Author Topic: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2  (Read 23295 times)

Offline ozmillsy

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DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« on: September 02, 2010, 07:04:19 PM »
The plan for my second set of interconnects, going abit more upmarket with this set. 

* Eichmann plugs (copper type)
* Solid Core copper wires with doubleshielding x 3, braided (1 +'ive, 1 -'ive, 1 drain)
* WBT 4% Silver solder
* Aluminium (foil), for additional shielding.  Undecided, really not necessary, with the drain wire?
* Heatshrink, for additional insulation.  Undecided about this. 
* Mesh cover, to glitz it up.  It's some Nylon/Copper based mesh, purely cosmetic.
* Length- 2m.

Feedback, comments, suggestions welcome.   
.....


It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 07:06:05 PM »
Quote from: kajak12
that is a fancy mesh oz.regarding shielding try with and without.(my ic dont have shielding)
the plugs are good i use them aswell.
try diffrent sizes of copper conductors like 0.4mm.
you can pick up vintage copper wire with cotton dialectric of ebay


Quote from: Upfront
Mate these are going to be very nice! Can't wait to hear what you think of them when your done.
Personally I wouldn't worry about the aluminum foil. I think the braid will be plenty good enough for EMI etc..
What are you using for copper wire? 1mm solid core from buntings or something fancy?
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Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 07:06:41 PM »
Quote from: Upfront
What are you using for copper wire? 1mm solid core from buntings or something fancy?

I'm trying the double insulated Bunnings copper wire,  added a pic of the wire into the opening post.    The stuff I used last time was a single layer insulation.   Would it make a difference,  I dunno?   I'm hoping the better connectors will.    

I figure I can always unsolder the connectors, and use different wire later,  if they dont perform any better than the budget interconnects, which are now a benchmark for all future cables.   8-)

They should "look" the business.   ;D
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 07:08:17 PM »
Quote from: kajak12
you can pick up vintage copper wire with cotton dialectric of ebay

I'll definetly keep an eye out for it, cheers.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Upfront

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2010, 07:13:04 PM »
Or you can strip off the plastic insulation and replace it with cotton. I used sash cord on my simple silver speaker cables. Then use Teflon tape or heat shrink to keep the copper from oxidizing.

Offline omodo

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2010, 11:44:55 PM »
that wire is thick enough for speaker cables!... go thinner, get some 28AWG copper magnet wire (polyurethane coated).

3 wire braid, try a tight and a loose/relaxed braid to see what you prefer, i prefer loose. The drain run should be connected to gnd at one end only, the source end is the norm, but again see what you prefer..

ditch the shielding it kills the sound, ditto the heatshrink & techflex, they will be fragile without the glitz but you built em - you can fix em!


Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 07:20:32 AM »
that wire is thick enough for speaker cables!... go thinner, get some 28AWG copper magnet wire (polyurethane coated).
Why is thinner wirer preferred?   What do you like about it?

Something like this?
Click- Ebay Listing  or this   Another Ebay



« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 07:24:41 AM by ozmillsy »
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Offline omodo

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 10:07:06 AM »
Hi, yes, something like that although you would need to try a few to see what sounds best

Main benefits of using super fine wire is less skin effect, you'll also be able to get a closer tighter/braid than you could with 1mm wire meaning less capacitance. Take a look at the cables made by Allen Wright, they are constructed using this approach, or even get a copy of his book if you want to try a few different types.

Braiding 2m of magnet wire should be fun, I'd probably clamp it at the mid point, braid half, then flip it around and braid the other end, also add a short section of heatshrink at the ends where you spread the braid to add a bit of strength and keep the braid from loosening.

If you PM me your address I can post you a few meters of Cardas magnet wire, and my preferred "killer" ;) copper wire from dave slagle

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 07:35:48 PM »
I'm using these interconnects either side of a passive volume control,  the less resistance the better in the path.   So I'm theorising that thicker copper cable would be just that smidge less resistance.
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Offline omodo

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 08:44:55 PM »
in the scheme of things the resistance difference between the cables would be pretty minor (input impedance of amps, contact resistance of connectors, etc)

in my experience capacitance is more critical for interconnects, theres some good info here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/intere.html

Quote
It seems that as long as the cable dc-resistance is being kept moderate (a few ohms) there will be little influence. The ratio between the cables resistance and the input resistance is very large. Indeed, the contact resistance of the RCA plugs used (terrible connector by the way) is often much larger.
A loop resistance of 1Ohm when feeding a 10kOhm Amplifier input will cause an attenuation of 0.001db.
The Cable inductance also matters little as long as it is kept moderate. The higher the load impedance is, the less relevant the Cable inductance becomes, the lower the load impedance is, the more relevant the cable inductance will become. Interconnect cables of about 1m (3') lengths rarely have an inductance of more than 1uH.
At 20kHz a 1uH inductor will have an impedance of about 0.13 Ohm, causing an additional -0.0001db attenuation.
Even with a 1nF input Capacitance in parallel with the 10kOhm Input Resistance (IEC Load) the attenuation by the Inductance is not significantly larger.
The Cable Capacitance is however crucial for interconnects. I hinted at that when I explained my "first order effects". The Capacitance to cause a -0.1db Roll-off at 20kHz with a 100 Ohm Source Impedance is about 15nF. If our source Impedance is however 1kOhm, a 1.5nF Capacitance will cause this roll-off.
I have seen Output impedance's of around 1kOhm in many pieces of mass produced Hi-Fi equipment. As the UK HiFi-Choice Magazine regularly prints Cable-Reviews that include technical sections with measurements, I can estimate the sort of maximal capacitance a cable may have. A capacitance of a few nF is easily accumulated on longer runs of various shielded cables, not to speak of the "unrolled capacitor" type Cables.
I would conclude that in line-level interconnection the DC-Resistance and Inductance of the cable are of purely academic interest. Constructions with significant resistance or inductance will likely not manipulate the sound of the signal passing through it in any significant way.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 11:06:18 PM »
in my experience capacitance is more critical for interconnects, theres some good info here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/intere.html

Does braiding have a different effect,  to simply twisting?     That link suggests twisting actually increases capacitance?
Quote
Closely twisted Pairs are also good at rejecting EMI (about -47db for the best) but the degree of RF rejection is not as good and capacitance is high.

Thanks for the offer on the wire,  I might take you up on that.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline kajak12

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 11:48:39 PM »
http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_jupiter.html

here you go diy people try this wire in cotton(copper) great wire i use some in my killer
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Offline omodo

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 07:29:52 AM »
Hi, the problem with twisting wires is the conductors remain in parallel, so there is capacitance. A Litz braid, which is what we are reproducing using individually insulated conductors, has the inductors crossing each other cancelling capacitance :)

Some more info on Litz braids, including a 4 wire braid (2pos + 2neg), but I'd start with a 3 wire braid for simplicity:
http://www.chimeralabs.com/diy_braid.html

Quote
There is an optimum wire size or cross section for audio Litz wire. I have had my best luck with 24 AWG to 28 AWG wire for interconnects, speaker cable and hook-up wire. Using larger wire sizes for power cord construction may work well. In interconnect, speaker cable and hook-up wire, the larger wire sizes degrade high frequency performance and do not provide the focus, soundstage and low level detail resolution of the smaller gauges.

Quote
In very low level applications, you may prefer three strands with one strand as a floating shield.


Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 08:03:44 PM »
Hi, the problem with twisting wires is the conductors remain in parallel, so there is capacitance. A Litz braid, which is what we are reproducing using individually insulated conductors, has the inductors crossing each other cancelling capacitance :)

Interesting.   So the protective insulation of the 2 wires touching each other down the run, creates capacitance?

Quote
There is an optimum wire size or cross section for audio Litz wire. I have had my best luck with 24 AWG to 28 AWG wire for interconnects, speaker cable and hook-up wire. Using larger wire sizes for power cord construction may work well. In interconnect, speaker cable and hook-up wire, the larger wire sizes degrade high frequency performance and do not provide the focus, soundstage and low level detail resolution of the smaller gauges.
That wasnt my experience with my first set of interconnects using 1mm solid core.  They were better than what they replaced,   but that isnt saying anything.   I'll give the thinner gauge wire a try.  But I'm thinking that unbraided, simply hanging loose in cotton dialectric maybe worth a go,  and then compare it to braided.   Maybe?

Quote
In very low level applications, you may prefer three strands with one strand as a floating shield.

2 pos, 1 neg, and 1 drain connected at 1 end?
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Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2010, 12:04:26 PM »
In hunting around for more info, I found this site which gave some interesting comments on capacitance....

http://www.quabbin.com/page764.html

In particular, these main items that affect capacitance in cables....

Quote
Since cable capacitance is so important, a lot of analysis goes into minimizing it. This can be accomplished by:

•Increasing the insulation wall thickness
•Decreasing the conductor diameter
•Using an insulation with a lower dielectric constant.

The size of the conductor is usually determined by the electrical requirements of the circuit that the cable interconnects. If the circuit has been designed to require a 22 AWG wire, you cannot reduce it to 28 AWG just to reduce the capacitance. Also, the insulation wall thickness cannot be increased beyond reason since this increases the diameter of the cable, increasing costs and affecting terminations. Thus, the insulation chosen for the cable often becomes the critical variable.
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Offline omodo

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 12:34:51 PM »

Offline kajak12

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2010, 01:51:00 AM »
just for you oz some nice shielding for your ic diy style
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320587148324
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Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2010, 08:54:10 AM »
ooooohhhh, yes !!  I like it .
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Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2010, 12:57:32 AM »
The plan for my second set of interconnects, going abit more upmarket with this set. 

* Eichmann plugs (copper type)
* Solid Core copper wires with doubleshielding x 3, braided (1 +'ive, 1 -'ive, 1 drain)
* WBT 4% Silver solder
* Length- 2m.

Feedback, comments, suggestions welcome. 

.....

Great plugs and solder, forget the heat shrink and forget the screening.  Try something a bit more exotic like magnet wire or even thin silver with several cores of it in cotton.  Also try having a lower resistance on the earth wire.  I have experimented with pure silver, high purity copper, copper ribbon, Aluminium foil, Ag plated Cu, screened and unscreened with PTFE and air dielectric and even solder in an insulator!  It all comes down to personal preferences.  The great thing is you can try lots of things just reusing the plugs. 
If you like a challenge then get some air conditioning copper tubing and insulate a single core positive conductor and feed through centre, the tube is OFC and REALLY LOW RESISTANCE, makes a fantastic speaker cable too as its flexible (ish) being a small bore and offers a high surface area for the tinkly bits to travel along whilst not costing a second mortgage.
If you have some dosh to splash then the Van Der Hul first ultimates takes some beating but probably no good for your passive pot as the resistance is high but the sound…………ahhh very good, but it should be at around 200UKP for 60cm pair.
And for some of those expert critics over on SNA I forgot IMHO, YFI’s
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline kajak12

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Re: DIY Copper Interconnects - mk2
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2010, 01:09:12 AM »
"If you like a challenge then get some air conditioning copper tubing and insulate a single core positive conductor and feed through centre, the tube is OFC and REALLY LOW RESISTANCE, makes a fantastic speaker cable too as its flexible (ish) being a small bore and offers a high surface area for the tinkly bits to travel along whilst not costing a second mortgage."



now that is interesting i must try done silver in cotton many times and most copper wire never ever have i tried air conditioning copper tubing your a idea man my wife all ready thinks i am crazy this will just add to it ;D
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time