The KillerDAC Audio forum
General HIFI => Other DACs => Topic started by: springcreek on February 12, 2013, 07:58:27 AM
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Hi all
I caught up with Hedalfa in Canberra city yesterday at lunch and he was bringing back a couple of CDs. Given we were in close proximity to a local hifi dealer we thought we might as well pop in and listen to a couple of test tracks from the CDs. The system generously setup for us composed of Macintoh CD player, Bryston BDA-1 DAC, Bryston pre and power amps, latest Quad speakers (2905 I think) and Nordost cabling. First we played a couple of Johnny Cash songs from his American recordings V. Well it wasn't horrible and wasn't harsh, though the tone was bleached, timbre was off, there was no depth, the voice was fairly small and had moved up into his upper chest which made him sound like a much younger man. The track "If you could read my mind" was recorded about a week before he passed and you can hear the frailty in his voice...he is clearly dying. With this combo the emotion, wetness and feeling of Johnny on his last legs was almost completely absent.
Next up was Steven's MF gold version of Peter Seeger. Well let’s just say Pete was not in the room...not sure he was even in the street...must have been out to lunch. There is so much emotion and changes in pitch in "Sometimes I feel like a motherless child", a stunning song. To be fair the Bryston/Quad combo did track some of the changes in pitch and emotion in his voice...but only some...he may not have the most beautiful voice but he certainly is skilful at using it. The timbre of his guitar sounded off as well, just as it did with Johnny.
In all fairness the combo hadn’t been running for a long time before we popped in. For $50-$60K I would at least want a system to get the basics like timbre reasonably right. I didn't expect the richness, naturalness and wetness of great valves...but on the other hand it wasn't harsh and brutally hard like I lot of solid state. You pay your $$ and make your choice.
Always good to keep listening 8)
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"Sometimes I feel like a motherless child" by Pete Seeger = system wrecker pain and frustration.
He Heh, makes you feel just like the song.
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Yep it's a pretty hard test 8) ...but that's not a cheap system and that's their big rig...so you do expect decent sound. A poor understanding of system synergy and how to tune a system...pretty common though. Thin sounding panels...thin bleached solid state, with new dac chips and Nordost cabling...you are never going to get anything but bleak out of that :o
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Yep it's a pretty hard test 8) ...but that's not a cheap system and that's their big rig...so you do expect decent sound. A poor understanding of system synergy and how to tune a system...pretty common though. Thins sound panels...thin bleached solid state, with new dac chips and Nordost cabling...you are never going to get anything but bleak out of that :o
Where the electrostatics pulled well into the room? I remember walking into one dealers where they were only 200mm from the back wall, hardly surprising they did not sell many.
V
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Yep it's a pretty hard test 8) ...but that's not a cheap system and that's their big rig...so you do expect decent sound. A poor understanding of system synergy and how to tune a system...pretty common though. Thins sound panels...thin bleached solid state, with new dac chips and Nordost cabling...you are never going to get anything but bleak out of that :o
Where the electrostatics pulled well into the room? I remember walking into one dealers where they were only 200mm from the back wall, hardly surprising they did not sell many.
V
A big NO they were close to the wall!!!!!
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Yep it's a pretty hard test 8) ...but that's not a cheap system and that's their big rig...so you do expect decent sound. A poor understanding of system synergy and how to tune a system...pretty common though. Thins sound panels...thin bleached solid state, with new dac chips and Nordost cabling...you are never going to get anything but bleak out of that :o
Where the electrostatics pulled well into the room? I remember walking into one dealers where they were only 200mm from the back wall, hardly surprising they did not sell many.
V
A big NO they were closed to the wall!!!!!
So the dealer has no idea how to demo quad electrostatics :o :o
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Yep it's a pretty hard test 8) ...but that's not a cheap system and that's their big rig...so you do expect decent sound. A poor understanding of system synergy and how to tune a system...pretty common though. Thins sound panels...thin bleached solid state, with new dac chips and Nordost cabling...you are never going to get anything but bleak out of that :o
Where the electrostatics pulled well into the room? I remember walking into one dealers where they were only 200mm from the back wall, hardly surprising they did not sell many.
V
A big NO they were closed to the wall!!!!!
Then they should loose the agency as they are clearly not portraying the speakers in their correct setting. They should be approximately 1/3rd into the room from the back wall, sides close but not touching the side walls angled in towards the listner; failure to do this and they sound closed in, thin and lacking in tone-ality, vibrancy and air. Tut tut, simply not good enough and possibly not a great synergy going on between the speakers and electronics / cables etc. Peter Walker would tun in his grave!
V
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Tragic, unfortunately even something good can :(be monkeyed :o with) I dont recall that there was much toe in applied either :-[
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"Sometimes I feel like a motherless child" by Pete Seeger = system wrecker pain and frustration.
He Heh, makes you feel just like the song.
Spot on, you might be feelin great about your system and speakers till you put this on :( then reality whacks you between the ears.
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Been there for sure >:(
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Yea -Bryston - AKA - Dryston.
The guy that got me onto the Arion amps did a comparison of the Arions to the top of the line Bryston amps with the Bryston dealer. It MURDERED the Bryston.
Thanks
Bill
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Unfortunately yes the system was poorly setup, no toe in at all and close to the front wall. The dealer did mention it wasn't optimal placement, but he was only describing the soundstage...not the tonality or timbre. He thought it sounded pretty good. :o
But beyond placement, as well all know you can't just buy expensive products and plonk them down and expect magic...the system synergy here was really off. There was nothing in the system to bring richness, weight, beauty or naturalness...combining products that emphasize thinness and perceived detail gets you....exactly what we heard. :(
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He thought it sounded pretty good. :o
I'd buy your Miniwatt instead in a heartbeat Andy!
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He thought it sounded pretty good. :o
I'd buy your Miniwatt instead in a heartbeat Andy!
Ha, yes it is simply on another planet (at least on the Triaxiom's)...you can't beat good valves in a simple circuit...rather have a leak (amp not the other kind :P) and a 50 amp with RCA globes like yours William 8)
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Next up was Steven's MF gold version of Peter Seeger. Well let’s just say Pete was not in the room...not sure he was even in the street...must have been out to lunch. There is so much emotion and changes in pitch in "Sometimes I feel like a motherless child", a stunning song.
OK i understand people that like this song i can't stand it why you might ask its for old farts :P
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Let us know some new songs (the high quality recording ones) then Mario...and please don't say Dark Side of the Moon, I hadn't been born yet when it was released! :P
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I remember the Bryston room at the Sydney audio show was terrible. It was almost painful to be in there. They were playing their BDP1 24 bit player and I had really expected much more.
My Bryston BCD1 used as a transport was very recently swapped out with the Wadia and it wont ever be hooked up to the Killer again. As a stand alone player I guess its OK as a spare but it is a total waste of talent and NOS valve time to hook it up to the Killer. I also own the Bryston BDA1 DAC which I sent up to Bill a while back to listen to and it is now in my retail shop playing uncompressed AIFF files from a macmini and it does a fine job at that. Its earning its keep there nicely.
I stupidly bought both Bryston components on the back of countless amazing Stereophile reviews and gushing forums. I don't take reviews seriously anymore and I certainly wouldn't buy anything based on them or any mainstream forum of the blind leading the blind. I've had a few expensive lessons like that involving both Bryston and Arcam gear. Oh well we live and learn.
Better those lessons being behind me than in front of me thats for sure.
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Yeah reviews, I feel for you there. Who to trust, well yourself is a good place to start. Commertial pressures constanly re invent the wheel to be whiter than white with 0.0005% distortion but it sounds like crap. The secret I have found is can you listen to it all day and still want to play more. Very few systems get past a couple of hours in a sober state let alone 12 or more hours. Systems which pull off this trick are the most natural sounding like electrostatics with valves, the rest are mere pretenders designed to whack you in the face with their superiority, I don't thinks so (IMV).
Ask Steve G and other experianced audio people. They may say something similar.
V ;)
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Yeah reviews, I feel for you there. Who to trust, well yourself is a good place to start. Commertial pressures constanly re invent the wheel to be whiter than white with 0.0005% distortion but it sounds like crap. The secret I have found is can you listen to it all day and still want to play more. Very few systems get past a couple of hours in a sober state let alone 12 or more hours. Systems which pull off this trick are the most natural sounding like electrostatics with valves, the rest are mere pretenders designed to whack you in the face with their superiority, I don't thinks so (IMV).
Ask Steve G and other experianced audio people. They may say something similar.
V ;)
I know it may seem like an odd thing to say, but I have noticed another characteristic of a really fine system is it sounds good even before you enter the room. If youre not reacting to sound stage and impressed by the look of the system but it grabs you from afar it could be beguiling.....My two cents.......
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Commertial pressures constanly re invent the wheel to be whiter than white with 0.0005% distortion but it sounds like crap. The secret I have found is can you listen to it all day and still want to play more.
So so true, (as i work) I find i can listen all day and then at times sit in front of the weapon, Its like a drug that lures me to that listening chair, when its time turn it off, (2am) well its like pulling teeth. That certainly is the sign that something is right with the sound. That is what a Killer Dac and my system is all about. What do specs really mean, can they measure that. In the world of reproduced music, what more can you ask for.
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Yeah reviews, I feel for you there. Who to trust, well yourself is a good place to start. Commertial pressures constanly re invent the wheel to be whiter than white with 0.0005% distortion but it sounds like crap. The secret I have found is can you listen to it all day and still want to play more. Very few systems get past a couple of hours in a sober state let alone 12 or more hours. Systems which pull off this trick are the most natural sounding like electrostatics with valves, the rest are mere pretenders designed to whack you in the face with their superiority, I don't thinks so (IMV).
Ask Steve G and other experianced audio people. They may say something similar.
V ;)
I know it may seem like an odd thing to say, but I have noticed another characteristic of a really fine system is it sounds good even before you enter the room. If youre not reacting to sound stage and impressed by the look of the system but it grabs you from afar it could be beguiling.....My two cents.......
Right on the money...that's when I know that the tone, timbre and dynamics are right...
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Commertial pressures constanly re invent the wheel to be whiter than white with 0.0005% distortion but it sounds like crap. The secret I have found is can you listen to it all day and still want to play more.
So so true, (as i work) I find i can listen all day and then at times sit in front of the weapon, Its like a drug that lures me to that listening chair, when its time turn it off, (2am) well its like pulling teeth. That certainly is the sign that something is right with the sound. That is what a Killer Dac and my system is all about. What do specs really mean, can they measure that. In the world of reproduced music, what more can you ask for.
These systems are few and far between...
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Yeah reviews, I feel for you there. Who to trust, well yourself is a good place to start. Commertial pressures constanly re invent the wheel to be whiter than white with 0.0005% distortion but it sounds like crap. The secret I have found is can you listen to it all day and still want to play more. Very few systems get past a couple of hours in a sober state let alone 12 or more hours. Systems which pull off this trick are the most natural sounding like electrostatics with valves, the rest are mere pretenders designed to whack you in the face with their superiority, I don't thinks so (IMV).
Ask Steve G and other experianced audio people. They may say something similar.
V ;)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mracoustat/page2/ making of some stats :o
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The secret I have found is can you listen to it all day and still want to play more. So so true, (as i work)
Work???? changing some tubes or tapes is called work?????? lol
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"e author=Jehuty link=topic=948.msg13148#msg13148 date=1360755633]
Let us know some new songs (the high quality recording ones) then Mario...and please don't say Dark Side of the Moon, I hadn't been born yet when it was released! :P
[/quote]"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNHM4NXSKmI :-* :-*
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CD-NEW-VOL-3-AMERICAN-FAVORITE-BALLADS-SEEGER-PETE-/370676213844?pt=AU_Audio_CDs&hash=item564e062854
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???