Author Topic: any recommendations  (Read 13253 times)

Offline kajak12

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any recommendations
« on: January 27, 2011, 09:16:51 PM »
what is the best value for your $$$ room treatment? 
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2011, 10:51:40 PM »
Hi M  ;D, I posted a thread starter about this already.

In order of price: (Bear in mind this is for a domestic situation as opposed to a dedicated HiFi room, bass being the single hardest area to control).

1. Ceiling insulation encapsulted in a frame with decrotive cover material attached to walls, min 200mm thick.
2. Rock wool as above for better attenuation.  ;)
3. MDF 20mm square rods of varying lenghts randomly affixed to a back board of around 1 mtr square so not to be too dominant(but a bugger to dust!) for dispersing mids and highs (no good at bass unless > 500mm long. Use a mirror at the seated listening position to locate when speakers seen in  reflection.  8)
4. Thick 'rug' carpet or tapestry hung on walls.
5. Stage quality pleated lined velvet curtains to one quarter of the room at speaker end using 4 inch deep pleats.  ;D
6. Home built 'bass traps' - lots of info about how to build on web placed as min in 2 corners behind speakers.
7. Thick natural fibre (wool?) carpet.
8. Large absorbent couch with large cusions.
9. change your speakers for those that are designed to work in the room volume.  :-* :-*
10.Digital equalisation.  :o


First you'd need to work out what frequencies are being troublesome, usually they are around 40 to 200 hz in the bass and 2 to 5k in the top. Once established you can then set to work attempting to change the room's balance.  Forget 'acoustic foam' it looks horrible and only affects the mid and top, it's also overpriced by around 20 times it's true worth.
Just my 2p's worth
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline Paul Spencer

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 08:50:07 PM »
Bang for buck, it's hard to beat foam! It's not ideal, but you can easily get it cheap or free. Cheaper if you buy it as a foam mattress, a great size for a bass trap (single mattress).

I'm a bit of a fan of DIY room treatments. A lot of the stuff you buy isn't pretty, and often their idea of aesthetics is offering a choice of colours like green or orange!

One of the most useful materials for getting serious is rigid fibreglass insulation. It's quite dense and more solid than insulation you would use in a house. Great for bass traps, or absorption.

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 06:28:44 PM »
Hello Paul
So how much can you purchase a foam mattress for?
Clarks rubber sell these locally and they are not cheap at all.
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 11:24:49 PM »
I'm a bit of a fan of DIY room treatments. A lot of the stuff you buy isn't pretty, and often their idea of aesthetics is offering a choice of colours like green or orange!

One of the most useful materials for getting serious is rigid fibreglass insulation. It's quite dense and more solid than insulation you would use in a house. Great for bass traps, or absorption.
Hey Paul,  any chance we can see some pics of your DIY room treatments?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 12:34:48 AM »
Bang for buck, it's hard to beat foam! It's not ideal, but you can easily get it cheap or free. Cheaper if you buy it as a foam mattress, a great size for a bass trap (single mattress).

I'm a bit of a fan of DIY room treatments. A lot of the stuff you buy isn't pretty, and often their idea of aesthetics is offering a choice of colours like green or orange!

One of the most useful materials for getting serious is rigid fibreglass insulation. It's quite dense and more solid than insulation you would use in a house. Great for bass traps, or absorption.
FOAM is in my view (SNA) is only good over a narrowish band of mid frequencies.  It sucks big time in the bass being ineffective and looks bad when dirt gets trapped in it.  There are so many better alternatives.  Clarks rubber is not a cheap place for most things and those mattresses are around 30 dollars a throw from memory.  These will be ineffective as bass traps but they make relaxing to music good in the prone position!
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 03:35:11 PM »
Polymax Absorb XHD 100mm is pretty good value.  A pack (4 sheets) is around $450 for 1200mm x 2400mm x 100mm

This comes in black or white.

The white stuff looks like this



You can increase the low end abortion efficiency by adding an air gap.  See the megasorber example below


Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2011, 10:25:22 PM »
FOAM is in my view (SNA) is only good over a narrowish band of mid frequencies.  It sucks big time in the bass being ineffective and looks bad when dirt gets trapped in it.  There are so many better alternatives.  Clarks rubber is not a cheap place for most things and those mattresses are around 30 dollars a throw from memory.  These will be ineffective as bass traps but they make relaxing to music good in the prone position!
V
Hey V,   The challenge with room treatments is it can be a bit of trial and error on what works, applied with some understanding of basic principles.  Eg: with bass, what doesn't get absorbed, gets reflected. There is usually always some level of absorption, and some level of reflection to still manage.   How much is absorbed,  which freq's are absorbed, what happens to the rest?    What's going on with the bass that isn't absorbed, how is it being reflected?    Can the reflections be diffracted?  Does the diffraction measures always help?  Measurements can really help to understand all of this.  But i reckon it takes a fair amount of time to understand what we're actually doing.   It's interesting to watch people speak about applying various forms of room treatments, speak of the challenges they're having with room effects and nulls, without being willing to share before/after room sweeps. Often unwilling to take their treatments down, despite ongoing challenges.

I do plan to get a professional in, when I'm settled in my next place. I'm not going to bother with the trial and error approach,  I don't have the time to spend experimenting.

It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2011, 11:18:19 PM »
You have no choice but to trial and error, take measurements, wash and repeat.  It is all part of the process.  I look forward to reviewing your before and after frequency and time domain plots as it will be of use to the rest of the community.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 08:55:51 AM »
Since you've already done it,  and since you say it'll serve the community,   It would be great to see your plots and hear about the logic and understandings you've applied in your problematic room.   Walk the talk, and contribute something of value.

I definitely have a choice,  and can avoid my own personal trial and error.   Getting in a professional will (for me) accelerate the process of measuring what is happening, and applying known treatments to deal with the response of the room (that is yet to be built).

Fluffing around and experiementing with mattresses and other types of wall lining, where I don't know the true absorption properties - is not a process I will be embarking on.  It's always interesting to read other peoples experiences though.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 08:57:26 AM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozcal

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 06:28:45 PM »
Oz , i think you hit the nail on the head , the sheer complexity involved in using room treatments effectively is a big stumbling block.
Getting a proffesional to do it for you is a very sensible route imo.
If I had my own house and the money to pay a professional acoustician that's a road I would be happy to travel.
That being said I have just downloaded the lastest version of REW and the cal file for my Radioshack spl meter and am looking forward to having a bit of a play.
G
Listening with my ears :)

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 08:30:39 PM »
Since you've already done it,  and since you say it'll serve the community,   It would be great to see your plots and hear about the logic and understandings you've applied in your problematic room.   Walk the talk, and contribute something of value.

I definitely have a choice,  and can avoid my own personal trial and error.   Getting in a professional will (for me) accelerate the process of measuring what is happening, and applying known treatments to deal with the response of the room (that is yet to be built).

Fluffing around and experiementing with mattresses and other types of wall lining, where I don't know the true absorption properties - is not a process I will be embarking on.  It's always interesting to read other peoples experiences though.

Your animosity is showing ;)  (I'm sensing your negativity).

I haven't done it yet, so I do not know what you are talking about?  Hopefully you are not referring to your claim that my curtains are absorbing all of my bass!  I'm current in the process of buying all the required bits and pieces to DIY.

Sure it would be adventagious to get a professional to do it for you but in the end it is going to cost you a premium.  We all make our own cost vs. benefit decisions.  I personally want to walk this journey myself rather than let someone do it for me.  I want to learn through doing.  Each to their own though.

I'll post up my before and after measurements, I look forward to seeing yours.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 08:34:04 PM by Drizt:) »

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 08:48:26 PM »
Megasorber is almost double the price of the Polymax XHD but it has it's advantages.

http://www.megasorber.com/

It has a facing that means it doesn't really need a material to cover it.  Well, not in all cases as it gives you the option to keep it raw.

Harver (the owner) has also done a lot of scientific testing to prove the worth of his product.  At least you can review the datasheets to see if it will fulfil your requirements.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 08:49:58 PM »
Tontine accoustisorb 3 is another alternative.  A little more expensive than the Polymax XHD.

http://www.soundblock.com.au/pdf/tontine_accoustisorb_3.pdf

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 08:59:06 PM »
I haven't done it yet, so I do not know what you are talking about?  Hopefully you are not referring to your claim that my curtains are absorbing all of my bass!  

Ahhh yes, the curtain discussion.   At that time you assured everyone reading your thread that you had in fact measured your room with and without curtains,  and that there was no difference, you still had the suckouts.

So now you're telling me you havent measured the room (before/after).   Hmmm,  and you hung the curtains without checking what they are doing?    Are you assuming they're only diffracting the high freq reflections?    What is the assumption in hanging them?

If you think heavy curtains dont affect bass in *any* way, I reckon you might be surprised (as I said before).   I'd expect them to improve things, they should,  but it depends.    They will deaden the bass reflections to some degree.   But lets say that the material you're using lets through some frequencies like they werent there, and had an absorbing effect on other freq's.     You really dont know what they are doing, until you measure it up.

Quote
I'm current in the process of buying all the required bits and pieces to DIY.

Hang on,  you've posted freq response scans from REW on your room.  What else do you need to get?  

Quote
I'll post up my before and after measurements, I look forward to seeing yours.

I look forward to seeing them.   Might be a awhile for me,   I'm still tweaking house designs,   trying to convince the missus that higher ceilings in my audio room are mandatory.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 09:29:28 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 09:48:59 PM »
lol, ok then ;)  You can never admit you are dead wrong can you?

I currently have corner foam bass traps (not very effective) and curtains, that is it.   I'm in the process of substantial amounts of broadband absorbers.  Give me some time to install them before I can measure their effectiveness ;)  I won't hide my findings.  If they don't work, they don't work.  It is just some lost money but at least I will have learn't something.  I can live with that.

Ozmillsy, no more dancing around, do you believe my curtains are absorbing enough bass to make a difference?  Answering, maybe is a cop out.  Either you believe it is or it isn't.  

I have measured the subs in my room before the curtains and after.  I don't save every measurement I take, generally I just look at the graphs on the screen and work with that at the time.  

I still have not seen you take a real measurement in your room.

Remember when you posted this....  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1370915/HT%20Pics/Xmen_Lchannel.jpg



I questioned it in a friendly method and you attacked me.  You then learned that you were wrong but there was no apology forth coming from you.......

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?s=&showtopic=86392&view=findpost&p=1505837

Come on mate, be a bit kinder.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 10:01:48 PM by Drizt:) »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 10:08:37 PM »
Ozmillsy, no more dancing around, do you believe my curtains are absorbing enough bass to make a difference?  Answering, maybe is a cop out.  Either you believe it is or it isn't.  

I asked you if you had measured the room without the curtains,  and you got the sh!ts and resented the question - then proceeded to attack me over it.

How the hell would I know what YOUR curtains doing?       Sure curtains can make a difference.   

Quote
I have measured the subs in my room before the curtains and after.  

so you can take measurements, or you can't take measurements.  Which is it?


That's a good looking graph if you ask me.   :)






Quote

I still have not seen you take a real measurement in your room.

Remember when you posted this....  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1370915/HT%20Pics/Xmen_Lchannel.jpg



I questioned it in a friendly method and you attacked me.  You then learned that you were wrong but there was no apology forth coming from you.......

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?s=&showtopic=86392&view=findpost&p=1505837

Come on mate, be a bit kinder.


It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 10:13:51 PM »
Comprehension.....  come on man..... think this stuff through.



so you can take measurements, or you can't take measurements.  Which is it?

Did I not just explain that?  I take measurements all the time.  I don't always save the graphs.  Is that hard to comprehend?

That's a good looking graph if you ask me.   :)

Yeah, it does, if it was in any way a realistic measurement.  Instead it is a false reading due to incorrect set up / measurement.  You still can not admit you were wrong.  Sigh.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2011, 10:53:32 PM »
Did I not just explain that?  I take measurements all the time.  I don't always save the graphs.  Is that hard to comprehend?
I can sense your animosity, take a chill pill.

Quote
Yeah, it does, if it was in any way a realistic measurement.  Instead it is a false reading due to incorrect set up / measurement.  You still can not admit you were wrong.  Sigh.
A smoothed response graph is not an invalid result.

Great graph,  and I have under estimated how good the room was that I was in.   I miss it.    But that's ok, the next place will be even better.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2011, 11:06:01 PM »
Your taking the Mickey right ?  The graph is wrong. That graph is impossible from the listening position (raw).  Why can't you just admit you are wrong.