Author Topic: any recommendations  (Read 13259 times)

Offline kajak12

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 11:45:40 PM »
 Maybe one day i will measure my room and post graphs/data for all to see,i think treblid or tuyen have the equipment to do such measurements
you never know dritz i might just need some room treatment.
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 11:52:56 PM »
It is good that you are open to the possibility kajak.  If you are serious I'm more than willing to lend you my thoughts on the graphs and how you might be able to tackle any issues that are identified.  I'm certainly no expert but I'll try my best to help or point you in the right direction to find the answers.

Offline kajak12

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2011, 12:15:24 AM »
It is good that you are open to the possibility kajak.  If you are serious I'm more than willing to lend you my thoughts on the graphs and how you might be able to tackle any issues that are identified.  I'm certainly no expert but I'll try my best to help or point you in the right direction to find the answers.
No probs dritz i will try if it sounds like sh!t then no room treatments at kajak's house besides a blanket on a lcd tv hung on the wall.
I am serious both me and flemo would like to experiment.
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2011, 08:57:42 AM »
Your taking the Mickey right ?  The graph is wrong. That graph is impossible from the listening position (raw).  Why can't you just admit you are wrong.
Catch up Drizt.    I said smoothed, not raw.

In the old thread, I admit that I was wrong about it being a raw graph.   The info has been smoothed.

Smoothed graphs are perfectly valid for more easily seeing frequency response anomalies,   As raw graphs are too busy.

Not taking the Mickey at all.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2011, 09:04:05 AM »
That graph isn't even possible smoothed from the listening position.  I'm sorry mate but you need to start taking advice from people.  You can't always be right mate, learn when to accept help from people.  You need to set up your measurement rig properly.  Those measurements are incorrect, impossible from the listening position.  Your speakers would not measure like that even in a perfect aenochoic room

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2011, 09:35:40 AM »
That graph isn't even possible smoothed from the listening position.  I'm sorry mate but you need to start taking advice from people.  You can't always be right mate, learn when to accept help from people.  You need to set up your measurement rig properly.  Those measurements are incorrect, impossible from the listening position.  Your speakers would not measure like that even in a perfect aenochoic room
No worries.

The spl meter used in that particular case could be half the reason. And it's true that different gear produced different results.    That thread was a good lesson that if you rely on measurements alone, you can be easily fooled into thinking things are good/bad by taking the measurements as gospel.

Thanks for sharing that old thread.  Your motives for sharing it are interesting (childish attempt to discredit, I can pull up a thousand in return if I wanted to play games (i dont)).   But we can all learn from it.    

I stand by the original comment.   It's a good looking graph. :)  whether it's accurate is another thing.

You seem to think I don't listen.    May I say, it would help if you took your own device at times.   Curtains can effect bass in unexpected ways, to different degrees, depending on the material used.

If i were you, and i had such major room nodes/suckouts,  I'd be seeking the advise of a professional.  
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 10:37:50 AM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2011, 08:09:31 PM »
That is a very mature edit on your behalf mate. ;)

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2011, 08:12:08 PM »
Curtains can effect bass in unexpected ways, to different degrees, depending on the material used.

lol, go on, show me any kind of evidence to support this claim.  Oh, that is right, you can't ;)

If i were you, and i had such major room nodes/suckouts,  I'd be seeking the advise of a professional.  

I have spoken to a few experts on this matter and they have concurred with my analysis thus far.  Room treatments are required (broadband that can be as effect as possible in the lower bass regions).  What more can they actually tell me? 

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2011, 10:05:30 AM »
I have spoken to a few experts on this matter and they have concurred with my analysis thus far.  Room treatments are required (broadband that can be as effect as possible in the lower bass regions).  What more can they actually tell me? 
Tell you?     I'd be paying them to treat the room.     Might hit the wallet harder, than doing it yourself.

Whatever the charge, it's got to be worth it, to know it's been treated by a professional.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2011, 11:20:28 AM »
Interesting that a DIY guy would recommend a professional to do the job.   Room treatments are something I think anyone can / should do.   Where as electronics is something I feel a professional should do.  Each to their own.

Tell you?     I'd be paying them to treat the room.     Might hit the wallet harder, than doing it yourself.

Whatever the charge, it's got to be worth it, to know it's been treated by a professional.

That is fair enough.  Everyone can make their own choices on how they want to do it.

I'm DIY and I'm more than happy to give it a go.  If it doesn't work out then I will have learnt something.  I'm ok with that.   Time will tell how successful I have been.


Offline treblid

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2011, 11:32:12 AM »
Maybe one day i will measure my room and post graphs/data for all to see,i think treblid or tuyen have the equipment to do such measurements
you never know dritz i might just need some room treatment.
Mine is just the Behringer ECM8000 (uncalibrated) and the matching mixer... If you want I can bring it down next time, I'm not sure what Tuyen has but I'm sure it's better :p...

You'd also need a fairly good low latency audio card, and if possible a good quality notebook.

Happy tweaking... I'd love to see how you can apply your current approach to audio with the more traditional frequency weighted tack...

Tell you?     I'd be paying them to treat the room.     Might hit the wallet harder, than doing it yourself.

Whatever the charge, it's got to be worth it, to know it's been treated by a professional.
:ninja: I have a feeling Drizt can't afford one? :p J/k... Drizt, just get somebody to do it, and you can watch him do and learn (much better than buying a book).. And then you don't have to cut foam or f/g or any other weird materials that will get into your lungs....

That's what money is for, spend... Do it once, do it right.. Will be money well spent.


Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2011, 01:20:44 PM »
That is fair enough.  Everyone can make their own choices on how they want to do it.

I'm DIY and I'm more than happy to give it a go.  If it doesn't work out then I will have learnt something.  I'm ok with that.   Time will tell how successful I have been.


How long ago did you get the subs, hang the curtains?

Good luck with it.   Will follow it with interest.   Look forward to seeing your informative posts/graphs.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Jehuty

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2011, 01:21:35 PM »
much better than buying a book

Speaking of book, this is a good one and certainly worth buying: http://www.getbettersound.com/

I was initially reluctant to read it but it came out as a surprise because most of my view in setting up an audio system concurred with the author's...and there's still a lot more to learn too from the book. Thanks to gamve who lent me his  :)
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2011, 02:27:52 PM »
How long ago did you get the subs, hang the curtains?

lol you still believe the curtains make a big different in the bass region..

Good luck with it.   Will follow it with interest.   Look forward to seeing your informative posts/graphs.

Cheers.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2011, 02:30:15 PM »
It is pretty ironic that a site dedicated to DIY has so many members trying to tell me not to DIY. :P


Offline treblid

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2011, 02:32:32 PM »
It is pretty ironic that a site dedicated to DIY has so many members trying to tell me not to DIY. :P
My apologies.. DIY ahead... :)

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2011, 09:47:49 PM »
How long ago did you get the subs, hang the curtains?

lol you still believe the curtains make a big different in the bass region..
big?  Can produce Unexpected results.

Aren't we a pair then,  because I think it's hilarious that you feel curtains make no difference at all.   
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2011, 11:30:22 PM »
big?  Can produce Unexpected results.

Aren't we a pair then,  because I think it's hilarious that you feel curtains make no difference at all.   

lol.  It is funny.

Offline Paul Spencer

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2011, 05:02:37 PM »
Cripes ... you guys need to pick ONE forum to argue on. ONE! Arguing on one, then arguing about what you argued about on another ... that's like worrying about the fact that you worried about something. BTW you need to go visit the Monty Python argument clinic!

Didn't see the replies, must have email notifications off ...

Hello Paul
So how much can you purchase a foam mattress for?
Clarks rubber sell these locally and they are not cheap at all.
V

V,
Think of a cartoon picture. Kind of like when Coyote sees road runner and the image of dinner comes up. I'm the guy who sees a couch on the side of the road and thinks "bass trap!" I also get free foam from a friend. It's a bit hard to beat!

Quote
Hey Paul,  any chance we can see some pics of your DIY room treatments?

It would have to come with a warning ... what you are about to see may offend some viewers! There will be photos, there will also be a wait. I have really ugly prototypes at the moment. The kind that not even a mother could love. I do have a plan in mind and probably next year there will be some photos. My speakers and some of the treatment will be both custom built to fit together. I will have horns built flush into a giant soffit bass trap. Both exist as prototypes right now. So I will have two bass traps, each 1.2m wide and floor to ceiling in the front corners. Yes they are big but they actually stick out into the room less than even an ML1 placed properly (ie not hard up against a wall).

There will be a bulkhead trap over the main seating position (against the rear wall), with downlights in it. In section about 900 x 500. I'll be building a bass trap couch at some point in the corner - yes a couch modified to act better as a bass trap. That will be an interesting challenge. I was hacking apart an old couch that was comfy but dodgy. Part about to go to the tip, then I realised it had useful bits in it. So we have one bulkhead trap, one couch corner trap and two corner bass traps. This is in a dedicated room, red walls, black ceiling, combined home theatre and music room. There will also be some diffusers, and many of those bass traps will have a membrane over them to avoid making the room dead. When you put enough bass trappage in a small room to make the bass behave, you have a dead sounding room. So many of the panels will have a painted MDF layer over them with holes cut - those holes make them act also as a diffuser - look up RPG BAD panel and you'll get an idea. I won't be absorbing first reflection points in this room generally as I've designed the speakers to avoid the need.

Probably a bit hard to imagine all that.

Quote
Maybe one day i will measure my room and post graphs/data for all to see,i think treblid or tuyen have the equipment to do such measurements
you never know dritz i might just need some room treatment.

I'm pinching myself right now. Could this be happening? Waiting for Drizt to say power cables do make a difference ............. and for Stevenvalve to say "I feel like doing some blind testing today, who's up for it?!" ... Sorry, couldn't resist. 

Just one suggestion for anyone getting pro help. Make sure you know what you want. Those prepared get the most benefit. If you aren't able to articulate what you want to achieve, then it's very difficult for a pro to actually help. They will probably tend to default to their own preferences. So it pays to understand some of the terms. Terms like room modes, shroeder frequency, room gain, precedence effect, pressure vs velocity traps etc. Having a bit of understanding of some basics of room acoustics and different strategies will help you get the best help. If you get a consultant who doesn't ask you questions about what you prefer and already has a list of solutions, then you are getting nothing more than what you could read on the interweb! A smart consultant should be asking you about what you are looking to achieve, then using their tools to get there, not trying to impose a single solution onto every room in the world.

Offline Drizt:)

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Re: any recommendations
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2011, 06:38:54 PM »
Just one suggestion for anyone getting pro help. Make sure you know what you want. Those prepared get the most benefit. If you aren't able to articulate what you want to achieve, then it's very difficult for a pro to actually help. They will probably tend to default to their own preferences. So it pays to understand some of the terms. Terms like room modes, shroeder frequency, room gain, precedence effect, pressure vs velocity traps etc. Having a bit of understanding of some basics of room acoustics and different strategies will help you get the best help. If you get a consultant who doesn't ask you questions about what you prefer and already has a list of solutions, then you are getting nothing more than what you could read on the interweb! A smart consultant should be asking you about what you are looking to achieve, then using their tools to get there, not trying to impose a single solution onto every room in the world.

I respectfully disagree Paul.

You do not need to know the technical terms to know what you want to achieve sonically.  If you knew all of the technical aspects you would not need a professional to help, IMHO.

For example.

Customer says to professional:  My system is (a)bass heavy, (b)thin in the midrange and (c)tizzy in the top end and I do not (d) want a room that sounds dynamically constrained and/or dead.
Professional says:  Well to tackle issue a I would sugest 1, 2 or 3.  This will impact the look of your room in this manner and cost $X.  What solution is agreeable for you?... to tackle b, c & d .... etc.

I think the professional should be able to interpret the audible problems the customer has identified and be able to suggest many different solutions to those problems.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 06:42:15 PM by Drizt:) »