world of jitter

[stevenvalve]

When i listen to my system, and after a while close my eyes, it does not sound any different. I usually do not blind testing. I trust my ears and interaction with my brain. I can hear what is happening to the sound, eyes open or closed. It sounds  the same either way. If my observations are wrong because i leave my eyes open, well why have i gone down the right path. Are you saying it is all wrong, because i did not do it blind. Do power cables sound different.  Yes, if you can not hear that. you need to ask yourself why.

I'm not saying it 'is' wrong.  I'm saying it 'could' be wrong (in the sense of actual differences vs. perceived differences)

Ultimately what I believe is that if the difference really does exist then you will be able to pass a blind test.  If you can only hear it during sighted testing then that's when I think you need to ask yourself some hard hitting questions.

In the end I think a lot of audiophiles are like fox mulder, 'I want to believe'.  A lot of audiophiles believe in absolutely everything, including the tooth fairy.  

Some of your thoughts could well be true.  You are saying, my observations 'could' be wrong, (could be) certainly for some people this is true.  If you spend years getting nowhere, trying to improving your HIFI system, (and cant to any degree) then you need to ask these and other questions. In my case i am very very good at what i do, some say the best, I say i am one of, if not the very best out there. Not as a tech, but being able to understand the interrelationship between the sound or colouration's of components and parts, and put them together, as a whole, that eventually makes music, not just music, but music with involvement, body, timber, texture,  flesh and bone, heart and soul,  personal, a concert, a performance. This is very very hard to do, . I personally do not need blind testing to build or tune a music system, but i have no doubt there are plenty that do. The fact is, if you lie to yourself when evaluating  component's, parts and tuning,  you can never achieve greatness. This is one reason why many will never achieve great sound. I make nearly every component from parts on my system,  i am not blinded by brand or reputation. And the results speak, not me.

[Drizt]

Some of your thoughts could well be true.  You are saying, my observations 'could' be wrong, (could be) certainly for some people this is true.  If you spend years getting nowhere, trying to improving your HIFI system, (and cant to any degree) then you need to ask these and other questions. In my case i am very very good at what i do, some say the best, I say i am one of, if not the very best out there. Not as a tech, but being able to understand the interrelationship between the sound or colouration's of components and parts, and put them together, as a whole, that eventually makes music, not just music, but music with involvement, body, timber, texture,  flesh and bone, heart and soul,  personal, a concert, a performance. This is very very hard to do, . I personally do not need blind testing to build or tune a music system, but i have no doubt there are plenty that do. The fact is, if you lie to yourself when evaluating  component's, parts and tuning,  you can never achieve greatness. This is one reason why many will never achieve great sound. I make nearly every component from parts on my system,  i am not blinded by brand or reputation. And the results speak, not me.

Thank you Steve for your reply.  It helps to give context to your posts.  Its also a good thing to have some much self belief.  I don't personally believe anyone is immune to the effects of bias all the time.  Some of our bias is innate, its not a conscience decision, like whether we turn left or right at the cinemas, you don't really choose but most times you will go the same way.  Everyone falls for hearing changes that aren't there in reality, at least every now and again, if not more regularly. You may well be as good as you say, but I still believe using some blind testing could help even you speed up the process and help you sift through the things that make a difference from those that don't.  

Its good to be able to discuss differences of opinion without people getting too upset.

[zenelectro]

terry have you got anyway of measuring jitter on steves wadia?

You need a j-test file which I have, and also a very high quality analyser or PC with sound card - which I also have - but what will it tell us?

My experience over the years is Steve, yourself and others don't necessarikly prefer super low jitter in the playback. Hence your dislike of the tent clocks and certain power supplies.


I now have a super low jitter ovenised oscillator and am making power supplies and other tricks to 'adjust' the sound of it.

Stay tuned.

Terry

[kajak12]

terry have you got anyway of measuring jitter on steves wadia?

You need a j-test file which I have, and also a very high quality analyser or PC with sound card - which I also have - but what will it tell us?

once i know what kind of jitter a wadia/marantzcd94 has when people listen in perth to low jitter transport against cd94 they will also understand that their is more to a transport then just low jitter

[vitavoxdude]

Tooth fairy................

Dritzy, the more you learn about reproducing sound in the home environment  the more you actually realise you do not know.  I have made a  38 year  (first 15 years don’t count) life’s passion out of audio both domestic and pro and I am certain that most of what these guys say is real.

I am aware that challenging people’s views can be productive but to just plain state that they are delusional or lead by the nostrils is not doing them any justice.  He who fails to heed others because of their own prejudices or inability to discriminate are one’s own worst enemy.

Let’s continue in the spirit of this forum to spread the love of music and share knowledge and great learning experiences.  Make it a new year’s resolution!

Vitavoxdude

[Drizt]

I don't think you have read my posts correctly.  I'm not stating all are delusional.  I stated that some believe in absolutely everything, including the tooth fairy.  Somewhere between question everything and believe everything lies the truth, IMHO.

Your right that we learn more along the way.  Sometimes one loses their way along the way though

Tooth fairy................

Dritzy, the more you learn about reproducing sound in the home environment  the more you actually realise you do not know.  I have made a  38 year  (first 15 years don’t count) life’s passion out of audio both domestic and pro and I am certain that most of what these guys say is real.

I am aware that challenging people’s views can be productive but to just plain state that they are delusional or lead by the nostrils is not doing them any justice.  He who fails to heed others because of their own prejudices or inability to discriminate are one’s own worst enemy.

Let’s continue in the spirit of this forum to spread the love of music and share knowledge and great learning experiences.  Make it a new year’s resolution!

Vitavoxdude

[vitavoxdude]

Yes agreed, many loose their way and have soo much self beleif that they disregard others views.  I  lost myself and my way with small 2 way IB speakers around 20 years ago, force of small living space, they did produce a listenable sound but it was far from live breathing  music.  I think where SG treads takes many many years to achieve through a long protracted learning curve, first finding what does not work and then through much experimentation and dedication eventually finding what does work. 

With the KD winning top spot at the DAC shoot out it reinforces this persons ability to descriminate between mere hifi and a music generating front end.  I agree with SG that blind listening is not always required but I can descrimnate between a electrolytic cap and a plastic cap in the signal path and I can hear the difference a well constructed mains lead or proper support makes.

I have multiple CD players from 6 k USD down, >15 tranny amps including Krells and 5 valve amps, they all sound different and work to varying degrees with the 20 plus pairs of speakers I have, no blind listening tests required here.  From the very first bar out of the KD I could hear how it transformed the silver disc into instant music, no hours of testing required, its either got it or it hasn't.

Now for wacky stuff, can your hear a strip of electrical plastic tape when placed along the join on the top of your CD player, I can and it was done blind, talk about do ad do do.................

[Drizt]

Now for wacky stuff, can your hear a strip of electrical plastic tape when placed along the join on the top of your CD player, I can and it was done blind, talk about do ad do do.................

That sounds very interesting.  Can you explain that one a bit further?  What exactly did you do and how did you blind test it (methodology)? 

[vitavoxdude]

Explain I will.

A somewhat opioniated audio mate was making some pretty big claims about equipment supports around 25 years ago, I was a disbeliver back then and it was when this was demonstrated to me that I had to eat major amounts of humble pie; I always knew back then that a turntable benefitted from isolation but amps and speakers.................well no.

The same person after hearing my Lowethers purchased some, a different design but still using the same drive unit.  When I visited to listen to his new speakers and valve amps I was surprised by how the sound differed from mine.  Spread around (well placed accurately) was a series of plastic tape strips on the front baffle, also the enterence door had similar longer strips of tape...........starting to get the picture?  Every piece of audio equipment had its own dedicated support, some 3 legged some 4, all had different top plates.

OK so back to mine, this same person Nick, asked me to close my eyes whilst listening to a familiar track on my current CD player, holly sh!t, what have you done - is it better or worse was the reply, better I said it has relaxed the sound a little to the better.  When allowed to open my eyes all I could see was a strip of black electrical tape  the full width of the player, amazing I said, that's nothing he siad close your eyes again, so I did; he then got busy and around 10 minutes later asked me again - better or worse, well knock me down with a feather, here was something akin to the Peter Belt experiments actualy proving to be more than snake oil but that will stay for another bed time story.


Hope this answers your question in enough detail.
Rgds
Vitavoxdude

[Drizt]

Yes that's enough detail for me to have the proper context of what you were talking about.  Thanks.