Reinhard, nice! many thanks for sharing.
I'm keen for this, if it is a marked improvement over the DDDAC1543 MK2. That is assuming Doede brings the unit into production either as finished or kit form...
Enjoy listening at Klaus'!
Awesome thanks for the heads up, Reinhard.
Been waiting for this for a while now.
How does it sound compared to the dddac1543? How many modules have you managed to stack so far?
Thanks again,
Tuyen
Hi Reinhard,
My kit should be arriving next week. Should be fun to put together and listen to many of the hi-res material I have been collecting.
You are currently using capacitor or transformer coupled output at the moment? Which one do you prefer more, sound-wise?
I will have to use lab power supply to power the unit at first, but will slowly collect needed parts to build the proper power supply circuit which Doede says brings much improvement.
Excited to try something new!
Tuyen would you like to borrow a duelund alexandraia 2.0uf and a vsf 2.2uf ???
Naaaa, think the transformers will beat any cap in that position!Hmmm maybe i should sell my duelunds and get transformers for the kdac????
V
http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.htmlOne day tuyen will bring his dac over it would be interesting if its got potential i might buy one to play with
did anybody see at all results like this within a DAC whatsoever ?
Naaaa, think the transformers will beat any cap in that position!Hmmm maybe i should sell my duelunds and get transformers for the kdac????
V
mmmmhhhhhh, wonderful, finally Doede has visualised the first test results... if you are interested you might have a look here:
http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html
did anybody see at all results like this within a DAC whatsoever ?
well, to be able to "listen" to this, one might be able to transport these square through one's amplification chain without alteration, and then it's only a question of your speakers (and room)...
happy reading !
my, oh my, oh my...
so for all, who might be interested in "perfect" bass, have a look here, how it should be generated before being amplified:
http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html
and please go here to the 20 Hz picture... this is simply spectacular and that's what it is all about, if you don't have this in the origin you will never ever get a bass amplified in reproduction that sounds really "natural"...
you should hear this... I am rather convinced that it doesn't get any better than this...
yes, and here tested in another surrounding and in direct comparison with other (commercial) DACs...
http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_sound2.html
have fun...
Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@
I thought any measurements, no matter how accurate they might be, are a joke around here ? :)measurements are great for people that understand them no good for me just press PLAY
TRUST YOURS EARS! (AND ENJOY YOUR JOURNEY) :P :P
I thought any measurements, no matter how accurate they might be, are a joke around here ? :)
TRUST YOURS EARS! (AND ENJOY YOUR JOURNEY) :P :P
This is where delta sigma (aka PCM1794 / ESS Sabre etc) DAC's have dirty secret.just 1 slight correction, the PCM1794 is a dual format chip, it has different inputs for PCM and DeltaSigma.
This is where delta sigma (aka PCM1794 / ESS Sabre etc) DAC's have dirty secret.just 1 slight correction, the PCM1794 is a dual format chip, it has different inputs for PCM and DeltaSigma.
The dirty secret you speak of, is the delta sigma noise inherent with 1bit data.
I don't think this dddac is utilizing the DeltaSigma capability, I believe they are using PCM only ?
Which isn't a bad thing, it means if we feed it a clean 24bit music file it shouldnt actually need any further filtering, and in NOS mode the dac itself won't mess with it any further, just simply convert it. I like the idea of that.
There is a fork in the road, and there is a choice to make.
Do we pursue a DSD Dac, do it better than the other limited offerings available? With this option, filtering is needed to clean up the dirty secret.
Or ,,,,,, do we pursue a 24bit or 32bit PCM hi-res solution? With this option NOS mode is the way to go, I do agree with the way the DDD chaps have chosen to do it.
I think trying to do both formats, may not be ideal for either??
In either case, DSD or PCM, Reinhard is right, half the puzzle is sorting out the "feed" of the data.
I was at Stevens a week ago. Doug bought around his laptop, configured for music playback with Jplay, out to Offramp, into Killerdac. It just didn't have the liquidity and clarity of the Wadia spinner into Killerdac. Zen, I'm hoping your solution will get us there, as we're all sick of burning.
That's actually very good information on the circuit design. Well done to Doede for documenting it well.
If I'm reading it correctly, the negative/positive balanced Outputs are combined to form the single unbalanced output.
Q I have is, why not just leave the output as balanced?
So in the 1794's case, even when run in non oversampling mode without a digital filter there areWell, for some reason I thought the 1794 was an R2R, and was doing an internal conversion from dsd to PCM, before the Dac step (when handling dsd input).
only so many OP bits that are switched on and off at very high speed to make up the true 24 bit
OP.
It's one of the reasons I was waiting for the next generation R2R DAC's - which got dumped. There's a lot to be said forI guess the R2R king is the 1704 ?
just a very good R2R DAC.
That's no problem. I don't want to give too much away but the 'feed' is only part of the issue.I consider A/B to be all part of the feed. Ie: the reading of the data, and transporting it to the Dac chip, is all part of it.
The end game is a) Complete isolation from source (PC) and b) absolute lowest jitter at the DAC.
DDD has made a very good effort but it is still some distance from absolute cutting edge and ticking all the
boxes.
It would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.Springcreek what usb to spdif does he recommend?
I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.
It would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.Ipad :o :o crap i dont have one i think my cd94/zenclock is safe for time being unless macmini can do wonders but $$$ investment is needed for a lesson
I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.
Hey MarioIt would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.Springcreek what usb to spdif does he recommend?
I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.
I had a quick look at the Core Audio site and it looks like they use digital amps with field coil lowthers :oDigital amps :o :o :o :o timbre,texture,tone where ???? bloody hell no idea
I would have thought that would be an awful combo. Love the look of those FC lowthers, would go well is one of Martin's front horns ;D
Hey T hopw are the bass horns coming along? Martin sent me the plans, really got me thinking...I looove horn bass, seems like other bass arrangements blunt the transient...not enough whack!
Too much gear to try...so few $$$ :)
send it to steve its closer ;)Hey MarioIt would be neat if such a server actually gave us what we want instead on relying on old clunky/cranky transports.Springcreek what usb to spdif does he recommend?
I know my wife would be much happier with a PC based system run off an iPad. Lets hope we can get there soon.
Not sure mate, he just said there were some good options available.
If I get one I'll send it to you for a listen. 8)
Andy, what happened with the BLH boxes? Have you tried them yet?Hey Oz
. The other group finding the disc spinner still sounds best and computer transport still has long way to go... both groups listening to same music. which group is deaf? or should i say, which group is more deaf then the other? :)
and has the risk of HDD crash and die scenarios which most currently ignore.I don't ignore it, it's a significant risk, and costs me a fair whack to mitigate. I have terabytes of SACD iso and DVDA rips stored, that took me hundreds and hundreds of hours to backup. Stored on expensive NAS with raid redundant discs. But that isn't enough, also have offsite copies.
Hi Res downloads are great quality wise but come at a fair premium over regular 16 bit and then it's downhill trying to get it off the SSD with minimal degradation.Not sure what scenario you mean here V. Downloading has error checking built into the protocols, to ensure what you get is bit perfect (in terms of duplication). Curious if there is another scenario I'm not thinking of, that has flaws.
Andy, what happened with the BLH boxes? Have you tried them yet?Thanks for giving us the boxes.
Link to discussion thread on Doede's new designed DAC on DIYAudio forums:Great read tuyen and congrats to doede's work having a go is better then putting $$$ into commercial pockets,looking forward to hearing your dac at my place with computer audio you never know i might be in for a treat...........
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html)
Hi Andy,
Most welcome if you ever stop by WA. Doede's designs are excellent. Well designed, fun to build, not silly priced, reference-level performance in my opinion. The 120 chip paralleled TDA1543 DDDAC1543MK2 with the USB module was my fav DAC for long time. This new hi-res usb dac he has designed plays on same level for 16/44 files. Hi-res recordings add that extra layer of fidelity that is quite enjoyable.
From my own testing, I felt USB via pc transport has already surpassed the performance of disc spinners long time ago. Hence why I decided to move on all my disc spinners. Isn't it funny how there seem to be 2 separate groups. One who has moved to computer based transport because they feel it it brings sonic improvement. The other group finding the disc spinner still sounds best and computer transport still has long way to go... both groups listening to same music. which group is deaf? or should i say, which group is more deaf then the other? :)
Me personally, I think I'm lucky to be in the first group. As using computer transport also includes the much-important convenience factor, without having to feel that I am compromising on sound quality :)
Re the bass horns: Nearly done. Probably 1 weekend of work/beer to go before we be rocking. Indeed, nothing like bass notes between 50-300hz through a front loaded horn hitting ya ears and body. The speed and scale of transients are pretty crazy. Reinhard was right all-long about bass horns being the final frontier with regards to 'doing' horns.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1370915/Audio/pcm1794_flowdiag.jpg)
If there is a way to bypass that oversampling module, and get straight to the dac modulator, then it's undocumented.
If that modulator handles the re-sampling from 16/24bit into whatever multibit wordlength the chip converts at (?), then maybe the modulator also has its own noise-shaping/dithering algorithms?
Doede, chime in here, and tell us what you know the 1794 chip does in each of these modules, so I can understand the approach better.
The important thing to understand is the 8 x OS filter and the modulator are separate things.Yeah, I came to that realisation while thinking and typing last night (note the quote below).
The 8 x OS filter has it's own low pass brick wall filter, and the SD modulator has it's internal, in the Sabres case, 5th order
LPF. The modulators filter is working much higher and as you can see from the vid in a different way.
In both Sabre and 1794 you can disable the OS filter and just use PCM straight into the modulator - I think.
If there is a way to bypass that oversampling module, and get straight to the dac modulator, then it's undocumented.
If that modulator handles the re-sampling from 16/24bit into whatever multibit wordlength the chip converts at (?), then maybe the modulator also has its own noise-shaping/dithering algorithms?
However I'm not sure of the real consequences of running a DS DAC at say 44.1 or even 96 / 192 without
upsampling to say 352kHz. There must be some impact WRT the OOB noise.
That's why I asked the question WRT wide band plots of 1794 running 'zero OS'.
I'll just have to do all this myself in the usual zen - no BS fashion, this is what it does, this what IYeah, I know. But there was an email address offered in the video, for people to use, who have questions they want answered and cant find the answers online. The speaker even explained how ESS simply dont publish alot of information, but it is available.
understand, this is what I don't etc etc.
The video was most interesting WRT a) how modulators react to non steady signals, b) humans perceptionAbsolutely, the speaker also talked a number of times about all the things that cant be measured. And relying on those with trained ears, to judge whether their "theory" translates into a better sound. I liked that.
of music through various DAC / electronics.
Once you consider all these things, the bog simple R2R looks like a complete doddle to get right in comparison. :)Yeah. How big a hill do you want to climb?
Here's some more. The first section is on digital vol control versus analog.Might watch it tonight, if I cant sleep again. haha. ;)
The second half is on jitter. This is worth persevering with as it explains various clocking systems,
PLL's, ASRC's etc.
The other thing Sabre has is an inbuilt ASRC. This recalculates the samples based on a separate and independentThis makes me wonder what that fixed clock is, and if it inherently favours (works better) with certain data types to others?
clock at the DAC. So you can feed anything into Sabre and the OP will always be locked to a fixed clock.
These (ASRC's) are notoriously bad for sound. The Sabres is reportedly very good but it is still a question.
The secret is you can also disable this feature and run the chip synchronously.That should give you greater control, but I still have this irrepressible feeling that the OP wants a certain speed. So if you bypass it, if you are giving it what it wants/likes, all is fine. If you're feeding it a speed it doesn't like, it could compromise the performance of the OP step.
The other thing Sabre has is an inbuilt ASRC. This recalculates the samples based on a separate and independentThis makes me wonder what that fixed clock is, and if it inherently favours (works better) with certain data types to others?
clock at the DAC. So you can feed anything into Sabre and the OP will always be locked to a fixed clock.
These (ASRC's) are notoriously bad for sound. The Sabres is reportedly very good but it is still a question.QuoteThe secret is you can also disable this feature and run the chip synchronously.That should give you greater control, but I still have this irrepressible feeling that the OP wants a certain speed. So if you bypass it, if you are giving it what it wants/likes, all is fine. If you're feeding it a speed it doesn't like, it could compromise the performance of the OP step.
I dunno, it's speculation, but it's these types of questions that ESS would be able to answer.
I have a tendency to over simplify complex stuff. But for the Sabre, my starting point would be, Learn what that fixed clock speed is (you might already know?), then decide on the most appropriate source format to match the end clock, then optimise your middleman to suit the source/end points. So we have as simple as possible reading, transporting and processing chain.
Then get everything else around the dac chip optimised, power supplies, output electronics, etc.
Once you're hitting home runs. Then start to experiment with other source formats/reclocking the different sample rates.
Just thinking out loud.
No worries. My issue with hi-res solutions is they try to be all things to all digital formats, and as a result, somewhere in the chain a compromise is made.
I guess what I'm saying is, somewhere a frequency conversion has to happen, if the source material doesn't evenly translate to the end point (44.1 or 48 derivatives).
I missed it, and I don't exactly know what you're doing.
So you're feeding the modulator directly?
Do you know what the modulator is doing? I don't (on that chip) and am curious to know.
I suspect it is taking 16 or 24bit data, and converting it into 8bit? But it will be doing so much more,,,,,
have you been through the website oz? if not, i'd recommend it. doede seems to explain pretty much step by step his design process.Hey T, yep read it, and previously complimented Doede's work in documenting/sharing what he has done, you don't see this from any other Dac producer. I take my hat off to Doede for doing this.
http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_design.html (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_design.html)
not sure if it answers all the questions you have though.
The oversampling filter is upsampling IP data by 8 x. You are bypassing this and feeding directI would definitely like to read it, if you can find it easily?
into advanced segment modulator. So looks like the modulator can actually take sample rates up to
1.536MHz (8 x 192kHz). However looking at the distortion it works best around 350kHz (8 x 44.1).
At 192k the distortion gets worse.
FWIW if you want to know more about advanced segment operation there is a white paper somewhere.
The oversampling filter is upsampling IP data by 8 x. You are bypassing this and feeding directI would definitely like to read it, if you can find it easily?
into advanced segment modulator. So looks like the modulator can actually take sample rates up to
1.536MHz (8 x 192kHz). However looking at the distortion it works best around 350kHz (8 x 44.1).
At 192k the distortion gets worse.
FWIW if you want to know more about advanced segment operation there is a white paper somewhere.
What is driving my question?
If we feed the dddac-1794 a RBCD source (16-44.1), what happens within the chip when we bypass the oversampling step? What actually happens in that modulator, before the data is given to the Dac conversion step? It would be nice to know.
∆Σ Basic Facts
* ∆Σ works by oversampling, coarse quantization and noise-shaping
* High SNR is possible, if OSR and modulator order are high enough
* Low-order modulators (i.e.1st-order and 2nd-order) are susceptible to in-band tones and DC-input deadbands
* Single-bit modulators are inherently linear, but multi-bit modulators have much higher performance
o Single-bit modulators typically overload for inputs > –3dBFS
* ∆Σ modulators come in many flavors: single-bit/multi-bit, single-loop/multi-loop, lowpass/bandpass and real/quadrature (complex)
I'm not too sure either what it is doing with 16/44.1 signals, but had one guy post this re the subject:
I only have 44.1/16 music and now upsample it all to 176.4 (rather than 192 as 176.4 is a whole number multiplier of 44.1) using Secret Rabbit Code Level 0 (the highest quality) all performed in software within mpdPup to a WaveIO. It is excellent and gives a major boost to SQ without IMHO any unpleasant artifacts.
another guy's post:
I think that might have to wait. That I haven't switched off your DAC after a few hours listening and fired up my TDA1541A comfort blanket, says it all really. Don't quote me on this, and of course I am allowed to change my mind if I ever do implement a 1704 daughter-board, but my gut feeling is that 1704 will sound more "digital" than what you have now. There is a naturalness, a kind of organic nature, which reminds me more of old-school Burr Brown and Philips chips, more than anything else I have heard which has a sigma-delta badge, or even 1704 for that matter.
I will post some more later. But I had a most interesting time last night with mpd upsampling 44.1/16 CD rips to 176.4. (I don't have a great deal of >44.1k material, so was just playing with software upsampling redbook to 88.2 and 176.4 on the laptop.) Since then I have installed Triode's EDO plugin and kernel on my Logitech Touch (for USB DAC support and > 96k sample rate support) and currently have the DAC hooked up to that. The idea being that I could after editing a config file on the server, use sox or ssrc, to up/over sample on-the-fly. Only problem with that is that I can't go above 96k at the moment due to the Touch using wireless network. Doesn't have the bandwidth to support 176k sample rates. I'll hook up via ethernet later. Reading the John Swenson post, (linked above), I think he is onto something. If you are going to OS and DF, you can get better results doing it in software, not the filters built into the chips.
Unsure Z. Maybe the DF in the 1794 is poo and 'ruins' the sound. In in saying that, some people might actually prefer this 'ruined' sound? Maybe software DF works better than the built in hardware DF on the 1794? Is it similar story to why people bypass OS on the marantz cdp and prefer the sound when running NOS mode?Maybe the DF in the 1794 is poo and
What I personally take from it all is, try, experiment, have fun with it. all is possible... and there really never is an absolute right or wrong way to do things, as the final sound to each and every person is different and subjective. Right? :)
For reference, I have not been upsampling any files, just running them natively from foobar2000 to the usb module. 16/44.1 material sounds on the same level (but slightly diff) to the 120chip dddac1543mk2. the dddac1794 nos has slightly more open and refined sound. treble and bass definition/extension feels improved. The older dddac has bit more energy/rawness. But could be because was using poor power supply to power the older dddac while with the new dddac, i'm running decent linear 'audiophile' psu. Few too many factors at play to be able to give any concrete conclusions regarding the actual dac chip and sd vs r2r.
One thing I am quite confident in concluding is that the hi-res recordings (24/88, 24/96, 24/174 & 24/192) can (not all) have the ability to deliver noticeably more fidelity in the sound over standard 16/44.1 cd rips. The music seems to be less 'forced' out and is more open/effortless. Subtle details are easier identified. Bass and treble notes seem to have improved finer clarity and definition.
Overall, happy enough with the performance to just stick to the one dac. Paired with a nice valve preamp, makes a really exceptional hi-res supported digital solution. Probably best I have experienced in my system so far (subjective). All from a $400 dac kit :)
I still wanna know what exactly that freaking 1794 modulator is doing,,,, ??? :P :Pmodulating numbers (heavy duty accountant ) :P
I still wanna know what exactly that freaking 1794 modulator is doing,,,, ??? :P :P
Quote from: tuyen link=topic=842.msg12339#msg12339 date=Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@
Me too.. 15+ months and counting :-X
I think I figured out that the multibit DSD chips are doing multiple 1 bit sub streams in parallel, what I couldn't figure out is precisely how the sampling is handled, and how many sub streams are occurring. I'm assuming it is just divided down.
24/192k, divided into 4x6bit/48k (then into further 1bit sub streams). Something like that,,,, (16/44.1 is a real worry).
For the DSD1794, I'm guessing the 1bit incoming stream is converted something like....
1/2.8224m, into 6x1bit/470.4k sub streams, that are multiplexed.
These are purely guesses, based on loose reading. I could be way off in my thinking.
The DAC designer went to heroic lengths to run a SD DAC without digital filter, implying that was the problem.PC based up sampling is becoming quite common. I've read about a lot of Metrum Octave (nos dac) users doing the same thing.
The user adds the digital filter in his PC by upsampling to 176.4 and gets great results.
Quote from: tuyen link=topic=842.msg12339#msg12339 date=Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@
Me too.. 15+ months and counting :-X
Good news! Just yesterday I talked personally to Mr. Schick, and he promised me that you will receive your tonearm till the end of this year !!!
Quote from: tuyen link=topic=842.msg12339#msg12339 date=Oh, please tell Mr Schick that I am still waiting for my tonearm!!$#@
Me too.. 15+ months and counting :-X
Good news! Just yesterday I talked personally to Mr. Schick, and he promised me that you will receive your tonearm till the end of this year !!!
How was the meet, Reinhard?
Stefano has posted some photos and info on his blog. Looked really enjoyable. Who was the person from Australia?!
http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/eau-de-cologne-winter-2012.html (http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/eau-de-cologne-winter-2012.html)
thank you guys. Enjoyable read. Photos from Stefano really helped paint the scene :)
Anyways, back on topic of the nice new DDDAC 1794 NOS.
Guy in UK has added tube output stage to it. Seems to like it.
(http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/digital-line-level/317869d1355613138-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-ddac1794_bcf.jpg)
Having had the chance to fiddle with various output stages for the DDAC1794, I've decided to stick with the Broskie Cathode Follower. (I make no apologies for being a tube guy.)
One thing I have found is that there is a benefit to be had using the +/- output from the DAC. Although I have not tried a transformer, (don't have anything suitable to hand), I expect that the benefit would be the same. You could even consider the BCF to be a sort of poor mans "active" tube transformer, converting a balanced output to single ended, but step-down, 2:1. (So if you had 1.2V single-ended from using one of the outputs, you'll still have 1.2V SE using both of the outs via the BCF.) Aside from any on-paper arguments about CMRR and noise cancellation, the bottom line.... more focus and less grain combining the outputs, as opposed to just using one single ended output. (Of course, if you prefer opamps...... )
Although I was using a differential gain stage in front of the BCF, I've gone back to the 133R I/V resistors and am just using the BCF to obtain a SE output from balanced.
200V HT from Tom Christiansen 21st Century Maida Regulator to the tubes. Heater supply is regulated too. ECC88's, 220R cathode resistors.
50k grid stopper and feedback resistors. That's all there is to it really.
I also swapped my original "junk" 7812 reg that was powering the main DAC board for a Salas shunt. To be honest, I couldn't hear any difference. Then I tried an eBay reg module based on the LT1764, claiming 40uV of noise. Couldn't hear any difference with that either. So it has stayed in by virtue of being last into the circuit. (I've ordered another to power the WaveIO board.)
I'll put it all into a case over the Christmas holidays.
Well, I've actually been doing some reading on sigma delta dac design to understand what the modulator step does.
In a generic 1bit SD design, the modulator accepts multibit data streams, and converts them to 1bit. There is generally *always* a filter after the modulator, to remove the high frequency noise that is generated by the conversion to 1bit.
There is a trade off when performing the conversion, that needs to be understood. As the word length is reduced, the sample rate increases. This is pretty obvious, and I don't know why I didn't jump to that conclusion earlier.
I've read a little bit about why oversampling is generally used in all SD designs. Basically the oversampling pushes the data up further away from the inherent noise floor. I haven't read how that helps any downstream processing, I haven't got that far.
I believe the PCM1794 chip is a multibit SD design. I haven't gotten to that either, to understand what exactly the modulator does in a multibit design? I think there are multiple 1 bit streams, but I'm not sure.
Will order mine in the next week or two...thanks Reinhardt ;DI will hear tuyens this coming weekend
I will hear tuyens this coming weekendOn your system? I find it difficult to judge someone elses front end component, on their system, as I typically dont know their system well enough.
not on my system but on joness99 comparing it with 20k+ cd spinners and emm labs dac/transport comboI will hear tuyens this coming weekendOn your system? I find it difficult to judge someone elses front end component, on their system, as I typically dont know their system well enough.
Cool love to hear your impressions 8)Tuyen never showed he had family business to attend.
Bugger, oh well maybe next time Mario...I'm really keen on hearing what you think of it. My concern is that it might be a tad dry and not as rich or liquid as 1541/1543 chips with valve outputs and vintage chokes.Buy one and try it they dont cost much
Bugger, oh well maybe next time Mario...I'm really keen on hearing what you think of it. My concern is that it might be a tad dry and not as rich or liquid as 1541/1543 chips with valve outputs and vintage chokes.Buy one and try it they dont cost much
you can always add a valve output stage and tweak it until it looses digital signatureBugger, oh well maybe next time Mario...I'm really keen on hearing what you think of it. My concern is that it might be a tad dry and not as rich or liquid as 1541/1543 chips with valve outputs and vintage chokes.Buy one and try it they dont cost much
Yep will order it soon...keen to hear what it can do.
Some say eliminating the cause, is to do away with a pc source.Its good no cigar poor PRAT poor timbre and tonality i would pay $500 max long way to go to be a killer
Personally, I'm not sure about that.
Like many things, IMV brilliance is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration so getting anything just right takes a long time and dedication. I would not write off any dac in its earlyish gestation period, things will either click into place or not. :-X
V
Wowzers, thanks for taking time to share the experience Reinhard. Glad Jean is enjoying the 120chip tda1543 dac. I wanted to keep it, but he was willing to pay top $ for it and it then allowed me to progress with getting more boards for my current dddac1794.
in some ways I do find the older tda1543 dac a bit more 'fuller' and richer signature. How do you feel they differ?
Love to hear some of these great systems, Many times in the past in have had great expectations about supposedly great sounding and fabulous looking HIFI systems, only to find they sounded like HIFI..... not real, Horns in particular have there own sonic signature, none I have heard, seem to be able to completely alleviate these problems, its always there to some degree. They have some magnificent strengths but I guess nothing is perfect.
Hi Tuyen,
nice to see you here again. Well, your/Jean's 120 DAC is not working/running/sounding like mine. We will have to check this out, even when using my controlled power supply the sound was far from mindblowing. In addition we found out - and we do not know if this was the general "setting" - that USB was not at all implemented/connected... so, the prerequisite to generate a sublime sound were not given, at least from our point of view... if it is/was like that: a pity...
Agreed that everything adds some form of colouration/distortion to the signal (to varying degrees though right?).I can see he used audio grade caps, with the gold strip.
My friend likes the sound I think. It'll be painful to admit if he didn't like the sound after spending over 2k on the kit!
I can see he used audio grade caps, with the gold strip.Yeah, they look like Elna cerafines to me, picture is abit fuzzy, but I think they are elna's.
I lost interest and gave up on attempting to re-do 'properly' those cheaply made DIY low powered class a amps.
So the consensus over there is that Bernd's monster 12v power supply is the "one" in terms of powering both the older dddac1543 and also the new dddac1794 boards?
What about for the USB module on the new design that needs 5v? Were you guys still using Doede's power kit for that?
If Bernd's power supply with 1-stack and no sowters sounded better than Doede's 8-stack with sowters and his kit power supplies, did you guys try Bernd's power supply with Doede's 8 stack with sowters?! Surely that would be closer to sonic utopia? Or am I missing something?
I'm still young, I like trying new things :)
As your systems are all active (ie. amplifier per speaker driver), it's isn't a huge leap in terms of hardware required. But the possible sonic benefits of removing your current 'limited' electronic crossover and using either your computer or external DSP which has ability to time align each driver will surely bring improvements unimaginable. :)Applauding your post Tuyen. Very pleased to see the bolded bit. Whether that is dsp, or via analog active crossovers with time/phase adjustment, the point is time alignment is an important setup step. Definitely.
...and you know the difference between "believing" and "knowing"... those who know "nothing" always have to "believe"... and you will always have to make your own experiences... and this is not easy, this is work...
I tell you: with the step from 60 to 120 the result was more than 4, much much more than 4, the door to "real HiFi" just opened and magic appeared... simply from frequency response nothing changed (not even with measurements), but the sound suddenly came from another universe and the jitter became reduced in an totally unexpected way and amount...I believe, I believe.
but that result was only half of the rent, so to speak, that result was only to 50% generated by the DAC... it was not just simply "done" by having "that" DDDAC or another playing... the real sublime and magic results were only reached in combination with an absolute "overdose" on power supply....
I told already, this result belongs to those phenomenons which simply are unexplainable: 5 Volt are 5 Volt, and 12 Volt are 12 Volt, but generated and stabilized with different power supplies lead to such different sorts of result in sound, that you only can shake your head because of all those differences...
I beleive therefore I am. ;):) some say that is the secret to success. 8)
V
that's a pity... when you will get used to generate that what are perfect squares, then you might want to listen to them presumably exactly and not "modified" and "equalized"... you might have difficulties to amplify perfect squares with tubes... later on you can show me the results of your measurements...Lol perfect squares you might have trouble getting ss amps to sound like music
Lol perfect squares you might have trouble getting ss amps to sound like music
Hi Reinhard, can you please ask if he received my email? I sent him one the day you first posted about it, but no reply so far.
Stefan is really into it. I'm very curious when you guys get the compare it to one of Doede's stock 8 stack. Also with Bernd's power supply.
All those shunt regulators is a lot of messing around to get them in. Not to mention the cost Guido charges, it is not a cheap exercise!
This is true, I often imagine what an R2Rs will sound like, with them removed. I have eliminated many electrolytic capacitors, via running the R2R valve output stage. But they are an often necessary evil.
Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see.
Thoughts?
Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see.Fair point. There is soooo much raw goodness delivered by tape, it sounds great despite all the electrolytics.
Thoughts?
Yep, I see them. In post 205, it looks like a temporary wooden case was used.
Was the content simply moved into the new case 'As-Is' ?
Hi Chanh,
just to make sure, I installed the 3,3 volt shunts directly at the chip. There were no couple of 47 uF in the way.... Are you still planning to do listening tests with and without the 3,3 Volt shunts as only changed parameter? That would be the real honest feedback. Changing several things at the same time will never make 100% clear what really made the difference.
I am really looking forward to more people doing this test with only one change at a time. Last week I had independent feedback from Marcel for Switzerland, who removed the 3,3 volts ten shunts and replaced them with LDOs again. He is using the 8 volts at the analog side of the dac and is also pleased with this. I think there is no discussion about this improvement anymore...
don't get me wrong, this is not a discussion who is wrong or who is right. I just reported back what I heard and what some else has done. I know you spent a lot of money on the dac and specially on the tent shunts. for that reason it would make most sense to this in two steps, wouldn't you agree? if you install all in one step, you for sure will have a hell of a dac, but knowing what made the true difference is something I am sure also you are interested to know, not only me ;-)
look forward to your reports !
......Hi Terry,
You might well find that a single well optimised 1794 driving a transformer that is also optimised will sound better than a stack of 16 that are not optimized.
Hi Chanh,Hi Doede,
.......
look forward to your reports !
;D The DIY effect, if one is good then 10 must be great! errrrrrrr hmmm, well put Z, fine if you have all the measuring equipment but enthusiasm usually makes up the bulk of the design decisions for enthusiasts!I think you are contradicting yourself here Steve! You have heard my setup with 4-stacks and again with 8. According to you, there were noticeable improvement(s) "time, phase, and imaging". "A more of analog sounding" with 8 stacks. If I recalled correctly, you have also mentioned "use your ears not measurement". After-all, this whole audio hobby is so subjectively biased. What's a good/excellent sounding DAC? Will that excellent DAC be universal perceive as excellent to all audience/system setup(s)...., and engineering measurement? If so the ESS Sabre chip should be outstanding chip of all since on paper its measurement are absolutely second to none but yet some found it too clinical. :D
V
If so the ESS Sabre chip should be outstanding chip of all since on paper its measurement are absolutely second to none but yet some found it too clinical. :DHey Chanh, good post. I have never heard a dddac, and hope to one day. Do you have the super power supply?
.......I agreed with you here! Doede in his design allows room for parts/components improvement . This does not mean his design wasn't optimal, to my ears it sound great hence much love and funding were investmented. ;)
Hey Chanh, good post. ......Thanks Ozmillsy!
Hi Terry,
Lots of useful technical infor there! ;)
Btw, unsure if the design is optimal per individual standard, but I do use Sowters Transformer as output and could never go back without them.
After-all, this whole audio hobby is so subjectively biased. What's a good/excellent sounding DAC? Will that excellent DAC be universal perceive as excellent to all audience/system setup(s)...., and engineering measurement? If so the ESS Sabre chip should be outstanding chip of all since on paper its measurement are absolutely second to none but yet some found it too clinical. :D
I think DAC chip is only a third of the equation, implementation and quality parts are the rest of that magic formula! :)
My tweaked DDDAC surely will be powering by raw unregulated chokes input. The EI transformer(s) were from Vitavox! This Man has ears, trained/experience ears those are!
but I do... "against" transformers... against the transformers that we had here (of course we had not all, but three different versions from TriodeDick (which were quite impressive) and the ones from Doede (which were impressive as well)...
yes, impressive they were, but more or less detracting from the pure signal...
does it "sound" to you ? Does it sound to anybody else ? Or do you still get as a response that what they are generally claimed with as "anemic", "steril", "artifical", "digital".... when final "results" are judged... ????
well, to be honest - to me - exactly this must not be... it is the transformers and the (insufficient) power supply...
(you might want to read in addition my report from last year regarding that topic here):
http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/09/reinhards-new-essay-about-iso-usb-and.html
...and both in combination... which have such an influence on the sound that it is exactly no longer "analogue" and - I have to agree - with transformers (the ones that I know of) this way inevitably leads to such descriptions...
I know that I am nearly alone with my opinion, as is with "perfect squares", but - be aware - I am talking about results not theory... and yes, it's my own experiences (and Klaus's, and not only about the DDDACs but other DACs as well...) and one must not be an engineer to drive a car or an oenologist to taste a wine or an acoustic or electronic engineer... to be "qualified" to talk about results...
so, I will not focus on the DDDAC here, there is enough said, neither will I focus on the different kinds of power supplies, I talked already a lot about power supplies here and there... see for example post 225 here and on "ADC/DAC losses" post 29... (regarding power supply at the moment Stefan seems to be "leading" the field getting goose bumps while listening to his own - I have yet to hear this) nor on the shunt regulation, which is another "100.000 Deadheads can't go wrong"-phenomenon, but obviously has not yet checked out "scientifically" enough - but they are working on it, and I am waiting for the results...
...but time has come now to possibly help the one or other out of this "trap" in which some might have fallen (regarding that "clinical", "steril", "anemic" effect), let me tell you (again) about our results. We have tested the following in all kinds of combinations (not only side by side, but combined with everything possible (we even used only parts of Doede's own Sowter-monster-DDDAC in order to be able to experience in detail the effect(s) just from every single exchange), and we did it again and again, and with all time needed to really verify the results for ourselves:
and the quintessence of the results was: one 1794 DDDAC-deck with Bernd's controlled power supply was that much better than Doede's eight deck DAC with Sowters and his own power supplies and everything else switchable on it (or later on Jean's own PSU or the Mundorf PSU and others for that matter), that it must be heard to be believed. It is here where there is "no way back". Why ? Because you get digital that analogue that you hardly any longer care for the source...
not to belittle anyone else's performance(s), no, just the contrary, I encourage you to move on with your skills, but personally I definitely do not want to listen to the "sound" of those transformers that I know of... perhaps it is the imperfection of its squares causing pollution, keeping the origianl signal away from sublime purity...
with all respect and I ......Hi R,
Great stuff R! I will surely have another go with direct against transformer and report back. Perhaps some of you here can join?
getting "wet panties from copious, multiple ejaculations " (Stefano)
Great stuff R! I will surely have another go with direct against transformer and report back. Perhaps some of you here can join?
Chanh,Hi Terry,
What is your current setup WRT number of DACs, OP stage and IV resistor?
Also do you have any info on the Sowter transformer, it appears shrouded in mystery.
Ratio: 2.000
Turns: Prim 240 / Sec 480
Core: Gapped Mumetal, Package: Mumetal Can, Termination: Color coded leads
GENLOAD @20 Hz Sec. SC: 10 ohms Max
GENLOAD @20 Hz Sec. OC: 429 ohms Min
LEVEL for THD=0.5% @ 20 Hz: 10.2 dBu Min
Primary inductance (H): 3.4 H Min
Primary resistance: 1.6 ohms Max
Secondary resistance: 35 ohms Max
Here you go Chanh, a useful calculator for working out many parameters for power supplies, I like the LC calc, easy to use :)Cheers Steve! I have 2 x 50mH choke, there seems no value smaller than 1H.
http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amplifier-calculators/LC-ripple-filter/
V
Here you go Chanh, a useful calculator for working out many parameters for power supplies, I like the LC calc, easy to use :)
http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amplifier-calculators/LC-ripple-filter/
V
Cheers Steve! I have 2 x 50mH choke, there seems no value smaller than 1H.count me in with teagle
Are you keen for another visit once the DDDAC is up?
Its a sky scraper, Is it earthquake proof. Amazing.As current certified Structural Engineer and Owner, I can assure you that this structure is complied to all Specs, including applicable Australian Standards 2013. However, structural integrity is compromise should an event of liquidfaction ever existing. :)
Hi Chanh,
I wonder what the phase shift in the analogue output between pcb#1 and pcb#11. Has anyone tried just increasing the distance between each pcb rather than just increasing the number?
regards
AFAIK all the OP's are joined together, how would there be phase shift?
Z
hi zenelectro,
PCB designers concern themselves with the length of the input and output traces. When people stack the DAC pcbs they are increasing the lengths of the input and output paths. If you compare the signal paths of pcb#1 and pcb#11 it will be a few 100mm different. Significant? I am just asking. If you were doing one pcb you would never think of having the traces significantly different in length when paralleling devices.
regards
Hi Chanh,I do not think there is a phase shift. All are well regulated on the digital front with delay clocking circuitry on mainboard. On the analog size, surely attract RFI, hence there are filter caps here. I think the formula goes 4.7nf -10nf per deck pending distance/gap between DAC board. In this 11-decks high I will apply 0.068uf as filter to reduce hf down to approx 38khz.
I wonder what the phase shift in the analogue output between pcb#1 and pcb#11. Has anyone tried just increasing the distance between each pcb rather than just increasing the number?
regards
Wow, you just have to admire the dedication to wire up all those boards with different caps and regulators; it takes an act of dedication and that in my view shows character. Should be an interesting listen. When is it getting booked in Chanh?many thanks for the encouragement Vita! Surely I will not repeat this exercise at this magnitude ever again. LoL! Many hours and love have been invested, not to mention the funding. An invite will definitely coming once am able to get this up and running. Right now need sourcing some Neotech pure core copper wire to finalise this DAC. Order from Brisbane can take another week or so. Would be great if I could source 1.5m locally today or tomorrow then the gtg can be as close as next weekend with sufficient burn-in period. Any one in Perth has some pls let me know.
V
Got my DAC wired! Hopefully no smoke come out when the power turns on later tonight.
Gota get on with fatherhood duty.... :)
On the analog size, surely attract RFI, hence there are filter caps here. I think the formula goes 4.7nf -10nf per deck pending distance/gap between DAC board. In this 11-decks high I will apply 0.068uf as filter to reduce hf down to approx 38khz.Really enjoying the journey Chanh, thanks for sharing your pics. Is there any other way the RFI can be avoided, or is this just a by-product of the multi-board implementation?
Thinking out loud,,,,, the 1794 chips have balanced outputs IIRC. Is the output stage on these boards balanced (in part)? Is it relevant?
Appreciate the dac itself has single ended outputs.
There are in total 22x 1794 DAC chips in this configuration. Each DAC chip is serving mono hence fully balance capable.
Btw, this DAC can do upto 384khz @24bit. Not limiting to 96khz like you said. Doede?The chips are 24/192 native digital resolution. 192k digital format allows us to store up to a maximum of 96k analog (following nyquist), and this is what we hope to get on the analog output for 192k data (96k in/96k out).
As for hf filter, I can bring it down to 50khz without compromising the SQ, but really can we actually capable hearing beyond 32khz? Perhaps Zen or the designer can provide a more competent inputs? :)
Using a transformer on the OP is a great idea, but optimizing the transformer to suit the particular DAC is the trick.I'm starting to think I should have pursued the transformer upgrade (you recommended) to my 1794 player, that must have been what 3 years ago we were talking about it? Sometimes it takes me awhile to cotton on. ;D 8) Bigger fish to fry now.
I posted more of this on diy, and if you do not mind I share with you here too?
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/5dfb55fa6965262b1f3dd304fc313a38.jpg)
All up..., Worths every minute spent and the associate effort/funding! ;)
If you what a good modern one, Jim makes great sounding transformers and as a bonus his transformers are cheap, he is the man I use. Alkay tranformers, phone 91507489, Sydney
If you can tell us what wire to use and some other tips to build great sounding Alkay transformers like yours that would be great Steve.Can you make me a couple too. ;D
well, from what I read this might perhaps be of generel interest, that means might possibly (?) be used in other DACs as well... the newest results from James, whose DDDAC I had the pleasure to listen to already in April this year, but not yet with these ameliorations...Hi R,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-340.html
No. 3398
"Tonight I finally got my Acko s03 reclocker board working in between the rPi and the DDDAC. Wow.... I thought this sounded good before, but it's just stepped it up another level. This sounds so real and captivating now. I love it!"
(http://i62.tinypic.com/of3pkh.jpg)
and nige2000 added:
"just shows up the imperfections in the Pi i2s..."
as always, devil is in all details...
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2urry3k.jpg)You need to share more secrets with chan regarding his ddac is lacking what others are hearing something is very wrong here chans dac is very good but hey not natural
...you might want to read the ongoing story regarding smoothdancer's DDDAC1794 for yourself.. I like to quote. or better go here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-368.html
#3678
"It's been 3 weeks since my DDDAC was build and I have been playing a lot theese last days. I have to say that this dac is very good. As someone maybe remember I promised a shootout against my tweaked Buffalo IIIse dual mono.
1. "Digitalis" : dddac is more analog sounding, Buffalo have a small "edge" in direct comparason. This is very important for me as I play music for several ours daily.
The dddac is fantastic here. The music flow with ease and naturalnes in a way I never heard
before from a digital product, bravo.
2. Voices: Dddac is so natural, and again, no digital edge here. Buffalo have a very clear midrange, but the sound from dddac feels more realistic. Easier to believe what you hear.
3. Bass: After replacing the stock trannies with 250va on 12v, and 200va on 5v, ddac have the same authoroty at the lower end. Definition is very close race here.
4. Resolution: dddac seems to dig even deeper into the recording than Buffalo.
5. Musicality: dddac grab my attention from the first tone and don't let go. Buffalo does the same, BUT after a while my thoughts starts to think about other things than music.
Konklusion: well, no conclusion for now, and I will explain why.
Exa u2i vs, WaveIo : Buffalo use Exa, and as you know, dddac use WaveIo.
I had very hard to believe that dddac should be so much better than Buffalo. So i installed Exa in dddac and did an direct comparason against WaveIo.
Wow, I must say I am very surprised,,, whit Exa in use, dddac sounds almost as Buffalo. The digital edge and several things that was related to Buffalo's sound came back in dddac.
Switcing over to WaveIo, and everything was good again.
WaveIo is superb sounding compared to Exa. ( in my setup ) but I have seen other also have the same experience..."
well, when I read this I am very happy with the progressive results that smoothdancer has reached - and I have to admit that he now belongs to those who are - regarding the DDDAC - ahead of me (at the moment I do have no tweaks at all, just the standard)...
...and if you read him carefully you might see confirmed all the things that I told you already months and even years now ago with already "lesser" input...
and it all really shines especially with his new power supplies...
my congratulations...
Hey Kajak12,
My DAC might not be world best, however, one thing for certain it isn't as rolled top/bottom and only midrange emphases like your preference DAC taste!
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;DYeah, his system was crap so he sold it, I wonder how long it would take for him to get rid of it... ::)
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!
Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
I have listened to the KillerDAC many, many times and I must say that it is a very nice and even exceptional DAC, and most importantly sounds (very) musical.I never care about the measurement, I did not even ask for it ever since I bought the KillerDAC in 2009 from Steve. It just happened that since many people subjectively say that the KillerDAC is rolled off, Rawl99 disproves it by presenting the actual measurements of the KillerDAC. I wish this would stop the rolled-off comment but as vitavoxdude pointed out, many are seduced by false in your face detail and zingy treble which people subjectively assume to be more extended. So, yeah choose our own poison ;)
To my ears, I am not sure why people would think that it is not musical, and sadly people can get lost in measurements which as we all know does not usually describe the musicality of a component :)
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;DThe most important starting point with any quality system is the front end, and that front end must have one attribute above all..... glorious midrange splendour....It's 70 Precent of the music and ultimately what matters. That is what the killerdac has in spades, but like all NOS dacs they suffer in the frequency extremes, it's the nature of the beast. So I say start with what matters most, and use some real skill to nullify these problems, for example with my DAC I use a superb TDA1541A S2 this particular chip has excellent extension. With my speakers I purposely allowed extra energy in the high frequency's to atone for the extension roll off. Tune the whole system accordingly because without that brilliant midrange you will not have musical satisfaction. Marios DAC is a high bred of old parts, mostly not used anymore, the newer DACs have good extension, Ultimately i have no doubt there are many dacs with better extension, but the date no digital device I have heard other than a killerdac really makes music.
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!
Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
... So I say start with what matters most, and use some real skill to nullify these problems, for example with my DAC I use a superb TDA1541A S2 this particular chip has excellent extension. With my speakers I purposely allowed extra energy in the high frequency's to atone for the extension roll off. Tune the whole system accordingly because without that brilliant midrange you will not have musical satisfaction. Marios DAC is a high bred of old parts, mostly not used anymore, the newer DACs have good extension, Ultimately i have no doubt there are many dacs with better extension, but to date no digital device I have heard other than a killerdac really makes music.@stevenvalve, so your audio system has been tuned with extra high frequency energy and is very fast... that is interesting!
@stevenvalve, so your audio system has been tuned with extra high frequency energy and is very fast... that is interesting!Ping, go and listen to a unamplified small ensemble playing classical music..... its mainly all midrange. Frequency extension is an artificial audiophiles dream
Yes, the midrange is important although for some it can be a midrange preference, for others it can be a midrange & bass preference, and for others it can be midrange & treble preference... it is nice to have it all, though, while maintaining musicality :)
... so gentle, warm, natural, flowing, organic, colourful, even beautiful, Nothing is in your face, no raging treble, no attacking detail ... you stop analysing, lay back in the chair, and get lost in the splendour.stevenvalve, these characteristics need to be part of the musical payback experience, don't they... all good :)
But if your a head bagger it does not really matter.
... so gentle, warm, natural, flowing, organic, colourful, even beautiful, Nothing is in your face, no raging treble, no attacking detail ... you stop analysing, lay back in the chair, and get lost in the splendour.stevenvalve, it is a shame, isn't it :) The KillerDAC is a very nice and musical DAC, to my ears :)
... Audio Manufactures need change to sell you and me there latest and greatest, they claim low distortion, super high and low extension, incredible hyper resolution and detail firing at your brain, low bass rattling your windows. Its a shame for them that these attributes don't exist in the form they are offering. But if your a head banger it does not really matter.
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;DYOU HAVE NEVER HEARD MY SETUP WITH MY POWER AMP!!!! ONLY WITH YOUR AMP AND PRE AND VITAVOX AMP AND FRANKS PRE..........
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!
Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;DMORE EXTENDED DYNAMIC SOURCE MATERIAL WHEN IT COMES TO TIN PAN ALLEY YOU ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO MY SYSTEM QUESTION I ASK IS HOW CAN ONE MAKE A FORMED OPINION WITHOUT HAVING THE GOODS????????????????
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!
Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
First and for most, there is no SOTA DAC or SOTA audio setup! :P :P :P yep even your KDAC! If it really was a KillerDAC, why did Mario get rid of it and shortchanged his sentimental values? ;Di SOLD MY DAC AND MY (((SYSTEM))) TO GET OUT OF AUDIO WHEN I RETURN I HOPE DDDAC LIKE YOU HAVE MATCHES IT JUST TO START FAR FROM IT
Fyi, I listened to his ex-setup on four occasions. Mario's ex-KDAC setup was very easy on the ears and much engaging on selected Genre. Cello and Acoustic guitar sounded fantastic. Great imaging, transparency and very engaging (did I say that already?). Nonetheless, it performed less than satisfactory for a more extended dynamic source/materials. Micro-dynamic weren't there....., no tight, articulate impact bass.
Clearly, there is no one size fits all!
Just in case you haven't noticed, Mario and I are always pulling jokes on one another. My observations on his EX-setup will be dismissed by him and disagreed by others' KDAC users. Similarly, his assessments on others' setup might not be aglined by many! Isn't this all subjective anyway?
Haha...!i was being polite as for sota amp being faulty more to do with faulty el34 and me using 5 watt bias resistors didn't help (on the beach owns it now) he has no problems but he does own 30k plus of audio research which he needs to sell.
There is no need for fouls language and the shouting Mario. Cool down! I thought You would be pleased that I just happened to be influenced by you from telling the truth. Why it is a norm for you to honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? What have I said were wrong or untruthful?
Yes, you kept saying your setup is SOTA and it's unfortunately I could never able to hear it simply because your SOTA Amps was kept getting faulty! I am sure when it was working, your setup was a SOTA. However, I can't just falsely deviate my realistic experience. Sorry!
My Sincere appologies for this sidetrack. I think I better shut up from here!
Haha...!honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? ask them what they think chan when they heard it??????????
There is no need for fouls language and the shouting Mario. Cool down! I thought You would be pleased that I just happened to be influenced by you from telling the truth. Why it is a norm for you to honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? What have I said were wrong or untruthful?
Yes, you kept saying your setup is SOTA and it's unfortunately I could never able to hear it simply because your SOTA Amps was kept getting faulty! I am sure when it was working, your setup was a SOTA. However, I can't just falsely deviate my realistic experience. Sorry!
My Sincere appologies for this sidetrack. I think I better shut up from here!
Haha...!NEVER SHUT UP BRING IT ON I SAY
There is no need for fouls language and the shouting Mario. Cool down! I thought You would be pleased that I just happened to be influenced by you from telling the truth. Why it is a norm for you to honestly critic others but is wrongful for others are to provide their realistic/honesty feedbacks wrt yours? What have I said were wrong or untruthful?
Yes, you kept saying your setup is SOTA and it's unfortunately I could never able to hear it simply because your SOTA Amps was kept getting faulty! I am sure when it was working, your setup was a SOTA. However, I can't just falsely deviate my realistic experience. Sorry!
My Sincere appologies for this sidetrack. I think I better shut up from here!
i was being polite as for sota amp being faulty more to do with faulty el34 and me using 5 watt bias resistors didn't help (on the beach owns it now) he has no problems but he does own 30k plus of audio research which he needs to sell.Well the KillerDAC is a very nice and musical DAC, to my ears, and would appear to be very well priced, considering the price of the audio research :)
Well the KillerDAC is a very nice and musical DAC, to my ears, and would appear to be very well priced, considering the price of the audio research :)I would listen less then 2 hrs a week due to entertaining a 4 year old,some weeks never really turned it on,so i decided to sell it and build another system down the track that uses set amp and he speakers.
Why did you sell it and why did you want to get out of audio?
Hopefully the DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192 will eventually sound good, also :)
Hi Reinhard,
Happy New Year to you !
I'm not sure the thunder analogy is the best one, because in nature there are many different types of thunder sounds.
If reproducing thunder, how do you really know which type you are trying to reproduce?
Having meaningful references you consistently refer back to, are an important baseline when assessing changes to reproduction systems, IMHO.
I do agree that good sounding bass is an important foundation. I am yet to hit true bass nirvana on any system i have had. For me its not just about extension.
we could discuss - and listen to of course - to "different" types of thunder sounds in nature and reproduction when the general platform is given to be able to reproduce such a thunder in general at all... right...if you mean; you recorded a thunderstorm, you heard for yourself the live thunder at the time it was recorded, you have a vivid memory of it, and then you used this recording to playback and baseline your reproduction system against your own memory of the actual event - if that is what you meant, then perhaps yes, this could be done.
... we could discuss - and listen to of course - to "different" types of thunder sounds in nature and reproduction when the general platform is given to be able to reproduce such a thunder in general at all... right...Reinhard, very, very impressive looking horns, wow :)
not to produce redundant infos you might want to read the following over at Stefano's where I have written exactly about that phenomenon some years ago - and which was/is the result of thirty years research in our bass horn development: http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html (http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2009/12/goto-from-japan-drivers-and-horns.html)
Hi Steve,
I for one applaud and encourage Chanh for his determination efforts and exploits on his journey to where he feels is good for him, others may remark negatively all they like, its down to personal preferences and its not a pissing competition where coming second is an issue.
Reinhard, very, very impressive looking horns, wow :)
Reinhard, is Stefano in Japan. I thought that he was in Italy!, although your blog indicates Germany :)
... Yes don't stop in your development, the DAC has promise, it just needs tinkering, patience and time/money to get it to where it will match the Conrad Johnson and Carver... /font]vitavoxdude, what do you find beneficial with the Conrad Johnson and Carver over the KDAC :)
vitavoxdude, what do you find beneficial with the Conrad Johnson and Carver over the KDAC
Reinhard, what are your thoughts of Chanh's DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192 :)
Hi R,
Happy to send my version of DDDAC over for your gtg once I am able to house it proper. Who knows I might bring myself there too? ;)
Btw, Pin20 CCS and few other things I need finalised. Should be able to get tweaked raw unregulated PS up and running with 4-poles AG caps soon.
Chanh
Reinhard, is Jean still using the 120chip DDDAC1543MK2 I sold to him?
How do you personally find your DDDAC1543MK2 differs sonic-wise to the newer DDDAC1794 NOS design?
I currently have a basic $500 turntable setup now (after down grading from a ~$7000 setup) and am actually more content than ever!
Reinhard, i dont think i have come across a more passionate audio lover. Your adventures make for great reading !!I second that, great reading and what I like..... passion.
Big names, big gear, big deal. Is this stuff really relevant to our real world situations? I think not. It's nice to think full horn WE systems and whatever but reality is a different place for most of us. I'm pretty sure that most guys on this forum are not millionaires and we are definitely not checked pants european wankers. You wanna keep sprouting this dream, fine go ahead. I'm sick of seeing this drivel and hearing this bullsh!t so Bye Bye from this thread.hmmm..! Puzzling to why you are so personally offended? Nothing R was saying are offensive. If any he is just a passionate and blindly in love with DDDAC technology! There is no need getting frustrated...! ;)
Hi R,
At some points, we must accessed the logic of one's opinionated rather eagerly convinced as reader. There is distinctly different between passionate vs blindly felt in love. For once, none of these guys at diy DDDAC thread have taken DDDAC beyond where I have previosly had in every possible way. Therefore claiming what Stijn has had is never realistic. ;)
Fyi, I have done every possible tweaks there are to this DDDAC. Other than the CCS board tweak, where my gut feels not worth doing, but also I reaccessed the logical improvement of this if any? Hence never bother with it.
Hope not to offend anyone here, including you(R)! ;)
Chanh
...as it happens I am able now to invite you to come to Paris on June 5-6,7 to a DDDAC shootout on the best systems that Paris has to offer (different WE-systems 15a, 13, 16... and others, under the guidance of Jean Hiraga, and Doede Douma will come as well, fitting everything together...Hi R,
on SNCF flight Paris - Melbourne and back at the moment is 920 €... I know money is always short, so I will give you 100 € as a contribution if you manage to come...
how about that ??? please tell me....
you know much better than me where to get the right things for DIY... but I don't know, personally I am not a plastic fan (neither in HiFi nor in the kitchen), but love "solid" connections... so I prefer Swiss LEMO... you might want to have a look here:very nice connectors ;) ;)
http://www.lemo.com/en/products
my type is FFA.4S
(http://i61.tinypic.com/15ehkas.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/5arg34.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/29p6qmb.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/1i2142.jpg)
and the Lemo-connection mounted:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/335czl3.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/140an1x.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/vvnus.jpg)
...both parts connected look like this... to be understood: this is for both the 12 Volt and the 5 Volt finely separated in one connection :
(http://i61.tinypic.com/aktz00.jpg)
http://www.lemo.com/en/products
my type is FFA.4S
Dear Hifi-friends,Where is MR.Miyagi?
just returned from “the” HiFi-trip through Japan from north to south and east to west with André Klein (you know the DIYer from Metz in France with the self-built WE15 system), Dr. Jean-Laurent Veys (the owner of the Lencoheaven-site and great EMT and vinyl-lover), and of course our unique leader and infinitely inspirational source: Jean Hiraga who indeed absolutely perfectly planned, organized and executed our marathon-trip with some twenty extraordinary systems from the last century, including nearly every brand that ever has been written about and that mostly only can be read about but not listened to…
Jean Hiraga opened exactly those doors for us in Japan which presumably for normal HiFi-visitors ever will remain closed. For half a century Jean is a very well known and highly respected man over there, and those HiFi-aficionados, that we visited, gladly had their magazines and books from Jean, dating back till the 1960ies, signed by him with autographs…
Before reporting in detail – I do not know if this is the right place, so you might better put it elsewhere - I have to come back on my own regarding jet-lag… you understand…
For the moment just one picture which I got from Mr. Katou (personally I made more than 2.000), to get you inspired and your mouth watering… there is more to come…
(http://i58.tinypic.com/a1pg01.jpg)
Top: James Wallbridge (you may remember the australian astro-physician who has been already here with us at Cologne, becoming a professor in Japan), André Klein, me, Dr. Jean Veys, mid-range: Jean Hiraga, active musicians and singers of which Mr. Katou has made recordings on CDs), low: two Goto-system owners, Shinichi Tanaka from Goto-society (who planned and executed for Mr. Katou the installation of the whole Goto-system in the back), Toshihisa Katou (owner of the system and professional recording engineer chasing for “the” sound - like me), his wife, and another Goto-system owner)
Anyway: the whole trip was “the” HiFi-lesson in my life…
rhlauranna, FYI you should hang the calligraphy the other way around, because the words are upside down!
oh I see, all the pictures are gone.... what a pity! perhaps I can reconstruct the one or other, but this will take quite some time...WoW i almost forgot. amazing.
for the moment, to bring back to memory what it is all about here a picture from 2012 when Shinichi Tanaka from Goto Society had visited us and didn't leave the focus for more than an hour or so...
on the other hand I had a visit from Japan, form Kasonobu Kobayashi... you might remember the guy with the one (running) of three world wide known owners of Euronor/Siemens/Klangfilm (all originals). he visited Germany last year and some highest end systems...
meanwhile has published an article of some german systems (Klangfilm and Goto, and Klaus's and mine) in Stereo Sound 2010, Tube & Analog, Nr. 95, pages 173-182
unfortunately I am not allowed to put copies and/or pictures on the net... and unfortunately the whole text is in japanes... so even I do not understand a single word...
but Kasanobu has announed that he will make a translation into english for us when he has got time...
if that is o.k., then when I will have gotten it I surely will put in on here...