Author Topic: DDDAC1543 MK2  (Read 29912 times)

Offline dumptydum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Liked: 0
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2011, 03:49:42 PM »
Hi T,

We are moving house so all my gear is at my brother's - he's burning in the Lampizator dac for me :).  New place will have lots more room for horns to breathe!  Hopefully soon, once I sell my speakers Ill get the mid high goto drivers  :D  The dddac153 mk2 sounds very interesting.  How is the sound different to the other dacs you've heard?
I got the LZ dac level 4 - sounds great on initial hearing - a full meaty sound and not harsh at all.  Quite organic and flowing but I think needs some time to burn in.  No quite the fine highs of the MPS 5 but a different presentation.
You need to get down to melbourne and sample the gear here!

Cheers
Beng

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
  • Liked: 78
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2011, 04:32:56 PM »
  No quite the fine highs of the MPS 5 but a different presentation.

Cheers
Beng

which one is more like real music?
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline dumptydum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Liked: 0
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2011, 08:25:14 PM »
Hi kajak,

The lampizator I feel is better or more real with voices and the mps is better with orchestral/ classical because it can resolve the instruments a little better. Which would I prefer? The lz dac because of the music I listen to.  I know KeithW would prefer the mps. I'm hoping the lampizator will improve much more with burn in.... 

Cheers

     

tuyen

  • Guest
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2011, 09:54:49 AM »
Hi T,

We are moving house so all my gear is at my brother's - he's burning in the Lampizator dac for me :).  New place will have lots more room for horns to breathe!  Hopefully soon, once I sell my speakers Ill get the mid high goto drivers  :D  The dddac153 mk2 sounds very interesting.  How is the sound different to the other dacs you've heard?
I got the LZ dac level 4 - sounds great on initial hearing - a full meaty sound and not harsh at all.  Quite organic and flowing but I think needs some time to burn in.  No quite the fine highs of the MPS 5 but a different presentation.
You need to get down to melbourne and sample the gear here!

Cheers
Beng


Hi Beng,

Great to hear about your progress.  Bigger the room, the better I say (preferably symmetrical though)!    Which mid highs are you thinking of?  SG-370DX  ?  Maybe splurge a bit and go SG-3880BL like this?? :)
How about for your bass?  You really gotta look at GOTO bass.. 

I had a friend come over yesterday (who had heard my system before with the altec woofers) and he commented the bass from the SG-38WN is just so nice!  The integration is so perfect well with the rest of the system he can't fault it.   Also said it was much more 'improved' sound than before with the Altecs 416 (not saying the Altecs are bad in anyway, just different house sound!).    I'd have to agree with him  ;D

The DDDAC has great resolution from top to bottom. It has a very direct/clean sound (no noticeable 'sweetening' or audible rolloffs).   I would hazard to say it is quite 'true to the recording'.   To my ears it has some good elements from a typical pro ss dac (highly resolute from top to bottom, very clean, doesn't (on purpose) add any extra sweetening to enhance the sound)   but also the element of naturalness and flow, common from valve nos dacs.

Other dacs I've tried, I find to have a better sense of 3d spatial/atmospheric qualities which I  don't get from the DDDAC.  There's more sense of 'holographic space' if put another way.     But Doede (DDDAC man) says as the dac modules on the DDDAC are increased,  soundstage and spatial effects improve.   ;D

Really keen to hear a LZDAC one day..    must organise to come over Melb to visit when the time is right!

Please try to keep us posted as your project progress~

« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 10:01:52 AM by tuyen »

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2249
  • Liked: 277
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2011, 08:46:34 PM »
How close will it get to the mighty KDAC? :)  We will have to wait and see!
T,  it sounds like the KDAC has been shelved on your system?   Interesting.    I guess there is no perfect component for all situations.

I might have missed it,  but what is the technical reason why so many chips in parallel makes such a difference?    Is it simply increased power on the output?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline dumptydum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Liked: 0
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2011, 11:24:54 PM »
I'm actually trying to get a front loaded basshorn going but need 2 pairs goto woofers so $$$ Might also offload my other gear!
Will get the 370dx as the passive xovers are designed for these.
BTW how much is the dddac 60 chip unit?

Offline zenelectro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 825
  • Liked: 177
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2011, 11:40:32 AM »
How close will it get to the mighty KDAC? :)  We will have to wait and see!
T,  it sounds like the KDAC has been shelved on your system?   Interesting.    I guess there is no perfect component for all situations.

I might have missed it,  but what is the technical reason why so many chips in parallel makes such a difference?    Is it simply increased power on the output?

Paralleling dac's, resistors or just about any device is done to cancel random non linearities and noise.

The (simplified) theory is as follows: If you have, for example a voltage output from a valve and there is 1V OP and 1uV noise, the noise is random,
so if you parallel 2 valves, you get twice the voltage (or current) but since the noise on each valve is random then it will not add exactly,
some will cancel some will add. The general rule is the noise adds as the square rt  x no of devices so for 2 devices = x 1.41.

So we end up for 2 valves: voltage = x 2, noise = x 1.41 so there is a net loss of noise.

As you can see the law of diminishing returns sets in, having to double the no of devices each time for a net gain of 1.41 (or 0.707, whichever way u look at it).

For DAC's there is a noise advantage but also some forms of distortion are also cancelled with multiple devices.

For the 1543, it is a MIXED scenario. It has almost 10 x the THD=N  of the 1541. It doesn't specify how much of that is noise
so it's hard to predict what the actual measured improvement will actually be without running some tests on it, preferably
multitone IM. Even this won't shed much light on what the sonic result will be.

On thing is absolutely for sure, something like an ess sabre dac, when correctly implemented will measure better than even 1000 x 1543's in parallel
in every way that we currently know how to measure so - as usual, we are still some way off understanding completely how all this stuff
correlates to actual sound.

My theory is a big part of the 1543's 'sound' -is- it's distortion spectrum.



 

tuyen

  • Guest
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2011, 11:47:41 AM »
Cheers Terry. I think I understood maybe 50% of that. haha!

Excerp from Doede's site (http://www.dddac.de/ma_dac21.htm)

Paralleling DAC chips

OK, last but not least, parallel DAC's...... Why this? Actually the TDA1543 is not know for its great linearity and great performance. And this is already a huge understatement, haha !! Why use the 1543 then? Simply because it runs on almost 9 Volts and has a current output. This enables us to make directly 2 Volt Output (CD Standard) without any further tricks than connecting a resistor to the output........ Back to the 1543 quality, so it is lousy? yes it is, but thanks to statistical laws we have a way out !! If you run (ANY !!) process many times, after each other or in parallel does not matter, the uncertainty or errors in the output of the process will improve with the function of SQRT(n) where "n" stands for the number of events. This trick can be used for example to get very precise resistors or capacitors by paralleling them. Thanks to the current source output we can easily do the same for the TDA1543.......

Is there an optimum? I am sure there is, but I was not so crazy to try all possible variations of "n".... I tried in a prototype 3 DAC's in parallel and this was a major improvement. The low level detail, known from high bit systems was really improved. Listening to the 8 DAC version, it comes very close to SACD.... not bad I think (again an understatement... :-) So how many is realistic? well for each doubling of improvement, which equals 1 bit extra of linearity we need to multiply "n" with 4 !! so with 8 I get one and a half bit extra, which actually is already very good. If I want now 4 bits better performance I need to put  4x4x4x4=256 DAC's in parallel. This will consume 12A supply current and dissipates 100Watt. Feel free to do so, but it seems a bit unpractical to me, not even mentioned the circuitry needed to drive the 256 TTL inputs !!! Why did I mention 4 bits? Well, according to the datasheet, the 1543 is aprox 12-13 bits effective. A PCM63 by the way is also not much better then approximately 15 bits effectively. All the rest is marketing :-) So the choice for 8 is purely based on a combination of maximizing "n" and keeping things within reason technically.........

There is also an additional EXTRA bonus by doing this: by paralleling the DAC's we have to decrease the R(I/V) resistor as the current increases. So the Output Impedance is also reduced by "n". This helps a great deal driving the interlink to the pre amplifier of directly to the end stages if you do so...

Furthermore, the DAC pinning makes is possible to just piggy back them..... this resulted in the "cool tower" you see in the pictures.........

Can you actually measure the improvement? Oh yes, no problem ! below, from left to right the 2 results of 1 DAC and 3 DAC, which is almost 1 bit improvement. Both Measurement at optimum. You might think, the difference is low, but this is exactly (3dB is 0,8 bit) what helps the low level detail to play at less distortion !!



Happy Listening and Building !!!!

Doede Douma

tuyen

  • Guest
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2011, 12:46:37 PM »
T,  it sounds like the KDAC has been shelved on your system?   Interesting.    I guess there is no perfect component for all situations.

No such thing as perfect component for all situations oz..   I could play around with different parts in my KDAC for a year and might still not get the same sound as the DDDAC. End of day boils down to user preferences and synergy with the rest of the system components I would of thought.   That's not to say I won't still try play around with the kdac when I have some time though..


I'm actually trying to get a front loaded basshorn going but need 2 pairs goto woofers so $$$ Might also offload my other gear!
Will get the 370dx as the passive xovers are designed for these.
BTW how much is the dddac 60 chip unit?

oh, front loaded basshorn!? I will be knocking on your door waiting for a listen before you know it ;)

SG-370DX.. good choice!   Dibs on these drivers when you upgrade to duralium rod drivers!  ;D

60chip version of  bought as kit from doede's site is 650euro.  Doesn't include any form of casing/power supply. Also comes as a kit so parts need to be soldered onto the pcb boards.    My mate hens has a 2nd hand 24-chip version coming.. but in process of getting 3 more modules to so it will become a 60chip.   I'll be the one building it for him though, as he is lazy ass.


Anyways, an extract of what a mate Alan wrote in an email to me regarding my current setup which he listened to on the weekend (might find it interesting?):

On the flip side, GOTO lacks that leading/trailing edge character. It is "smooth" in this regard and may be associated with analogue character or "naturalness" or organic stuff. This is definitely a feature of GOTO and is in fact a major point of difference between GOTO and probably all other horn drivers (except YL, ALE and Onken). I found it very noticable first time hearing it and I guess was the major reason why I came away not blown away..just a little confused! These are drivers that are so highly regarded throughout the world that one should love them and drool!! But, I conclude that it is simply a character that is either applauded and loved or seen as a criticism. Myself, Henry (Hens) and now you have observed similarly. I have come to "accept" that character as enjoable-but, and it is a very big but. The GOTO drivers are "smooth", organic, so they must be carefully matched with "non smooth" source/amps/cables maybe crossovers too  They (the other components) must be tight and snappy and dynamic, even a little bright I feel-that really means s/s with finesse, high resolution and snap. I would like to hear GOTO with digital crossover. I think it would benefit-to my ears
 
This will "add" the bite and snap and transients to notes that I feel needs to be enhanced-not to change the whole character of the GOTO, just add to it and "improve" it. That is why I feel most seasoned GOTO users use s/s electronics. This is the opposite of what the rest of us try to do (need to do) with non GOTO speakers. We try to buy analogue amps & sources. This is a huge trend in "normal" systems, and an anomalie when it comes to GOTO. Here you need the opposite.
 
It is important to note here that Tuyen had previously mostly valves hooked up to his GOTO, including KD. I heard it first then and it sounded too sweet and analogue and lacklustre and polite...bigtime. I was most critical of the treble. It still sounded good to me though, if that makes sence. He thought similar, hence his move to s/s. That dac is an interesting one! We swaped my valve nos, TD1541 double crown chipped dac in and out with his....huge difference. Not what I expected at all. Which better or worse? Dont know. Tuyen preferred his, I liked elements of both, probably mine a little more with a few changes to dac tubes, cables and system. Mine gave it some more forward (sometimes even too much on some tracks) character, thicker sounding, richer-not perfect overall I might add, as it sounded on the day. His sounded more articulate (light weight maybe???), subtile, maybe detailed and "natural", what ever that means. The conclusion here with GOTO is that the character of the system can be changed dramatically with electronics changes-GOTO is very sensitive to upstream, more than any other system I have encountered.

There is just something about GOTO though.....  

« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 12:49:40 PM by tuyen »

Offline yoshio

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
  • Liked: 0
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2011, 01:51:28 PM »
Quote
On the flip side, GOTO lacks that leading/trailing edge character. It is "smooth" in this regard and may be associated with analogue character or "naturalness" or organic stuff.

I am saying this in general, not to provoke anything but most of the time pre and post ringing of metal dome may lead to increase in artificial leading/trailing edge that one driver sounds, this is kind of distortion so to speak. GOTO have manage to use metal dome but without/minimal the ringing by treating the metal with FRP edge.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 01:53:45 PM by yoshio »

Offline Hens

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Liked: 0
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2011, 03:44:57 PM »
You say lazy, I say smart.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2249
  • Liked: 277
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2011, 10:38:00 PM »
interesting stuff,  thanks for the explanations on running parallel chips.

T,  experimenting with parts on the Kdac is no different to experimenting with wholesale changes of components.  It can take us time to find synergy, sometimes.   Sounds like you're onto something with this dddac, good stuff. 
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline PET-240

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Liked: 0
  • looks alot like hard work.....
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 09:18:33 PM »
Mr Connor and I, more Craig, have been modding a TeraDak Chameleon 16xTDA1543 dac for sometime now, with actual great effect, Mario heard it at the dac shootout at Mike Lenehan's and it has improved leaps and bounds since then, to the point now that Craig could almost prefer it to his modded Monarchy NM24 which is PCM1702/4 I think. The little 1543 isnt that bad, its no  KD1541 to be sure, but as a day to day dac is entirely liveable and enjoyable, with a good tube output will likely improve again, we are currently setting up for I2S implementation, so will see how that goes. And TX2575's, and shunt regs, and Bybee music rails and and and....
Tuyen, let me know the buffer/drive chip in the dddac, may have a substitution for you that is capable of much faster switching than the 74HC, be interesting to know your thoughts.....

tuyen

  • Guest
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 10:49:53 PM »
Hi PET-240,

Each tower module uses a single 74HVC125N buffer chip.  Feel free to suggest something else :) As long as you can sorta guide me on how to hook it up!  Photo of one of the towers below.



Indeed, the 'directness' type sonic qualities of the tda1543 with its passive IV output stage is quite enjoyable.  Be interested to hear from you how adding a tube output stage to the tda1543 tower goes!  Also other mods too, please do try keep us informed :)


Offline vitavoxdude

  • Beauty is in the ear of the beholder
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1175
  • Liked: 71
  • Caring and sharing
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 12:11:47 AM »
You say lazy, I say smart.
Hens
Never underestimate the true value of having a good friend or take them for granted too often, they are of more value than gold and rear indeed. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Lazy arse could be translated into complete trust in Tuyens skills to see you right on the audio front.  Lecture over.
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

tuyen

  • Guest
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 01:21:00 PM »
Hi PET,

Is this the replacement buffer IC you mean?




Offline PET-240

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Liked: 0
  • looks alot like hard work.....
Re: DDDAC1543 MK2
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2011, 12:06:55 AM »
Hey Tuyen,

Close, same bloke, has a hi speed buffer board the takes the 3.3volt and turns to 5V level signals, has three of the little cockies on em, think your buffer from memory gets switched from the i2s to essentially reclock yes?
The Deuland VSF with 2.2uf value I think do work really well, the TX2575's are yet to be tested, but have some hopes!

Cheers,

Drew.