Author Topic: Should I fit a Duelund  (Read 3610 times)

Offline Davey Willo

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Should I fit a Duelund
« on: December 02, 2013, 09:43:01 AM »
Hi

This maybe the most stupid question ever posted on KillerDAC but as V can attest too, my expansive knowledge of electronics and the inner works of audio equipment could be scribed onto a match head using a very broad chisel.

Ok, my primary source is an SD Card reader based on the very impressive SDTrans384 unit which has been fitted into case with all necessary ancillaries and a separate power supply. Now as much as I am happy with the quality of sound that it produces I am of course always looking for that little extra and as I see so much love for the Duelunds on this site and the fact that you guys shove them into anything that will take them I'm curious whether I should do something similar to my player.

I wondered if you guys could look at (what I believe is) the currently installed capacitor, whether you think it a good one and whether you think that I could improve output if I were to swap it out for a Duelund.

If the answer is yes would you then direct me to which one you thought it should be and where I can buy one?

Thanks in advance for any and all input fella's

Best regards
Dave

Fingers crossed that the pictures are attached


Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2013, 03:01:33 PM »
The 100UF Aeon you have there is i think, made by Solen. Anyway they are not a bad cap. Duelund don't make 100UF caps, and if they did, it will cost a bomb. Generally the best type of cap (film and foil) only go up to about 10uf - Duelund to 20 UF - Auricap, although Auricap is not a real film and foil. 100uf PB solens will only sound different, maybe better, maybe not. Go to parts connection and check what is available in 100uf. The problem is what you have is ok, other cap brands are just different. It is hit and miss affair if you change them for another brand.  I would leave your cap and look elseware for improvement.  I usually listen to the sound of components and then pick parts with the strengths these components need (sound wise) but to do that you need to know what parts initially sound like and that means buying and trying, that is why I have a draw full of parts. This is a interesting cap but name your poison.     http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_obb_main.html

Obbligato PSU Film Capacitor - Axial 100uF / 400V, PSU Film, 47mm W x 112mm L, Axial, Each $49.00 $49.00 pcX USD Price






« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:15:13 PM by stevenvalve »

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2013, 05:52:22 PM »
Look at the electrolytics on your board, they are solid caps, Like computers boards use, and usually sound like crap, replace them with ELNA cerafines.

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2013, 05:56:52 PM »
Hi Steven

Thanks for your input so far mate, however I am ashamed to say that I don't understand a single thing that you have said (remember match head?)

Can you make it easier for a complete noob to understand please, what are electrolytics and where would i purchase ELNA cerafines?

Cheers fella
Dave

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2013, 09:40:47 PM »
Hi Steven

Thanks for your input so far mate, however I am ashamed to say that I don't understand a single thing that you have said (remember match head?)

Can you make it easier for a complete noob to understand please, what are electrolytics and where would i purchase ELNA cerafines?

Cheers fella
Dave

Hi Dave

I believe a lot of work went into the SD trans and followed it's development for a while.
Be careful replacing anything on that board, there's a couple of high speed Micros (or FPGA's) which will
make a lot of noise if not decoupled properly. The solid caps don't sound good for audio but are actually very
good for shutting up high speed RF noise. They will also most likely be in parallel with ceramic chip caps local
to the IC's. So there is interaction between the two caps.

1st rule is only mod 1 thing at a time and listen very carefully after each change to make sure you are
going forward. 

The best place to start are the clock power supplies.

cheers

Z
 

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2013, 09:58:49 PM »
Ah ok Z, I agree about not touching the trans itself, that was never my intention actually hence my question about the cap, i read so much on KD about Duelunds I just wondered if i would hear an improvement over the one fitted, you know what it's like alway looking for that last little bit   ;)

Thanks fella's
Dave

Offline kajak12

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2013, 10:32:41 PM »
what outboard power supply do you use with this device?
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2013, 11:43:51 PM »
Hey Mario

I'll pull it apart and take some photos to show you

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 10:04:59 AM »
Ok here are a couple of photos of the power supply, not the prettiest workmanship but it works well.


Offline kajak12

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 11:47:03 PM »
Ok here are a couple of photos of the power supply, not the prettiest workmanship but it works well.


Is the cord solid core?  copper or silver?
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 12:04:43 AM »
Ok here are a couple of photos of the power supply, not the prettiest workmanship but it works well.


Is the cord solid core?  copper or silver?


Don't have a clue mate

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 01:09:44 AM »
Hello funny little green man  ;)

So what is to your disliking about it at the mo.  I thought it sounded pretty awesome fed by the TP power supply.  So what's this new power supply box all about?  Whilst it's reasonable to say that quality comes at a price the power supply does appear to have been built with cost a factor.  I am not really keen on torroid transformers, never have been after hearing the difference 30 years ago  :o

Rectifiers diodes look suspect although good practice hooking them direct to caps keeping leads short

As others have mentioned the Aeon poly prop cap is one flavour of power, you would need to be quite specific in your complaints for anyone to be able to advise on parts substitution and as Zen mentioned the caps on the digital board can be at best almost impossible to remove without destroying the board and may be coupled to really horrible smaller caps to suppress digital hash and haze!

I would order a Teddy Pardo power supply  and forget all about changing out caps, a nice fit and forget solution.

So what is it, sharp and cold, warm and fuzzy, thin and lifeless?????  Give us a clue Dave then the older Dogs can jump in with more considered substitutions ideas.

Is this A WAR audio boxed unit?  If so speak to Pat, he would have gone through several iterations to get it the way he likes which is usually pretty good.  Strangely enough, the internal wiring can mess things up and as you are one of the few who have gone to the trouble of having a dedicated ring fitted and expensive Oyide power cables etc it seems cheating to have that twisted errrr, crap inside the box (I can hear lots of people cringing at that comment) Ducking now  :-[.  It could be the old ha'porth of tar spoiling the ship.................or it could be nasty interactions clouding up your sounds, difficult but not impossible to alay...............................

Duelands are great but as Steve G says, not available in 100Uf values.
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 11:27:19 AM »
Hi Steve

Thanks for your input, there is nothing wrong with the sound mate, not at all, I was simply Duelund curious as you boys seem keen to fit them wherever and whenever you can, and as I'm always keen to see of I can squeeze an extra teeny bit of natural timbre and tonality out of the speakers I wondered if a Duelund would be worth it.

Those caps on the board are not part of the enquiry, I would not even consider touching the board, they have always been there, they are an integral part of the design, and as you know the board sounds pretty damn good with them in so I'll leave them well alone. ;)

i'm told that this power supply feeds more than 5v and that the card needs the extra to really sing (at least that was my limited understanding) but I keep jumping back and forth between it and my other supply, there is a difference but I can't make up my mind which I like best,

I really need to set up a blind listening test with some like minded friends, I would also like to put a Teddy Pardo in the mix so will be hitting Teagle for a loan of his, he's been asking to come listen to the Harbeths anyway so we may kill two birds with one stone, I'll listen to his power supply while he supps the supplied Speckled Hen :)

Can you explain what the values 100Uf mean please, as you know, I am a complete noob with this sort of thing, what is 100, why is it used in my unit and why don't Duelund do one of similar value.

Thanks again fella's
Dave





Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 12:54:13 PM »
Hi Davo

Gives me a shout when Teagle is heading your way and I'll join the party (no Speckled Hen though-aqua a la poofta for me these days)  If the additional power supply feeds a greater voltage than 5 Volts (which the original design called for) then it could operate the unit close to its maximum.  Be careful here.  Did the supply come from Pat?  IC's usually operate at the 5 Volt level so it's normal to supply a couple of volts above this and let the local power regulators manage the voltage feed to the circuit. Have you put a voltage meter across the output of the boxed external supply?  What was the voltage?

If you are Bi curious  :P I mean curious what various capacitors can do, just buy some of a similar voltage to the ones in the outboard power supply, make sure they are at least the same voltage rating.  Elna Silmic II's are a good stating point and if you have the space Solen Polypropylene 200uF, but you'd need a much bigger box.  You really need to be able to switch between the different types to truly hear the differences.

There is a list of different capacitors which I put up on this forum describing my own thoughts on each type.  Take a look at this and then check prices.  The Dueland capacitors are not designed / made for power supply duties as reservoirs (storage to smooth between each pulse from the diodes) but more as signal decouplers and DC blockers in circuits and speakers; as Steve G pointed out, there value stretches to only 20uF not 2000 or more uF(micro farads) more typically found in power supplies.

So here is my take on reservoir caps, Electrolytics compared to Polypropylene sound slow and ploddy, they do have a richer sound but this comes with congestion and a blurring of transients.  PP caps sound much faster and cleaner but you need loads of them for the same storage capacity which increases cost and space, hence why ROTM manufacturers do not use them.  Jensen make a great range of Electrolytic capacitors and these along with DNM slit foils are about the best of the bunch.  YMMV, all IMV.  Black gate caps (almost impossible to find) are both expensive and take too long to sound good so forget them. :-X

And final comment, go DC from a large battery source, this bypassed with a few PP caps will take you straight to heaven but this is only for the dedicated die hards who don't mind lead acid cells in their lounge, or you could get the newer battery technology similar to what powered your Audiophileo. ???

As all music replay starts and ends with the power supply it does pay dividends to get this as good as you can, hence why the KDAC uses valve regulated power for its output stage.  If you measure the voltage from the blue transformer I can knock up a plate and frame power supply as a direct comparison, one you may struggle to beleive its still just AC chopped into pulsed DC.
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 03:07:07 PM »
Yes the PS is from Pat and was built specifically to drive the SDTrans so I'm not concerned on it being wrong, I have supreme faith in his expertise but also know that should something do go wrong that Pat would fix it for me anyway, he's a good bloke so I feel totally relaxed on that score.

I have not got the equipment to measure the voltage Steve, and wouldn't know what to do with it even if I did have it.  :'(

However I would be very interested to hear a plate & frame PS given the opportunity.

I also like the idea of a battery PS, that is an avenue that I would very much like to explore, especially if there is modern technology out there that meant that I wouldn't need a big stinky car battery in the room connected to a bloody great charger. WAF plays a large part in my life as you know.

Davo

Offline kajak12

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 07:05:08 PM »
Hi Steve

Thanks for your input, there is nothing wrong with the sound mate, not at all, I was simply Duelund curious as you boys seem keen to fit them wherever and whenever you can, and as I'm always keen to see of I can squeeze an extra teeny bit of natural timbre and tonality out of the speakers I wondered if a Duelund would be worth it.

Those caps on the board are not part of the enquiry, I would not even consider touching the board, they have always been there, they are an integral part of the design, and as you know the board sounds pretty damn good with them in so I'll leave them well alone. ;)

i'm told that this power supply feeds more than 5v and that the card needs the extra to really sing (at least that was my limited understanding) but I keep jumping back and forth between it and my other supply, there is a difference but I can't make up my mind which I like best,

I really need to set up a blind listening test with some like minded friends, I would also like to put a Teddy Pardo in the mix so will be hitting Teagle for a loan of his, he's been asking to come listen to the Harbeths anyway so we may kill two birds with one stone, I'll listen to his power supply while he supps the supplied Speckled Hen :)

Can you explain what the values 100Uf mean please, as you know, I am a complete noob with this sort of thing, what is 100, why is it used in my unit and why don't Duelund do one of similar value.

Thanks again fella's
Dave





You can always put duelunds in your speakers if teagles comes down i might join him if you dont mind we live close to each other
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline Davey Willo

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Re: Should I fit a Duelund
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2013, 08:15:47 PM »
No worries Mario, anytime mate.