Running Lenehan Audio speakers with low powered SET amps

[bhobba]

Beautiful work Steven. Looking forward to learning from you.

Man oh man are you ever not whistling Dixie.  I am getting a SET built to check out on my ML3's:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson

If that works out OK I may have a chat with Steve how to get one of these beauties.

Thanks
Bill

[Hens]

How efficient are the ML3? unless you use a big output triode like a 211 or 805 you might struggle with output.

Those look awesome though Steve.

[crazikid]

Beautiful work Steven. Looking forward to learning from you.

Man oh man are you ever not whistling Dixie.  I am getting a SET built to check out on my ML3's:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson

If that works out OK I may have a chat with Steve how to get one of these beauties.

Thanks
Bill

I wouldnt even bother with SET and any of mike's speakers.... not enough power.

[bhobba]

I wouldnt even bother with SET and any of mike's speakers.... not enough power.

His ML3's are 89db efficient.  Mike and I did a bit of a calculation and allowing 9db headroom figured you could get 86db average at your typical listening position.  A few years ago I had an spl meter and checked the levels I listen at - it usually turned out to be between 75-80 db.  Both Mike and I think it's worth a shot for those that don't listen at loud levels.  Anyway we will find out.  Remember listening at 90db and above for any length of time will damage your hearing - that would equate to about a 20 W amp.  For an interesting discussion about watts check out:
http://www.ellisaudio.com/wattsratings.htm

Mike has confirmed the very flat impedance the ML3's have so it comes down to is the 89db sensitivity enough for a SET.  As I said we will find out.

Thanks
Bill

[tuyen]

Will be very interesting to see how it goes

I'm sure the mids and highs will be great but for a low powered SET to really control the woofer will be a challenge!

What type of SET are you getting Bill?    I'm working with Mr Chan to develop a 2a3/45 SET kit for myself and others if they are interested   Nearly there!!

Tuyen

[bhobba]

Will be very interesting to see how it goes I'm sure the mids and highs will be great but for a low powered SET to really control the woofer will be a challenge! What type of SET are you getting Bill?    I'm working with Mr Chan to develop a 2a3/45 SET kit for myself and others if they are interested   Nearly there!!

Hi Tuyen.

I think it's from the same guy you are working with:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson

He hasn't started on it yet so if you and Eric think the SET you and him are working on could be better let me know and we could go that way.  From chatting to Mike it seems the key thing as far as bass goes is the benign impedance load which the ML3's have.

Thanks
Bill

[tuyen]

No probs Bill.   2a3 output ~3watts,  45 tube ~1.5watts.    High effeciency drivers (ie tannoys, goodmans axioms, altec 604 or horn loaded compression drivers) are most suited to these tubes.   But in saying that, I have never heard the ML3 with a SET so cant really comment further!  

I have tried a extremely modded AudioNote 300B SET (8watts) with my old ML1 (86db) and  at low volumes it was okay (70-80db), but when pushing it up to 'engaging' listening volumes,  the bass would get too loose and muddy (just not enough power to control the 5" woofer).  Valve amps distort differently to solid state so it doesn't sound deafening when it starts distorting, just mainly the clarity of bass and mid bass gets affected.

When I have my ML1 Ultra hooked up to flemo's Ming Da EL34 (40watt triode) push pull amp,    compared to my Yaqin EL34 (20watt triode),  the bass is so much stronger and cleaner with the Ming Da.   This helps to improve the clarity of vocals  too.   At lowish volumes though, I find them to be similar in performance.   But I prefer to listen at medium to high volumes!  

Now when I hook up the killeramp (eL34 built by Steve's mate Paul Baker)  100watt pushpull,   the ML1 ultras really shine then..   Mike's speakers are very hungry for strong clean power to get them to run their best!   Look how big and thick those hand wound inductors are

[bhobba]

No probs Bill.   2a3 output ~3watts,  45 tube ~1.5watts.    High effeciency drivers (ie tannoys, goodmans axioms, altec 604 or horn loaded compression drivers) are most suited to these tubes.   But in saying that, I have never heard the ML3 with a SET so cant really comment further!  I have tried a extremely modded AudioNote 300B SET (8watts) with my old ML1 (86db) and  at low volumes it was okay (70-80db), but when pushing it up to 'engaging' listening volumes,  the bass would get too loose and muddy (just not enough power to control the 5" woofer).  Valve amps distort differently to solid state so it doesn't sound deafening when it starts distorting, just mainly the clarity of bass and mid bass gets affected. When I have my ML1 Ultra hooked up to flemo's Ming Da EL34 (40watt triode) push pull amp,    compared to my Yaqin EL34 (20watt triode),  the bass is so much stronger and cleaner with the Ming Da.   This helps to improve the clarity of vocals  too.   At lowish volumes though, I find them to be similar in performance.   But I prefer to listen at medium to high volumes! Now when I hook up the killeramp (eL34 built by Steve's mate Paul Baker)  100watt pushpull,   the ML1 ultras really shine then..   Mike's speakers are very hungry for strong clean power to get them to run their best! Look how big and thick those hand wound inductors are

Hi Tuyn

Yea it's that extra 3db sensitivity that I think makes a SET feasible with the ML3 rather than an ML1.  However I think the power output of your amps are a little low for even ML3's - although I have heard of people using 3W on 89db speakers before and it was OK.  Basically it would mean a maximum of about 81db at your typical listening position.  I think I may try it if the 8W SET works out.  My feeling on this is it depends on the levels you like to listen at - I listen at low to medium levels so its probably OK.  At medium to high levels forget about it.

Anyway like a lot of the stuff I do checking it out is way fun.

Thanks
Bill

[Hens]

Worth checking out definitely, but honestly, even at 89db sensitivity I wouldn't bother with anything less than 25w and there are only a few triodes that can do that.

Sure it will run with less than 25w but that extra power does equate to extra "grip/control"

If you can afford it though Bill go a nice 211 SET amp

[tuyen]

http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/211_SE_stereo.html

http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/EL156_SE_telefunken_tubes_monos.html

http://tubeguru.hu/audio_tube_amplifier_SE/ONGAKU_COPY_211SE.html

Maybe something like those things?

Very curious about tubeguru stuff..  not local though!  Guy is all the way in Hungary.  Ex. Siemens labs engineer !

[tuyen]

Just split the posts regarding using SET amps with Mike's speakers to a new thread

Hope you guys don't mind!

[bhobba]

Worth checking out definitely, but honestly, even at 89db sensitivity I wouldn't bother with anything less than 25w and there are only a few triodes that can do that. Sure it will run with less than 25w but that extra power does equate to extra "grip/control" If you can afford it though Bill go a nice 211 SET amp

Ouch - they cost nearly 10K if I remember correctly - but they do produce 15W.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Just split the posts regarding using SET amps with Mike's speakers to a new thread Hope you guys don't mind!

From my viewpoint a great idea.

Thanks
Bill

[kajak12]

Beautiful work Steven. Looking forward to learning from you.

Man oh man are you ever not whistling Dixie.  I am getting a SET built to check out on my ML3's:
http://adventureshifi.blogspot.com/search/label/McChanson

If that works out OK I may have a chat with Steve how to get one of these beauties.

Thanks
Bill

bill not enough to have magic you need more watts for ml3's they will play with set but so do computer transports with a killer dac and the end result will be ordinary.

[bhobba]

Very curious about tubeguru stuff..  not local though!  Guy is all the way in Hungary.  Ex. Siemens labs engineer !

Interesting looking stuff.  Other 211 SET stuff I am aware of cost $10K but they tend to produce more output than other SET's.  25W sure looks a good amount of power with 89 db speakers - I know Joe Rasmussen's 20W JLTI powers ML1's just fine - I have checked that myself.  I figure just under half that with 3db more efficient speakers should be OK - but 25W and 3db more efficient - well even if you go loud then you probably will be OK.  Might look into getting those 211 25w mono-blocks a bit further down the line.

Thanks
Bill  

[bhobba]

bill not enough to have magic you need more watts for ml3's they will play with set but so do computer transports with a killer dac and the end result will be ordinary.

Could be.  Fun to check out though - the amp only costs $750 so I am willing to give it a go.

Thanks
Bill

[kajak12]

bill not enough to have magic you need more watts for ml3's they will play with set but so do computer transports with a killer dac and the end result will be ordinary.

Could be.  Fun to check out though - the amp only costs $750 so I am willing to give it a go.

Thanks
Bill

your money bill why not

[Drizt]

After listening to the ML-3's powered by a 8W SET amp I would definitely not recommend the combo.  Lots of very audible distortion at even moderate SPL's as there is not enough head room for dynamically demanding passages.

The 70W Naksa seemed like it was enough to drive the ML3's comfortably even to some pretty crazy levels.  I left the room while the guys were doing that sort of stuff.

[gamve]

I've tried my ML1+R's with a variety of amplifiers.
15W SET drove them OK but only at reasonably low volumes. Once the wick was turned up they got a bit raggerdy ass.
Also tried a Push Pull RM10 35W. This was much better and I could live with this.
Heavily modified 100W B&O Ice mono blocks drove them beautifully but only with a high gain output Valve Pre
Next up was a Proton SS AD-1150 50W. Drove the Lenehan's well but sound is not as sweet as with the RM10
Best so far is the flat amp of the Sansui AU-X1 SS. This thingy has 180W RMS
Seems the ML1+R's love to be driven. Hard and expensive to do with a SET but well within reach of a push pull valve amp.
Will prolly try some Naska 100 monoblocks with Tuyens ultras later. Hoping that will be the best combination.

[kajak12]

After listening to the ML-3's powered by a 8W SET amp I would definitely not recommend the combo.  Lots of very audible distortion at even moderate SPL's as there is not enough head room for dynamically demanding passages.

The 70W Naksa seemed like it was enough to drive the ML3's comfortably even to some pretty crazy levels.  I left the room while the guys were doing that sort of stuff.

good idea dritz your hearing would suffer after exposure to the levels played that day ;
yes the naksa what a amp value for money at its best