 09, 2014, 10:48:02 PM
I posted more of this on diy, and if you do not mind I share with you here too?
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/5dfb55fa6965262b1f3dd304fc313a38.jpg)

All up..., Worths every minute spent and the associate effort/funding! ;)

Amazing looking DAC! It looks like a twin tower. Thanks for sharing  :)

Edit: What's the transformer next to the DAC under the IC plugs? It looks like a vintage Marconi/Partridge transformer with double C core construction.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 09, 2014, 11:47:26 PM
Yap, it is 15V dual outputs vintage transformer hand made from UK with pure Virgin copper core. I compare this to typical toroidal, this has the fluidity and more naturalness sounding. Pity, I now need 18V.  Hopefully the owner of this tranny has a spare 300-500Va 18V?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on September 10, 2014, 05:55:29 PM
Any of you Gent here could direct me to source a good 500VA single 18V output EI or R-Core for this DAC please?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on September 10, 2014, 06:53:07 PM
If you what a good modern one, Jim makes great sounding transformers and as a bonus his transformers are cheap, he is the man I use. Alkay tranformers, phone 91507489, Sydney
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on September 10, 2014, 08:05:07 PM
If you what a good modern one, Jim makes great sounding transformers and as a bonus his transformers are cheap, he is the man I use. Alkay tranformers, phone 91507489, Sydney

If you can tell us what wire to use and some other tips to build great sounding Alkay transformers like yours that would be great Steve.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on September 10, 2014, 08:06:27 PM
If you can tell us what wire to use and some other tips to build great sounding Alkay transformers like yours that would be great Steve.
Can you make me a couple too.   ;D
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 04, 2014, 10:23:27 PM
well, from what I read this might perhaps be of generel interest, that means might possibly (?) be used in other DACs as well... the newest results from James, whose DDDAC I had the pleasure to listen to already in April this year, but not yet with these ameliorations...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-340.html

No. 3398

"Tonight I finally got my Acko s03 reclocker board working in between the rPi and the DDDAC. Wow.... I thought this sounded good before, but it's just stepped it up another level. This sounds so real and captivating now. I love it!"

(http://i62.tinypic.com/of3pkh.jpg)

and nige2000 added:

"just shows up the imperfections in the Pi i2s..."

as always, devil is in all details...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on November 11, 2014, 02:02:33 AM
well, from what I read this might perhaps be of generel interest, that means might possibly (?) be used in other DACs as well... the newest results from James, whose DDDAC I had the pleasure to listen to already in April this year, but not yet with these ameliorations...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-340.html

No. 3398

"Tonight I finally got my Acko s03 reclocker board working in between the rPi and the DDDAC. Wow.... I thought this sounded good before, but it's just stepped it up another level. This sounds so real and captivating now. I love it!"

(http://i62.tinypic.com/of3pkh.jpg)

and nige2000 added:

"just shows up the imperfections in the Pi i2s..."

as always, devil is in all details...
Hi R,

For your information, Pi is only partly optimal! I have BBB setup with Acko S03 in re locking fully sync mode rather async with the Pi. My setup is dual pc setup where it is derived from JPlay dual PC. Will post the photos if interest but here is what make up the system;
JRemote on iPad navigate JRiver on my optimised Laptop as Server/Controller. Laptop is directly LAN connecting to BBB, BBB is using Meiro Botic driver where it is I2S downstream to Acko isolator, re locking with full Sync to DDDAC I2S via UFL. Now I have all the flexibility/user interface of a pc guy while retained the SQ of embedded player! ;)

I have also done my journey with the Pi and found BBB is a level above all together.

Chanh
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on November 11, 2014, 02:36:17 AM
Chanh,

thank you very much for your informations... they are always very much appreciated...

and yes, please, post all the pixes that you have with precise (for non-DIYers like me) explanations...

I think time has come and need grown for a real scientific and of course listening test of all those different approaches side by side...




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on November 11, 2014, 03:46:23 PM
Hi R,

I post this on diy, but seems the quality of the video is overly compressed. I will try again later today via YouTube channel. ;)
https://vimeo.com/111493055

Chanh
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 12, 2014, 12:16:07 AM
...well, in my HiFi-life I always read and have read about tweakings and ameliorations - and it always appeared to me like a never ever ending story - so I hardly read something like this...

"... I very am over joyed with my current setup..."[...] "Currently, I have no desire for further tweaking because the current SQ is simply too engaging, loving it!!!"

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-360.html

no 3595

and:

"This works perfect for me..." and "...I think that my music source is than kind of finished.."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-361.html

no 3601

for those who might be interested let me propose you reading especially about the results from those two guys, Chanh and Supersurfer (the latter's DDDAC I had the great pleasure to listen to in April this year in comparison to dwjames's and all our stuff here - all side by side) - and whose details might as well be of interest within other DAC-combinations and -constellations...

I was convinced about (both) DDDACs deep down to the bottom of my heart and soul from the very first day and still am, and I am very glad that others find their way too and meanwhile qualitywise are far ahead of me...

my congratulations...


here are two pixes from the actual dwjames DDDAC1794:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1ififk.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2ir4r3a.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 14, 2014, 01:04:44 AM
...it appears to me that the true criterions of achievement regarding the DDDAC1794 are now spreading more around within DIY-circles...

let me quote some guys from Austria:

"The sound really is unbelievable most of the times, of course depending on the input-file, you can't enhance a bad sound-production/mastering.
But when the input is good the output is awesome, mostly equal or beating the vinyl (of course there also remains the question of origin/production), but this leads to constant discussions between us, one favoring vinyl, the other digital. Let's take the best of both worlds..."...

..."DDDAC vs. Vinyl: this was the most interesting challenge for sure with the additional difficulty in finding similar or identical productions (on the issue: http://dr.loudness-war.info/ ).

So here are some examples we compared, ranging from 16bit/44,1kHz to 24bit/192kHz.

1) Fleetwood Mac – Rumours vs 24bit/88,2kHz: digital is ahead, much clearer, more dynamic, vinyl sounds dull in comparison. (I must say the vinyl seems to be worn out and played too often, I got it from a friend).

2) Michael Jackson – Thriller: we had different CDs (16bit/44,1kHz) ripped and played with DDDAC, at first vinyl was ahead, then we found a mastering which beat the vinyl clearly in every department.

3) The Police – Every Breath You Take (Best-of-Compilation): this was rather astonishing....after fixing a problem with the rotation speed of the Dual 704 we listened to the record to see if it's alright. Then we were blown away by the unbelievable sound of this record, very good production obviously (I heard the vinyl for the first time this day).
Later we compared it to 24bit/88,2kHz – vinyl won. About a week later I put it on again and compared it to a different 16bit/44,1kHz mastering....and the DDDAC was ahead, I couldn't believe it, but there it was.

4) DiMeola/McLaughlin/DeLucia-Friday Night in San Francisco, live: we compared it to 176kHz, 88,2kHz, 44,1kHz....vinyl won every time. It feels more alive and vibrant, the digital is sounding a bit dry in comparison, but nevertheless perfect. Hard to explain with words.

5) Boston – Third Stage: This was close....both sounding very good. The DDDAC though has more power, more bass (as always). But also the highs are very clear and sounding similar to vinyl. But interestingly the digital sounds more open and spatial overall.

6) Chris Isaak – Wicked Game (Best-of-Compilation): for a long time this was my favorite record to impress people with, show them the quality of vinyl and Dual 704, I never thought digital could come close. But it does, 16bit/44,1kHz and it sounds better overall, more dynamic, more open, the highs are pretty much identical. Still the record sounds very very good of course.

7) ZZ Top-Eliminator: we compared it to 192kHz....vinyl record also sounding very good, DDDAC sounds better in every department, more powerful, more dynamic, better sound stage.

–-

So in the end the DDDAC beats them all (with one exception- the vinyl-live-concert)..."

contrarily to those who still passionately object digital stream they have reached another level in development and reproduction: "...mostly equal or beating the vinyl..." and "...one favoring vinyl, the other digital..."...this is presumably that what most are looking for, isn't it?

if you want to read more, go here:

http://www.runeaudio.com/forum/runeaudio-with-raspberrypi-and-dddac1794-nos-t484.html
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 20, 2014, 04:50:53 AM
...there have been some very justified and useful hints here in the past regarding the “combination” of the output of not only the DDDAC1794 but of course other DACs as well having significant influence on the final sound quality…

well, I indicated already some time ago that Triode Dick last year came already around with some different outputs which we all tried out side by side, and within these were as well the Cinemags…

...regarding these Cinemags in particular smooth dancer from Norway over at the DIY-site just has made severe progresses within the installment of his DDDAC1794 within his system which I find that nice that I do not want to withhold it here… and from what I see his whole system is presumably not only a pleasure for the eyes…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/jg5ahf.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2memma.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/xc1umx.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/vpzsk1.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/i3xoq9.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2dlsrq1.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/iqhnd5.jpg)

.. it is fun to see all these things, and those regarding DIY look very cleanly executed and appear very esthetically to me, but the most significant exploration of which everybody may take advantage of within his own DIY-constellations are the testing results of smooth dancer with his cinemags:

“dddac realy rock on this speakers. Even more after disconnecting the cinemags.
Sound seems clearer and bass is more defined...“

… isn’t it this what we are all looking for?

But smooth dancer hasn’t finished yet…

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on December 30, 2014, 05:57:59 AM
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2urry3k.jpg)

...you might want to read the ongoing story regarding smoothdancer's DDDAC1794 for yourself.. I like to quote. or better go here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-368.html

#3678


"It's been 3 weeks since my DDDAC was build and I have been playing a lot theese last days. I have to say that this dac is very good. As someone maybe remember I promised a shootout against my tweaked Buffalo IIIse dual mono.

1. "Digitalis" : dddac is more analog sounding, Buffalo have a small "edge" in direct comparason. This is very important for me as I play music for several ours daily.
The dddac is fantastic here. The music flow with ease and naturalnes in a way I never heard
before from a digital product, bravo.

2. Voices: Dddac is so natural, and again, no digital edge here. Buffalo have a very clear midrange, but the sound from dddac feels more realistic. Easier to believe what you hear.

3. Bass: After replacing the stock trannies with 250va on 12v, and 200va on 5v, ddac have the same authoroty at the lower end. Definition is very close race here.

4. Resolution: dddac seems to dig even deeper into the recording than Buffalo.

5. Musicality: dddac grab my attention from the first tone and don't let go. Buffalo does the same, BUT after a while my thoughts starts to think about other things than music.

Konklusion: well, no conclusion for now, and I will explain why.

Exa u2i vs, WaveIo : Buffalo use Exa, and as you know, dddac use WaveIo.

I had very hard to believe that dddac should be so much better than Buffalo. So i installed Exa in dddac and did an direct comparason against WaveIo.

Wow, I must say I am very surprised,,, whit Exa in use, dddac sounds almost as Buffalo. The digital edge and several things that was related to Buffalo's sound came back in dddac.

Switcing over to WaveIo, and everything was good again.

WaveIo is superb sounding compared to Exa. ( in my setup ) but I have seen other also have the same experience..."


well, when I read this I am very happy with the progressive results that smoothdancer has reached - and I have to admit that he now belongs to those who are - regarding the DDDAC - ahead of me (at the moment I do have no tweaks at all, just the standard)...

...and if you read him carefully you might see confirmed all the things that I told you already months and even years now ago with already "lesser" input...

and it all really shines especially with his new power supplies...

my congratulations...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on December 31, 2014, 12:05:10 PM
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2urry3k.jpg)

...you might want to read the ongoing story regarding smoothdancer's DDDAC1794 for yourself.. I like to quote. or better go here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-368.html

#3678


"It's been 3 weeks since my DDDAC was build and I have been playing a lot theese last days. I have to say that this dac is very good. As someone maybe remember I promised a shootout against my tweaked Buffalo IIIse dual mono.

1. "Digitalis" : dddac is more analog sounding, Buffalo have a small "edge" in direct comparason. This is very important for me as I play music for several ours daily.
The dddac is fantastic here. The music flow with ease and naturalnes in a way I never heard
before from a digital product, bravo.

2. Voices: Dddac is so natural, and again, no digital edge here. Buffalo have a very clear midrange, but the sound from dddac feels more realistic. Easier to believe what you hear.

3. Bass: After replacing the stock trannies with 250va on 12v, and 200va on 5v, ddac have the same authoroty at the lower end. Definition is very close race here.

4. Resolution: dddac seems to dig even deeper into the recording than Buffalo.

5. Musicality: dddac grab my attention from the first tone and don't let go. Buffalo does the same, BUT after a while my thoughts starts to think about other things than music.

Konklusion: well, no conclusion for now, and I will explain why.

Exa u2i vs, WaveIo : Buffalo use Exa, and as you know, dddac use WaveIo.

I had very hard to believe that dddac should be so much better than Buffalo. So i installed Exa in dddac and did an direct comparason against WaveIo.

Wow, I must say I am very surprised,,, whit Exa in use, dddac sounds almost as Buffalo. The digital edge and several things that was related to Buffalo's sound came back in dddac.

Switcing over to WaveIo, and everything was good again.

WaveIo is superb sounding compared to Exa. ( in my setup ) but I have seen other also have the same experience..."


well, when I read this I am very happy with the progressive results that smoothdancer has reached - and I have to admit that he now belongs to those who are - regarding the DDDAC - ahead of me (at the moment I do have no tweaks at all, just the standard)...

...and if you read him carefully you might see confirmed all the things that I told you already months and even years now ago with already "lesser" input...

and it all really shines especially with his new power supplies...

my congratulations...
You need to share more secrets with chan regarding his ddac is lacking what others are hearing something is very wrong here chans dac is very good but hey not natural
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on January 02, 2015, 04:27:09 PM
Hey Kajak12,

My DAC might not be world best, however, one thing for certain it isn't as rolled top/bottom and only midrange emphases like your preference DAC taste!

I personally have many get togethers, as it seems only you were critically provided a negative feedback w.r.t "Narturalness"! Have you wonder why All were able to hear the improvement but not YOU?!?
If naturalness defines as rolled dynamic like a normal distribution curve, am quiet happy without it! ;)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on January 02, 2015, 04:33:58 PM
What sounds natural is a subjective assessment.

Its only hifi,  what matters is what you like to listen to, nothing else. 
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on January 02, 2015, 09:30:29 PM
Hey Kajak12,

My DAC might not be world best, however, one thing for certain it isn't as rolled top/bottom and only midrange emphases like your preference DAC taste!

Is his DAC preference still the KillerDAC? If it is, then you might want to read this: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/63511-computer-audio-and-tweaks/page-8#entry1116812

Have fun reading and happy listening  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on January 02, 2015, 11:59:28 PM
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;D
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!

Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on January 03, 2015, 12:13:42 AM
Yes, absolutely it is all subjective.   

Chanh, you have to admire someone who gives you their genuine opinion.   Mario is a rare breed in our audiophile demographic, he'll tell you how he really hears it.   I wish there were more like him.

But still, it is only his subjective opinion based on what *he* likes.   It is no more correct than your own preferences, there is nothing wrong with having different tastes.

The engagement you speak of, its not simply midrange push, it runs deeper than that.   His system wasnt just the dac,  it was the whole package dialled in just the way he likes it.

You can get more details, cleaner sound and more extension in the Kdac,  by tuning it to your tastes. I've listed a whole bunch of changes to take the Kdac in that direction (in my kdac thread). 1 size certainly doesnt fit all.   But as i said, its not just about the dac.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 03, 2015, 01:25:58 AM
I have listened to the KillerDAC many, many times and I must say that it is a very nice and even exceptional DAC, and most importantly sounds (very) musical. 

To my ears, I am not sure why people would think that it is not musical, and sadly people can get lost in measurements which as we all know does not usually describe the musicality of a component  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 03, 2015, 01:43:54 AM
Yes agreed, unfortunately there are those who are seduced by false in your face detail and zingy treble so go for different technologies which for me personally results in boredom setting in after 10 minutes.  Anyone who thinks it unmusical is seriously remiss and inexperienced wrt reproduction in the home IMV.

There are so many new technologies all competing for a slice of the action that the kings new clothes will continue forever.  Whilst I am on a semi rant, all those shirt salesman pimping up 16 bit digital by upsampling them to a larger bit bucket deserve stringing up.  Pono music comes to mind along with many others trying to trick the unweary  :-[
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on January 03, 2015, 02:00:48 AM
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;D
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!

Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
Yeah, his system was crap so he sold it, I wonder how long it would take for him to get rid of it...  ::)
As ozmillsy said, you can tune the KillerDAC to your liking. How? Ask the Buddah, Rawl99, zenelectro, Lansche Plasma Guy, or any other masters who could help you on this forum. I am sure they're more than happy to help  :)

I have listened to the KillerDAC many, many times and I must say that it is a very nice and even exceptional DAC, and most importantly sounds (very) musical. 

To my ears, I am not sure why people would think that it is not musical, and sadly people can get lost in measurements which as we all know does not usually describe the musicality of a component  :)
I never care about the measurement, I did not even ask for it ever since I bought the KillerDAC in 2009 from Steve. It just happened that since many people subjectively say that the KillerDAC is rolled off, Rawl99 disproves it by presenting the actual measurements of the KillerDAC. I wish this would stop the rolled-off comment but as vitavoxdude pointed out, many are seduced by false in your face detail and zingy treble which people subjectively assume to be more extended. So, yeah choose our own poison  ;)

And no, I am not lost in the measurements because regardless of what the measurements say, the KillerDAC still gives me the most enjoyable musical experience for digital. Tape is better but not much music I usually listen to is available.

Now kids, let's get back on topic about the DDDAC, shall we?  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on January 03, 2015, 02:03:50 AM
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;D
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!

Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
The most important starting point with any quality system is the front end, and that front end must have one attribute above all..... glorious midrange splendour....It's 70 Precent of the music and ultimately what matters. That is what the killerdac has in spades, but like all NOS dacs they suffer in the frequency extremes, it's the nature of the beast. So I say start with what matters most, and use some real skill to nullify these problems, for example with my DAC I use a superb TDA1541A S2 this particular chip has excellent extension. With my speakers I purposely allowed extra energy in the high frequency's to atone for the extension roll off. Tune the whole system accordingly because without that brilliant midrange you will not have musical satisfaction. Marios DAC is a high bred of old parts, mostly not used anymore, the newer DACs have good extension, Ultimately i have no doubt there are many dacs with better extension, but the date no digital device I have heard other than a killerdac really makes music.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 03, 2015, 02:45:20 AM
... So I say start with what matters most, and use some real skill to nullify these problems, for example with my DAC I use a superb TDA1541A S2 this particular chip has excellent extension. With my speakers I purposely allowed extra energy in the high frequency's to atone for the extension roll off. Tune the whole system accordingly because without that brilliant midrange you will not have musical satisfaction. Marios DAC is a high bred of old parts, mostly not used anymore, the newer DACs have good extension, Ultimately i have no doubt there are many dacs with better extension, but to date no digital device I have heard other than a killerdac really makes music.
@stevenvalve, so your audio system has been tuned with extra high frequency energy and is very fast... that is interesting!

Yes, the midrange is important although for some it can be a midrange preference, for others it can be a midrange & bass preference, and for others it can be midrange & treble preference... it is nice to have it all, though, while maintaining musicality :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on January 03, 2015, 02:48:28 AM
What is mean by really makes music, when you sit in front someone's system for the first time, in your mind like a typical audiophile you are ready to critically analyse, the music starts and you think, Wow this is different, it throws you at first, because its like nothing you have heard before, so gentle, warm, natural, flowing, organic, colourful, even beautiful, Nothing is in your face, no raging treble, no attacking detail, Soon you start to think, why doesn't this sound like all the other audio systems i have heard, then the truth suddenly dawns on you, You give yourself an uppercut, you stop analysing lay back in the chair and get lost in the splendour.     
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on January 03, 2015, 02:54:37 AM
@stevenvalve, so your audio system has been tuned with extra high frequency energy and is very fast... that is interesting!

Yes, the midrange is important although for some it can be a midrange preference, for others it can be a midrange & bass preference, and for others it can be midrange & treble preference... it is nice to have it all, though, while maintaining musicality :)
Ping, go and listen to a unamplified small ensemble playing classical music..... its mainly all midrange. Frequency extension is an artificial audiophiles dream
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 03, 2015, 02:58:24 AM
stevenvalve, what do you believe that the tuning of the extra high frequency energy provided to the listening experience...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 03, 2015, 03:03:29 AM
The way that music decays from bass to midrange to treble is all about harmonic texture/timbre, isn't it  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 03, 2015, 10:53:24 AM
... so gentle, warm, natural, flowing, organic, colourful, even beautiful, Nothing is in your face, no raging treble, no attacking detail ... you stop analysing, lay back in the chair, and get lost in the splendour.     
stevenvalve, these characteristics need to be part of the musical payback experience, don't they... all good  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on January 03, 2015, 04:56:56 PM
Ping, the first thing I say when someone asks me to help with there system is take all your HiFi books like Stereophile, absolute sound, whatever, go to the rubbish bin and throw them where they belong, start afresh, relive your brain of all the propaganda they and other magazine toting audiophiles have instilled in the head, There is so much payola going on in that industry, these magazines live and die from selling advertising and they know manufactures need to sell product to pay for these adds, you can see the conflict of interest. In the last 40 years, Music reproduction has not improved, it's just changed, just different, In the last 5 years with computer audio, its reached an all time low. Audio Manufactures need change to sell you and me there latest and greatest, they claim low distortion, super high and low extension, incredible hyper resolution and detail firing at your brain, low bass rattling your windows. Its a shame for them that these attributes don't exist in the form they are offering. But if your a head bagger it does not really matter. 
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 03, 2015, 05:21:48 PM
Quote
But if your a head bagger it does not really matter.

And there lies the answer  ;D, natural music without amplification should be the arbiter but alas, a lot of folk have never heard it and associate good reproduction with modern MP3 as a source and think it great.

The yardstick I apply is if it sounds fantastic with strong bass and treble can I listen to it all day or do I want to turn it down after 10 minutes as it has become annoying and leads to fatigue. 

There are very few systems I can have on all day and they usually employ valves and electrostatics, why?  Well because they do not unduly emphasise any frequency band and do not store energy in the mass of their transducers.

IMV PC audio or digital streamers are OK for background casual listening but this will inevitably change once the technology settles into something worthwhile and bearing in mind it took a quarter of a century for CD to blossom, it may be a while yet.

I do own a digital streamer and its replay of SSD encoded files is reasonable but not great
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 03, 2015, 05:22:18 PM
... so gentle, warm, natural, flowing, organic, colourful, even beautiful, Nothing is in your face, no raging treble, no attacking detail ... you stop analysing, lay back in the chair, and get lost in the splendour.

... Audio Manufactures need change to sell you and me there latest and greatest, they claim low distortion, super high and low extension, incredible hyper resolution and detail firing at your brain, low bass rattling your windows. Its a shame for them that these attributes don't exist in the form they are offering. But if your a head banger it does not really matter.
stevenvalve, it is a shame, isn't it :)  The KillerDAC is a very nice and musical DAC, to my ears  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on January 03, 2015, 09:48:59 PM
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;D
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!

Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD MY SETUP WITH MY POWER AMP!!!! ONLY WITH YOUR AMP AND PRE AND VITAVOX AMP AND FRANKS PRE..........

NOTHING LIKE I WAS RUNNING NO PRE AMP
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on January 03, 2015, 10:31:32 PM
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;D
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!

Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
MORE EXTENDED DYNAMIC SOURCE MATERIAL WHEN IT COMES TO TIN PAN ALLEY YOU ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO MY SYSTEM QUESTION I ASK IS HOW CAN ONE MAKE A FORMED OPINION WITHOUT HAVING THE GOODS????????????????
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on January 03, 2015, 10:33:42 PM
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;D
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!

Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
i SOLD MY DAC AND MY (((SYSTEM))) TO GET OUT OF AUDIO WHEN I RETURN I HOPE DDDAC LIKE YOU HAVE MATCHES IT JUST TO START FAR FROM IT
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on January 03, 2015, 11:37:41 PM
Haha...!
There is no need for fouls language and the shouting Mario. Cool down! I thought You would be pleased that I just happened to be influenced by you from telling the truth. Why it is the norm for you to honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? What have I said were wrong or untruthful?

Yes, you kept saying your setup is SOTA and it's unfortunately I could never able to hear it simply because your SOTA Amps was kept getting faulty! I am sure when it was working, your setup was a SOTA. However, I can't just falsely deviate my realistic experience. Sorry!

Lastly, I never doubt your experience in audio! If any, I was advocate your ears set. Note, your perception/acceptance in audio is as good as anyone of us. Afterall, just like Ozmillsy said, this is all very subjective!

My appologies for this sidetrack. I think I better shut up from here!


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on January 03, 2015, 11:44:16 PM
Haha...!
There is no need for fouls language and the shouting Mario. Cool down! I thought You would be pleased that I just happened to be influenced by you from telling the truth. Why it is a norm for you to honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? What have I said were wrong or untruthful?

Yes, you kept saying your setup is SOTA and it's unfortunately I could never able to hear it simply because your SOTA Amps was kept getting faulty! I am sure when it was working, your setup was a SOTA. However, I can't just falsely deviate my realistic experience. Sorry!

My Sincere appologies for this sidetrack. I think I better shut up from here!
i was being polite as for sota amp being faulty more to do with faulty el34 and me using 5 watt bias resistors didn't help (on the beach owns it now) he has no problems but he does own 30k plus of audio research which he needs to sell.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on January 03, 2015, 11:46:54 PM
Haha...!
There is no need for fouls language and the shouting Mario. Cool down! I thought You would be pleased that I just happened to be influenced by you from telling the truth. Why it is a norm for you to honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? What have I said were wrong or untruthful?

Yes, you kept saying your setup is SOTA and it's unfortunately I could never able to hear it simply because your SOTA Amps was kept getting faulty! I am sure when it was working, your setup was a SOTA. However, I can't just falsely deviate my realistic experience. Sorry!

My Sincere appologies for this sidetrack. I think I better shut up from here!
honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours?   ask them what they think chan when they heard it??????????
if you get anywhere near me you will be lucky with a dddac   BRING IT ON CHAN
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on January 04, 2015, 12:01:15 AM
Haha...!
There is no need for fouls language and the shouting Mario. Cool down! I thought You would be pleased that I just happened to be influenced by you from telling the truth. Why it is a norm for you to honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? What have I said were wrong or untruthful?

Yes, you kept saying your setup is SOTA and it's unfortunately I could never able to hear it simply because your SOTA Amps was kept getting faulty! I am sure when it was working, your setup was a SOTA. However, I can't just falsely deviate my realistic experience. Sorry!

My Sincere appologies for this sidetrack. I think I better shut up from here!
NEVER SHUT UP BRING IT ON I SAY
I had a kajak12 system on sna but it was deleted why? who knows maybe one day chan system (24 bit flac) will make the same grade (not on flac if you cant hear it you never will)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 04, 2015, 01:24:16 AM
Saturday evening and probably several beers and wines later and emotions can run high............................................sounds like some head banging going on here with inevitable outcomes.

Many things are said in the heat of the moment only to be regretted later.

I for one applaud and encourage Chanh for his determination efforts and exploits on his journey to where he feels is good for him, others may remark negatively all they like, its down to personal preferences and its not a pissing competition where coming second is an issue. 

Why do folk feel the need to offload on others, maybe a reflection of their own circumstances, who knows.

I feel uneasy when folk appear to have a crack at one another over Audio repro as it fails to serve any real purpose here on the KD forum and may put off others from contributing for fear of ridicule.

Let's try and keep any future outbursts to private emails so we don't all feel dragged down to watching a pointless slagging match from the sidelines.  Pretty please. Does this sound reasonable chaps?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 04, 2015, 02:05:12 AM
There is so much discussion about “subjective” and tailoring to “taste”…. And with what result?  I have to admit I have my problems to follow…

…when I listen to a thunder in nature, then I “hear” it, and to my ears there is much much more than "only" "glorious mid range splendour" in a system… that much more that I would like to say that it is the bass which defines basically the reproduced sound (not that boom-boom, you get me right…)… and everybody else “hears” the thunder as well, but everybody hears it his onw way…

…the other day I watched a brand new and very interesting scientific report in brain research on tele regarding the individual human detection of colours… that everybody “sees” the colors red and green and blue and so on in his own way, and that the different “detections” simply are “not congruent” with the impressions that others have with them… that everybody has his own "impression" of what a certain color is, and that there is only a "common agreement" of that what all these "different" "blue", "red" and "green" are... and well, my feelings grow that the same might be valid for the perceptions in HiFi…

…a thunder in nature is a thunder in nature, no matter “how” a single person perceives it… everybody has his personal detection… and I do not hear anyone saying that the perception of a thunder in nature is “subjective” although the thunder is perceived highestly “subjectively”, and I never ever have read (so far) of any wish to tweak and/or taylor to taste a natural thunder…

so everybody “should” be able to “compare” his own detection of a natural thunder with that one of the reproduction within his own system and the ones within other systems, and so everybody “should” be able to detect how far he is “away” (or close to) from his subjective detection in comparison to the natural one – in case that this is the “aim” one follows in HiFi… (there are many others of course…)

at least for me there is “no taste” and “no subjectivity” in natural sound - it is as is, but very much in reproduced sound… if I like it or not…

may it be that people are not that “used” to natural sound to come to “objective” results for their own reproductions?

… to get back to the theme of this thread I find it best when ambitious DIYers present the results that they found out best for themselves and present them so that everybody may take advantage for himself or not…

..so for example supersurfer lately came out with this:

#3691

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-370.html

“…For me it is more interesting to discover the beste price/improvement ratio for all these modifications.

[…]

In order of sound improvement and costs I would choose:
-direct balanced out (without capacitor)
- tantalum IV resistors
- silmic and oscon capacitors on the dac boards
-shunt regulators on the dac boards analog side
- unregulated choke power supply with a large transformer
-I2S connected raspberry pi or bbb
-acko S03 reclocker board ( or to be released botic cape from TP)
- shunt regulators on digital supplies

Pin 20 modification to be put in the above order somewhere, but I have not made this so can't judge the effect…”

I was very impressed with supersurfer's results so far last april here with us, and they are definitely well worth following and being checked out by others who are interested in…

...as I am not a technician I can only hope that these results may encourage you to push your own ambitions - with whatever DAC - further to come closer to the “natural” thunder within your system…


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on January 04, 2015, 09:19:57 AM
Hi Reinhard,

Happy New Year to you !

I'm not sure the thunder analogy is the best one, because in nature there are many different types of thunder sounds.

If reproducing thunder, how do you really know which type you are trying to reproduce?

Having meaningful references you consistently refer back to, are an important baseline when assessing changes to reproduction systems, IMHO. 

I do agree that good sounding bass is an important foundation.  I am yet to hit true bass nirvana on any system i have had. For me its not just about extension.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 04, 2015, 09:57:56 AM
i was being polite as for sota amp being faulty more to do with faulty el34 and me using 5 watt bias resistors didn't help (on the beach owns it now) he has no problems but he does own 30k plus of audio research which he needs to sell.
Well the KillerDAC is a very nice and musical DAC, to my ears, and would appear to be very well priced, considering the price of the audio research :)
Why did you sell it and why did you want to get out of audio?

Hopefully the DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192 will eventually sound good, also :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on January 04, 2015, 12:31:29 PM
Well the KillerDAC is a very nice and musical DAC, to my ears, and would appear to be very well priced, considering the price of the audio research :)
Why did you sell it and why did you want to get out of audio?

Hopefully the DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192 will eventually sound good, also :)
I would listen less then 2 hrs a week due to entertaining a 4 year old,some weeks never really turned it on,so i decided to sell it and build another system down the track that uses set amp and he speakers.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 05, 2015, 03:24:42 AM
Hi Reinhard,

Happy New Year to you !

I'm not sure the thunder analogy is the best one, because in nature there are many different types of thunder sounds.

If reproducing thunder, how do you really know which type you are trying to reproduce?

Having meaningful references you consistently refer back to, are an important baseline when assessing changes to reproduction systems, IMHO. 

I do agree that good sounding bass is an important foundation.  I am yet to hit true bass nirvana on any system i have had. For me its not just about extension.


yep, thank you...

we could discuss - and listen to of course - to "different" types of thunder sounds in nature and reproduction when the general platform is given to be able to reproduce such a thunder in general at all... right...

not to produce redundant infos you might want to read the following over at Stefano's where I have written exactly about that phenomenon some years ago - and which was/is the result of thirty years research in our bass horn development:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html

from my experiences there are only two, three drivers (no paper cones) out there which are able at all to generate the illusion of listening to a real thunder regarding precision, naturality, velocity and sound pressure (very much depending on the calculation of the horn length and size - really not that easy... )

...and I do not mean a "normal" thunder in the far distance but a very close one, "dangerous" and "frightening", one of which you instinctively take cover... SG146LD, SG146LD4, and perhaps the ultra ALE bass drivers, if adjusted right are capable (although I have not yet heard this personally from ALE... but I know of people who claim that they are able to do so... perhaps Jean will help me out to fill my gaps to get to listen to some highest end ALE-systems in Japan in the (near) future...

so you might perhaps imagine what you might be missing when comparing such a "natural" thunder with the ones reproduced in your system...

there is still a lot to do for ambitious DIYers, and the "right" source is to start with (what you do not put in, you cannot get out), so get on...





Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on January 05, 2015, 07:33:31 AM
we could discuss - and listen to of course - to "different" types of thunder sounds in nature and reproduction when the general platform is given to be able to reproduce such a thunder in general at all... right...
if you mean; you recorded a thunderstorm, you heard for yourself the live thunder at the time it was recorded, you have a vivid memory of it, and then you used this recording to playback and baseline your reproduction system against your own memory of the actual event - if that is what you meant, then perhaps yes, this could be done.

Close up thunder, where the lightning flash and the snap/bang of the thunder happens simultaneous, is pretty loud,   i imagine it would be very easy for the recording to clip.

Lets say you achieved your goal and put together a system that can deliver a real thunder strike experience.   Does this automatically translate into musical bass?   To achieve exceĺlence for a certain type of sound (or style of music), often means compromises for other types of sounds. I am not saying this is the case here, i am just wondering how the thunderstrike baseline correlates to actual music?

What i seek in bass, is real timbre, texture and vibrancy (i dont yearn for window rattling slam).  Alot of modern woofers/subs dont deliver the type of bass i seek.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 05, 2015, 10:25:50 AM
... we could discuss - and listen to of course - to "different" types of thunder sounds in nature and reproduction when the general platform is given to be able to reproduce such a thunder in general at all... right...

not to produce redundant infos you might want to read the following over at Stefano's where I have written exactly about that phenomenon some years ago - and which was/is the result of thirty years research in our bass horn development: http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html (http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html)

Reinhard, very, very impressive looking horns, wow  :)

Reinhard, is Stefano in Japan.   I thought that he was in Italy!, although your blog indicates Germany  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 05, 2015, 10:34:06 AM
Mmmhhh, for us it’s about reproduction of physical frequencies in general, not only “music”… music is only a certain part of the frequency range, isn’t it…

When we started with our bass horns more than 30 years ago we came across a picture from the second world war, from Japan, showing the emperor Hirohito with his marshall-rod, inspecting his “Matsush!ta injection speakers”, which were signed “not for indoor use”, with his highest general…

…imagine a picture of infinite war “material” in the back ground, weapons as far as the eye can see, and in front “killing speakers”, those Matsush!tas…. they were constructed mobile, on 2 m high wheels, and some 8 – 10 meters high overall, the mouth of the horns in the direction like Jimi Hendrix when kissing the sky at 11:30 hours…. They were constructed to “reproduce” precisely 7 cycles, the human body’s own frequency, which, when running, destroyed the enemies bodies in some distance like a glass that splits… (I have that picture somewhere but cannot find it at the moment...)

or take a military battalion that marches in step over a bridge with one till two cyles, matching the bridge’s own frequency and bringing it to a breakdown… music? Presumably not, but frequencies…

…not that we today are into the development of such weapons, but in reproduction of frequencies, and of course we make use of a sine generator if need be (to be able to “rely” on a neutral signal)… and right from the beginning we tested our developments not only by listening (we always do that) but as well with measurements…

… and this in the long run led to an achievement, to a solution where it does no longer matter what type of sound and/or style of music at what (realistic) loudness is being played… there is no need for making compromises… with no frequency (focused mostly of course on the directly audible ones…)

…and we know of quite a lot of people who claim to be in need for several different systems, one for jazz, another for classical, and another for pop, and so on… for me it is the same with pick-ups, as good as single ones may be, those who are into vinyl hardly ever are content with only one pickup…

Two years ago we had Prof. Suzuki from Japan here with us. He is chief medicine of a hospital in Tokyo with 500 beds and six floors… and the sixths floor is his HiFi- paradise, with some ten different room with some 60 square meters each, and systems with really all that money can buy… after 2 million Euros counting I gave up calculating… Klangfilm, Western Electric, Goto, Ale…. all what one can imagine…. well after some 6 or 7 hours in the sweet spot of Klaus’s system he said, I told already elsewhere: “We are not able to build this in Japan!”

So, to come back down to earth and to your search for a bass that suits you, you might want to have a listen to Tuyen’s horns with Goto SG38WN…. Yes, these are paper cones, but from my point of view you presumably come closest to what you are looking for (and still rather affordable)….

I remember my own situation, the bass was that part in reproduction that nerved me the most nearly my whole HiFi-life… but this is, at least for me, history for some ten years…

go, have a listen, and then tell me that you don't need them...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on January 05, 2015, 10:43:56 AM

I for one applaud and encourage Chanh for his determination efforts and exploits on his journey to where he feels is good for him, others may remark negatively all they like, its down to personal preferences and its not a pissing competition where coming second is an issue. 
Hi Steve,

Many thanks for the encouragement, both your and Mario's feedbacks post every catchup at my Shed were nothing but constructive and valued.  ;) Though Mario's wording were quiet often too blank and without any principle justifications made it harder to digest sometimes. Aside that, Mario is a very helpful and kind hearted individual that urgently need assistance in written communication.   ::)

I for one, never set out to compete this nonsense, rather simply enjoying audio as a form of therapy. I enyoy pushing the design to its limits and the stimulation it's providing to my brain cells when things turn lemon or not working as anticipated. :D

DDDAC is still a working progress, and you are always welcome back whenever you can find time!

Chanh
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 05, 2015, 10:44:29 AM
Reinhard, very, very impressive looking horns, wow  :)

Reinhard, is Stefano in Japan.   I thought that he was in Italy!, although your blog indicates Germany  :)

you are right, Stefano is in Italy, not in Japan, although he has already visited the most famous producers over there, like ALE and Goto and so on.... he is regularly participent of our listening tests here in Germany close to Cologne... and having a Goto-system on his own... you might want to read him... search for "Goto" on his site...

 
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 05, 2015, 11:02:38 AM
Reinhard, what are your thoughts of Chanh's DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192  :)

Chanh, you can't stop now, so you need to keep going, and IMV/IME/IMO you can use the KDAC as a reference  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 05, 2015, 11:39:08 AM
HI Chanh ;)

Yes don't stop in your development, the DAC has promise, it just needs tinkering, patience and time/money to get it to where it will match the Conrad Johnson and Carver as well as the speakers , getting therm all in harmony is quite a big task.  Tuyen has been through a myriad of parts and equipment to try and find his joy and is still going.  We are not so lucky as others in assembling a system and then just accepting it as being good enough, the fun is in the planning and experimenting but so is the frustration.  Mario does have his heart in the right place as we know but shows very little tolerance of anything that is not exceptional in his view which we can either accept and use to spur us on to bigger and better things or negatively as a smite, the choice is ours and ours alone.

One of the things I have learnt is you can spend 5K on decent parts but if you start with a basic machine or design, it never ends up looking like a finished product worth 5K, better to start with a 5K product in the first place and work on that.  I would love to end up with a great looking as well as great sounding spread, but alas my pockets are not deep enough currently and the bling of a gyro deck has long faded into then annuals of history.

DIY can look pretty if you have the woodworking skills of Erik or Flemo but alas most of us do not.  Just as well the majority of my stuff is outside out of eyesight from the Missus in the man shed! :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on January 05, 2015, 12:46:24 PM
... Yes don't stop in your development, the DAC has promise, it just needs tinkering, patience and time/money to get it to where it will match the Conrad Johnson and Carver... /font]
vitavoxdude, what do you find beneficial with the Conrad Johnson and Carver over the KDAC  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on January 05, 2015, 12:49:17 PM
@Steve,
Last I checked, Pete (flemo) is very willing with his assistance. I have deferred the offer still this DDDAC deems satisfactory to my ears. Still working on that Natureness to my taste.  8)

@Ping, cheers for the input! Actually, I have had the less optimal than Mario's KDAC here over the extended period during my DAC searching.  ;)





Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 05, 2015, 04:20:27 PM
Chanh

Quote
vitavoxdude, what do you find beneficial with the Conrad Johnson and Carver over the KDAC 

Errr that was missing the point, what I was suggesting is the synergy between the whole system is the important thing not how one single component performs.  No reference to the KDAC what so ever.

If a direct comparison was made between a CD94 transport and Mario's old DAC compared to your DDDac fed from a RPi then differences could be heard.  Whether those differences would tip the favour either way is purely down to the listeners preferences as both 'devices' have their own way of doing things, these differences will either work with or work against the rest of the replay chain, this is what I was referring to, hopefully this clarifies.
[/font][/font]
V
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 05, 2015, 10:03:37 PM
Reinhard, what are your thoughts of Chanh's DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192  :)

...this is one of the hottest DDDAC1794s out there around the globe... and I told already: 50% of the sound is generated by the DAC itself, and the other 50% by the corresponding power supply... I wouldn't have believed if not heard myself what a trap "power supply" is to not be able to get the most out of the DAC...

just the other day I talked to Jean, and we have started to discuss a potential meeting and testing of these hottest DDDAC1794 in Europe in Paris in summer... during the last year there have been made so many detailed and single progresses, it is that much that one easily looses sight, and I think time has come to check this all out side by side...

...and as a location I proposed Paris because here are some very ambitious people with different WE-systems, the all self built system of Prof. Shih, mono-systems and others...

and yes, I admit, I very much would like to have the DAC from Chanh within this test...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on January 05, 2015, 10:16:00 PM
Yes good call, 50/50 chips and power supply - after all, all audio is a modulated power supply so get this right and you are a long way to getting everything sounding good.

Somehow I don't think Chanh will expose his dac to a trip to Paris and back as the drop it and scarper merchants would do their worst, fine for caps and resistors but a whole dac without case?????
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on January 06, 2015, 02:39:10 AM
Hi R,

Happy to send my version of DDDAC over for your gtg once I am able to house it proper. Who knows I might bring myself there too? ;)

Btw, Pin20 CCS and few other things I need finalised. Should be able to get tweaked raw unregulated PS up and running with 4-poles AG caps soon.

Chanh
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 06, 2015, 06:43:53 AM
Hi R,

Happy to send my version of DDDAC over for your gtg once I am able to house it proper. Who knows I might bring myself there too? ;)

Btw, Pin20 CCS and few other things I need finalised. Should be able to get tweaked raw unregulated PS up and running with 4-poles AG caps soon.

Chanh

Hi Chanh,

that would be very generous of you... well, at the moment nothing is fix, we just circle around the month of june to let that happen... in any case Doede and Jean have to be part of it, we need to have the experts with us, because there is always something to measure, to solder, to control and so on...

if you would like to come personally - that would be the best - you are of course heartily invited...
it would be utmost fun if supersurfer, dwjames and others could come as well (for them it is "only" some 4-6 hours...) and me dreaming of Jean making a report about all that, showing the industry what is really going on..., but I cannot promise
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on January 06, 2015, 08:05:17 AM
Sounds like a Killer GTG in Paris !!!

Chanh, you need to get Flemo to make you a sexy case out of Australian wood, and then give them something to drool over, as your unit sits proudly in the DDD lineup. :)

Would be an awesome event, I'm sure.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on January 06, 2015, 04:12:13 PM
Reinhard, is Jean still using the 120chip DDDAC1543MK2 I sold to him?

How do you personally find your DDDAC1543MK2 differs sonic-wise to the newer DDDAC1794 NOS design? 
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on January 07, 2015, 12:07:52 AM
Reinhard, is Jean still using the 120chip DDDAC1543MK2 I sold to him?

How do you personally find your DDDAC1543MK2 differs sonic-wise to the newer DDDAC1794 NOS design?

Hi Tuyen,

you ask two „simple“ questions and it causes an essay to reply... let me try…

Yes, of course, after several times of listening here with us over the last couple of years Jean was able not only to listen to but to develop some sort of getting “used to” the sound of Klaus’s and my system. If you are not used to Formula I, you presumably will not realize that much some tweaking here and there). Not that the frequencies are “different” to those of other systems, the way they are reproduced and “put together” are simply different and reach another (let me say: more natural, lesser and lesser and yes, even still much more lesser disturbing) level…

So, when this was “done” Jean began to try to “torture” us and our systems with his own reference recordings, dynamic range level reaching up to 20 (!) on CD (!!!)…. (Mauricio Kagel 7 - Nah und Fern (1995) - 01 Nah und Fern

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/02/jean-hiragas-disks-dept-mauricio-kagels.html

Ondekosa - Fujiyama (1997) 03 Fujiyama (XRCD (what a bass!),

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2012/05/jean-hiraga-sensei-san.html

Shinichi Yuize - Japan Koto Classics (2008) - 01 - Zangetsu (Lingering Moonlight)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2hcdqpj.jpg)

this creating the illusion of Japanese cherry flower celebration in your room, you know, just a single instrument, the classic Koto, filling out the whole room with single waves: wow!...

...his digital glasmaster of the Beatles (aahh, no, not only another sound, another dimension…. presumably we all want to listen to The Beatles this way… but they still don’t give it to us…)

And yes, of course, Jean is not only “still using” his DDDAC1543MK2 with 120 chips (like me), it was the listening experience here with me and Bernd’s controlled power supply that made him want to get that, exactly that… but he had to learn – like me – that it is not simply done with connecting a DAC like this with any power supply…. This was for me as well one of the biggest surprises in amelioration in HiFi to ever come across… all the DDDACs are really fantastic, no doubt about it, but with a really “suiting” power supply for 12 Volt and 5 Volt, the music is not only “good”, or “very good” or even “sublime”, it simply reaches magic…

I told already several times elsewhere here on the site, for example, #187:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,842.msg17536.html#msg17536

or over at Stefano’s…

anyway, when starting Jean still was convinced – like us several years ago – that the clean power supply from a battery would bring the most out of our DACs, and so Jean brought “ultra” batteries like this

(http://i57.tinypic.com/1zfpuyo.jpg)

he had them in use for his presentations on the HiFi fair in Tokyo and elsewhere in Japan – where the current is 100 Volt and not 220 Volt like here in Europe

We were used to large lorry batteries with some thirty, forty kg weight each, and this was good, the background in sound was quiet, but from our today point of view did not match the difference between absolutely superb and “just right”…

I cannot repeat all that I have already written elsewhere, but regarding the different developments regarding digital stream and power supplies you might want to search on this site and/or re-read for example:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/06/digital-skyrocketing.html

http://twogoodears.blogspot.it/2014/01/a-new-reinhard-huttenburgs-review.html

Not only Jean was immediately convinced with the “other” quality in combination, and so several months later he totally quiet brought a self built power supply for his (your former) DDDAC1543 with him and didn’t say a word, but I could read in his face what he was thinking of….)

Well, supersurfer claimed a few months ago that the “dutch front” meanwhile has developed a power supply that is even better than Bernd’s… well I have yet to hear this – as well as all the other tweakings… these alone are reason enough to have another meeting… but in the meantime there have come out so many others that I am rather loosing track…

I like them very much, these tweakings, but generally I have my “problems” with – as good as they might be – ameliorations that have not yet “settled down”, like burning in and so on (not only new DAC-boards but as well power supplies and waveIO and whatever…  on the last meeting in april these things were all brand new and might have led to some sort of too quick conclusions here and there…

and secondly when more than one amelioration are working together in a field that I am not at all used to… so, I am rather cautious when describing results before they are not that reliable.., (you understand what I mean, that is not to make the different results in ameliorating the sound “smaller” in any way…

…so the “real” and “assured” things regarding the DDDACs and the different power supplies were revealed to us during January till march and may till june last year, when we nearly had all these things here with us for hard core testing and listening to and fro and backward and forward… and so we found out about the controlled power supply with the DDDACs…) … I wrote about these experiences already here on the site and over at Stefano’s…

One of the typical long time won reaction was that battery power reveals the most and the cleanest sound of all… and so Jean and others thought: hey, a power supply, that’s our domain, that’s rather easy, we do that by ourselves… and came out with own versions with power supplies… so we had the different battaries, Jean’s power supply, Doede’s power supplies and Bernd’s side by side, not to forget the professional one from Mundorf…

You might want to have another look here, #169:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,842.160.html

not to make anything bad let alone “enemies”, everyone is responsible for his own luck, but personally I am not convinced with the so much all around praised Sowters… and this result makes me “doubt” a little regarding all the other “ameliorations”, so nothing appears more necessary than a testing out side by side with more than my only ears….

The basics are clear, but the final race in tweaking is not yet done… anyway, both DDDACs is that what we are looking for, and I can hardly describe the “aaahhhs” and “ooohs” when we lately switched from 120 chips to 240 chips, and Jean was the first to scream out loudly… and he is a very polite and modest and reserved man… but everybody knows when dreams come true one jumps out of his suit…

Let me quote Doede himself:

#126

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,842.120.html

and add: DDDAC1743 with 240 chips is the best CD-repro I ever heard, but to remain fair, the ultimate DDDAC1794 is not yet finally constructed, but I can honestly say this is the best repro for 24 bits that I have heard, and I have the feeling that this DDDDAC1794 may reach the level of the DDDAC1743 for 16 bit when it is “fulfilled”… so, the whole development-process in both camps remains more than exiting…. the ameliorations during last year let me presume this… then one will “need” only one DAC, but at the moment, I’m more than glad to have both…

meanwhile, the other day someone asked me, how I would “measure” the quality of our reproduction with these DACs…. well, a picture tells more than 1.000 words

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2q8ue4m.jpg)
(Bruno, neighbor and co-developer of Jean…)


P.S. By the way - I cannot find it at the moment, but the link must be here on the site - Jean, in November 2013 in Berlin used his DDDAC1543 with his own power supply to demonstrate the reproduction of scratching of 78 shellac records, a long time wish and goal which was to reach - and now seems to have been reached (perhaps somone can help me find that file? thanks)



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 09, 2015, 02:58:49 AM
well, I talked already quite a lot about the DDDAC1794, but please, just don't let me ever tell my own nonsense...

let me quote you Supersurfer from the DIY-site here:

# 3298

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-393.html

"This dac beats any vinyl player!

Although I do not worship specifications, just compare the dac specs with that of a prime MC or MM element. Just look at the dynamic range and channel separation. Who are the vinyl guys kidding to think this would yield to higher resolution than the best digital rigs..........
And then the rumble of the platter drive, or the way the data is getting more compressed when raching the center of the record, or the dust in the grooves, or bad RIAA correction............. I can go on and on and on........"

I esteem Stefan very much, he is a very nice guy, and very competent in DIYing and able to discuss with Doede on the same level, and I had already the pleasure to listen to his developments last April...

well, to make it simple: he is quite a lot ahead of us regarding that specific matter...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: gamve on February 09, 2015, 02:39:05 PM
"This dac beats any vinyl player!

This is a big statement, Don't get too carried away. What is the next step? "This DAC sounds better than the mastertape"?

These sorts of comments are not helpful and should be left to sales marketing departments where they belong.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ochremoon on February 09, 2015, 04:05:06 PM
My BS meter is off the scale now...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on February 09, 2015, 04:30:58 PM
I find that some CDs on the right CD player can sound as good or better than the same on vinyl but it is so dependant on the pressing. Most CD generally sound like sh!t, that is the problem.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Tuyen on February 09, 2015, 05:22:23 PM
Quite a silly comment to make indeed.

Everyone with real experience between the various formats knows that the mastering/pressing quality of the recording is the single most critical factor with regards to playback performance/quality on any half decent music system.   

OK the above is just my opinion.   I'm sure there are guys out there who reckon vinyl always sounds better. No buts!   (Even though the original master is recorded and mastered completely in the digital domain which is then pressed onto vinyl and released as a limited edition and sold at a premium price!)  ;D

Best bet is to have the ability and enjoy all formats on your system.   Don't limit yourself.  It's not healthy!       

I currently have a basic $500 turntable setup now (after down grading from a ~$7000 setup)  and am actually more content  than ever!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on February 09, 2015, 07:23:43 PM
I currently have a basic $500 turntable setup now (after down grading from a ~$7000 setup)  and am actually more content  than ever!

Now I really want to know your TT setup Tuyen, I've been looking around but they are so expensive!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on February 09, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
"This dac beats any vinyl player!"
Interesting comments from Stefan! Abit out of character though?

Over the weekend, I happened to critically listen to loan TT setup vs my own DDDAC & BBB combo. I thought both sound fantastic. I found the vinyl with certain pressing sounded pretty dam engaging and extremely musical. Nevertheless, some well mastered recording also sound fantastic via my CA setup, a bit less engaging but was not far off. If it wasn't for the price tag for a decent TT setup, I would be TT all the way...! :)
http://youtu.be/k994pnio0C8
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 10, 2015, 08:47:31 AM
...it appears to me that the general „problem“ ultimately is  n  o  t  about “what is better?”, this source or that, but to get the „information“ which is very “individually” and “specifically” stored within the specific media to get most accurately reproduced out of any source, and no matter what source, may it be vinyl, CD, SACD, tape, cassette or whatever…. all these different kinds of storage have a character of their “own”, and as they are not “identical” their individual results can not be compared… but that’s exactly what we heavily tend to do…

when I take different buildings I cannot say: this is better than that, I cannot say the Eiffel Tower is “better” than Cologne Cathedral, that is highestly subjective… but I can say: this building for example is some 15 meters higher than that or something like that…

…and the same is valid for the different measurement results of these different sources/storages… these are comparable, because in the scientific sense they generate a “common” thing, waves and intensity and velocity and stability and impact and… and that’s why the technicians/physians/electro-acousticians measure and public the results not only to be able to see the results but to compare them and experience how they differ…

well, we ultimately all trust our ears, of course, no doubt, but physical measurements are a reliable indicator of what’s going on and where …

I can't help myself but one of the most impressive “results” of measurments (yes, I know, it does not say anything about the sound quality – but take a car, if you hear this one has 200 horse powers, then you have at least an imagination/impression, not knowing of course how the car feels when you drive…) to me was a publication of that what for me is the quintessence of all in HiFi, it is the squares and their behaviour…

yes, I know there are much more educated DIYers and electronic-engineers out there than me who fight against it, but I have no other explanation for the obviously measurable and listenable results, and therefore I’m glad that at least some official magazines report about exactly that phenomenon… (if memory serves me well than I have shown this already elsewhere… nevertheless, I cannot emphasize this enough from my point of view), the squares are precisely measurable and they show the typicity of the storage of the media h  o  w   it is being reproduced, so please, have a look here:

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ojifpu.jpg)

and here the squares of Doede's DDDAC1794:

(http://i61.tinypic.com/j7x1mv.gif)

so, with 1.000 cycles everything in the world, no matter what amplifification, tube, SS or whatever, is totally fine, no problem for them all...

but to bring that HiFi to the point that we are looking for, we have to go down in the cellar to the extremes, down to 20 cycles and up in the sky to 40.000- 50.000 cycles and even more... and here it is where superiority in music reproduction shows with preciseness and stableness and velocity and naturality (lesser and lesser boring)...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/eiowf9.gif)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/jh69ok.gif)

Quote from Doede's site: “Squarewave 20Hz
A very special case. The top of the square wave is a straight line. When it would be 100% flat it would be DC, or 0Hz. Of course that is impossible, but if it comes close, it shows the output can go very low. As described before the low frequency cut off is indeed very low, so therefore you see the top almost flat and hence an almost perfect square at 20Hz...”

For more have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

perhaps Stefan has expressed himself a little awkwardly, but I understand what he means and what he wanted to say… I am deeply convinced that he thought in this sense when he “judged” about the different reproduction “styles”…

…and I had the same impression when about a year ago we had a listen to André Klein’s WE-system, which is a joint venture development with Jean Hiraga, where the latter at the moment has integrated his latest developments of power amps Kaneda-style…  you might want to have a look here:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/10/a-very-musical-weekend-hopkinsons-smith.html

Well, it is clear, that from point of measurement CD and DAC are obviously far superior to vinyl, and that the measured pick-up does not belong to the worst, but the different pick-ups are so different in sound and behavior as they have ever been, that way, that there seems no common sense, i.e. ultimately “equal” result reachable… already at the end of the 1950ies the flood and diversity of pick-ups was immense and confusing and overwhelming… have a look here…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/255u98p.jpg)

…and it seems that nothing has changed ever since… just the contrary… if I read for example Stefano’s comments on his site, then vinyl with the “right” pick-up is the most…. o.k… but with what pick-up does one get “the most” ? I don’t know

…even the other day when we had our last meeting at André with his armada of own TT and pick-ups and Thomas Schick with his TT and tonearm and his additional army of different pick-ups the reproduction of vinyl remained “very poor” - to quote someone (no I do not name, but you really would be very surprised who it was) - although some claimed it might have had to do with the connection - in comparison to the DDDAC1794 with the “right” controlled power supply…

...you might want to have a look for yourself at the Western Electric system of André and some of his other stuff like amps and different TT and pickups up to 78 rpm machines and and and…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq2jw72RUaI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ISl2OrgdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y7XLybWyH0

or the one from Tim Gurney which I will listen to coming summer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ9ivsBGOXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbiUzD9dVtY

during the 1970ies and 80ies for more than 15 years I myaelf was a very proud user of EMT 927 and 930 St versions with TD15 pick-ups, ultimately even modified with van den Hul finishing… and I was content, I even had the feel that this was “the” combination to get the most out of vinyl…

yes, till digital entered… no, not the initial entering, I mean that what we have now… to me it appears like in television with Pal, HD and UltraHD… vinyl, CD and DDDAC… interestingly in video nobody complains about the progresses with higher resolution, and nobody is tweaking anything in that area, and I hear nobody scream: analogue is better than digital, if you only tweak the right way…

well, to get my personal doubts regarding TT and digital finally eliminated it came out now that our journey to Japan will happen in May this year, with Jean Hiraga as our guide, with André Klein and the owner of Lencoheaven, Jean Veys

(http://i59.tinypic.com/160cyth.jpg)

who regularly celebrates superb HiFi-sessions at his barn near Brussels…

for pixes from last year you might want to go here:

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=14878.0

all highest end, all WE and EMT and pickups and and and..

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2a5kxah.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2e4b47s.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/zxtzqa.jpg)

we will visit and listen to a dozen and more absolutely highest end of the last century, Siemens, Klangfilm, Western Electric of all kind, Goto, Ale and from what André told me yesterday perhaps even an original Euronor !

Slowly but steadily I’m getting more and more nervous about how this will all turn out…
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on February 10, 2015, 06:16:47 PM
Reinhard, i dont think i have come across a more passionate audio lover.   Your adventures make for great reading !!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on February 10, 2015, 07:26:22 PM
Reinhard, i dont think i have come across a more passionate audio lover.   Your adventures make for great reading !!
I second that, great reading and what I like..... passion.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 10, 2015, 09:45:08 PM
you might enjoy this vid here from the 2014 lencoheaven session....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpk7NjkQMH0

... Jean and André will be part of the next meeting there in June...

this could be a nice place to test out digital, couldn't it ??? who knows...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: gamve on February 10, 2015, 10:42:38 PM
Big names, big gear, big deal. Is this stuff really relevant to our real world situations? I think not. It's nice to think full horn WE systems and whatever but reality is a different place for most of us. I'm pretty sure that most guys on this forum are not millionaires and we are definitely not checked pants european wankers. You wanna keep sprouting this dream, fine go ahead. I'm sick of seeing this drivel and hearing this bullsh!t so Bye Bye from this thread.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on February 11, 2015, 10:25:55 AM
Reinhard, I love the posts, please keep them coming... very enjoyable :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on February 11, 2015, 10:54:05 AM
Big names, big gear, big deal. Is this stuff really relevant to our real world situations? I think not. It's nice to think full horn WE systems and whatever but reality is a different place for most of us. I'm pretty sure that most guys on this forum are not millionaires and we are definitely not checked pants european wankers. You wanna keep sprouting this dream, fine go ahead. I'm sick of seeing this drivel and hearing this bullsh!t so Bye Bye from this thread.
hmmm..! Puzzling to why you are so personally offended? Nothing R was saying are offensive. If any he is just a passionate and blindly in love with DDDAC technology! There is no need getting frustrated...!  ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 12, 2015, 08:18:07 AM
... a little off topic perhaps, but as it has to do with Jean Hiraga's presentation of his DDDAC1543 with 120 chips at the last ETF (European Triode Festival) in Berlin end of 2014 and several japanese audio afficionados of which I will happen to visit in some three or four months this coming may I thought this link might be of interest what "they" did and do...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2hhhjed.jpg)

...and if this is not really passionate, to carry some 800 kg of HiFi equipment around half the globe for a single presentation, then I don't know...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/107qirb.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/k2mk9t.jpg)

...this might be of special interest for tube afficionados...

...and on one picture you can see at least a little of what systems they listen to in their mother country:

http://www.jacmusic.com/html/diversen/ETF/2014/index-ETF-2014.htm

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on February 14, 2015, 03:31:58 AM
Hi R,
At some points, we must accessed the logic of one's opinionated rather eagerly convinced as reader. There is distinctly different between passionate vs blindly felt in love. For once, none of these guys at diy DDDAC thread have taken DDDAC beyond where I have previosly had in every possible way. Therefore claiming what Stijn has had is never realistic.  ;)

Fyi, I have done every possible tweaks there are to this DDDAC. Other than the CCS board tweak, where my gut feels not worth doing, but also I reaccessed the logical improvement of this if any? Hence never bother with it.

Hope not to offend anyone here, including you(R)!  ;)
Chanh
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 14, 2015, 05:23:10 AM
Hi R,
At some points, we must accessed the logic of one's opinionated rather eagerly convinced as reader. There is distinctly different between passionate vs blindly felt in love. For once, none of these guys at diy DDDAC thread have taken DDDAC beyond where I have previosly had in every possible way. Therefore claiming what Stijn has had is never realistic.  ;)

Fyi, I have done every possible tweaks there are to this DDDAC. Other than the CCS board tweak, where my gut feels not worth doing, but also I reaccessed the logical improvement of this if any? Hence never bother with it.

Hope not to offend anyone here, including you(R)!  ;)
Chanh

no, no offending at all, it is always the facts and the results that count... and at least we are here to try it out...

...as it happens I am able now to invite you to come to Paris on June 5-6,7 to a DDDAC shootout on the best systems that Paris has to offer (different WE-systems 15a, 13, 16... and others, under the guidance of Jean Hiraga, and Doede Douma will come as well, fitting everything together...

as it seems to come out the long time editor of Jean will be with us as well, and my intention is to bring all those superb developments to a report, so it would be really great if your personal DDDAC1792 would come out on top....

on SNCF flight Paris - Melbourne and back at the moment is 920 €... I know money is always short, so I will give you 100 € as a contribution if you manage to come...

and with a little luck we will then have Doede's new DDDAC-DSD with us, but I cannot yet promise that...

...I just talked to him and he told me that he would be very happy to meet you and have your absolutely fantastic work here with us...

indeed, we are very curious to try this all out... and all side by side, with all the different kinds of power supplies, so that we then all will know what's going on and where we are...

and with a little luck we will have Supersurfer and DWjames with us as well, but they have not yet confirmed..

how about that ??? please tell me....
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: omodo on February 14, 2015, 11:00:19 AM
that sounds like quite the opportunity & experience with such company and systems, jump at it!

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on February 14, 2015, 08:46:50 PM
...as it happens I am able now to invite you to come to Paris on June 5-6,7 to a DDDAC shootout on the best systems that Paris has to offer (different WE-systems 15a, 13, 16... and others, under the guidance of Jean Hiraga, and Doede Douma will come as well, fitting everything together...

on SNCF flight Paris - Melbourne and back at the moment is 920 €... I know money is always short, so I will give you 100 € as a contribution if you manage to come...

how about that ??? please tell me....
Hi R,

I feel privileged and thankful for the invite! Certainly a rare opportunity with eyes/ears opener for me personally. Delightful accepting your invite pending my workload at time. Should unforeseen circumstance constraints I this opportunity when the time comes, I will endeavour sending this DDDAC over for the event.

Thank you for your offering with finiacial support, may I exchange the offer for your time during my stay? Funding should not be an obstacle, however, your time and mine can be a possibility! ;)

Will keep you posted via private email?

Many thanks again,
Chanh

 
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 22, 2015, 09:05:31 PM
and yes, last not least, this is some very nice housing for the DDDAC1794 and the power supply done by James, which I admire very and which might serve for own inspirations... I still have to do this for my own DDDACs...

and to minimize the influences of the PSU on to the logic to do separate cabinets, this is a very good idea... I have done this for my own  pre-amp and channel deviders already some twenty years ago...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2w6wi0i.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/xuasn.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/r8wi83.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/23jfmub.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2nvgz89.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/29xjkoy.jpg)


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on February 22, 2015, 09:33:47 PM
you know much better than me where to get the right things for DIY... but I don't know, personally I am not a plastic fan (neither in HiFi nor in the kitchen), but love "solid" connections... so I prefer Swiss LEMO... you might want to have a look here:

http://www.lemo.com/en/products

my type is FFA.4S

(http://i61.tinypic.com/15ehkas.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/5arg34.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/29p6qmb.jpg)

and the Lemo-connection mounted:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/335czl3.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/140an1x.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/vvnus.jpg)

...both parts connected look like this... to be understood: this is for both the 12 Volt and the 5 Volt finely separated in one connection :

(http://i61.tinypic.com/aktz00.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on February 22, 2015, 10:12:55 PM
you know much better than me where to get the right things for DIY... but I don't know, personally I am not a plastic fan (neither in HiFi nor in the kitchen), but love "solid" connections... so I prefer Swiss LEMO... you might want to have a look here:

http://www.lemo.com/en/products

my type is FFA.4S

(http://i61.tinypic.com/15ehkas.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/5arg34.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/29p6qmb.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1i2142.jpg)

and the Lemo-connection mounted:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/335czl3.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/140an1x.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/vvnus.jpg)

...both parts connected look like this... to be understood: this is for both the 12 Volt and the 5 Volt finely separated in one connection :

(http://i61.tinypic.com/aktz00.jpg)
very nice connectors  ;) ;)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: vitavoxdude on February 23, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
 :) Yes Lemo connectors are used where the connection needs to lock and provide a non tarnishing finish, they can also be stood on without breaking, many of the things demanded in industrial applications.  Ultrasonics and ACFM are two applications of such sockets and plugs. I like the red dot location guide, no more rotating the damn plug until it engages, the XLR connectors are another example of great connectors, RCA 'cinch' by comparison look awful and very fragile! However did these become the norm....probably low cost.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Jehuty on February 24, 2015, 01:05:33 AM
http://www.lemo.com/en/products

my type is FFA.4S

Thank you so much for this useful info. I've been looking to upgrade my 45 amp power supply connectors and the Lemo seems to be the best available option.

I have to say though that I don't mind plastic connectors as long as they're high quality, e.g. WBT NextGen RCA sockets, Eichmann Bullet Plugs, Eichmann Cable Pods, etc

With regards to the Lemo FFA 4S that you use, I can't help but notice that the connectors are made of brass. I haven't thoroughly checked all the Lemo products but the connectors of the plastic Lemo are actually made of copper, see http://www.lemo.com/catalog/ROW/UK_English/P_series_catalog.pdf (WARNING: 9 MB PDF file).

So, based on the connectors material, I think I will go for the Redel P series. Not sure how much but I will be in touch with Lemo suppliers. If anyone knows where to get them, please feel free to share  :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 03, 2015, 10:49:28 PM
there has been a fantastic shoot-out at Supersurfer regarding the most important tweakings of the DDDAC-1794 from over the last year...

I do not want to produce redundant information, so let me just link to the program:

Supersurfer #4085

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-409.html

dddac #4089
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-409.html

dddac #4094
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-410.html

and the results:

Supersurfer #4110
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-411.html

dwjames #4111
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-412.html

and there is another report which has impressed me very much:

emyeuoi from South Korea #4119

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-412.html

(http://i60.tinypic.com/wch69u.jpg)

and the endlessly untamed efforts of dwjames regarding further developments, with "Hogeberg" and a bunch of pin20 ccs options mounted up for comparison

(http://i60.tinypic.com/9fyvdg.jpg)

my, oh my, what a sesssion, and what tweakings !!! Bravo !!!!

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Peter A on March 06, 2015, 02:01:28 PM
Have a read at this link:  http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue77/dsd_master.htm.  It is titled:

Musings on DSD: Using Offline Conversion from DSD to High-Resolution PCM Files Rather Than Using a DSD-capable DAC
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on March 22, 2015, 05:27:15 AM
well, you will always judge for yourself, but I think it can never be a disadvantage to listen to the experiences of other DIYers...

so let me quote this one from here:

http://www.audio-creativeshop.nl/?product=complete-dddac-kit-usb-spdif#reviews

"Adam (US) – 18 February 2015:

I finished my single-board DAC and two PSUs today, with Cinemag output transformers. I plugged it in to my Sqeezebox, configured everything, and let it rip on my SET 300b rig (DIY).
Holy smokes, my mouth hit the floor three hours ago and has not returned to my face! I have been listening all afternoon, hearing stuff I never heard before. The things I notice over my (cheap) tube DAC I was using are much tighter bass, more detail, wide staging, and more presence. Coupled with a very non-fatiguing, natural sound. It is also dead quiet on 98db/speakers.

Thanks for putting such an excellent DAC in the hands of the DIY crowd!"
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 19, 2015, 09:21:59 AM
...there is some spectacular news going on on the DIYer site, from Chanh, regarding his researches for the power supply of his DDDAC1794...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/a5fat4.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/308gzup.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1zptlog.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/1532paa.jpg)

for more pixes and datails you may go here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-436.html

let me quote Chanh with his newest results:

"I have wired up the dual unregulated ps to DAC. Thank God for no smokes coming out! The benefit was instance, bigger sound stage and every espects of the sound audibly resolutes to another level. Amazing!!! Clearly power is making up of 50% of the SQ. Will conduct another iteration with separate second choke on each analog line. For now, exceeding my anticipation! Wonderful!"

...what I told already quite some time ago regarding our controlled power supply here: it is making 50% of the SQ...

as these (special) results should be valid for any DAC, they may be valuable anyway...

Chanh, my congratulations !!!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 24, 2015, 03:38:59 AM
...this is a new DAC by André Klein from Metz in France, you know the tube-afficionado with Western Electric 15 and double input WE555 on each side...

please, don't ask for details at the moment, I don't know.... and yes, this is not the right place to put it, I propose that we will do this later... when I know more about it... and when I have listened to it... presumably in June at the meeting in Paris...

it is just that I wanted you to be able to have already now a look at the one and only picture that I have just got from Jean... so here it is please...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2gw9mc7.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on April 28, 2015, 07:16:10 PM
...other mothers do have nice daughters as well... so I thought you might want to "see" this here...

coming to a very very special theme... some of you might remember that I claimed already some years ago that there is no "bad" CD out there just "bad" masterings... and I was given a list of "worst" CDs.... but please read for yourself... this is the effect that I meant, now - as far as I have read - experienced for the first time by another ambitious DIYer for whose work I have the greatest respect...

",,,this [...] setup [...] really makes me very happy. I throw on it some music that never before atracted me, but on this I call it "The Magic Box" dac they just shine and reveal so much that I can't just stop to listen to them. It puts you in different dimension and sounds so dynamic, organic, magic and charming I've never heard before."

and

"Great! It is really difficult to imagine better sound that this now!"

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2u62xab.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/1zebo8i.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2s7yn9s.jpg)

when I saw the power supply a thing came to my mind of which there has been - as far as I have read - so far no discussion at all (it seems that all DIYers leave them as is when they get them): ameliorating the sound by stabilising the power supplies with self hardening fluid resin (to get rid of its own vibes)... I have done this for all my single power supplies already more than a dozen years ago... and the result was an amelioration of - say - 2-3% in sound, i.e. more coherency, more stableness, more neutrality, more focus... a small step perhaps, but (to my ears) very very effective in the right way...

if you should want more, please have a look here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-446.html

#4452

and for the upgraded Single Board PCM1794 NOS DDDAC here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/265228-upgraded-single-board-pcm1794-nos-dddac-48.html#post4267107

#477

this might be of special interest for you and your own purposes because all the used parts in there are listed in detail...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: Chanh on May 21, 2015, 12:37:44 AM
Hi R,
Many thanks for your nice compliments!
It is true that a well design ps will noticeable affecting the SQ. I have now finally put an end and able to box up this project! Here are some photos for reference.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/b178828090691473a077fd6e047de983.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/6c880ff95607f4e0fc5fc6fa9ef88721.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/a6ecff193cc3fd8ee64d4a794a8eba1f.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/90243bf867398f042edc12b833ac2d09.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 24, 2015, 08:01:52 PM
Dear Hifi-friends,

just returned from “the” HiFi-trip through Japan from north to south and east to west with André Klein (you know the DIYer from Metz in France with the self-built WE15 system), Dr. Jean-Laurent Veys (the owner of the Lencoheaven-site and great EMT and vinyl-lover), and of course our unique leader and infinitely inspirational source: Jean Hiraga who indeed absolutely perfectly planned, organized and executed our marathon-trip with some twenty extraordinary systems from the last century, including nearly every brand that ever has been written about and that mostly only can be read about but not listened to…

Jean Hiraga opened exactly those doors for us in Japan which presumably for normal HiFi-visitors ever will remain closed. For half a century Jean is a very well known and highly respected man over there, and those HiFi-aficionados, that we visited, gladly had their magazines and books from Jean, dating back till the 1960ies, signed by him with autographs…

Before reporting in detail – I do not know if this is the right place, so you might better put it elsewhere - I have to come back on my own regarding jet-lag… you understand…

For the moment just one picture which I got from Mr. Katou (personally I made more than 2.000), to get you inspired and your mouth watering… there is more to come…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/a1pg01.jpg)

Top: James Wallbridge (you may remember the australian astro-physician who has been already here with us at Cologne, becoming a professor in Japan), André Klein, me, Dr. Jean Veys, mid-range: Jean Hiraga, active musicians and singers of which Mr. Katou has made recordings on CDs), low: two Goto-system owners, Shinichi Tanaka from Goto-society (who planned and executed for Mr. Katou the installation of the whole Goto-system in the back), Toshihisa Katou (owner of the system and professional recording engineer chasing for “the” sound - like me), his wife, and another Goto-system owner)


Anyway: the whole trip was “the” HiFi-lesson in my life…




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 25, 2015, 06:36:42 PM
mmmhhh, my thought is to report slice by slice, as I cannot do everything at once... when it will be finished we may put the whole story to "one" story, so that it is not interrupted ? so, let me start:

What a HiFi-trip !!!

The beginning

The first impression on the journey to HiFi-Japan to my big surprise I did not experience in Japan but way before, half way from Cologne to Paris, our meeting point, in Brussels (Bruxelles). After about 1 ½ hours from Cologne, just leaving Brussels South, Gare du Midi (the station for the European politicians - with corresponding police presence - to leave for The European Parliament)…

…while some sort of a little nervous dreaming of the HiFi-Trip to Japan to come quick like a flash of lightning I was struck in awe getting aware of that horn not in a HiFi-listening room but in the public, quickly passing by outside the window, free for everybody to use and shout out loud, getting amplified by this horn…

… the horn is called PASIONARIA, “Porte Voix” (translated: “transporting the voice”), it is made out of 10 mm stainless steel (INOX), it possesses some 4,25 meters in length and has a mouth opening of 2 meter 30, a size that we are used to here for more than 30 years in the bass, but not in the mid-range…

…so my immediate thought was: How would that horn sound in a HiFi-system ???... well, I do not know yet, but as it is installed in Brussels, not that far away from where I live, I will visit it again and then try it out personally…

…the horn was created in 2006 by the artist Emilio Lopez-Menchero from Belgium… it is installed at the Avenue de Stalingrad, prolonging the street, right in the centre of Brussels…

…the horn is a sign, a symbol and a public instrument, something like “Speaker’s Corner” in Hyde Park in London, accessible for everybody by a staircase made out of concrete in combination with some stainless steel railings…

…if you are in for an adaptation into your system, the PASIONARIA is not just a horn, the construction and execution was scientifically supervised by the sound engineer Johan Vandermaelen. For further inquiries you may contact the society “Firme Moker", atelier métallurgique...

… unfortunately it was too quick for me on the train with restricted view outside the window so I did not manage to get my camera ready inside the Thalys, a high speed train running to and fro from Cologne to Paris, to shoot pictures by myself, so I felt free to adapt some form the internet (credit to the owners of the pictures)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/iptudy.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2w53i13.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/r8tkdw.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/55q89k.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/fm00ok.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2dlkepe.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/rck9jb.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/4ui0co.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2w53i13.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/9j0paq.jpg)




Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on May 25, 2015, 10:32:20 PM
Love that horn.
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 27, 2015, 03:07:42 AM
Meeting in Paris, entering Japan…

Well, after arriving at Paris, staying the night at the hotel, the gang met at around 8:30 at the airport CDG (Charles de Gaulle)…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/10da1k0.jpg)

(from left to right: Jean Hiraga, André Klein, Dr. Jean-Laurent Veys)

…and because after some heavy body control and finally checking-in there was nothing left to do but waiting for the flight itself Jean-Laurent invited us for a dozen oysters and a fresh glass of Chablis…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2gtcl0y.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/ruu248.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/ezonll.jpg)

aaahhh, what a start in the morning heading to Moscow…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/a4su4m.jpg)

…finally after some four hours flght arriving at Moscow…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2ylpbmo.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/amt8xj.jpg)

...the intercontinental culinary trip was not yet over… it went on with an original selected bottle of Vodka..

(http://i61.tinypic.com/u5t1h.jpg)

...we were so euphoric that we were not aware that it is forbidden to officially consume alcoholics within the airport, but we had good luck, a sensible waitress helped us out with a cover to hide the bottle so that we were able to continue with “nasdarowje”…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/30iak9c.jpg)

(see the "hidden" bottle of vodka in the middle of the table)

...and – of course – no less than original duty free caviar to combine with...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/5kipeb.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/mcqf0g.jpg)

…so, the afternoon was already another superb highlight…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/33mlzk6.jpg)

...and on goes the trip to Japan...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/dr785f.jpg)

leaving Moskow...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/eldx04.jpg)

flying over snow-covered mountains...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2em0o4k.jpg)

via Tokyo...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/11hqcud.jpg)

facing the first real rice fields in my life...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2w6c7r4.jpg)

...trying to learn some basic japanese words...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/23tplye.jpg)

...after landing Jean explains the Metro of Tokyo to André...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2uehh5f.jpg)

...and it becomes immediately clear: we are in another land...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2qx7plh.jpg)

...arriving in Asakusa, in the north-east of Tokyo for our hotels...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/ncfd4z.jpg)

..seeing for the first time the new famous landmark of Tokyo: the television tower with some 680 meters in height...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/sf8dba.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/29vkytf.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/epf4si.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1628u43.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2hwedqc.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2m4dkeh.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/oqxb2b.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2ueo4r5.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/14lrki0.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2dt57oj.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/anm2rk.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/6ygkxv.jpg)

...and slowly but steadily we got in the mood for the things to come...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 27, 2015, 07:37:56 AM
Visiting Mr. Odagi and Mr. Ishii...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/futjpv.jpg)

(from left to right: Mr. Odagi, Mr. Ishii)

It is very well known that space is very limited and expensive, not only in Japan in general, but especially in Tokyo. Japan is completely surrounded by the sea, and the land in wide ranges is covered with rather high mountains and valleys in between to live, the view reminded me immediately of Switzerland. Most of these parts cannot be used for building purposes, neither other parts because of being marshy and/or not earthquake-proof…

…from what I could see nearly every square-centimeter is “full” and in use, and there is hardly any more space which may be further used for civilization or whatever building processes…

…well, after driving with the Metro through Tokyo for about an hour or so, we reached our destination, Mr. Odagi’s house. But one must not think that we had already “left” the city and entered some suburbs or so, no, still busy city, nearly the same as in the center, just a little lower the skyscrapers and a little more sky…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/70kigw.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2edrq15.jpg)

Mr. Odagi’s house is quite a “normal” one in the area and somewhat comparable to mine regarding the construction on the earth, not below (all expensive enough, but in Tokyo even much much more)…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2cyhs3.jpg)

…and so I was expecting a listening room with some 12 till 15 square meters like usually shown in german HiFi-magazines when being reported about Japanese music lovers and their systems in narrow rooms…

..but oh, how wrong I was… after entering and pulling off our shoes and slipping into some comfortable house-shoes, Mr. Odagi led us, as it turned out, to the entry of an elevator, which drove us some - estimated - 10-15 meters down into the earth, and when leaving there was an entrance door, that thick and stable and massive and safe, that it reminded me of special security doors with no unallowed entry possible when doing military service with weapons long time ago, leading into a some 30 square meters large only HiFi listening-room with some 3,50 meters in height…

...inside Mr. Ishii was already waiting for us. After practising typical repeated Japanese bowings all around, heartily shaking hands for us Europeans, exchanging some small guest presents...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/vjs7l.jpg)

(from left to right: Mr. Ishii, Jean-Laurent Veys, Mr. Odagi)

...sipping a glass of champaign at exactly the perfect temperature (there were some 28-30 °C outside) and after having been at some original French Camembert, the happening began…

…to make it short, Mr. Odagi is a very ambitious HiFi-aficionado able to afford quite a lot far above average, he is very well equipped with the best money can buy. The electronic components of Mr. Odagi’s system consist of a turntable with two tonearms and different cartridges…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2dh5fk7.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/295shzr.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/152dm39.jpg)

the amplification chain including pre-amp, power amps and DAC driven with batteries...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2airdyo.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2n0m35u.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/24ouiqf.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1zqr4ue.jpg)

...is all handmade in a very limited edition by Prof. Kaneda. Jean Hiraga takes the circuits of Prof. Kaneda for the best and he makes use of them in his own constructions…the speaker in use are professional JBL studio monitors...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/v3n6mp.jpg)

...these are some brand new JBL studio monitors, as I’ve been told for some 50.000 € a pair, a limited edition in Japan as well of course, sold out within days…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2gtvtqs.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2vuf394.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/241o5u0.jpg)

…Mr. Odagi has a superbly and finely tuned acoustic environment...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/v2s19k.jpg)

...temperature and humidity controlled... planned, calculated and executed by Mr. Ishii. That what makes his system that very special is indeed the additional room treatment done by Mr. Ishii...

if you might want to contact him, here is his e-mail address: ishii-audio-lab@hi-ho.nr.jp

...Mr. Ishii is a very polite and restraint and knowledgeable scientific electronic engineer, having worked for decades in the development department of japanese “Technics” society, for quite some time retired now, but privately still busy regarding room treatment and optimizing sound within…

…Mr. Ishio is a famous and very well respected man in Japan. He has two books out regarding these specific topics, full of pictures of systems that he has already worked upon accompanied with detailed scientific measurements and treatments of all kinds and sizes of listening rooms throughout Japan…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/dfagcp.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2e64lr9.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/10mihoy.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/jhd3xs.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/mvoux5.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/r10pxf.jpg)

…unfortunately both the books are only in japanese language, there is a translation into English in the making, but not yet available, so I did not acquire the originals at the moment because I definitely want to read and understand what that man has to tell in detail…

…I got some detailed listening impressions of what was achieved regarding the amelioration of the sound as a complement to the electronic equipment... Mr. Odagi tried to "torture" us for example with this record...

Richard Strauss – Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30, The Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Zubin Metha, Solo Violin David Frisina...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2v8l3mh.jpg)

...which also exists as FIM/LIM K2HD 035, K2-HD Audiophile Remastered CD, quoted for being sourced from the “Original Master Tape”, which gets highest praise...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/28l7384.png)

...or with Zaondekoza's drumming, Viktor ST 100 68 Stereo...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2hghkb9.jpg)

...or Stockhausen's Sirius on Deutsche Grammophon which indeed has some very mean and dirty and exciting musical passages for testing rooms, loudspeakers and systems as a whole...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/20k9duu.jpg)

…to illustrate precisely the significance of Mr. Ishii’s active and so far reached research results, let me quote Jean Hiraga: “He is my teacher, my mentor, my guru regarding room treatment during the last 30 years…”

…and when Mr. Ishii started to optimize Mr. Odagi’s home soundwise he cared for a thick platform out of concrete in the listening room, the walls and the ceiling, not only as a protection against possible earthquakes but to stabilize the floor to get it free of resonances and vibrations... and to further "warming" the sound he used a special floor coating which enhences the reduction of reflections...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/154ixpl.jpg)

And as the walls are some 3,50 in height – please remember, we are some 10-15 meters deep down in the earth – they received a treatment with alternately about one meter broad multilayered wood-boards and blue “wholes” filled with some sort of indulgent foam covered with some silk-carpets to avoid resonances, reflections and standing waves…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/ip2jqx.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/65259f.jpg)

…as we were told by Mr. Ishii that what we listen to is reflections in any given room, so that we never ever listen to just one single instrument but “two”, and even if the deviation and time delay is very very small, the reflections have an influence on our sound which is not only measurable but as well listenable… and the delay gets bigger and bigger the bigger the room gets…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/iqztpt.jpg)

…the ambitions of Mr. Ishii tend to reduce or even better mostly reduce these unwanted reflections and all those things that do not belong to the “original” sound, and that clearly can be heard ! The sound gets very dry and precise and nowhere “steril” of “clinical” as I tended to presume…

…the treatment of the ceiling in 3,50 m height was executed according to the measurements done by Mr. Ishii, the same is valid for the floor having been covered with some special wood treatment…

…we were shown some magazines – in Japanese only as well – which impressively demonstrated the research and the work and the creations of Mr. Ishii in quite a lot of extraordinary highest end system throughout Japan…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/1rf7mo.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2v9ye7c.jpg)

what a lucky man, Mr. Odagi ! and rightly so...

thank you very much for this extraordinary and outstanding listening experience !!!


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 27, 2015, 06:06:40 PM
Visiting Tokyo City in the afternoon

Because one planned date in the early afternoon for some reason didn’t happen we shortly decided to visit Tokyo city...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/23u6gx4.jpg)

If one is not used to the Metro-system in Tokyo at first sight one simply is lost as a stranger… plans and maps are mostly in Japanese and in addition driving is on the left, so everything for us was upside down… and most the time, day is night, and night is day for us...

...so we strictly walked behind (there is hardly ever the possibility given to walk side by side) our “leading duck”, Jean, and so all went quick and well and fine… thank you “mother”…

...well, from german television I had already an “impression” of the “total” center of Tokyo, but being live there, nothing helps, being in between there simply has to be experienced to be believed… crowds and crowds and crowds and crowds of people of all kind, mostly natives, businessmen, but as well rather many tourists, standing, watching, walking… totally impressed, amazed, marveled… like us…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2h5qiio.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/14a8rk1.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/30a730y.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2s8fbzc.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/eknqeu.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2aeoxax.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2m5xobq.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/333late.jpg)

…as we felt slighty hungry we were looking for something to eat… so, what better then entering a Sushi-bar right in the middle of Tokyo ? If it should be not good here, where else ?

(http://i57.tinypic.com/1t6eky.jpg)

...entering was still o.k. for us, but the menu made us sigh…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/v620t4.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/160q62b.jpg)

…but we had still our eyes, and everything was top !

(http://i60.tinypic.com/zyhc48.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2uh2xwp.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/24b40u1.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/257kl0i.jpg)

…everything is in absolutely top notch fresh condition, and one can see that…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2qn18o3.jpg)

…there is always some broth/soup to start with, to accompany the meal...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/17a54l.jpg)

...and it partly looked like that… and it tasted like it looked, absolutely gorgeous… the raw “material” is soaked into soja-sauce enriched with – according to taste – green solved wasabi… I could eat these seemingly endless varietes without ending…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/ehgrac.jpg)

Having finished our meal we walked out…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/xav05z.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2d0bek3.jpg)

And Jean led us to something very very special just around the corner…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/14shy0m.jpg)

..the Shibuya’s old and unique Lion café from 1926… Wow!

Tokyo has a endlessly number of big chain coffee shops where the coffee is only average, the prices high and the atmosphere so so... but there are fortunately many alternatives, for example this one…

http://lion.main.jp/

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2003/03/09/general/kissaten-culture-still-on-the-boil/#.VWWowkZDksI

The Lion café first opened in 1926, it burned down during the war, but in 1950 it was rebuilt in the same location, using the original design. A look and feel that thankfully still remains today...

,,,in fact the only changes have been made outside the Lion’s doors, as it has now become one of a very rare breed: a "meikyoku kissa", a classical music cafe. Somewhere people go to sit silently, sip coffee or tea, and soak up the rich sounds… speaking is strictly forbidden, just whispering is allowed, and the coffee is of highest quality…

…as Jean told me, there are more than 200 of these “establishments” within the Tokyo-area, perfect places to escape and simply relax…

...and of course the Lion café has an enormous collection of old vinyl records and CDs which are partly played in a daily fixed program, but it is as well possible to ask for special recordings being played…

...as it is strictly forbidden to take pictures I had to surf the net for some, so credit to the original uploaders…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/ri9s0z.jpg)

…view from our place sipping delicious coffee…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/s1pamu.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2m3ihxt.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/208ics7.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/21a019e.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2eb4qhy.jpg)


I wish we had just one of these over here in Cologne !



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 28, 2015, 01:53:49 AM
Visiting Mr. Yoshihara and his system

The specialities regarding Mr. Yoshihara’s system do not start inside his listening room, but outside his house. He has not one single power line entering from the street, but two: one for the normal purposes within the house like television, washing machine, light and so on, and the other one solely for his HiFi-system…

...so, to get it right, his HiFi-system is supplied by a power station on its own… the outside view looks like this:

(http://i57.tinypic.com/egy8eh.jpg)

The system consists of double Goto membrane basses (SG38WNS if memory serves me well), ALE drivers for the mid- and mid-high range, and a pair of YL-Berillyum tweeters on each side...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/rhlh7d.jpg)

...one playing to the front, and one to the rear side (i.e. two on each side)…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ryqag8.jpg)

…of these only a hundred pairs have been made, and Mr. Yoshihara only has gotten these pairs because of personal knowledge. To get all the components just right no less than Seiya Goto himself has cared for a fortnight for the installing, the measurement and the fine tuning of the system…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/20rkcbq.jpg)

...as digital source Mr. Yoshihara uses a VRDS NEO SACD-player in combination with a rubidium clock which works in billionth seconds, and I am strongly convinced that it is at least for me no fantasy to hear this…it definitely sounds… quicker, more precise, just the right way...

…wow, has he good ears… a very clean sound, very coherently, very harmonic, very well balanced, nothing tiresome or troublesome, with a very fine and pronounced reduction of the faults of the membrane basses, which they generally produce, by doubling the amount to two on each side… and to my ears Goto membrane basses are best in reducing these nasty faults...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/oixb91.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/rmmkk5.jpg)

...for strenthening and stabilisation purposes Mr. Yoshihara uses some 3 cm in diameter and 3-4 mm thick long hard rubber "tube-pieces" adheasively fixed all over the bass and mid range chassis in order to calm down and reduce own frequency resonances...

Mr. Yoshihara is a classic-music lover. And he plays his system within the “best” loudness area, indeed… and to my ears, he is on the “right” way… if he would be able to play that what he has 10 dB louder he would be there where every HiFi-lover wants to be: in HiFi-heaven… he surely is able to play “louder”, but I don’t know if then the “perfect” balance remains kept as is… nevertheless, a really superb system…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/orrwc1.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2uy1z7t.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/301dh94.jpg)

Mr. Yoshihara is a very courteous and polite man, a true connoisseur with an extensive collection of finely selected classical music on vinyl, CD and SACD…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/10f6y5w.jpg)

…although he meanwhile has given up listening to vinyl - a reaction that I definitely can understand given that result - he owns several different turntables and pickups…

…and he hosted us like kings, spoiled us with wonderful food, really superb sushi...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/24pe6id.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/f3ylxj.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/97o3s0.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/24gt0cg.jpg)

...well tempered drinks, cold beer (Suntori) and Japanese sweets…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2jdiept.jpg)

...not only that he very hospitable fetched us from the station, he even brought us back there as well, so we felt very very much as welcomed guests, and all around I could learn a lot and it was much more than fun to listen to his system… thanks a ton Mr. Yoshihara!!!

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2rq278w.jpg)

(from left to right: Mr. Yoshihara, Jean-Laurent Veys, Jean Hiraga, André Klein)

…Jean Hiraga has already intensively reported about the system of Mr. Yoshihara in No. 67 of Stereo Prestige & Image

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2a8oryr.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/15s6fpy.jpg)

...and last not least a recording I enjoyed very much (sorry for the poor quality):

(http://i57.tinypic.com/35he15i.jpg)

Christian Gentet - L'Orchestre de Contrebasses, Best of L'Orchestre de Contrebasses, KINGRECORDS KICC 393. Japan, Import, 2003

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 28, 2015, 09:13:32 PM
..on with the show…

During the whole trip there has been played a lot of music of all kinds, mostly classical and jazz from vinyl old and new, CDs, SACDs, 78 shellacs, originals and covers, too much to refer to all, but please allow me to sprinkle in here and there some of those recordings that indeed caught my attention, soundwise and musicwise…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/xpr31h.jpg)

Isao Suzuki Trio-Quartet - Blow Up, 1973, Vinyl, Three Blind Mice, TBM 15

(http://i59.tinypic.com/14v4ln7.jpg)

Peggy Lee - Black Coffee With Peggy Lee, 1956, Vinyl, Ace Of Hearts – AH 5 (Mono pressing 1961) Orig. US Label (10'')

Just to point out: wherever we had the fun to listen to music, it was no question at all that the very originals were played, and nothing but the originals, always first pressings, the costs for these didn’t seem to matter at all…

…the most “expensive” records that I got to listen to were originals from 1926, three vinyls in top condition, costing some 2.000.000. yen… I leave it up to you to calculate into your currency… pictures will follow of course…

...so, Peggy Lee and Louis Armstrong for example were all played from the original vinyl dating back to 1956, from the original US Label (10'')… what else? might one ask, when money does not play a role…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2eyuglh.jpg)

…and you should have heard all the discussions about different recordings, second pressings, later re-editions (even from other countries), re-masterings, CD- and SACD-versions… I simply was overtaxed, but I was told and I had to “learn” that there are two levels of “informations” when music is being played from such original shellacs (78) and vinyl sources (33 and yes 45), the music and the mostly heavy combined suface-noise…

…when listening to music they manage to abstract from the not to the music belonging “noise”, they simply fade it out and just listen to the music and nothing else…well, of course I understand what they are looking for: the original artists, the original sound, the naturalness with which it has been recorded at the time, and I had my fun…

…but to be honest, being used to more or less crystal clear sound of the digital area, I had my difficulties… the thing that nearly everybody very strongly pointed out is the “three dimensionality” of the original analogue "mono" recording (I still have my problems to "find" out what that exactly is), the warmth, the naturalness in comparison to CD and SACD, exactly this is – according to their conviction - lacking… (well, please don’t expect me to comment on this topic here, I will save my personal impressions regarding digital streaming and how it is mostly used exactly in that country, where it has been invented, till the end of the story…)

(off topic here, right, but regarding specifally “naturalness” just let me hint you to the following discussion that is going to happen… Korg and Sony are introducing DSD live streaming technology…

http://dsd.st/en/

…so far it works for Korg and Sony DSD DACs and not much music is available at the moment for testing, but quality is rather reasonable…)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 29, 2015, 02:20:54 AM
Next day our first meeting was with Mr. Saburo Degawa, one of those HiFi-aficionados who has been at the ETF in Berlin at the end of last year...

http://www.jacmusic.com/html/diversen/ETF/2014/index-ETF-2014.htm

..and who has accompanied us on several occasions during our trip. What a very friendly, polite and knowledgable man!

Mr. Degawa lives outside of Tokyo. He is an electronic engineer. He was the chief of a development-department for resistors and special circuits. He owns more than a dozen patents. Now he is retired. And you may imagine how Jean and André, our DIYers, acquired lots of his latest developments encapsulated in black opaque resin which are not yet on the market but heavily discussed among those who understand what’s going on inside (I have to admit: I do not that much)…

...after leaving the society he worked for he was allowed to make use of his patents outside and develop them further… (I am sorry not to be able to present pictures of these, but my supplies for the camera went out of power, and they are made only for European use… André has made quite a lot and I am sure that we will get them later on…)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/jfvq8j.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/jrfc05.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/av6l3l.jpg)

Mr. Degawa has a very nice listening room, fully equipped with highest end turntable + pickups, CD + SACD player, a superb amplification chain and of course superb speakers and drivers….

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1220p04.jpg)

...handmade power transformers...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1sme7d.jpg)

...former YL-Beryllium drivers...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/343g9pk.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/6q9ovb.jpg)

..just to name a few: different turntables and pickups, pre-amp, Accuphase channel devider, tube power amps, CD- and SACD-player...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/102vzw1.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/r8dsbc.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/eju3gi.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/15xn9m0.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/11javbb.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2q39oxg.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/165939.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/o7sl92.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/ddgbq9.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/30bk8x2.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/24llcnb.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/f0qn1v.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/o0w1mu.jpg)





So, for all the DIYers among us, here is the technical stuff illustrated:

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1ftrvn.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2a0kmcx.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/313gbpy.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ake3k6.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/20rtm3p.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/8wkuc9.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/mil7uu.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/33bmzxi.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ir6uyr.jpg)

There is much more technical stuff, but I leave you with this. Regarding this domain you understand much more than me. You may try it out. It looks very promising. Just let me quote the last sentence of the research results:

“Converting all power supplies for audio system (CD, amplifier, main amplifier) to the second generation series power supplies enables to improve high frequency distortions in power supply circuit and to reproduce all of the lost audio-frequency signals, and also it enables to reproduce the harmonics of a fundamental tone (natural tone) and Hall tone.
Using for digital circuit power supply such as DA converter enables to reproduce accurate digital waveform and to improve brightness and resolution of digital image.”

Just in case that you want more information you might contact Mr. Degawa directly:

Saburo Degawa

A&R Lab

3-10-23 Tsuromati-kita, Hadona-shi, Kanagawa-ken, 257-0001 Japan

Phone: 0463-76-9606

e-mail: sdegwa@mvd.biglobe.ne.jp

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 29, 2015, 05:30:03 PM
It is very nice to experience that the internet gets people together, no matter what country, as to be seen with our Japanese HiFi-friends at the ETF in Germany and their mother country, and that “borders” at least on the human side, in the non-political area, seam to disappear…

…and I am very glad to hear that Stefano from the “TwoGoodEars”-Site...

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2015/05/wjaas-japanese-adventure.html

...has followed us during the whole trip on Facebook and already has posted some pictures as well, which will take me still quite some time till their turn has come being commented… so please enjoy in the meantime and be patient… I do my very best…

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 29, 2015, 05:57:56 PM
In between our very inspiring session with Mr. Degawa we had lunch. He was very generous and so very hospitable that he invited us to a special japanese restaurant completely outside any tourist paths, which has to be experienced to be believed...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/ezpcuh.jpg)

...although it has primarily nothing to do with HiFi per se, the meal fitted so well into the whole “show of the day” that I simply cannot resist and leave it out. That highlight it was…

...you may contact their homepage, because there are much more pictures and of better quality. The site is in english as well, so you may enjoy even better…

www.jinya-inn.com

let me just add those who are personally and related to us…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/11lucs4.jpg)

..nothing but... of course...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2eqfh29.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2v3q2wk.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2mi3kus.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/207mb1v.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1zcpftg.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/992e82.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/ncgrno.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/mwd1c7.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2iurt3a.jpg)

and of course our menu...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/11w3892.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/24wvfut.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/26yc8.jpg)

...it's all the details that make such fun...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/242u51t.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2zs0bw6.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2i9tkzq.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/f9h4m1.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/20iv0xx.jpg)

...and just exactly perfect tempered Lager...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/24mxc81.jpg)

you may imagine with some 28 °C outside how delicious let alone that was !!! aaahhh...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2n8v95i.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/21jvb7l.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zohgns.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/mtudz.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2cfb053.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/iyflg2.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2815zt.jpg)

...and as superb as the menu was as superb was original japanese Taiko drumming afterwards which of course I immediately tried out to get the "real" sound into my ears...

...and hey, how light and dry and easy and dynamic is that sound !!! no bass at all in the sense of boom-boom... wonderful, simply wonderful !!!!

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2uolzkk.jpg)


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 29, 2015, 06:44:31 PM
...after lunch we got back to Mr. Degawa's home and continued our listening session...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/szd5s7.jpg)

front view of Mr. Degawa's system...

...not to forget, Mr. Degawa makes use of a studio loudness attenuator that I like very much:

(http://i58.tinypic.com/mids3t.jpg)

frontside (the pic should be vertical, but for some reason I do not manage that)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2jdetc6.jpg)

...and flip side...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2cdlpj.jpg)

view on Mr. Degawa's superb and extensive record collection in which Jean Laurent Veys got lost regarding his favorite music...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1175h81.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1zeujdk.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/20jqpgw.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2a9sj5t.jpg)

..and on his tube amplification armada...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2zek0g3.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/15g450j.jpg)

...and some recordings that we enjoyed very much...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2s127oz.jpg)

Eiji Yamamoto - Green Sleeves - Bechstein Piano Solo, 1997, YPM-005

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2hx7p8x.jpg)

TBM - Three Blind Mice Records Inc.  - Super Analog Sound of Three Blind Mice (1989) (2004) TBM XR 9002, XRCD 24



Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 30, 2015, 01:51:58 AM
The next day we visited Mr. Kobayashi in Kamagene. We started by bus early in the morning, because we had to ride several hours to get there… the area where he lives is so inaccessible that there is no train connection...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ue5oxk.jpg)

Very friendly and sympathic and hospitable Mr. Kobayashi, a man of taste, and his super kind and super nice and super pretty wife fetched us from the bus station.

(http://i58.tinypic.com/r7om4n.jpg)

(Mr. Kobayashi, Jean Hiraga)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/wqsbgj.jpg)

(Mrs. Kobayashi)

Before they drove us to their home we had a menu at a local restaurant with Japanese self service. Very interesting. Very unusual. But very tasty. I enjoyed it very much, especially the diversity on offer...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/wamvtj.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2jahtw0.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/30wau00.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/122nuw5.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/nq1rur.jpg)

As we were in Japan we said we wanted to eat like real Japanese. And so we were all more than surprised when for the first time in our lives we tasted grilled grass hoppers and bees… after having overcome first hesitations we tasted, and indeed, to our surprise it was really delicious, that delicious that we voluntarily asked for more…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/epjg1t.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/24ybonq.jpg)

...arriving at Mr. Kobayahi's house...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/zwkaz7.jpg)

..entering a HiFi-museum...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/kb8cw.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/25zt2c3.jpg)

with Western Electric WE15...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2yjsugk.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/28qau9.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/ori26q.jpg)

...and the bass chassis beneeth them, rear and front...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ufspjq.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/t86ccm.jpg)

...and here it comes: the ultra rare and ultra expensive (I was told some ten times more than the corresponding WE Tweeter !!! ):

 "Northern Electric Company Limited 596A Loud Speaking Telephone, 1929, 1930 patented, Made in Canada"

which Mr. Kobayashi very friendly made loose to better show us and fixed it afterwards and of which Jean Hiraga said: "I have never ever seen any of these in my life, neither listened to" !!! wow, wow, wow, what a priviledge to experience... thanks a ton Mr. Kobayashi !!!

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2uerb5f.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/15q9bub.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/24awn7r.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2cgec89.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/e7y0dt.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/vmu7ew.jpg)

..and the gang, walking, watching, discussing, demonstrationg, shooting pictures... quite nervous and excited busy with everything all around, in front and behind...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/33kbomt.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/xb0gbc.jpg)



... and for the first time in my life in all its glory exactly as it was at the time: Klangfilm Europa... for cinemas with 1.500 - 2.500 seats...

... " t h e " pure sound of the past...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1zgauqu.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/v4b708.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2vnmlfm.jpg)

...the right part of the folded bass horn...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/qqq2pu.jpg)

...mid-high range...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2vbjszp.jpg)

..the sensational original 70 kg in weight (in words: seventy kilogram) driver

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2v0hbf5.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2nc1gtd.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/16j4q6a.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/10rigy0.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2j3lfdh.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/oknc0j.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/33ab86g.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/11b89jm.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/k96dzd.jpg)

...well, it is understood that all antique HiFi-parts, system-components, amps, drivers and speakers play with nothing but their original equipment of their time...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/rc9afn.jpg)

(picture should be vertical, but I do not manage that...)

there is nothing "tuned" with modern parts and/or modern know-how... Mr. Kobayashi simply likes to listen to music as it was custom at the time nearly 100 years ago...

...if memory serves me well Mr. Kobayashi and André knew each other already from the ETF in Berlin (André is a Western Electric collector as well), and Mr. Kobayashi has visited him already at his home in Metz, in France, so they immediately spoke the "same language" again... what a delight for the both of them and for us to see...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/157nlnd.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2lder7r.jpg)

the same is valid for the vinyls... EMT-turntable, and nothing but original vinyls from the corresponding time...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/sx2a14.jpg)

...pre-amp and CD-player...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/27yvek1.jpg)

...some of the music being played...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/qs6sd0.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2q3cchw.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/vr8ped.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/11c7i3k.jpg)

…and… smiling on all their/our faces…

Mr. Kobayashi’s aim here is definitely not to tune and tweak up a given system to its possible limits (from today’s point of view), but to “reconstruct” and to “preserve" the most of the sound from its original time. A completely different approach than mine, but after getting “used” to it after a certain time, this approach surely and without a doubt has its own legitimacy…

The big bass horn was used in big cinemas and theatres with some 1.500 till 2.500 people from1935 onwards, and regarding the general sound pressure this is the first system to some sort of match Klaus’s sound in bass. The fact is not to confirm that we now - after nearly 100 years - manage to reproduce perhaps a “better” sound but to experience how indeed very very high the possibilities in sound reproduction had already been then. 70 kg in weight for a single driver. My respect…

This driver with its weight easily creates exactly that level in bass that nearly all other systems seem to lack, and it is that easy, that sublime, that light, that it has no problems at all to reproduce a thunder as is in nature…Take cover! It is that realistic…

The sound of that insane and big bass horn is simply sensational, mighty, sublime, huge and massive… we could watch Mr. Kobayashi move the right part of the mouth of the horn open to separate it from the rest getting access to show us the back side of this monster horn with rather narrow bandwidth from 30-400 cycles, but very impressive regarding general sound reproduction taking some 80 years in HiFi historiy to be “re-reached” again with our systems…

The construction of specifically this horn reminded me of some later “creations” and “imitations” of other societies, for example JBL, who took this obviously as a basis wanting to create some sort a “me-too” product, o.k., o.k., but the origin remains german…

...and, who would have thought that, Mr. Kobayashi belongs to the very few users of highest end vintage systems in Japan that I got to know to make use of digital streaming so far at all... ultra-antique HiFi components combined with PC and ultra modern self-built DSD-DAC made by a friend of his to play not only high resolution music from hard drive but as well his own transcriptions from vinyl !!!!...

...and what ? you might ask, does that fit, does that work, does that sound ? Yes, yes, yes, yes, wonderful, really superb, fantastic, it seems as if the "oldtimers" had just been waiting for the digital to come... (... hey, get me right, that is not to make vinyl bad at all...)... but this is indeed a very big surprise...

...regarding DACs Mr. Kobayashi actually has two in use, both self made, one for 16 and 24 Bit, and a brand-new one for DSD. And he is very passionate with these, he likes to listen “through” them with his antique systems with Foobar and Winamp… how progressive is that?

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2nl5pb4.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2dmfhuv.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2u436sm.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/ezjpkn.jpg)

Some more pixes regarding the self-built DSD DAC from Mr. Kabayashi

(http://i61.tinypic.com/292mmbq.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/9thndd.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2v3nhwz.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/30125ip.jpg)


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on May 31, 2015, 12:07:33 AM
…sorry, but we are not yet quite “done” with Mr. Kobayashi and his vintage collection of antique speakers and amps and drivers… the biggest surprise of all of them is still to come…

…presumably everybody of us high enders has already seen a picture of the one and only legendary Klangfilm Euronor !! ? “Yes” or “yes” ?

For those who might not and/or are interested in more information regarding all the different stuff made by Klangfilm GmbH over the years you might go here and surf the very interesting site created by Franck Joncheray:

http://www.klangfilm.org/index.php?lng=0&music=&type=0&frame=0&item=&title=&dir=&num=

there are as well some systems from very well known persons like tone arm producer Thomas Schick and other HiFi-aficionados…

http://www.klangfilm.org/index.php?lng=0&music=&type=0&frame=1&item=&title=&dir=&num

…and then “systems…

…and for the nearly endless varieties of speakers and drivers from Klangfilm you may go here (I have to admit that I have my difficulties to name all things just right, so if I’m wrong, please pardon!)

http://www.klangfilm.org/index.php?lng=0&music=&type=0&frame=1&item=&title=&dir=&num

and then “pictures”…

…but I am rather convinced that hardly anybody has seen or listened to an original Euronor !! in reality… neither did I. So, the only pleasure so far was watching pictures…

…to get an impression of what “Euronor !!” is, Mr. Kobayashi showed us this an the net:

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1z70dv4.jpg)

…and I surfed the net for some more pixes:

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2v7w8io.gif)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/w4bhe.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/i1bql1.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1zm11ts.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/x4jgxs.jpg)

…as we were told, Mr. Kobayashi is the proud owner of one of three world wide known existing original drivers of the Klangfilm Euronor. Two are in Korea, not playing, and one at his home, playing, but not installed...

…fasten your seat belts. This one driver has a size of some 70 centimetres in diameter and a weight of 250 kg (in words: two hundred and fifty kilograms). Man, was that impressive alone to see the driver just lying on the floor, what a size, what a volume lying there under a carpet, now getting reveiled for us by Mr. Kobayahi…

…I became speechless, motionless, was struck in awe, totally perplex !!! Definitely, and for quite some time…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/dosy00.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/r9kfew.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/vfw0ar.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2l8her.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/f38b4g.jpg)

…just to see what german engineers already have achieved in the 1930ies is simply not comparable with anything else that has been produced in HiFi since then and at any time, neither then nor today with any new stuff…

If I only think of the millions and millions of smallest earphones used today by nearly everybody all around and no matter what country, the variability indeed could not be bigger !!! What a degrading from then till today !!! simply incredible…

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 02, 2015, 06:11:23 PM
…but not enough with this, Mr. Kobayashi owns and makes use as well of all the original tubes of the time, Siemens, Telefunken, Klangfilm... for example these ones:

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ryj0b9.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/34zx66s.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/10o04r4.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/25r2nh4.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2afmqah.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/21n2ph3.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2n02g07.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ywxzfc.jpg)

…and then Mr. Kobayashi rummaged through his treasure box…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/33cogvk.jpg)

…showed us and made us listen to some of the very first recordings ever msde, from the year 1900:

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2s9d1nc.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/11vl209.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/200rxqq.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/raxpuc.jpg)

…and those originals were some 1 cm thick at the time !…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/11acokm.jpg)

…and of course Mr. Kabayashi played those rarities with a corresponding turntable of that time:

(http://i62.tinypic.com/b3kh01.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2z9a9mh.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/102jkwk.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2uqhx0h.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2hq6t85.jpg)

…and we finished that fantastic and simply unique evening with a very tasteful meal in a local restaurant…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/11t6hsk.jpg)


…but don’t you think that this is already all the stuff of Mr. Kobayashi, there is much much more in connected rooms… I leave you with some pictures…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2lcwkkz.jpg)

…all vintage horns, drivers, electronics, turntables, channel deviders, tubes… everywhere till the ceiling…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/300cgsn.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/jzcy7b.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2e2p5ox.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/15oidfq.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/imov1d.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/117fi9y.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/28ko7qs.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/16c9tgp.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/311w1gj.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/50nq81.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/166ne6o.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/4j2b1x.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2upd0k1.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/21e0txw.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2hrhchy.jpg)

…some original Western Electric 555 drivers wanted ?

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2cmu3c3.jpg)

..or turntables ?

(http://i62.tinypic.com/mjq1dd.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2wpp312.jpg)

…or some tubes ?

(http://i61.tinypic.com/32zhl53.jpg)

..or some more drivers/speakers ?

(http://i59.tinypic.com/292y1l4.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2hg8rhy.jpg)


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 02, 2015, 07:26:38 PM
…next morning leaving for Kyoto…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/34ih8v6.jpg)

…Mr. Kobayashi was so kind to drive us there and stay with us till the evening…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/24ytro9.jpg)

…on the road…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2rww381.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2z4ep86.jpg)

…entering some autoroad restaurant to choose from the menu wall…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2s9wpvp.jpg)

…you choose according to pictures with prepared meals, pay, get a number, sit down, wait till you are called, and then receive your meal… I really was quite astonished regarding not only the fantastic organization but also the fine quality of all the meals that we got, superbly fresh and tasty…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/16ktkeb.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/f2wyg.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2uji5fl.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/27y8gi1.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/10f6lbr.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/10d83kj.jpg)

..entering Kyoto Mr. Kobayashi accompanied us viewing the city and the former emperor residence with uncountable temples around….

(http://i58.tinypic.com/aadpaa.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2wof66r.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/izuccn.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2zs2lp2.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/14il9as.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2uji5o1.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2lmpbis.jpg)

...in the evening we had a very nice meal with for me – the first time in my life – real Kobe-beef...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2hr21wx.jpg)

...prepared and eaten like the locals do, soaked in boiling vegetable broth till stewed, then stirred in slightly whipped raw egg-white with yellow and then eaten...

...there is no seasoning needed at all, that tasty is the meat, and delicious, simply delicious… I simply do not know why we here in Europe do not manage to create such a tasteful meat… It is available in thin slices (not as a steak) in nearly every grocery, and it looks very specially and homogeniously marbled…

...thanks a ton Mr. Kobayashi, to your wife as well, for your kindness, friendliness, openness, knowledge and generosity in being our guide, sharing your life with us and that what is closest to our hearts: High Fidelity...

...heading for the next HiFi-adventure the weather forecast for the next day was like this: No tsunamis, just natural sound waves…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/20iuo2c.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: kajak12 on June 02, 2015, 10:11:22 PM
Dear Hifi-friends,

just returned from “the” HiFi-trip through Japan from north to south and east to west with André Klein (you know the DIYer from Metz in France with the self-built WE15 system), Dr. Jean-Laurent Veys (the owner of the Lencoheaven-site and great EMT and vinyl-lover), and of course our unique leader and infinitely inspirational source: Jean Hiraga who indeed absolutely perfectly planned, organized and executed our marathon-trip with some twenty extraordinary systems from the last century, including nearly every brand that ever has been written about and that mostly only can be read about but not listened to…

Jean Hiraga opened exactly those doors for us in Japan which presumably for normal HiFi-visitors ever will remain closed. For half a century Jean is a very well known and highly respected man over there, and those HiFi-aficionados, that we visited, gladly had their magazines and books from Jean, dating back till the 1960ies, signed by him with autographs…

Before reporting in detail – I do not know if this is the right place, so you might better put it elsewhere - I have to come back on my own regarding jet-lag… you understand…

For the moment just one picture which I got from Mr. Katou (personally I made more than 2.000), to get you inspired and your mouth watering… there is more to come…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/a1pg01.jpg)

Top: James Wallbridge (you may remember the australian astro-physician who has been already here with us at Cologne, becoming a professor in Japan), André Klein, me, Dr. Jean Veys, mid-range: Jean Hiraga, active musicians and singers of which Mr. Katou has made recordings on CDs), low: two Goto-system owners, Shinichi Tanaka from Goto-society (who planned and executed for Mr. Katou the installation of the whole Goto-system in the back), Toshihisa Katou (owner of the system and professional recording engineer chasing for “the” sound - like me), his wife, and another Goto-system owner)


Anyway: the whole trip was “the” HiFi-lesson in my life…
Where is MR.Miyagi?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 02, 2015, 10:16:35 PM
...leaving Kyoto to Kokura, changing trains in Shin-Osaka, Hakata, for our meeting with Mr. Sugano from Kanno Labs and listening to his Western Electric System WE12A…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/296n5up.jpg)

…facing and riding for the first time with real “Shinkansens"… the speciality regarding these trains is not only their velocity with some 200 m/h but that the leaders of the riding service as well on the platform as within the trains deeply bow when the train enters the station and keep bowed till the train stands still… the same is valid for the departure and when entering and leaving every wagon !!!

... we were indeed deeply impressed as if for the japanese this was the most natural thing in the world… this is some incredible sort of respect and politeness that I completely missed just having returned to Paris or elsewhere in Europe later on...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1z4dcud.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/mczt48.jpg)

...the Shinkansens are very comfortable and spacy... have a look at the space for the knees and feet alone... not nearly as narrow as in the aeroplanes...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2z9i32u.jpg)

... while being on trains Jean kindly introduced exactly those systems to us that were to come and that he just recently had reported about in different editions of his magazine "Stereo Prestige & Image" and of which he some has brought with him as a gift for those who we were to visit...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/11bq04p.jpg)

... we left train in Kokura...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/3448i6g.jpg)

...and were very heartily and friendly welcomed and fetched by Eitsu Kiyohara...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2dglz4o.jpg)

...who - I told already - was a very qualified member of the European Triode Festival (ETF) in Berlin in november last year...

http://www.jacmusic.com/html/diversen/ETF/2014/index-ETF-2014.htm

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2h56z5f.jpg)

...very kindly transporting us with his new Alphard Hybrid car...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2iqlffd.jpg)

...to Kanno Labs...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2m3g0oo.jpg)

...and after some stairways to heaven we entered the historic listening room...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2u4mutk.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/t0s03q.jpg)

...which exists already - if memory serves me well - since the beginning of the 1960ies...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/1g6ts6.jpg)

...equipped with some of the best venerable vintage HiFi-stuff ever produced in history, especially the Western Electric WE 12A...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/v2qmbt.jpg)

(I'm sorry, I still have not yet found out how an originally stored vertical picture stays vertical after being uploaded in tiny.pic and gets not turned around for 90°)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/wjwew9.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/deqvs1.jpg)

...and some very refined and sophisticated (modern styled and tuned) surrounding equipment like this...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/sysh1u.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/feopjk.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/jtrpyf.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/90rdxk.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/690vgm.jpg)

...the whole room full of equipment (one can immediately see that they are chasing very hard for the sound), old and anew...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/24gktwk.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/15nk9km.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/10ge1pt.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2d26ujo.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/e14wlu.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7qvqf.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/oz685.jpg)

...with numerous Ortofon pickups...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ppfy35.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/11husco.jpg)

...Mr. Sugano adjusting everything just right...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/16lb4et.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/11m96jt.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/281lkp.jpg)

...and of course immediately a heavy conversation and discussing started regarding all kinds of HiFi-things in general and particular...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1z2hbi0.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/31699vn.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/azibk0.jpg)

(Mr. Sugano and Mr. Eitsu Kiyohara)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/b6va1f.jpg)

(and Jean Hiraga and Mr. Sugano discussing some former high end system in an older magazine, but already with mouth openings for the bass horns in the ceiling, see below...)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2vagy7s.jpg)

...and showing, discussing, learning, enjoying...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/iwubyo.jpg)

Jean Veys inspecting some professional broadcast CD-player from Philips...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/141866g.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/mwv32p.jpg)

...in between our hosts offered us some coffee and very nice and tasty sweets...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2m4y71w.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2rzwbwl.jpg)

...some 2 track Ampex analogue recording machine covered beneath some cloth for which at the time I would have given my right arm, but could not afford...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2zdxf9k.jpg)

...and some historical pictures of the LAB from the 1960/70ies...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/oanb41.jpg)

...superb stuff treasured all around, open and in cupboards...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/29w911f.jpg)

...Kanno Labs own tweeter "Kanno K597"...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2zgvxab.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/14loh92.jpg)

...with own attenuator from Kanno Labs...

...and some very much admired and discussed toy...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/3027zmu.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2mq6s0o.jpg)

...all to suit the superb Western Electric speakers...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/205vckz.jpg)

...and a little history of Kanno Lab...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/mue555.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/245bm2t.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/311rtyr.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2qjeq2u.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/25jfa1k.jpg)

...the connoisseurs looking for the "right" vinyls...

as I told already, wherever we were in HiFi-Japan, only the very first original pressings were played, and nothing but these, from quite a large stock...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2din8nk.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/wjuebn.jpg)

...for example...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/125qo03.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2465fsl.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/29qi7w2.jpg)

...and please have a look at Jean how happy he is showing me such originals from the 1950ies from Satchmo...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/15gsf8o.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/dziw9.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/33keiow.jpg)

...or this original dating from the 1920/30ies...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/t9v3h5.jpg)

..it is indeed not that easy to bring such an "old fox" in HiFi like Jean Hiraga to such a satisfying smile deep down from the heart like this, but these recordings simply manage to do...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/15qzsd5.jpg)

...thanks a ton Mr. Sugano for your hospitality, your friendship and your generosity having us welcomed and letting us experience such a fantastic listening...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 03, 2015, 08:22:06 PM
Leaving Kanno Labs completely impressed for our next HiFi-adventure…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/210caj7.jpg)

…but what is to come is indeed a chapter on its own, unbelievable, unique, unforgettable…

...now the moment has come to point out that from here on we were totally guests of our Japanese hosts, primarily Jean Hiraga was guest - and we as “followers”, a gesture to be invited at all that he for years refused but now could no longer hold on (Jean told me already way before we started our journey…), not only that we were invited being driven all the time, our hosts payed as well all hotel costs, meals in restaurants, picknicks and drinks in between…

…what an hospitality is this, please ? I am used to the german proverb (jokingly): “Every guest has to be honored, as nasty as he may be…” and we practice it like that (jokingly as well), but this ? This simply blows up every frame…

...we all felt deeply honored and welcomed and cared for, and I feel rather small with my tiny guest presents that I gave to everybody (but perfectly ripped music played via PC or Mac was at least new (!) for the most of them)… but this is simply another dimension….

…we were pampered with everything one only can desire, day and night, with food and drinks, uncomparable and unique hospitality which leaves me speechless even now… I am really deeply and continuously impressed…

…to be invited by our hosts meant not only to be driven to and fro between the next listening sessions on different locations but starting on the road after Kanno Labs with a picnic after some time (keep in mind that wherever all the listening sessions took place they only lasted just some one till two hours, not more)…

...please have a look for yourself… a picnic in a road restaurant… but what a picnic….

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1zq3m9f.jpg)

…the “normal” menu card of the road restaurant looked like this…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/o781uu.jpg)

…but of course our hosts had prepared something else, something special and quite different…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2nr1nqr.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/zn7o14.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2wp3q8i.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2jbwqv5.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/18ewpc.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/29p3dpv.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/v2sdqx.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/ta6a0z.jpg)

...and we all enjoyed it very much...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/15qb72g.jpg)

...driven by car by Mr. Onimaru, accompanied by Mr. Moriyama and Mr Machida, both within (systems later on), and Mr. Eitsu Kiyohara (system later on), who drove the others in his own car...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/fxyyj5.jpg)

...passing seemingly endless rice fields (there is practically no meal, even breakfast, without rice in Japan)...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2mg8bh1.jpg)

...entering the fairy-tale-like area of "The 100 Forest Giants of Japan"...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2reil2v.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2rygcif.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/66bv51.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2mes2mh.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/21b8vfp.jpg)

..entering world famous pottery of Mr. Onimaru, third generation, our kind and friendly "driver"...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2z3vwpl.jpg)

...having already exhibited his products in New York and Paris, being crazy about Porsche, of which he drives one: "I like german cars..."

(http://i62.tinypic.com/fc1t0z.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/izq8ee.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/iz1a3m.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2wobx3q.jpg)

even building pottery cabinets for speakers...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/21dk6h.jpg)

...inviting us for a real japanese "green tea"-ceremony in his private rooms (which is according to Jean something very special)...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/258qo3r.jpg)

.....


Unfortunately I have to make a break here because my camera went out of power… but I will report later on, when I will have gotten some pixes from the other members of the gang… it is the systems of Mr. Moriyama and Mr. Akinaga we visited in the afternoon and in the evening…

...here is what I have at the moment, the WE-system of Mr. Akinaga, Western Electric WE15A + WE597A with amplification from Mr. Machida (system to come)…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ly0bys.jpg)

...very friendly and hospitable and lucky Mr. Akinaga with a superb system...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2n0kay9.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 04, 2015, 08:10:38 PM
...on thursday morning we were leaving Yufuin to Ukihamachi... heading Mr. Eitsu Kiyohara, to visit and listen to his Western Electric system WE 16A (which is in fact four times mono) with amplification of Mr. Machida (system to come) and Mr. Atarashi...

...and this was entering (HiFi)-Nirvana...

...well, I always knew about the word Nirvana per se, but never ever had an imagination of what this ultimately could be... as it turned out it was good that I had this gap, so reality could fill it...

...not enough to have a house, a villa, a large property with big buildings, superbly established garden(s) all around... but a temple on its own, and all in gold, with a son in law, a monk, to care for and practise religion....

...please have a look for yourself... let me start with these...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2lvdd1j.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/d79j9.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/345iz6f.jpg)

...a "personal" gong, not only to welcome the New Year...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/34pncra.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2m307m1.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2cse6mo.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/9umeep.jpg)

...entering the own temple...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/r2mfsw.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/vkuc9.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/ilitr7.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/fzc176.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/29ljtoj.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/se4os2.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/28wdzpe.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2rw0nrc.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/ebehwm.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/25q6m2t.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/ofrp5f.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2vl9xcn.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/qqtsfk.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/et79zk.jpg)

...and in between us, me and Jean Veys...

...leaving the temple, entering the rooms for HiFi...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/v4tovl.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2a9d0e1.jpg)

...with lots and lots and lots of vinyls, CDs, SACDs...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2jfhyec.jpg)

...turning round, and then this...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/333g0e9.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/rrs3lk.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2e17slz.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2gtvjpl.jpg)

...this is, as I said before: Western Electric system WE 16A, double driver stereo, which is in fact four times mono...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2dieees.jpg)

...WE16A - WE555 x 2...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/t8xk6r.jpg)

...woofer WE4181A x 1 + Eltus4181 x 1...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/xmpz7m.jpg)

...Kanno K597 Tweeter x 1 + WE KS12025 + WE555 x 1...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2z8ud4y.jpg)

...WE KS12025 + WE555...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2dm5xyt.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/ac6329.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2r6nmkz.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2qd7gyg.jpg)

...with children...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/20f4ync.jpg)

...accompanied by an armada of self-built amplification and turntable-constructions made by Mr. Machida and Mr. Atarashi, countless pickups from Denon, Ortofon mono, stereo... nothing but the very best...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/14kuyyt.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/314t1f8.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2mcwwth.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1ovmzq.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/4qpoub.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/xpzpmc.jpg)

...and more music on the wall...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/30aqu7q.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/23kesgn.jpg)

...and the amplification chain...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/fcs9ar.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/k15ts2.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/vy8hau.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/sc3nfl.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/149w36d.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/70ar61.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2j29vuw.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2467zf7.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/25fk11u.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2a6v4lt.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2uqyyo6.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/f02oat.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/dgtm2o.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/59sh1i.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/107otgx.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/5k23b9.jpg)

...and of course something like a Telefunken M15A stands shy and hidden around the corner...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/15r0579.jpg)

...with even more vinyls...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/v5k7de.jpg)

...and yes, all HiFi-Fans all around, walking, watching, shooting pictures, discussing... what a joy... what fun... what inspiration...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/20zagza.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/zugwf8.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2wgy9s4.jpg)

...being very hospitable and kindly served with green tea and all sorts of japanese sweets which tasted very fine indeed...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2wf3cy0.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/t5lrid.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2a85kdz.jpg)

...all sorts of music, classical, jazz... being played... but two records stood out, the first a Columbia pressing from 1910 or so with 1 cm thickness in size...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/15885f9.jpg)

...and, as far as I know one of the most expensive records, original pressings in the world, dating from 1926 - in mint condition of course, for some 2.000.000 yen... (I told already...)

"RCA Victor, Red Seal Records, Bach, Suite No. 2 in D Minor, Suite No. 3 in C, Pablo Casals, 'Cellist, Unaccompanied"

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2m5ec05.jpg)

...the whole trio of recordings...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/o7ki7r.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2zg5hj6.jpg)

...Jean and Eitsu discussing the quality of the recording...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2ngu4us.jpg)

...Jean presenting the original vinyl and André the "modern" CD-version of this very recording, which - I was told - "does not sound"...

....and our host and the proud owner of the whole property and the system is Mr. Eitsu Kiyohara adjusting everything just exactly perfect...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2zr0vhs.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2up9x1t.jpg)

...what a lucky man !!! congratulations on your system, and thanks a million, Mr. Kiyohara, for all your hospitality, generosity, natural modesty, inspiration and great kindness to host us like kings...

...and Jean gladly signing a very old HiFi-book of Mr. Kiyohara from the 1960ies in which is a picture of Jean as a young man...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2d6wq2t.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2i9tsmx.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/20k3ukg.jpg)


...well, although unfortunately all days more or less heavily plagued by tinnitus during our whole journey through Japan Dr. Jean Veys stated: "This is the best system in the world!"...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 06, 2015, 06:32:00 AM
…well, after a nice lunch in a local restaurant with a menu like this, which by the way was very tasty…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/fnekac.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2hhkqi1.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/29uop6v.jpg)

…we arrived at Mr. Kazuaki Machida’s home and listened to his system, another superb Western Electric system, but this one on smallest room possible, my respect… Mr. Machida is a very nice and kind and extremely modest and savvy guy bringing things really to the point... I admire this very much...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2uibudl.jpg)

...he has also been at the European Triode Festival (ETF) in Berlin last year (I linked already)…

http://www.jacmusic.com/html/diversen/ETF/2014/index-ETF-2014.htm

(http://i61.tinypic.com/10sf28z.jpg)

...ETF's own T-shirt...

…with estimated 14 - 16 square meters Mr. Machida has exactly the size of room that normaly in german HiFi-magazines is talked about when generally being reported about the Japanese and their HiFi-music-habits when listening....

...but that doesn't matter at all... neither the size of the room nor the "volume" of the system... it is not necessary that he would have to hide somewhere in comparison to other systems visited, just the opposite... it is all best elements, all Western Electric as well, and this construction (or something like that) indeed could be a superb solution for those who do not have that much space...

...Mr. Machida has his system so very well composed and balanced and – to my ears – very finely tuned, that the size of the room simply does not play that much a role except for the deepest frequencies, it is a real joy to listen here, to music, and not to a system… it is relaxing...

...sometimes High-Enders are talking about "synergy" or "synergy-effects" within a HiFi-system, and I know what they mean...  well, to be honest, this system has it for me, and in quite an abundant way...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2mwrytl.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/dyoheq.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2e5s578.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/msn30i.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/21bizqt.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2i9074n.jpg)

...a view of the system from the rear side, the entrance is that small that one hardly gets in, but the real HiFi-fans do everything, that's understood...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/f9l99x.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2cwvitd.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/53qquq.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2qwhfr4.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/o9ffhh.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2yvjnew.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/be5yrq.jpg)

...André and Mr. Machida checking if everything is just alright...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/11c6w04.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/214eg49.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/293zyp5.jpg)

...and these ones just to illustrate to you the "narrowness" of the room... but do not be alarmed, this is the proof that absolute superb HiFi is possible even in the smallest "corners"...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/28lh109.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1zmic6e.jpg)

...the home-made amplification in front of the speakers...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2w4a1at.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2hhf6du.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/10pcyh2.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/5wvvbt.jpg)

...hhhmmmhhh, not to be unfair, contrarily to most or most parts of other systems we have visited we do enter here the infinite creative area of DIY, and Mr. Machida has created most of his system and system-parts himself... and that simply sounds...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2ryshtx.jpg)

...Mr. Machida's pre-amplifier...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ot1dg5.jpg)

...and with CD-player...

...and in addition he has very good ears, and he knows where to go, and he knows what to do, and he knows how to do it... so when comparing this system with any other one has to keep in mind that he has quite a lot of advantages that the others simply do not have or at least not to this extent...

...just simply have a look at what Mr. Machida has created... and be assured, it sounds like it looks, unusual perhaps at first sight, but absolutely first rate... well, of course you have seen his amps and turntables already in other systems here in this journey before... yes, these are all his superb creations...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/w0tm48.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/vpzpy9.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2evpw0z.jpg)

...answering my question why all his creations are made out of those tiny wooden cubes and cuboids and put together in a way that they exactly fit to the wanted or needed form and size, he just shortly looked into my eyes, then jumped as close to the spinning turntable as high into the air as he could, landed on the floor with both his feet with a crash... but nothing happened at all, nothing moved at all, neither the spinning turntable nor the pickup grabbing music...

...o.k. I was immediately convinced... earthquake-proof... a criterion of performance that until now I did not yet had taken into account at all neither having ever even thought of it... but I liked it !!! and it would be nice to have anyway....

have a look what works of precision and practical use this man creates... I am impressed, and they have an appeal to me...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2d8gvx4.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/24oc32p.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/zoes21.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/npjo20.jpg)

...as we all know wood is "warm" and a non-guiding conductor, and one can work quite well with it, but above all it has an advantage which is not to top... we had that often in the past, when we combined several elements of wood we got no difficulties with the ground/earth-hum-loop, just the opposite was mostly the case in comparison to the connections of several metallic components...

...I am not an expert regarding these things, but the hum I could ever hear!... and it was not always that easy to get completely rid of that nasty hum... and with wooden elements these phenomenons simply do not appear... but that does not mean, that the earthing problems within wooden constructions are all correctly solved... this is just a hint that you already know of and not a fact that I do presume here at all...

..from what I got to know - get me right, as it happened most of the discussion was held in japanese, then Jean translated a little into french for André and Jean-Laurant, and when this was done as a matter of fact even less to me in englisch, so, as you might presume, I did not get "everything", so please pardon if I am nowhere "complete" - Mr. Machida is very deeply involved into development... for example he builds up his own transformers... have a look at some single parts...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2l9ir68.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/b4sqyr.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/10qgup4.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2z528o7.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/dh48b6.jpg)

...and of course tubes, tubes, tubes...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2qjiuxx.jpg)

...and at least getting "nervous" with DSD...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/kbvn75.jpg)

...from what I got to hear Mr. Machida is a very ambitious music lover, he "needs" a system like this to make his dreams come true... have a look at his vast collection...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/sbkfq0.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/wssruq.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2evw3zq.jpg)

...when I told Mr. Machida how much I admired his system as a whole and his sound in detail and how much work and labour of love he had invested in (all kindly translated by Jean), he knew that I understood him and his creations, and he took my hand and shook it and kept it for some seconds - in some sort of way like fiances do - and I let it happen… we couldn’t speak a single word together, no german, no french, no englisch, no Japanese… but we understood each other… and yes, it was “more than a feeling...”

...thanks a zillion Mr. Machida...

a man with no computer, with no mobile, with no "modern" connections to this world... but nevertheless  I gave him an USB-stick with my best music on... at the moment he does not yet seem to know what is going on with this, but I have an imagination of how his system might sound, when digital stream is properly installed within his system...

...and not to forget, I owe him the discovery of that what has become "the" recording of the whole trip for me, very unsusual, very avantgarde, right, but an orchestra with 29 musicians doing exactly that what we want to listen to and test with, all that "nasty" little things that we like to tickle our ears with... a must have...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2qt8img.jpg)

"Yann Robin - Vulcano; Art of Metal, Billard, Ensemble intercontemporain, Malkki (2012) Kairos 0013262KAI"

(http://i57.tinypic.com/212wa5l.jpg)

...and the last time that I saw someone sitting in the sweet spot being struck in awe, here Dr. Jean Veys, when listening...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2jai3b8.jpg)

...was Shinichi Tanaka from Goto Society when listening to Klaus's system... (Mr. Shinichi Tanaka's system is to come later on...)

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,900.0.html

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: PingPing on June 06, 2015, 08:05:21 AM
Fantastic  :) :) :)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 07, 2015, 04:35:28 AM
Next day, on Saturday, we went from Hakata to Toyama with changing Shinkansens in Osaka...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/s3zqrp.jpg)

...waiting on our train... start was very early on, because we had a 6 hours 30 ride by train, and then 1 hour ride by car... to Mr. Toshihisa Katou’s full-Goto system, meeting there Shinichi Tanaka from Goto Society, James Wallbridge and quite a lot of HiFi-aficionados…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/efts5.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/1z1tg05.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ejvnm9.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2luduyw.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/14xdzma.jpg)

...while changing trains in Osaka we became witnesses of the "kissing" of two Shinkansens on another platform, which within minutes were on tour again, everyone in its own direction…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/10f81g8.jpg)

…by the way it is very admirable watching the planning and organisation of how precisely all the Shinkansens come to a stop within the stations, within exact borders set in advance, so that every passenger definitely knows where to wait and queue up... there are defined markings on the platform... and it works very well...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/29usyn5.jpg)

...but not only for the ones who can see, also for the blind within the trains already markings on the handrails can be touched, and outside the trains there are yellow guidelines for sticks (initially I was wondering what's the use of all these) which can be used by the blind on the floor...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/11ioi9v.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/ab41lt.jpg)

...and for those who esteem streamlinings and aerodynamics and are able to see... the actual fashion for the ladies is something like this...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/10zpqap.jpg)

...hot pants without stockings, just high heeled sandals, some blouse with jacket and mouth- and nose-protection... this is to be found everywhere...

...on our way to Toyama we had one break, we had to change Shinkansens and we had a very nice meal, prepared by some very nice and friendly girls, fried curry chicken with rice, within the station in a quality I would not have believed, simple, yes, but very tasty (a choice by Jean of course)...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2u7ynac.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/r0ccw0.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/26398uw.jpg)

...and within the station of Osaka...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/292pp28.jpg)

..for example new cars are presented with new forms and sizes that are reserved only for the japanese market...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ef7t4p.jpg)

..the Shinkansens are very comfortable and quiet, but that quick on the rails that it is hardly possible to shoot some valuable pictures from the outside, and as we passed one of the world's heritages quick like a flash of lightning, so, that it was impossible to take a picture, Jean at least showed it to us on his japanese mobile...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/qybjhv.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2coo28m.jpg)

...as the area was mostly flat, we passed seemingly endless rice fields and rice fields and rice fields...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/30kvf5h.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/255263t.jpg)

..but finally we were not in for a sightseeing, were we ?...

...arriving at Toyama at last...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/atvymt.jpg)

...kindly and personally getting fetched by Mr. Katou, and after another hour's ride in his car we arrived at his home, the place where I - regarding our purposes - mostly wanted to be of all in Japan...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2hn6nnt.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/msbtvs.jpg)

(a Goto-fan, Mr. Katou in the middle, Jean Hiraga to the right)

...to introduce Mr. Katou to you: he is a professional... a professional recording engineer... he produces CDs and SACDs... although very well equipped with all kinds of different turntables and pickups - like everybody else we visited on our trip through Japan...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/ezh9i0.jpg)

...for quite some time Mr. Katou - you may remember like some pages before Mr. Yoshihara - has already completely given up playing vinyls... you may ask why?... well, not to tap on anyone's toes, but experiencing such a listening result with his system (as was with Mr. Yoshihara's) you will immediately understand why... perhaps I might add that Mr. Katou for more than a year now is using a 60 chip DDDAC1543 from Doede Douma kindly introduced to him by Jean Hiraga...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/k3orqa.jpg)

...Accuphase CD/SACD player, Goto pre-amp and DDDAC1543 with 60 chips below with the blue light on...

http://www.dddac.com/

...of which and about whose development I talked already quite a lot... you may remember: Jean Hiraga and me are using the DDDAC1543 with 120 chips)...

...to make it short: Mr. Katou is chasing for "the" sound, like me... and as he told me, there is no alternative for him but playing digital stream, as well with other very sophisticated DACs, but ultimately not with that degree of satisfaction... (well, not only my presumption but my conviction is that it is the power supply, though good, but not delivering that what it should - you may read Chanh lately for specifically that matter with his extraordinary results...)

...during our meeting Mr. Katou and some of the attending solo singers and pianists kindly honered me with some of their CDs, produced by Mr. Katou, for example these...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2crrpyx.jpg)

Atsuko Yamaguchi - Bewitched

(http://i61.tinypic.com/10gd3s0.jpg)

Teruo Goto & Jun Satsuma - But Beautiful

(http://i59.tinypic.com/oa5big.jpg)

...sorry, not yet listened to, and all in japanese only...

...and of course Mr. Katou played for us some of his own newly made DSD-recordings... which were very much admired... "...the cello..." (I will try to get this from Mr. Katou...)

...as a professional recording engineer Mr. Katou has quite a lot of professional equipment, like microphones...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2s8i6hv.jpg)

...see the armada of cases on the wall, filled with all kinds of recording stuff and professional recording microphones from Sony and others, of which Jean shows us some of Mr. Katou's favorites...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2drz1gw.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2eg771l.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2z59ezt.jpg)







Mr. Katou’s system…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/fm5n4j.jpg)

...well, this indeed has been long time planned... from what I got to know from Mr. Shinichi Tanaka this was an ongoing process which took more than one and a half year to be fully executed, and just for some months the system is that completely installed that it is "playable"...

…to fit his new complete Goto-system into the new listening room Mr. Katou had to convert most parts of his house... out of six rooms, three in the basement and three in the first floor, he had to make just one reaching up to the roof, leaving only the originally elementary beams to save the static equilibrium… this to the great advantage of the large waves to be able to expand just the right way…

...to give you an impression of the size...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1ypyzp.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/21143sk.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1622yrn.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2rc9a47.jpg)

...bass horn from the side...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2saj681.jpg)

...bass horn from the front...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2vjr38i.jpg)

...mid-low and bass horn from the side...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2928v8y.jpg)

...mid-low horn from the front...

,,,for the visitors of Mr. Katou's system Mr. Shinichi Tanaka had prepared a presentation which was thrown on the wall and of which he gladly gave me a CD...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/eaprg3.jpg)

...let me extract the content and show it here to you...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2uh1w7c.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2dkx3qu.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/30urbes.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/280tsu8.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2yunmer.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/nzkrw1.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/14nib5t.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/33fcdbc.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/n37ksl.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2vj7nh3.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/vo356r.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/vqmj3p.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/21cgvt3.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/w18zn7.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/5vn339.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/177f5v.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/bg6340.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/30109vt.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/dgnn9t.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/24l6emf.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/swpwdl.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2zjmmau.jpg)


(http://i58.tinypic.com/241to1z.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/dop9oz.jpg)

…does anybody recognize any difference regarding the arrangement of the bass chassis between Klaus's and Mr. Katou's?

(http://i61.tinypic.com/287kdig.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/5ourux.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2mr9zz4.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2mra0sm.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/119b0g9.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2yl5gy9.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2wbtdol.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/29mab80.jpg)



...so, the actual system of Mr. Katou consists of the following elements (per side)…

...well, for better understanding of the whole system let me add, that for the realisation of this system Mr. Shinichi Tanaka has tried to adopt the construction principles regarding bass from Klaus’s system to which he had been listening here with us some 2 ½ years ago and because of the spectacular results was asking if this construction principle was already “patented”, i.e. doubling the lowest bass, and putting the SG146LD4 driver instead of the deepest bass into the mid-low bass (a criterion on which - to my opinion - should be discussed and of course listened again), and enriched with this "knowledge" he developed his “own” bass constructions/systems, here quadroupled for the lowest bass and doubled for the low-mid bass…

…so… deepest bass, running till 80 cycles: 4 Goto SGWNSSPH (the newest bass chassis from Goto, their highest actual level regarding membrane basses, not yet on the official market)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2repl53.jpg)

Mid-high bass, 80 - 350 cycles: 2 Goto SG146LD4 (top of the line regarding bass compression driver)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2nqglmg.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/dhbfk4.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2e5nt7c.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/35i2giu.jpg)

Mid-range, 350 - 1.500 cycles: 2 Goto SG5880BL (i.e. beryllium-version, highest end)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2m2uply.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/rlbc3k.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/289bekj.jpg)

(low)

Tweeter, 1.500 – 6.000 cycles: 1 Goto SG3880BL(i.e. beryllium-version, highest end)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/289bekj.jpg)

(middle)

Supertweeter, 6000 cycles - infinite: 1 Goto SG188BL (i.e. beryllium-version, highest end)

(top)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/309k6qt.jpg)

...and this is the amplification chain, all Goto, all solid state, with channel devider on top...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/5chbut.jpg)

...and for time alignment Mr. Katou has some Accuphase in use...

..during the listening session there was of course always much ado...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/b5k0tj.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2elyx7a.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2nkt5p2.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/aesfo9.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/15rzfjc.jpg)

...with Shinichi Tanaka and Jean Hiraga explaining what is all about the system and reflections and standing waves and resonances...

...which led to - urged by Jean according to Mr. Ishii's research results - some covering of the floor with carpets...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2vi2ero.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/35bv4n4.jpg)

...and this to some more "satisfying" listening results...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/zof7ug.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1z50kdt.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2efqfqq.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2s8sl4x.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/mbpb0y.jpg)

...obviously...


…for those who might not be that familiar with the development of bass horns started by Mr. Seiya Goto already in 1970 and “continued” by Klaus from 1976 onwards (in the very beginning he started actually in a room of a size of 15 square meters with massive folded horns... construction was as with Klangfilm Europe, just a little smaller (one was seated hardly one meter away), but two of them…) here is some more information and pictures…

…regarding Klaus’s bass you may allow me to link you to my report regarding his ongoing researching results for more than 30 years now constructing, building and of course as well intensively listening to all kinds of bass horns with all – according to physical laws – precisely calculated length up to 6,30 meters and mouth opening to 2,70 meters, exponential, tractrix, hyperbolic… angled, curved, straight…

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html

… and as it came out there was indeed no escape at all for Klaus when chasing for “the” sound: but to build “all” these horns and listen to all of them by himself, one after another or even better – related to the size in the room - side by side…

…and this was the only way for him to find out that the “pure”, the “ideal”, the “perfect” horn according to physics, i.e. a 20 cycle horn with 6,30 meter length and a mouth opening of 2,70 meter, admittedly does sound good, but on the long run was not pleasing to our ears as expected… neither with different approaches of time-alignment, naturally and electronically…

…Klaus came to other results with his bass horns, and regarding specifically this topic hardly anybody can – as a german proverb says: “make him an X for a U”…

…so now, as to be seen on Mr. Tanaka’s Power-Point-projection for the deepest bass in Mr. Katou's system he chose the construction of the former Takajo horn which dates back to 1970 and which I got aware for the first time in 1978 in a german living-magazine…

...according to what they say it is some 230 cm long, situated on top of the corner of the ceiling, and it goes down to 28 Hz, using the angles of the room corners as natural prolonging for the mouth openings for both of the horns…a clever idea if space is really limited and one does not wish to do without a bass like this… later on appeared exactly this construction coming out of the rear walls...

...anyway, the original from 1970 was this one here…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/i3uewy.jpg)

...and here is a copy of a drawing of some papers of this very system, of Mr. Takajo’s system, with ballons from 1970, which I kindly got from Mr. Shinichi Tanaka…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2qkl74n.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2vtxoo5.jpg)

...and the top view... already in 1970 with two Goto SG38WNS basses on each side, sitting on concrete horns !!! ...

…to better understand: Mr. Takajo was a famous pianist in Japan with some 100 and more vinyls and CDs out at the time when living… he had a small listening room, but with a Steinway Grand Piano in it reaching from one wall exactly to the other…

...above several stereo microphones were installed, so Mr. Takajo played on his piano, recorded himself, and afterwards he played his recordings back through his Goto-system just above his head and on the wall…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/14cv1g9.jpg)

…and Mr. Seiya Goto was very often there, and they both experienced the listening results, and Mr. Goto ameliorated his speakers and drivers according to these results and Mr. Takajo’s wishes…

...what I happened to read at that time in 1978 in that german magazine (not in any HiFi-magazine, they were by far not that far at that time...) from the reporter was: “The differences between original and recording are neglectable…” …this was – if I count right – in 1978, so some 37 years ago… and I was down on the floor, deep down on the floor, only very very very slowly recovering because of this result in comparison to my own ones...

…so, from what is to be seen on Shinichi Tanaka’s Power-Point-presentation is the adaptation of exactly this type of horn for the deepest bass in Mr. Katou's system running up till 80 Hz, but with different input, not only two but four meanwhile newly developed highest end Goto membrane basses SG38WNSSPH...

...and in doing so, he tried to adopt the constructions principle that Klaus found out best for his system, the V-position of the chassis…

…such a big construction could hardly be realised without models, and so did Shinichi…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2e6emi9.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/jfx650.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1zxtsux.jpg)

...and the execution in the origin done by Klaus with two bass chassis...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2ds1f2a.jpg)

...and adapated by Shinichi Tanaka for four bass chassis...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/x5qxj5.jpg)

...and so the bass horn was built...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/vcxmgw.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/mcugsj.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2h5qlck.jpg)

..when watching the two pictures with two and four bass chassis I leave you with the theory of interferences regarding the results in sound reaching performances from doubling the impulses of frequencies till their complete exclusion... especially when the theme is: "What is the problem with the current system?"..." ..."not satisfied with bass..." ..."Where is the solution against slow sound?"...

...building "a space shuttle" (not only) in bass doing everything "just right" in imagination is rather easy, but practically ? ...well...

…as Mr. Katou’s system obviously had to be a five-way system like Klaus’s that he had listened to Mr. Shinichi Tanaka had to think about a construction regarding mid-low-bass-horn with SG-146LD4, like Klaus had with a single SG-146LD…

…and regarding the frequency band width he decided to adopt a hyperbolic horn, a 60 Hz horn… in length close to the one of the deep bass horn, considering synchronization of phase…

…in theory the thoughts were oriented on this…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/33bznmb.jpg)

,,,and so the practical result looked like that…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2yz094l.jpg)

...with these drivers, the SG-146LD4s, with 50 kg in weight each...

...by the way, regarding the whole description and discussion of all the systems here, just to give you an impression, of "where" this is, just in comparison to the world famous WE555 driver, you may have a look here... this one is just the SG-146LD with some modest 40 kgs...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/22x379.jpg)

...and in the end Mr. Katou gave me two prospects for regular listening of music...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/34niecy.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2rm3zon.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: ozmillsy on June 08, 2015, 07:50:49 AM
I have to admire the dedication of Mr Katou !!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 08, 2015, 08:54:05 PM
I was just hinted having been unauthorized in properly and/or precisely quoting/crediting the original owners of text and pictures of the discussion regarding the DDDAC1794 on the DIY-er site in the past... (quotes:) “Just because it's on the internet does not give you the right to use my picture/text…” and play “copy cat"… (end of quotes)

…to correct this, I apologize for my stupidity… Thanks to the member of the DIYer site and “owner” of those pixes and textes who pointed it out to me: stijn001

I have deleted all corresponding contributions that I could find. If there still should be any more, please tell me, and I will gladly delete them as well…

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 09, 2015, 02:54:44 AM
...here are some links regarding the work of Mr. Ishii, of which I thought you might be interested in, you remember, the former Technics and acoustic engineer...

http://www.ishii-audio-lab.com/room_ishimura1.html

...not only in audio, but as well regarding home cinemas...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2lwr40p.jpg)

...it is all only in japanese, but there is some translation-machine, and you may scroll up and down and look for ishii-lab and related anyway...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/9tfpm0.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/6yguo3.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/vr7zo8.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/6rlunp.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/1zcz9c4.jpg)

...or you may want to have a look here...

http://www.ishii-audio-lab.com/concept2.html


(http://i57.tinypic.com/e88m1d.jpg)





Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 09, 2015, 11:18:09 PM
…the next day, Sunday, was the hardest day of all… of course we were all rather tired anyway, being some 12-16 hours on the road every day, by railway, by car, by metro, by foot, whatever…

...but this was still to top with an 18 hours ride from Toyama to Morioka and still quite a lot further to the north, and back to Tokyo at 23:06, to visit and listen to one of the greatest collection and arrangement of vintage systems and vinyls I ever encountered…

…and so we started early in the morning already at 6:19 by train with the Shinkansen “Kagayaki 500”, leaving Toyama to Omiya, changing Shinkansen “Hayabusa 5” to Morioka, and then rode still one hour further by car…

…to somewhere in the mountains, a wintersport area, some 1.000 m high, to some very kind and friendly and hospitable and exclusive HiFi-aficionado…

…I was informed having been among those rare selected visitors who ever had the chance to access this multi-room-large-system-collection and –arrangement at all… and in addition Jean Hiraga told me that he had already tried three times to visit these systems but so far without success…

…although we were allowed by our host to take pictures for our personal use, we had to swear during lunch to keep related photos of the systems and arrangements only for ourselves… neither were we allowed to send related photos even to one of our most intimate audio friends, even in low size - poor definition format – through the internet, magazines, facefook etc.

...how serious this attitude is practiced till this very day by our host becomes clear latest when learning that even Mr. Ishii, the acoustic architect designer - whom I introduced to you already at Mr. Odagi, our first visit - who cared for the whole acoustic treatment in all rooms, neither has obtained the right to publish any photos of these systems as well…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/34jdjb6.jpg)

...the two books of Mr. Ishii...

…Mr. Ishii tried to publish some of these system photos in his second book on acoustic as one of his best designs, but the owner refused. And so all the four of us had to swear not to publish anywhere, not to spread any photos of this very day even to close friends in the Internet, and to strictly keep related photos for ourselves. I was even informed that behind our host there is in his family one of the strongest group of lawyers in Japan...

...so you understand, I have to respect the decision and privacy of our host. He said about publications "ZETTAI DAME", meaning in Japanese: "the publication of any photos taken by us that day is absolutely prohibited". I was told that this happens from time to time as well with owners of other superb systems …

…of course I will not name anyone nor publish any pictures, but there is freedom of speech, and I will try my very best to bring you there just like in a dream and post pictures only of stuff that is official, that cannot be forbidden…

…after arriving at Morioka station…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2n06mo5.jpg)

…we were fetched by a kind and friendly guy already waiting for us, he drove us for an hour or so to our destination somewhere to a quiet place up above in the mountains…

…passing some still active volcano..

(http://i57.tinypic.com/344p4p0.jpg)

..it was somewhere here…
 
(http://i57.tinypic.com/345mwix.jpg)

...and after arriving we were very friendly and heartily welcomed by the family with father and son, both are more than passionate music- and HiFi-aficionados…

…Mr. Ishii was already waiting for us, and Jean gladly explained to him and showed to him our yesterday’s adventures…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/flzl0y.jpg)

…and the impression grew on me that Mr. Ishii was quite impressed to see all these spectacular things…

…lunch was already prepared for us – and oh, what a joy – fine linen table cloth, crystal wine glasses, knives and forks and spoons for us, but as well Japanese chopsticks, a bottle of red Bordeaux-wine from Domaines Cordier, A.O.C. Margaux, was already opened…

...I didn’t trust my eyes and tongue: absolutely fresh and gorgeous croissants like from Lenôtre in Paris, slightly salted raw milk butter, baguettes which I rarely get better in France… Kobe beef with vegetables and broth, like the Japanese practise it, it was indeed everything that fine and tasted so well, that André meant: “It is like at home…”

…and I was told that the really superb 5 way system with one of the biggest flat TV-screen in the immediately appending room was just for watching television and DVDs and Blurays, and not for music… alone with this system and video most of us would presumably be very happy, but – as I said – this is just to watch tele… the things to listen to music are just to come…

...so, as we are all “blind” now, let me guide you through the labyrinth… that what this HiFi-aficionado has as listening-room(s) the most of us do not have as home or villa… it is simply incredible, and I have to admit that I got some sort of envy regarding  t h a t  much space for the HiFi-waves being able to correctly spread out…

..imagine the man having his listening room(s) in an appendix of his “normal” house, i.e. living room, television room, kitchen (completely professional equipped, with a cook of course) and so on…

...so nobody is getting disturbed when music like life on stage is being played, and trust me, it is like life on stage… well, if one is not used to these levels of loudness – but we as visitors are all horn aficionados – one might get really surprised, the room is there to be filled fully and very pleasantly with music – as good as the sources and amplifications and speakers allow…

…to get you to know “where” we are: all “toys” are "bought", the vintage ones as well as the new ones… and name me a highest-end brand that is not represented here, that would be rather difficult…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/1e6lpt.jpg)

Mark Levinson LNP-2L pre-amp... formerly I had one as well, one of the very first three to ever come to Germany, and it was indeed good at the time...

...nearly uncountable and all kinds of McIntosh, for example the MC3500, but there were many others...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/28s4mcl.jpg)

credit to: http://oestex.com/tubes/Mac/MC-3500.html

...EMT 927Ast with pickup EMT25

(http://i59.tinypic.com/207x6o4.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2h4e1cw.jpg)

credit to: http://www.westernlabo.com/88_3848.html

 and quite a lot of other turntables with other pickups..., Accuphse, PWR Master…, but as well new ones like Esoteric...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/dcfmol.jpg)

...credit to: http://www.audioaficionado.org/esoteric/16300-esoteric-k-01-sacd-player.html

...Fairchild 245, C7 Line Amplifier and C7 Equalizer Amplifier... without ending, nothing but the very best…

...all those - maybe some fifty units or even more, amps, CD/SACD/DSD-players, channel deviders, frequency adjustments in all rooms - are carefully led together to several self-built (the only self-built from what I got aware) connecting-consoles (there where needed) with possibilities for loudness, treble, high and bass adjustment... but it is clear, the focus is definitely and without a doubt on JBL, vintage and anew...

...even digital streaming via mobil MAC-book and mobile and whatever in all sorts of resolution is commonly in use - at least by the son of the house, a very nice and friendly young man, asking him for his profession, he told me: "I am nothing but an engineer..." … but as far as I could see there is no (real) DIY, i.e. no developments on its own, just the usual soldering and so on …

…let me begin with the listening room(s)… you may have noticed that I am always talking about the listening room(s) and not "the" listening room… well, when you enter this “sanctuary” you are immediately struck in awe…

…imagine entering an 8 m x 10 m room with some 4 and more meters in hight, rather right in the middle of the 8 meters… then you are right in the big center of all this HiFi-nirvana with a group of very nice and generous black leathered chairs with brown arms and a low brown, some sort of oval table to be invited to sit down for listening…

…but this very room is not “closed” by walls, it is open one half up to the first floor and further on into the roof, and one half each beginning immediately to the left and to the right… so if you look to the left and to the right, the total length horizontically is something like 20 meters (!)… and above across the whole line two huge chandeliers are hanging from the roof...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/1zxnlg8.jpg)

...you may take Mr. Odagi's execution done by Mr. Ishii as an inspiration for the arrangements of the floor and walls there for here, only that the multi-layered wooden "stripes" here are white, and the blue absorbing "stripes" very light brown, interspersed with those some 20 cm thick old dark-brown wooden beams... beams, that are to be found as well on the ceiling, well, on those parts of the rooms, where there was a ceiling... these beams on the ceiling were interspersed with some more "white acoustic beams" reaching nearly completely from the left to the right angle of the ceiling...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/14udgsz.jpg)

..the floor - to my impression - is the same as with Mr. Odagi...

...needless to say that the new professional JBL monitor speakers from Mr. Odagi are here represented as well, in the listening room to the right... only that they here look as some sort of a side-product, glad to belong to the whole bunch and be presented at all...

…to the left and to the right two other listening rooms join in immediately of which the walls are reduced backwards to the half as well… so everything within the whole listening-unit is “open” and extensively, and the whole floor, wall and ceiling treatment all around is created by Mr. Ishii, you may theoretically compare to the room of Mr, Odagi, our first visit… so you may have an imagination how it looks like…

...before I enter into the description of the single rooms and their equipment, let us go upstairs… in the listening room to the right in the middle of the rear wall is a door leading to some back space for HiFi-equipment, general power supply, soldering corner and such, and in addition a stairway leading to the first floor where there is one of the most extensive collections of vinyls on the walls i ever came across...

...all walls are full of vinyls, painstaikinly lined up, all first rate, all first editions, first pressings (what else?)... for example "Blue Note", the company exists since 1939 if memory serves me well... well, here you find the complete collection in the very first edition, what ever they have published till now, all first pressings, without any gaps...

...and this is only one brand... they have others as well... and it is understood of course that every single vinyl has some sort of kling-film protection as a caution when being heavily in use...

...needless to ask: Do you have...? ... they have, of course... thousands and thousands and thousands of records... I was told that our host was the owner of 9 (in words: "nine") original pressings in mint condition of a recording of Satchmo from 1959 (a recording of which our other hosts are very proud owners as well - I showed you already), a very very much sought after recording - globally - and especially in mint condition...

...well this information made it into the internet, and within the next days several addicted interested appeared in front of the house, even from America, to ask for a record... and this the owner - I presume - does not want to experience again...

...by the way from upstairs in the middle where there is a vast collection of vintage amps and speakers and turntables and arms and pickups from nearly every brand of nearly every decade back to the 1930ies, you have a wonderful view, up to the roof and downstairs just to the entry and half of the central listening room...

...all the rooms and walls and ceilings and the roof as well are regularly and regarding the needs of acoustics interspersed with wonderful antique dark brown-black wood beams... impressive, really very impressive, and very finely and tastefully executed all around by Mr. Ishii (I told already), without a doubt... I could live here...

…so back downstairs having just entered when you turn your eyes to the left side back there is a very passionately established and comfortable large bar with several stools, with everything needed for that purpose, fridge, glasses and so on, and of course a vast collection of finestly selected spirits, some estimated 100 different sorts of vintage whisky (more than I am aware of), some are ten, twenty and even more years old, and other alkoholics… it becomes immediately clear that the owner is as well a very passionate and knowledgable whisky-aficionado…

..not to forget that all comfortable "sitting areas" with their arm-chairs and low tables are additionally underlayed with very precious and suitable big old carpets to further reduce reflections and resonances and standing waves...


…so, to start with the main room, this is equipped with JBL / Ampex horn loaded cabinet w/ dual 15's from the early 1950's, also called T500, at least in the Westrex lineup, about 6' wide and 6' tall, so arranged, that they fill the whole rear wall of the center listening room…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/10i7501.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/rjfnrq.jpg)

credit for the drawing to Steve Schell http://www.audioheritage.org

...a little later there was as well out a "Jim Lansing Theatre Sound System" of 1954, "also manufactured as Westrex T550 and Ampex 6000C"... so, to give you an impression of what a system that was you might have a look here...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/21cb3f7.jpg)

credit to http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/jbl-pro/beginnings.htm

...the only difference to the system that we listened to is just two vertical bass chassis and just one tweeter per side...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2cnboqx.jpg)

...just scrolling through my library I found this in an older JBL-book to better illustrate to you...

...but, don't worry, this system illustrated to the left produces effortless a loudness that most modern systems by far cannot reach... it easily fills a room of 100 square meters...

...and the tweeter in use, sitting on top of each unit, is the theatre system driver "No. 375 High Frequency driver with No. 537-500 Koustical Lens - Exponential Horn Assembly"...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/s5zmg9.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/123b7zd.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/33ory2v.jpg)

credit to: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/350717889706832470/

...for a closer and more precise look you might go here a little down and enlarge...

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/history/jbl-pro/beginnings.htm

...on the main system is a JBL SG520 as preamplifier in use...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/xprc08.jpg)

http://test.audioheritage.org/Web_Pages/02_History/02_History_and_Legacy_of_JBL/03_Thomas_Era/TE_Frame.html

... two McIntosh MI 200 care for the power supply of the Ampex/Lansing 537-500&375 "Use High"...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/554aw8.jpg)

credit to: http://www.sound-pit.jp/vintage/amp/mcintosh-mi200/product.html

...as do two Viola Bravo for the Ampex/Lansing Theatre Box 150-4 "Use Low"...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/aooyaf.jpg)

credit to: http://www.hifido.co.jp/KW/G0104/J/0-30/C11-61468-21750-00/

...in combination with JBL/Ampex N500 deviding network, "Use Low" and "Use High"...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/4uxdur.jpg)

credit to: http://www.soriaudio.com/index.php?document_srl=12930087&mid=audio

...for more pixes you may go here...

http://www.westernlabo.com/2_4713.html

...the whole system is powered with two lines of 6 KVA each...


as oprerating system for the main system (in use for: Jazz main) there is

1.   Linn LP12 with SME3009inp and Shure V15 III going into JBL SG520 …

2.   Linn Klimax DS

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2w37485.jpg)

Credit to: http://www.stereo.de/downloads/

going into Line Amp QUAD eight…

3.   Esoteric G0-Rb Rubidium

(http://i60.tinypic.com/qrxkc3.jpg)

Credit to: http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/g0rb/

for a manual you may go here:

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/532682/Teac-Esoteric-G-0rb.html

4.   as well as Verdi Encore SACD&CD…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/o8e437.jpg)

Credit to: http://audiofast.pl/main.asp?idm=1&ids=240&idsu=633&wersja=1

5.   going into dCS Elgar D/A Converter for DSD

(http://i60.tinypic.com/28t7y84.jpg)

Credit to: http://audiofast.pl/main.asp?idm=1


going into Line Amp QUAD eight…







Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 12, 2015, 09:09:28 PM
...sorry, but because of size length I had to cut...

...in the listening room to the right (for classical music) there are the afore mentioned JBL studio monitor speakers that Mr. Odagi owns as well, and some more traditional Westrex Altec 211 (A4) 2080/2090 X 2 horns (in the back of the picture) from 1975, with Kanno Lab 597 as additional tweeter...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/awxowm.jpg)

credit to: http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1975-pro/page_5.jpg

...as operation system for the Westrex/Altec 211 (A4) system is running:

1. in the midrange: McIntosh MI-200

2. in the bass: McIntosh MC3500

with self made and/or Westrex B1722 A channel devider at 600 Hz...

...this all is fed by:

1. Nottingham Hyperspace turntable...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2hqsej9.jpg)

credit to: http://www.head-fi.org/t/371631/fs-nottingham-hyperspace-with-ace-space-arm

...with two tone-arms: Ortofon 3012R, SPU with Western 616B and Ikeda DST62 with Neumann BV33 and

2. EMT 927 with Klangfilm Klv-009 with T41 input trs

into McIntosh C22 Phono Equalizer,,,

(http://i57.tinypic.com/sdfxvp.jpg)

credit to: http://digilander.libero.it/pasqua49/COLLEZIONE%20HI-FI/MC%20INTOSH%20C22/McIntosh%20C22.htm

into line amp...

,,,into

...Accuphase DG38...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2qncf38.jpg)

credit to: http://www.topas-highfidelity.de/ebay/accuphase_dg-38_1.JPG



...and last not least in the listening room to the left in the center in all its glory stands a vintage JBL Paragon from 1957…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2v1b0ad.jpg)

...for more about Paragon, you might go here…

http://audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm

...and to the left and to the right in the corner there are placed JBL Hartsfields…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/1zmdrtj.jpg)

credit to http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm



...we did not listen to every speaker/system installed, but to the three very best...

...time was way to short, but what fun, what a joy, what a priviledge, what an experience?

...thanks a million...


...some of the music being played...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/npl4sl.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ezlgqp.jpg)

Rosemary Clooney with Harry James - Hollywood's Best (1955)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/fuujkh.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/orqqfp.jpg)

J. R. Monterose - The Message [1959]

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2d1ag5g.jpg)

...the original of course, no reprint, no remaster, nothing but the originals...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/34hw1us.jpg)

Miles Davis - Live Around The World [1996]

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2lswb5t.jpg)

Kenny Drew - Kenny Drew Trio [1956]

(http://i61.tinypic.com/iydf83.jpg)

Duke Ellington - Duke Ellington Indigos [1958]

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2lveb9u.jpg)

...and of course Ella & Louis could not have been missed...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/28mjnt4.jpg)

..like Oscar Petersen with his "We get requests"... well, this is one of the first recordings I ever bought in my life, and it is worn out since.... and I opted for the next vinyl edition, and the CD, and the remastered, and the K2HD-version, and the HDtracks-version, and lately the SACD done by Steve Hofmann...

...and the favorite track (not only mine but - completely independent as it much later turned out - Jean's as well) to test everything out till this very day remains "You look good to me"... with its triangle (here you always have a superb possibility what your system can do for you regarding resolution) and the stroking of the acoustic bass strings... well, we all have bass, and we all know how it sounds, but the criterion to concentrate on - to my ears - is slimness... the bass is not 1 meter broad or even more, if you get it precisely and all coherently it is just some 15 cm...)

...and yes, last not least, this is the new turntable of the 21st century...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/dyxixj.jpg)

...and Jean gladly inspected and tried it out with exactly this version of Oscarello, his favorite track on this record...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/29zc67m.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 12, 2015, 11:57:40 PM
…well, the next day was some sort of "holiday"… it was all "work" of course, but no far riding, not that early up, not that late back home... but although we came back to Tokyo late in the evening before, we still had to drive by Metro to Asakusa and there by foot to our hotels…

…but this morning we had a date in Kamakura… so you might think, Kamakura, that is not that far from Tokyo, o.k., this is just around the corner… well, but even if you know the name where to go, there first is the map guide where to go, please have a look for yourself…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/52ktbk.jpg)

…of course, one hardly does understand a single word, so thanks again to our “leading duck”, Jean, under his well orientated guidance we rather quickly reached our aim precisely and just in time... otherwise we would have been completely lost... once again...

...so it was "only" 1 ½ hour ride through Tokyo city with the Metro and then still about half an hour ride by bus… but imagine, the same way back + lunch + listening session... and the day is done...

...but please, don't you think after having reached our aim being in some sort of smaller suburb or so, no, no, all busy, all still city, big city...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2eplmvl.jpg)

...arriving at the station of our destination...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/mwr691.jpg)

...I didn't trust my eyes, an absolutely gorgeous offer of all kinds of things to take-away: fish, meat, drinks, sandwiches, patisserie, chocolaterie - like in the best parts of Paris - incredible, simply incredible...

...and all absolutely fresh and painstakingly hygienic and open and free for everybody to see in the making...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/25zrmll.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/1zgaom1.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/syqfld.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/e97n6o.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2vjeys5.jpg)

...even with finest chocolaterie from french/belgium Godiva... who would have thought that ?

(http://i58.tinypic.com/euolg1.jpg)

...and getting outside we became immediately aware not only of a railway running high…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2iizsd2.jpg)

...but as well of one of Tokyo’s big religious monuments

(http://i62.tinypic.com/23hn2bt.jpg)

...entering the bus and driving with utmost joy...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2l8870w.jpg)

...we were already awaited and heartily welcomed by Mr. Koichiro Akimoto and Mr. Saburo Degawa, you remember, the retired audio-engineer with more than a dozen patents...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/4i23rr.jpg)

...leading us...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2hyfmtt.jpg)

to our final destination...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2uei23r.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/s497pz.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/ndpfmc.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2r2uhag.jpg)

...a society producing tone-arms, loudspeakers and tweeters, situated in an as unusual house and surrounding (basically streching into a former mountain) as are their products...

for more informations you may go here:

http://www.vivaudiolab.com/home-j.html


(http://i62.tinypic.com/28ib24g.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/xbl7ra.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2vljfi8.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/9fzhiv.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/t7zby1.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/11971h5.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/mafau0.jpg)

...André and Jean inspecting and examinating the tweeter's "rigid oily" acoustic suspension...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/21bpzx0.jpg)

...in the nearly ten years of existance VIV Laboratory has already won quite a lot of prizes and received many awards...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2dvtveh.jpg)

...for their tweeters and especially their tonearms in different sizes and lengths...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/o8b238.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/wqq2kp.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/25q4xno.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/addvfr.jpg)

...the very specific speciality of all these tone-arms, no matter what size, is the fact that the suspension is not fix or fixed, but some sort of "swimming" in "thick oil"... and so they are called "Rigid Float/Ha (7”/ 9”/ 13”)"...

...with of course exact scientific mathematic/physical calculations and drawings within the computer...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/34igrpg.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/npjjug.jpg)

...you may presumably have noticed that a certain amount of our hosts, for example Mr. Odagi and Mr. Degawa, are already heavily "using" one of these tone-arms... and indeed they were that convincing on the vinyl-aficionados among us and made especially such an impression on André that he immediately bought one on the spot... and we all had to scratch our liquid currency in japanese Yen together so that André got it paid and could take it with him (he was going back to France early next day)...

...the developer, Mr. Akimoto, adjusting André's tone-arm, that he is to take away with him, precisely...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/33m7n69.jpg)

..from what I just got to know from Jean, this "Rigid Float" tonearm is already installed at André's home and just exactly perfect running to his biggest delight...

...and you may see for yourself, regarding this delight there was no language barrier in spite of japanese, french and english and whatever... delight is delight, no words needed...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/qqy6c8.jpg)

...altogether now...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2h36hc1.jpg)


...some of the music being played...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/23u4s3n.jpg)

...thanks a ton for the hospitality and kindness and all these technical and listening experiences...


…well, after having visited VIV-Lab we entered the very nice city of Kamakura with all its tourist attractions…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1z2ot94.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2qulv28.jpg)

…and having finished our sightseeing we felt hungry, and so we entered a small local restaurant…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/20v0mwz.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/209pq0x.jpg)

…and had a very nice typical Japanese meal with frying the meat in the center of the table…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2yv9jcz.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/amp7j7.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2z4a0iv.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/9fs4f7.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/5x67md.jpg)

…especially the very much favoured Kobe beef…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2d1n5lk.jpg)

…it was all very fine and tasty… and afterwards we went back home to Tokyo…





Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 14, 2015, 04:50:21 AM
…the next day was free for all, and this was planned way ahead… and everybody did the things that he wanted to do, resting, sightseeing, visiting, shopping…

…well, I did this as well, but to a much smaller extent… as I had met Mr. Shinichi Tanaka from Goto-society at Mr. Katou’s house I asked him if it would be possible to visit him on this (our free) day and have a listen to his system…

...to better experience what Shinichi for example is advising, exploring, generating and developing in detail till the finishing is "done" within other systems aroung the globe you may have a look here (his new internet-address is now valid)

http://audio-lab-tnk2.sakura.ne.jp/page009.html

…and he immediately agreed and had me heartily welcome, and allowed me to prolong his invitation to the other members of the gang, but Jean said, that he would already know his system, and the others refused having other things to do…

…and so it happened that they missed out an absolutely superb system that my ears enjoyed extremely… I told you already that Shinichi had lured me already quite some time ago with his saying “having the best system in the Tokyo area”, and, being there now, I could of course not resist, sightseeing and shopping to or fro…

…getting very kindly advised and instructed by Jean how to reach Hino in Tokyo, but although
theoretically top informed, I was for the very first time completely “alone” in Tokio with the Metro…
…my, oh my, what an experience…

...already when entering Asakusa station I was completely lost, not able to “read” anything indicated although I exactly knew where I was and where I wanted to go, but I was not able to find out any direction nor platform nor train…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/25804u9.jpg)

...a little bit enlarged so that you can see a little bit better...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/264qnpw.jpg)

...and then - you might imagine - normal users (thanks Jean we had a general Metro-pass for one weeik) you have to buy a single ticket from some automatic machine with similar unreadable signs on it...

…and standing there and being that lost for some ten minutes because of all those for me
unreadable and not understandable signs – just thinking of giving up and Shinichi a call that our meeting would not happen – some two very nice young ladies from the Metro service without being asked talked to me from behind if being able to help me…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/xp4fx2.jpg)

…not in Japanese, but in very good English, better than mine, no doubt… and in the first moment I couldn’t believe what happened… but after having assured myself not being in a dream I said to them that I wanted to go to Hino-station (as exactly so indicated on Shinichi Tanaka’s website)

…but as it came out, Hino-station is that far at the surroundings of Tokyo and that small a station that it admittedly is not named within the official plan of the Metro, and so it was neither to find at first sight for my two young ladies…

...but they did not give up, they accompanied me into their office and had a closer look into the computer, enlarged the complete map, and – voilà – Hino station appeared just very far out at the other end of Tokyo….

…my ladies equipped me with a map and signed in “Hino” where there was no “Hino”, explained the platforms and the trains to me… and me, glad all over, deeply bowed in Japanese style, admired their fantastic English, and thanked them a million times… and “happily” made me on my way…

…but hey, I was still very unsure… I entered all the stations and trains and platforms that were named to me and like in a labyrinth I noted precisely every name where the trains made a stop and where in addition I changed trains, just in case being totally lost, being able to ride back exactly the same way I had come…

...and I indeed felt some sort of strange, being all the time and everywhere surrounded only by people who did not speak to each other and/or were lost in their mobiles and/or wore mouth-protections and/or earphones and/or were asleep...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/3u82u.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/mrbj0y.jpg)

….huh, but as it turned out, the bigger stops were all precisely indicated and after some 1 ½ hours I indeed arrived at Hino station…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2m63ds0.jpg)

…entering a taxi to drive me to Shinichi, the taxi-driver drove, but didn’t find it… my, oh my, he spoke only Japanese, and me only English… but as if I had foreseen a situation like this I had begged Shinichi akready at Mr. Katou's to write down his name and address and telephone number onto a piece of paper, and this not only in latin words but as well precisely in Japanese writing…

...and thank god the taxi-driver could read and had a mobile with him, and he called Shinichi, and he was advised to come to a certain corner that the taxi-driver knew, and there Shinichi was already waiting to fetch me…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/21jobo2.jpg)

...imagine how glad I was, finally... what a relief... but meanwhile it was already noon…

…we walked for several minutes and then entered Shinichi Tanaka’s home which is just getting renovated...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1rbsw8.jpg)

...and went immediately downstairs into the cellar into his listening room, maximum 13-15 square meters, not more, but wonderfully equipped and extremely well composed and adjusted…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2wh2hli.jpg)

...all five way active Goto driver system, with original Goto-horns for Supertweeter, Tweeter and Mid-range... Shinichi built the low-mid and bass horns by himself while having adopted the general principle construction from Klaus, i.e. doubling the input for low-mid and doubling the input for low bass...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/16k52ip.jpg)

...flip side of the bass horn, loaded with bags filled with sand to calm down its own frequencies...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/34zfsx2.jpg)

...you know Shinichi already from the system of Mr. Katou, and so you may remember that this construction has been fulfilled by him after formerly having made a model, and this is valid of course for his own system as well, so please, have a look...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/25iw7wl.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/125hymg.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/xfch3d.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/28iyvpe.jpg)

...amplification is as well all Goto... Goto-pre-amp, Goto power amps, active Goto-cross-over...
 
(http://i58.tinypic.com/mbnaqv.jpg)

...as CD/SACD player Shinichi has an Esoteric in use...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2dbvwo2.jpg)

...Supertweeter SG-160BL, yes the beryllium version... and as tweeter SG-370DX-BL, beryllium version as well...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/i5wun4.jpg)

...double bass SG-38WNS x 2...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1s0d5g.jpg)

...double bass SG-38WNS x 2 and mid-range SG-505TT x 2 as well...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/k13msy.jpg)

...twice Goto mid-range drivers SG-505TT on each side...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1j3xaq.jpg)

..front view into the low-mid-horn equipped with 2 x SG20 on each side...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/vsgxhs.jpg)

..to the left and to the right side on the wall low and above (here is the wall to the right) constructions are put on the wall to reduce reflections...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/10mr0gj.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/1gsysm.jpg)

...and here is the wall to the left...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2igeyw0.jpg)

...all busy table with all kinds of music-sources... among them still copies of CDs being played...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2v96tz4.jpg)

...by the way, Shinichi "swears" on Furutech power connections all around on the walls for all his HiFi-units to be connected with...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ejc54y.jpg)

...mmmhhh, I don't know anything about the interna of the Goto-amps, but presumably there is no regulated power supply, so I think this might help him to get there where regululated power supply already is...

...to get the most out of his system Shinichi is already for years involved in own recordings - continuing the tradition of Mr. Seiya Goto to do his own recordings (and then play it back on own systems)...

...for that reason he has himself equipped - like Mr. Katou - although not as a professional, with quite a large armada of units for recording, i.e. professional microphones, mix-desks, Korg-DSD-recording- and playback-facilities...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ltst95.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/28i1fvd.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/abmtch.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/qz0o6f.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2mpzk2f.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2hp3zo1.jpg)

...Toshiba Bluray-player and Korg MR2000S professional 1-Bit DSD-Studio Recorder...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2i71sv5.jpg)

...for more you may go here...

http://www.korg.de/produkte/fruehere-modelle/mr2000s-produktinfo/mr2000s-produktinfo-1.html

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2ci8me8.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/264qnhk.jpg)

...from one of the sessions Shinichi donated me a recording as a present...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/14noby8.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/29wsjtt.jpg)

…well, it was all very exciting, but listening to direct DSD - and on this system - was the most, and indeed, Shinichi hadn’t promised too much having said having “the best system in the Tokyo area – it is immediately that convincing and definitely the way to go... I simply do not need to listen to other systems regarding this specific topic…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/13zz8u9.jpg)

…I was extremely surprised what a wonderful fat and realistic and natural sound with deep bass without distortion Shinichi has reached in such a small room like this, and it goes really deep down (well not to the absolute extreme like with Mr. Katou’s system, but really deep down, there is hardly anything to be missed)…

… I had the same impression already in Mr. Machida’s room (you might remember) which had nearly the same size, but was completely differently equipped with other units from other societies, so this result, I mean  T H I S  result has obviously nothing to do with the products of any society at all, but with the finely combining and tuning of all units together to some sort of a higher degree and get them coherently play… in both cases I was highly impressed, yes, really highly impressed, no matter whatever standard is set…

(Tuyen, the conditions at your home came immediately to my mind, having never ever enough room and space… but it clearly came out that "bigger" is not inevitably necessary… you would be  t h e  king in your room with a system like this and have all your needs satisfied…)

…and as we felt quite hungry after so much “working”, Shinichi invited me – after having asked me what I would like to eat - to some very fine Sushi-restaurant close by, which had this on offer…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/20fyvwx.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2ura2wo.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/nobslf.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2gwz5fm.jpg)

…and on my request the Sushi-master proudly showed me his special sushi-knife made exactly out of those sort of japanese steel that the swords of the old Samurai are made of, with which you have already a cut only by viewing…

...and on my further request to inspect it closely and pass it over to me the Sushi-master just jumped back, totally afraid, and didn’t pass it on to me… as Shinichi explained to me: honor of profession…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/m9pt9j.jpg)

…well, it became immediately clear that I later on had to get one, or two... for myself, of course…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/v8g874.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/jtt4zb.jpg)

…in spite of some initial troubles getting there, it was an absolutely fantastic day and event with lots of new experiences for me... so, thanks a ton Shinichi...

...as we now know each other for more than some fifteen years, I may say “my friend”, thank you for all your kindness and greatness and modesty and hospitality…

...you opened my eyes once more still a little bit further on our path in High Fidelity, on the "Goto-race-track"… and it was utmost joy…

...hope to see you again soon for another listening adventure wherever it may be… there are great things to come, promised…

 “domo arigato” and “kampai”…


...aaahhh, just for those who want to scroll a little up and down on the site for professional sushi-knives in Asakusa, you may go here:

http://www.kanesoh.com/app/categorygoodslist/index/GoodsCurrentPage/2/selChangeOrder/1/hidCurrentPage/1/CateGoodsListPageMode//CategoryId/1/hidMemberNo//hidUrl//hidBuyingDisplayType/0/TokenKey//

...you will be asked if you want your knives sharpened by hand...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: treblid on June 15, 2015, 11:29:31 AM
What an epic adventure.....

Thanks for sharing...
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 17, 2015, 01:10:08 AM
…having returned to Asakusa (the temples here date back till the 6th century)...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2n1rp61.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/28honx3.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/1e80zp.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/vngl85.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2954h1s.jpg)

...well, I took some photos which do not belong to HiFi but to sightseeing, but I thought that you might want to see some of them without any big report…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/2v0mvk4.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/lwdgo.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/281d0ua.jpg)

Some locals…

..the highly appetizing window displays regarding the internal offer on food, for which there is an own profession creating the meals, exactly as they are served within the restaurant, remarkably real, made out of wax or something and painted with heat-resisting colors…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/k03cpd.jpg)

..the very toxic Fugo-fish (I don’t know if it is the same name in English) for which the chefs have to have a special training for several years and a certificate to be allowed to hold them in bassins and prepare meals of them… here is some in a bassin in a window to the street with double glass isolation….

(http://i59.tinypic.com/257lx8h.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/119msfr.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2dvk1aw.jpg)

...of course, rikschaws not to be missed...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/fxgp6s.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/fbal1z.jpg)

...and the skyline with the new television tower...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2dhfa6o.jpg)

...and registered earthquakes as per 2015-05-20 with different degrees...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 17, 2015, 05:34:27 AM
…an imperial affair…

..well tuesday was really “free” as well, i.e. with no obligation for any HiFi-meeting… André went back early this day to France by airplane, and the rest of us had no special plans but to visit the very center of Tokyo with no specific aims but Emperor’s Palace and Sony Center and in the afternoon “Electric City”…

..while Jean-Laurant did some special shopping for his family and some rare vinyls (chasing for Three Blind Mice and so on) which he bought and sent to his home in Brussels/Belgium for the next LencoHeaven-meeting just to come this weekend with participants from all over the globe… you may have a look here…

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=17780.270
no. 270

…Jean and me went to central Tokyo, leaving Tokyo Central Station being more than 150 years old…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2d78wu1.jpg)

…surrounded by skyscrapers of all kinds…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/202mm8.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/dgtap.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/288fox.jpg)

…heading…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/n3u1kh.jpg)

...we reached the surroundings of the palace just wondering why there was so much police and busy action and everything so extensively sealed off, and cars and lorries controlled…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/23lia0x.jpg)

...and I was just thinking: my oh my, what much ado about nothing, it is all under control, such an exaggeration…

...and so we just took some pictures of the plan…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/ic5yth.jpg)

…and the surroundings…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/21l6ano.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2sblt28.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ms0s3b.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/24nmjnr.jpg)

...Jean and me in front ot the "Wadakura-bori Moat" of the Emperor's Palace...

...and alongside...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2eptsoo.jpg)

...heading for the direction of the Palace's main entry...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/vdmzwo.jpg)

...we got aware that there was something special going on... right in front of our eyes...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/bjiqlv.jpg)

...and we were ordered by the police where to stand and not to move but backwards... and Jean asking in japanese what is going on, he was told that the Emporor with his wife is just about to leave the Palace...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/j7zxgy.jpg)

…all painstakingly kept under surveillance by a helicopter… to consecrate a building being televised...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2gt4yut.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/fuam92.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/28a2r8y.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2wcjyb8.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/330gpye.jpg)

...late in the evening when watching some tele I indeed happened to see the Emperor and his wife cutting a band with scissors... (unfortunately everything was in japanese, even the inserted characters, so I could not find out what it exactly was...)

..when they had driven past us, I asked Jean if it would be possible to "visit" the Emperor's Palace... I told him of a german television report already some years ago of the inside of the Palace showing some 42.000 pieces of silver cutlerey... and he said: no, never ever... the only person he knows of having ever entered the Emperor’s palace was his father... Jean’s father was an artist, a famous painter for special Japanese drawings, and he indeed sold some of his works to the father of the actual emperor, to Hirohito…


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 17, 2015, 08:48:20 PM
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2wp4io5.jpg)

...this spectacle being over - according to plan you might get an impression of what an area the Emperor's Palace covers within the absolute center of Tokyo... "more" Tokyo hardly ever seems possible...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/x6d54k.jpg)

...we headed for the Tokyo International Forum with the Audio- and HiFi-Fair area some 500-800 meters away, in the middle of the international surrounding ultra-shops like Gucci, Chanel, Hermes...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/21kw3ue.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/n1os2q.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/rhl45t.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/slmky0.jpg)

...as you might know, Jean is a regular visitor and reporter of the International Audio Fair in Tokyo since its existence in 1978… and he told me that the development especially within the last years has become that exponential that the some ten year old-new fair-buildings meanwhile by far no longer are sufficient regarding space… and that to a quite large extent the exhibiting societies had already to move to the surrounding hotels…

...just across the "street"...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/k9x2z5.jpg)

...we visited Sony-Exhibition-Center... this is an ultra-modern and -appealing "house" with a lot of floors, and you are guided by foot from the top downwards in some sort of a spiral going down (you can move to any floor by elevator that you like of course, but we wanted to do the "whole" tour)...

...passing everything, really everything indoors and outdoors, that you ever can imagine regarding audio- and video-technology, including drone photography and video, up high in the sky and/or deep down in the water...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/23i9p1e.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/547taw.jpg)

...shooting pixes never ever seen before... brand-new and as well vintage in a "small" museum which very impressively shows the development of the products year by year starting from 1946 onwards... everything is interesting, and there are crowds and crowds of people of all ages on every topic to inspect and try the products out...

...for me the focus was of course clearly on HiFi and video... what I had to constate - especially after having watched the development of the historical product line that there is - for years meanwhile - no analogue technic to be found at all, neither in HiFi, nor in video... all is digital, and what a digital...

...within the last years the industry has very strongly forced digital tele and video and corresponding products because of the mass market and billions and billions of dollars to be earned, and officially being with 4 K now on tele and photo- and video-cameras nobody wants anything else any longer than this... and with 8 k to come presumably even less…

..no, unfortunately 8 k was not yet exhibited - sharper than the human eye - I very much would have liked to see it... but Jean told me, that he has had already the pleasure to see 8 k, a prototype in the development area of Sony during his stay at the Tokyo International Audio Fair in spring this year... and you should have seen his face when telling about that... turning eyes like completely collapsing in love... and anyway, there is no doubt, the trend goes to large...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/21ongwp.jpg)

...even for home use...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/xqbzw6.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/mn2q9s.jpg)

...but back to basics, there is no more any analogue and no more tubes, neither in Video nor in Audio… and I presume that analogue and tubes never will come back again - as happened to films  in analogue photography and video some time ago)

...the only thing that till this very moment still has not yet been fulfilled is the "same" level in digital audio as it has already been reached in video... something "sharper" than the human ear... (but with DSD we at least come very very close, to be tested out further of course...)

...and obviously not Sony or other corporations are working on it, but we do... and as it seems with really spectacular results... I just got two pictures of André's personal DAC in which he has already integrated the new parts that he got from Mr. Degawa (you may remember)...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/bi72gn.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/280v6m9.jpg)

...and I just was told, that André has completed his DAC with symmetrical output (after replacement of many and many TDA 1543 connected in parallel and that his unique DAC circuit offers very unique advantages. The first one having a direct connection between I2S and TDA1543 with its analog output directly connected to RCA jack, this without output capacitors and without any current to voltage conversion...

...and I was further told that André followed to 100 % important matter of listening digital files without errors and without CD media... and that perfect errorless ripping improves considerably the sound quality when compared to a CD media, even when listening to a high grade CD transport...

...and then I was told, that André demonstrated all these improvements which are all very important, but that they are mostly NOTHING when compared to incredible improvements offered by his last DIY DAC working without output capacitors and without traditional current to voltage conversion circuit. The improvement was so important that André decided to use, for the moment, just one TDA1543 instead of several dozens, as before...

(please don't blame me, if I have not reproduced everything just right, but I tried my very best...)

...and so it becomes evident to me, that we have to do all these things by ourselves, and that a "total" DAC-shootout is more and more inevitable...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 18, 2015, 08:32:14 PM
...and in the afternoon…

"Electric City"… t h e  paradise for DIYers and others…

...well, if I would not have seen this, I mean  T H I S  with my very eyes I wouldn’t have believed it…Cologne in Germany (where I live) is not that small a city with more than 1 Mio inhabitants, and it has a nice inner center from just after the birth of Jesus Christ till the Middle Ages, some three till four kilometers in diameter… and you may imagine, so is "Electric City", just a part of Tokyo, nothing but electrics and electronics, infinitely…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/scdxmd.jpg)

…arriving at the station…

…and this is the “new” look everywhere and all around, no matter if young and dynamic...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ypj8cw.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/27y4l0y.jpg)

...and/or traditional with Kimono and sunshade (some 33 °C here at the time)...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/nlzlmo.jpg)

...hardly anybody is without modern technology, mobile, pad, cameras and so on…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/voqz3r.jpg)

…but this "look" will obviously be just a temporary thing... lately I saw a report regarding ultra-technology which is to come in the near future – no joke – it is already running, not only in tests…

...the prognosis for 2025 will have overcome all these actual “outfits”... no need to say: all digital...

...then we will have a small 2x2 mm chip implanted in the skin on our head, connected with some nerves, doing all this for us just by thinking, and within the corner of our eyes there will be a small monitor showing all for us, and we will be able to "focus" on this "monitor" within our eyes just like when we have a close look onto something…

...no joke: with this technology medicines already have made lame "walk" and blind "see" !!! this newest generation of chips is no longer pushed off by the human body (that was the greatest problem so far), but adapted...

...and although the medicines are not able to connect two interrupted parts of a single nerve, they are nevertheless able to "combine" "interrupted" nerves putting such a chip in between... and this way the human brain is "able" to learn totally anew how to "walk" and how to "see", the "connection" is there again...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/rsdc1t.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/4tojn6.jpg)

..with quite a lot of barkers with big bright shields on the pavements…

(http://i58.tinypic.com/ibb8zp.jpg)

...before my trip to Japan I got already several inquiries, even from abroad, if I would be able to bring certain electronics back with me which are not available over here, but I refused, not not willing to, but just simply being overtaxed… you may have a look for yourself...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/29dtoo5.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/5xmmo0.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/263e9mx.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2zqv86q.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/nfmgdf.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/9ixydw.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2yjxb4j.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2ujttlw.jpg)

and in between all these modern things, some vintage stuff, very vintage, some Bugatti, from the 1920ies or so... I didn't trust my eyes...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/bf2ic3.jpg)

...immediately vanishing into some small garage...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/wsqtua.jpg)

...and electronics, electronics, electronics...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/zwm34n.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/29le4cp.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/118g703.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2hfnpsz.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/29xdcw3.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2d8l1lx.jpg)

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 21, 2015, 11:56:07 PM
...the next day a look at Yahoo's weather forecast for Japan showed the following...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2e5rxuh.jpg)

...clear blue sky all over Japan, some 33 °C, and the next Taifun to come right in front of the door...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2hgy1qb.jpg)

... this time we were kindly fetched by car from our hotel by Kazumasa Oguri, a marine biologist (to the right), and a friend of his (to the left) from Tokyo University, both very friendly and ambitious (and DIY) vintage HiFi-Fans...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2060im9.jpg)

...Mr. Oguri is working with "his" submarine deep down til 6.500 m into the sea doing scientific research...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/whz5ds.jpg)

…and Jean Laurent Veys took his three shopping bags with newly acquired Three Blind Mice- and so jazz-vinyls with him to sent them by post...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2zzkawj.jpg)

...this is the official japanese sign for "Post"...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/210k40o.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/v3q04z.jpg)

...to his home in Leuwen/Brussels/Belgium just right in time for the Lenco Heaven festival which was to come rather a short time ahead… and they look like this…

(http://i62.tinypic.com/r0xb91.jpg)

…picture credit to the Lenco Heaven site… http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=17780.270

…riding through Tokyo for about more than an hour to Kanazawa Bunko in the southern area of enlarged Tokyo, near Yokohama, this time not underground with the Metro, but on lifted inner city motor highway, we got a small impression of greater Tokyo, its port and the southern surroundings…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/5y8bq1.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/ab1l05.jpg[/IMG

[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/ab1l05.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2wgry1k.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/a5ksj.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2vw6a7p.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/140anmb.jpg)

…shortly before arriving at our destination we had lunch in a small restaurant recommended by our hosts...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/wvoj1f.jpg)

…with a special breed of beef…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1zfq735.jpg)

…Misuji… which looked like this… and which tasted like this...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/xgeffb.jpg)

...and when arriving at the home of Mr. Oguri we were kindly received by the family...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/5fpvuf.jpg)

..entering the home we were immediately led into the DIYers paradise...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/f0ysuu.jpg)

...with precious equipment to measure all kinds of things regarding audio...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/24yshfs.jpg)

...and all the addtional necessary units to "play" with...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2cfbfyu.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/immon9.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/15rb47p.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2i0rzhf.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/mccj82.jpg)

..while this professional self-restored and personally tuned EMT 930 turntable with TSD15 (and of course a second tonearm and several other pick-ups) is already running within the owner's system...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2rqlqub.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/10f27bb.jpg)

..the second tonearm being locked and adjusted by some bicycle race equipment, working wonderfully and precisely...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/dyu3w4.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/20acadg.jpg)

(http://i58.tinypic.com/15j0r6.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2jcag5z.jpg)

...with some self-built LEDs to control and adjust the stroboscopic effect...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/w0kk6t.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2eanm2c.jpg)

...via as well self-built remote control for 33, 45 and 78 rpm... my respect, that works fantastic and very precisely...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/ww0mq1.jpg)

...some tonearm weighing...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2rpekua.jpg)

...and you may guess what is in the making here... right you are...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/so7q69.jpg)

...as speaker system there is a Siemens reference double unit from the 1940/50ies from a former radio station running...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/64p81t.jpg)

..the flip side...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/nytq41.jpg)

..with - of course - self-built tube amps...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/117hc9x.jpg)

...and another set of self-built tube amps...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2csgsua.jpg)

...and some very very rare and extremely expensive german Rhode & Schwarz equipment for tuning in professional radio stations... FM Monitoring Demodulator 87,5 - 108 MHz FKDL, Rohde & Schwarz VHF Relay Receiver Type EU 6201 and Rohde & Schwarz VHF FM Relay Receiver Type EU 201 which at the time were that sophisticated that the german broadcasting stations calibrated their sending frequencies according to these measurement-equipment... here in this system in combination with Denon Network CD/Media Player DN-700C...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/w2nmg2.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/s6m52u.jpg)

...and one of the very first (professional) headphones ever, from Western Electric, patented 1918/07/23...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/2dhvf2d.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/15dxwmq.jpg)

...one open ear-phone...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/kao0b7.jpg)

...with corresponding amplification of the time...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/eq8sow.jpg)

...and in between all our inspection and listening Kazumasa hosted us with delicious cold drinks and some refreshing orange dessert...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/20ixfr9.jpg)



...and the proud owner...

(http://i61.tinypic.com/15wjoeq.jpg)

...among others played the following music for us...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/wi9cax.jpg)

Sir John Barbirolli, Mozart, Symphoni No. 41, 'Jupiter', Symphony No. 29, 'The Magic Flute Overture, Hallé Orchestra, 1956-1959

(http://i61.tinypic.com/xfdgg0.jpg)

...Andrés Segovia, The EMI Recordings 1949, EAC 60166, Mono...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/t4wwtv.jpg)

...Astor Piazzolla y su Quinteto Tango Nuevo, Tristezas de un Doble A, 1987, Live


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 23, 2015, 11:14:47 PM
…in between our trip on Thursday before, after having visited Kanno Labs and the 100 year old trees of Japan unfortunately my camera went out of power… but I still managed to combine some pixes of my own that after all I still found, really a few, with some information taken from the net… so if you like to see... we went in just for a cup of coffee and to have a listen to the HiFi-system here...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2n82e81.jpg)


http://www.sansou-murata.com/

…as one might read on their site – no panic please, it is as well in English - Sansou Murata is situated in the hot springs area of Yufuin, Oita Prefection in Kyushu Island, and this particular place ranks 3rd in Japan for the amount of hot water. It was built in 1992 at the foot of Mount Yufu… see the general plan here…

(http://i61.tinypic.com/xkupnq.png)

...the main Ryokan building and some twelve guest houses were brought in here intact as they were in the Northeastern Region of Nigata Prefecture where they had been used for over a hundred years...

...unlike most of these historical and traditional Japanese houses and other ryokans with low ceilings, here the ceilings are high and supported by old, thick and strong wooden beams...

...the speciality here is the perfect marriage of old and modern architecture creating synergetic effects...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/15wh4zt.jpg)

...Sansou Murata is unique in Japan... there are uncountable hot springs in Japan, but here guests can enjoy hot spring bath at any time in their own room…

…but we were not in for vacancies or relaxation, we were only guided in here by our hosts because of High Fidelity and a really wonderful cup of coffee, just to get an impression and to listen for half an hour or so to the superb system in the bar, "Tan's Bar"...

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ijk9ok.jpg)

...and then move on on our way to the next meeting…

(http://i57.tinypic.com/sp9gxw.jpg)

..well, seeing all this, listening to all this, it becomes immediately clear that the owner without a doubt "must" be an "addicted" vintage HiFi-lover and great Jazz-Fan... and so “the” High Fidelity "here" finds its expression in a very large, extended and superbly with comfortable armchairs equipped room of some 120 square meters with a very high roof… there is no ceiling – it is going up some estimated 7 – 8 meters... and above an old running chimney on the wall is just “hanging” a superb Western Electric WE16…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/16j4jft.jpg)

..no need to ask for further equipment… everything is in the same league as the WEs… and although we could not “see” everything, it seemed to be the most natural thing in the world all things being connected to quite a large number of vintage tube amps, sourced by - what would you have thought - the great studio EMT 927 record player with EMT TSD15 adjusted…

(http://i63.tinypic.com/33mop4o.jpg)

…all way to short to inspect and to listen to in detail, but with the coffee we were in at least for quite some time into Miles Davis – Kind of Blue, from 1959 – and yes, no question, what else... the original mono version…

(http://i59.tinypic.com/35cl8x0.jpg)

...you may especially enjoy the wonderful show of pictures covering nature during the whole year...

http://murata-voice.jugem.jp/

..on the bottom there are several pages to click on to continue...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 25, 2015, 12:04:13 AM
..unfortunately I cannot present pixes from three other very interesting HiFi-events because my cam went out of power… and there where we have been there was no possibility to acquire an additional power supply… so, let’s hope that one of the other members of the gang might help us out…

..but nevertheless in the end of the Japan trip you may allow me some personal words on my own… so if someone should not be interested in my unqualified, non-scientific, non-DIYer incompetent nonsense, then please don’t read any further, it’s just my opinion, I do not want to convince anybody else but share what I have experienced…

o.k. that being said, for those who are interested from where I come from, HiFi-wise… having already quite some sophisticated units at the time (EMT record player with TSD15, Audio Research, Marc Levinson, Crown DC300A, heavily modified Klipschorns – but not yet active), I got a “how-to-live-better-at-your-home”-magazine in my fingers, in octobre 1978… some 40 years ago (in words: forty)…

...I had just married, and you know the women with their congenital inner urge to ameliorate the own nest then – then we males hardly do have any chance, no, not a single one to be honest… and so my wife wanted me to fetch especially that magazine… and of course I "obeyed", I simply did…

…and what ?... to my greatest delight and as well to my greatest shock after scrolling through the pages all of a sudden I stumbled upon this... it took me my whole life to get over this, and I am still not totally done with it… it is still “shocking” (me) today, but please, imagine and keep in mind: we write 1978 in the year of The Lord… (no, we did not visit this system, unfortunately…)

…this man had already done exactly that what we at the time were just dreaming and jokingly talking about: building one's house around the stereo system…

...I nearly collapsed, I was not able to go home, I was breathless, speechless, motionless, I don’t know what else… and I still have a little bit of that feeling today when I only see these pictures… but it was clear within less than a second that I had to have something like this, immediately knowing that it was not possible, at least not quick like a flash of lightning...

No 1 in HiFi-Japan in 1978

...and I am still pregnant with this ever since...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/t6419t.jpg)

…this is Mr. Kobayashi’s system in 1978, president of a great Japanese steel corporation, and at the time the No. 1 in HiFi in Japan… view from the garden with the 6 meter long bass horns and twin bass drivers outside in the green….

(http://i61.tinypic.com/14njqxg.jpg)

…view of the twin bass drivers YL-1250D on the beginning of the horn to the mouth-opening of the house which with both horns fit the whole wall inside…

(http://i60.tinypic.com/1znuzbt.jpg)

…opening mouths of all the horns from the inside….

…so if you have a close look, nothing of what we here ever did in the following decades was new (digital aside)…

...not really big bass horns (here 6 meters in length and because of the reduction ot the mathematical “normal” mouth opening of times four to compensate the loss in sound pressure doubled in input with two YL-1250 D compression drivers), not compression drivers, not active crossovers, not multi-amping… it was already common and quite natural in use then, there, in Japan...

…and I have to admit: till this very day we did not that what Mr. Goto began to practice and Mr. Kobayashi continued: we did not record anything by ourselves and did not play it back on our systems (at least not with really professional equipment)…

...but I was told by the reporter of the story whom I called immediately the next day, that Mr. Kobayashi did… he played drums and he had a complete arsenal with every corresponding thing to complete his drum set…

...but he played drums only for sound testing… and I was told that he sat on his chair and played drums and recorded himself with a Studer A80 two track with 78 cm / sec directly, i.e. without mixing console, and played it immediately back on his system… in 1978 !!!, hey, come on... how "ultra" was that then ?

…and as the reporter told me, Mr. Kobayashi was just not satisfied with the very highest tones coming from the super tweeter… and that he was just beginning to try out some FANE tweeter coming from England…

...please have a look at the collection of different triangles for comparison purposes to test out high tones in nature and in reproduction...

...and actually Mr. Kobayashi was just trying out the new Goto horn SG-150 - at the time still the 150 cm long version with small mouth input for the former driver versions...

(http://i57.tinypic.com/156vo2g.jpg)

...which exactly 11 years later - after multi-amping - became my very first Goto horn that I still have in use today to my utmost delight...

(http://i58.tinypic.com/jzio04.jpg)

...and nothing has changed between then and now... already then an armada of different turntables and pick-ups was in use to test out - at the time - vinyls...

...the second house that I ever saw from the inside having been built around a stereo-system was the Goto-system of the famous japanese pianist Shigemi Takayo… you have already seen it with Mr. Katou’s system… here are just the pictures… and yes, it was in the same magazine, the pages that followed... in 1978 as well (although the building of this system itself dates back to 1970...)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/29zspwj.jpg)

...the mouth opening of the bass horn admittedly finishes with the opening in the ceiling, but the prolonging of both the corner-walls on each side are used to prolong the bass horn physically... and so they were able to enlarge and deepen the frequency spectrum and measure down to some 28 cycles within this room...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2q0nhht.jpg)

...view from above...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2u41yyq.jpg)

...the tape-recording corner with professional (deep down below in the corner) and several semi-professional tape recorders and a bunch of vinyl players with different pick-ups (already in 1970 !!!)...

...by the way I was told by Shinichi Tanaka that in the Goto-Lab there still exist quite a lot of recordings from Mr. Takajo, which till this very day are used by Mr. Seiya Goto as a reference when it comes to finely adjusting and tuning the drivers...

...so you may imagine that after having seen this, I was completely shattered... but I had already in hands what I wanted to have, I knew this, and the earlier the better... exactly this... or something comparable... and so I started to work on it... all the time...

...you know the rest... all done, all active, all multi amp, all class A, all Goto horns, all Goto drivers, all highest end, all beryllium (as far down as available)... and on top digital, I do not mean the "normal" digital, but the digital that we have...

...dreaming of course in between all the time to go to Japan and have a visit and a listen by myself, but as is in life, being not a millionaire, with quite a lot of other obligations, and a family, and children, and a house, and a car... yes, you know... and so the system had to some sort of wait, i.e. to grow only step by step - as is with you now Tuyen - but it is all very well worth it, you will see...

...and in the end it was good having waited for so long with the advantage now being "totally" prepared and equipped with all our informations and experiences for that "battle", and it showed...

...I got to know precisely on what level the japanese High-Enders vintage and anew are with now not only having read about but personally heard nearly every system and driver that was still lacking in my personal HiFi-life, and where is our, resp. my position...

...and what ? done everything just right, no need to change anything... wow...

...but now you might ask me for the "best" system, the "best", the "very best"...?

…o.k., just my two cents…

…there is no doubt: HiFi-wise we were in the Himalayas, way above 8.000 meters up in the sky… and you can indeed totally enjoy all the different and beautiful and fantastic systems that are playing all around, here, and there, and everywhere…

…and like in the Himalayas every “mountain” up above 8.000 meters has its own personality, its own charisma, its own “flair”, its own characteristics… vintage and anew… it is simply wonderful and a great pleasure, and yes, privilege and honour, having experienced all these one after another…

…on our trip we had some 15 systems to evaluate, and it was absolutely sublime… the other day Jean told me that he knows of and has already visited and mostly reported about some 400 or so different systems of this caliber or comparable… and some absolutely superb ALE- and Goto-systems without having the permission to publish them… what an experience is this please ?

…anyway, my greatest respect and admiration goes to all our visited Japanese HiFi-friends, who hosted us like kings, every single one of them is totally ambitious and striving for perfection and synergy with greatest passion, huge ambition, utmost care und infinite love to detail and… yes, indeed, they are tickeling out the most of every single unit and system… bravo !!!

…”sufficient” volume (for a live performance) is given in all systems… “sufficient” sound pressure is there as well… synergetic effects add even more… there is no more discussion necessary regarding these topics…

…but different systems for different kinds of music in different rooms…???... I know of several HiFi-aficionados even over here in Europe, when I asked about their HiFi-dreams what that would be, several totally independently told me for classic system A, for jazz system B, for rock and pop system C and so on… well, o.k., but personally I have had and still have my biggest problems with this point of view … I would not want this, and… I do not need this…

…from my experiences I thankfully must not share this view… of course I do know, what they mean and what they want and what they are looking for, sure, but for me just one single system has to be able to “handle” all these different kinds of music… it is all about frequencies… no matter what they put together in the end - and when a system is really “precise” it is indeed able to handle all this properly…

…to answer the question: What is the “best” system?… well, there is no “best” system – they are all valid “competitors”, and without a doubt everyone of us could very splendidly live with just a single system of these…

..by the way: ”best system” ? what would that be after all?... this would be comparable to the question: what is “the best car”? Porsche, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Ferrari, BMW….?

…same with wine… what is the “best” wine ?... and indeed HiFi reminds me a little of wine tasting… you have a really good bottle, and you have ten tasters, and… yes, right, afterwards you have 11 meanings…

...and you think, hey, they are all not just tasting one wine out of one bottle, they all are tasting another wine… everybody smells and tastes something different… and you are lucky when the one or other smells or tastes something like you… the same seems to be valid for HiFi-systems and/or single units and components - and nowadays especially with digital stream…

…well, I think the question regarding the “best” system cannot be answered this way… the individual “better” and “worse” signs of performance become pregnant just in immediate comparison… with cars it is the same, they all drive absolutely superb, but it is you to say what you really want and need… because it is your demands with every single specific peculiarity… and in HiFi this is the room, the wife, the money and so on… we all know about that… and… are we ever able to escape out of this?…

…and then different countries, different people, different customs, different habits, different tastes, different rooms, different systems, different units, different sources, different music… to be honest, you do not really expect me to bring all this under one hat, to one solution, to “the” solution ? no, not really, do you ?

…nevertheless let me try… the “best” system to me is to hear “no” system when you listen to music… there where we have been some listeners tried to “reach” this level of condition by closing their eyes…

…but “the best” system – in my opinion - is not only to hear “no” system “but no system with eyes wide open”… at whatever loudness level – with definitely  n o  need to turn the loudness level down, not only longing but indeed reaching that level till it is just right, i.e. natural…

...that may be different for every listener within his own system and surrounding… but in reality we never ever have any influence on “a” level… think of a thunder, a choir, a single voice, a triangle or whatever…

…even in these highest end systems it appeared quite often that the loudness level had to be adjusted, with hardly ever an exception always downwards (according to the “feeling” of the one or other listener), mostly always exactly there where from my impression upwards would have been needed, but was generally felt as "disturbing" – to reach exactly that “level”, the optimum “range”, to play within a certain room with a given system…

…we all know that, because we all have “our” own room and “our” own system, and we know of “this point” in our system very well… but to be able to enlarge or reduce the volume without “loosing” that “perfect level” that  i s  the most for me…

...in all my HiFi-live – till lately - I some sort of “suffered” from not always getting "really" into the music because of not having reached that certain level in loudness that is just exactly “right” and “necessary”, but at that point simply was felt as not “pleasant”…

…and when it became really “interesting” the system and the components still could play, but not on that level of satisfaction that I had on “the” lower optimum volume… so, to reach this (personal) optimum volume without any derangement, that’s it what we are heading for, don't we? …well, at least ultimately I have found it for me…

(mmmhhh, did I manage to transport to you what is cooking in my head ? ...not that easy..)

..well, that’s about the “best system”… if you ask me about the “best sound”, the “very best” sound - well, that’s a different thing (for me)…it still doesn’t exist from what I have heard so far and listened to, but theoretically I have it in my head… and I would be able to build it, but I cannot afford it… neither do I have the room for it… so it presumably will remain a dream forever…

…but for those who can… generally speaking: it would be some sort of my system from 80 cycles upwards with the low bass and upper bass horn construction and principles adapted from Klaus equipped with Mr. Katou’s Goto highest end bass arrangement (this was the most simply regarding the ease in sound pressure in that low and lowest frequency range way down - exactly there where most of the other systems have hardly anything to offer...)… something like this… and to be tested out of course… if I had the money and the room I instantly would do it…

…but hey… “dreaming” of something is the one thing, and “having” one thing the other… and if I really stop and think about it, the older I get the more Konfuzius comes to my mind who said (what I formerly did not that really understand, but now do – I think at least): “The way is the destination”…

…as is with digital… digital streaming…  I am convinced that here the “most” can be realized regarding sound amelioration… I said it elsewhere, it is like cooking: what you do not put in, you cannot get out… so, nothing new, you know the discussions and the results all around…

...and yes, yes, yes, I know, some will crucify me, again and again and again… it is the generation of the squares, the transportation of the squares, the amplification of the squares and the reproduction of the squares that (for me) create “the” wanted sound…

...and exactly this – and I repeat – exactly this - is clearly to be heard, at least in all those systems where there is a connection to digital streaming… unfortunately there were only very few…

…to realize these very few was rather disappointing for me… especially those sophisticated vintage systems with tubes and turntables have so far completely refused and if (with only single exceptions) then mostly shabbily neglected the implementation of digital into their systems… (but contrarily everywhere the biggest flat screens with up to 4 K hang already on the wall…)

...my expectations were completely different… I had expected that in exactly that country where “digital” has been invented the implementation and the making use of it already would have reached that level that I found so incredible some forty years ago with those otherworldly horns and (money plays no role) active multi-amping…

…but no… as Jean prepared me to bring some guest presents with me for our Japanese hosts quite a long time ago I thought o.k., some souvenirs from Cologne, Cologne Cathedral in small as a key-holder or something like that, but then it came to my mind, hey, we are visiting music lovers with superb systems, so some music, no not “some” music, but the "most" of what musically is possible (and available so far) has to be "the" present and would make them glad … and so I choose some of my very very best and absolutely highest end tracks as FLACs and put them on USB-sticks… and offered them as present…

…but hey, what do you think ? … they very kindly and politely thanked for the present with repeated japanese bowings, but looked at me and the USB-stick as if I would come from another planet and offer something "forbidden" of which they definitely have no clue of…

...and even after Jean kindly had translated what it was all about with the USB-stick, explaining "Master-Tape", they admittedly were amazed, but looked even more disbelieving as before… no, I will not name them, but I feel obliged to deliver an explanation via Jean in japanese of what to do with FLACs… (well, o.k., we all once started, didn’t we?)

…and yes, this digital – to me - it is the icing on the cake in HiFi (if done right)… and my stomach lets me feel that an implementation like Chanh for example lately has already realized would absolutely perfectly fit into the absolute High-End-HiFi-Nirvana… I’m burning to hear this one day… hopefully soon…

...so, and last not least let me thank all those fantastic and superb and international HiFi-addicted aficionados who not only in Japan but on the long run hosted me, pampered me, cared for me, guided me, informed me, explained to me (as no DIYer), inspired me, showed me, advised me, had me a (repeated) listen… and of course endlessly Jean Hiraga, who made this all so uniquely perfectly possible for me/us...

...what a trip !!!  T h e  HiFi-trip in my life...

...it was – and still is - all like in a never ending big life long puzzle, with tiny bits and pieces to more and more fill in the whole… and this is still to be done… and ha, what a pleasure !!!... each and every day…

…and in the end of the trip let me leave you with that what “nerves” me most in my life:

“Music was my first love, and it will be my last”…

…with one of my favorites:

“where are we ?
What the hell is going on ?…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYIAfiVGluk


...and a handmade calligraphy from Hito Katogatoku Tanoshinu from a World Culture Heritage...

(http://i62.tinypic.com/5mmlww.jpg)

...translated something like this: "Everybody can find his pleasure in life"...

...well, I found, and the calligraphy has already found as well a nice place on the wall of our diningroom...


Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: shooter on June 27, 2015, 01:01:20 AM
rhlauranna, FYI you should hang the calligraphy the other way around, because the words are upside down!
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on June 27, 2015, 04:20:57 AM
rhlauranna, FYI you should hang the calligraphy the other way around, because the words are upside down!

thanks a ton, now you have an impression how I felt in Asakusa station...

I have turned it... here as well...

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on September 17, 2015, 03:32:00 AM
o.k. here it is, for all those DIYers who understand and are interested, the long kept "secret" of the circuit of the Goto power amp with 30 watts which I just got from Shinichi Tanaka

http://audio-lab-tnk2.sakura.ne.jp/page009.html
(this is his new address)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/nboxzs.jpg)
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: rhlauranna on July 30, 2017, 11:38:04 AM
Well, long time no see, and I am glad the site is running again…

So, here is some news… you might already have heard or read that Stefano some weeks ago returned from his HiFi-trip to Japan with Jean Hiraga testing out a dozen or so of the most superb systems on the planet…

I very much would have liked to hear and read (much much) more about the experiences he has made and about his “listening results”, but so far he still is rather shy and reticent regarding his hosts… and has only published some “snapshots” … but what snapshots ! …anyway, he has promised that there is more to come, so stay tuned…

…as I described Kato(u) San’s full range Goto system two years ago very much in detail ( Reply #399) and because he is using a DDDAC 1543 DAC with 60 chips from Doede it might be interesting for those who are curious about Stefano's results (and pixes) which he shares here:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2017/05/1.html

you may see and read for yourself…

"this system is the best, the VERY best system I ever listened to in my whole life, period"

as well here:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2017/05/japan-random-pixies-and-thoughts.html

… not to tap on anybody’s feet – and I hardly dare – but let me quote him, Stefano, one of the greatest vinyl (more than 10.000…) and tube and tape machine (Studer, Stellavox, Telefunken M15A…) afficionados I am aware of – but it is always the result that “counts” - with his conclusion here:

“Tubes are cool, sought-after... but solid state is able to sound much better, in some systems.”

I know, quite a lot of HiFi-enthusiasts will disagree, but Stefano definitely confirms my personal long time impressions and experiences…

Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: yarhevarhe on August 04, 2017, 10:12:20 PM
Does this DAC sound as good as the KillerDac?
Title: Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
Post by: stevenvalve on August 04, 2017, 11:52:32 PM
Like all great DACs, its really depends on the system, the type of music you play, the quality of the CD, Your own prejudices, it is often so CD dependant.  Never ends.  There is often no best with the top contenders, and even then, ten people with 4 different winners.