Author Topic: Resistor games  (Read 21555 times)

Offline stevenvalve

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Resistor games
« on: December 26, 2013, 07:12:29 PM »
I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest.  http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new  non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 12:26:05 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2013, 08:25:58 PM »
 Resistors I consistently use, more later
Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. Clean clear super resolution very good timbre, not quite as natural as the Allen Bradleys, but they are the best.
Allen Bradleys 2 watt. No super resolution here, but these are super natural and rich, They can be little thick and fat with a chocolate coloration until at least a week of running in,  then superb.
Audionote  tantalum resistors. Old version, Very good, but a little white or grey, rising top end, a little bleached of timbre. But still pretty good.

Riken, These are a carbon film, They sound sweet, and pretty, but also very dark, nice black background. Only for digital, that's where I use them. Not a very even handed resistor, Not recommended



Offline Jehuty

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2013, 11:03:43 PM »
For those who can't clearly see the new AN tantalum non magnetic resistors they are in red circle.
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline Jehuty

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 08:03:34 PM »
Some info about Allen Bradley resistors (thanks to Ozcal for the tip on SNA):
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/allen_bradley_resistors.html
Quote
Allen Bradley RESISTORS special treatment method
As stated Allen Bradley resistors are carbon composite, being made of an organic material they do have the tendency to absorb water from the atmosphere. This absorption can increase the actual resistance of the component, hence the slightly higher than normal tolerance published on this page. To fix this simply remove the water from the component and seal it. The best method is to place the resistor/s on a baking tray set, your oven to 80 degrees centigrade and leave in the oven for 8 hours. The secret is to remove the mositure slowly if you rush it it will become noisy in circuit. Once cooked seal the body of the component in Shellack (preferably the flakes) to stock any further water absorption. At the end of this procedure you will have a much lower noise, more closely tolerance resistors. Special thanks to Colin Cornish for this excellent tip.
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 07:45:05 AM »
I wonder if that procedure leans them out?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2013, 01:21:08 PM »
I wonder if that procedure leans them out?

Probably.

Both Carb Comp R's and old Polyester F/F Caps (Mullard etc) used in all this old gear is either hygroscopic or just affected by
moisture over time as it gets in where leads protrude.

As a general rule I use CC resistors for low values below say 1k and generally stay away from them for values >10k or so for
reasons of noise. Carbon Comp resistors are very noisy compared to other types however you have to understand that the
noise of a resistor is proportional to it's value. Not so well understood by average tweaker. IOW, a 10R resistor makes virtually immeasurable
noise, 10 meg resistor makes tons.

Specifically, a 400 ohm R has 2 x noise of 100R, 1600R has 2 x noise of 400R....etc so 400k has 64 x noise of 100R.

So especially in low level or first stages, a high value resistor is better served with a Tantalum type. Better stability, low noise,
lower drift and I think in these more sensitive stages CC R's colour is more likely not the go. Add the chocolate later :) keep things
clean up front!

You know many old noisy Marshall guitar amps (and other valve amps) have highish value (68k) carb comp R's right at the input and you can more than 1/2 the noise by
swapping one for 1k R. Most people are looking at the first tube trying to find low noise 12ax7 but the game is over before signal
gets to tube - the input R's are the culprit! 

There you go - that's called Johnson Noise!   :)

Z



Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2014, 11:48:49 PM »
I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest.  http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new  non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
Well I ran them for 3 days till I could stand them no more. They share a common trait with there cheaper older model resistor, Harmonic bleaching. There is a sameness, slight whiteness to the timbre. Two different Singers one for each channel, no longer sounded as individuals but had similar character, Still good, But. The background was no longer black. They are musical, nice in every HI FI way, very good indeed, but they are not Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. When I put just my original Shinkoh 1 watt tantalum resistors back in that position and then started the system, I had a heart attack and died. More later.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:48:27 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2014, 03:40:57 AM »
Well is a resistor that complicated, Why don't they (Audionote) strip one down (Shinkoh) and reverse engineer it. Well that's obvious, they must have already, so why aren't they as good. They have had 2 goes at the cherry, Is the tantalum carbon they use just not the same formula as the Shinkoh. Zen what is the answer.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 03:45:36 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline hedalfa

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2014, 08:00:41 AM »
I have tried a lot of resistors in the last 40 years, I am always interested in the new latest and greatest. here is a link to one of the latest.  http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
MY favourite has always been the Shinkoh tantalum resistors. and the one to get, is always the 2 watt version. Because some values are unavailable my amps have been using some 1 watt 56K Shinkoh. Anyway I scored some of these new  non-magnetic AudioNote tantalum 2 watt 56K using a copper end cap, and now its time to see if they cut it. The older AN tantalums sold by parts connection are good, Musical, but are a little white, with a rising top end, not the best timbre, One good thing about them is they can take some punishment, if you run them hard. I put in 2 of the new AN 2Watt 56K. at first listen they seem a bit lean and very sibilant, so just in case it's a bad solder joint I resoldered the connections, I will let you know, are they worth the serious money audio note demand. The ANs look similar to the Shinkoh, you can see them in the pictures. The cream coloured resistor
Well I ran them for 3 days till I could stand them no more. They share a common trait with there cheaper older model resistor, Harmonic bleaching. There is a sameness, slight whiteness to the timbre. Two different Singers one for each channel, no longer sounded as individuals but had similar character, Still good, But. The background was no longer black. They are musical, nice in every HI FI way, very good indeed, but they are not Shinkoh 2 watt tantalum resistors. When I put just my original Shinkoh 1 watt tantalum resistors back in that position and then started the system, I had a heart attack and died. More later.

Very disappointing when things go this far backwards.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 08:03:47 AM by hedalfa »

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2014, 01:31:43 PM »
They are still very good resistors and better than the Shinkoh tantalum resistors in many ways, buy not in the ways that matter to me. The timbrel character is a number one important priority to me. Its amazing that in a system, changing 2 resistors in an amp can ultimately make such a dramatic difference. But as we all know here, it just does.

Offline Peter A

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2014, 01:35:09 PM »
So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.

Peter

Offline Jehuty

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2014, 07:23:35 PM »
Hi Peter,

From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.

Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.

Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)

Cheers,
William
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2014, 12:53:06 AM »
Hi Peter,

From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.

Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.

Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)

Cheers,
William

I think the Z foil are stripped (no package) bulk foil R's.
Vishay bulk foil are probably the cleanest / most transparent resistor ever made but many find them lean / thin sounding.
They are also very expensive.

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2014, 01:43:47 PM »
Hi Peter,

From what Steve has written:
1. Shinkoh tantalum 2 watt
2. Shinkoh tantalum 1 watt
3. Allen Bradley 2 watt
4. Audio Note tantalum 2 watt (I'd go for the old version simply because they're a lot cheaper than the new ones)
5. Riken 2 watt.

Also taking into account zenelectro's explanation, I'd use Allen Bradley 2 watt for all values below 1k ohm when Shinkoh 2 watt is not available.

Another resistor that can be very good is Vishay naked Z foil. I asked Craig Connor his opinion and he says he uses them extensively and in the right position this can be better than Shinkoh. Where exactly is the right position? We need to ask Craig more :)

Cheers,
William

Right position I would say is in feedback loops but power handling is always an issue with the bulk foils.
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2014, 05:15:07 PM »
So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.

Peter
I don't like to recommend anything involving audio parts, because they is no guarantee regarding synergy. I am not a fan of any resistor unless its some form of carbon, First tantalum carbon is in my opinion the material the use for majority of spots, followed by (in a few places for tuning) the rest. like 2 watt Allen Bradley so natural and rich, audio note, new audio note, whatever works. I like resistors that are the Ying and Yang and having these opposed sounds is nice for tuning. Its all a blend, with the wire you use. caps, everything, its so complicated.

 I think the Z foil are stripped (no package) bulk foil R's.
Vishay bulk foil are probably the cleanest / most transparent resistor ever made but many find them lean / thin sounding.

I agree with ZENELECTRO on this. Not for me, but I have no doubt they will work well in some places .

Genially I keep away from all this stuff, don't like there clean sterile cardboard nature. The thing to grasp (for upgrading) most audio parts out there are ordinary, basically marketing bullsh!t. measures great but not really listened too.

Offline omodo

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2014, 09:18:23 PM »
Some info about Allen Bradley resistors (thanks to Ozcal for the tip on SNA):
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/allen_bradley_resistors.html

I have been doing a bit of research of late on AB resistor types, and looks like the baking procedure was actually mentioned in the old datasheets, but they recommended vastly longer times than 8 hours -- up to 120/130 hours for 1W/2W types !!!...




edit: also quite interesting is the test voltage/bias for higher values...



Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2014, 10:10:53 PM »
Now that is really interesting, I will read this intently. There is more to a resistor than meets the eye.

Offline Jehuty

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 09:13:47 AM »
I have been doing a bit of research of late on AB resistor types, and looks like the baking procedure was actually mentioned in the old datasheets, but they recommended vastly longer times than 8 hours -- up to 120/130 hours for 1W/2W types !!!...




edit: also quite interesting is the test voltage/bias for higher values...

Very good finding omodo! Thanks for that  :)

I have been happy so far with the AB without any baking but it is certainly interesting to try the procedure and make a comparison between non-baked vs baked. I'll post a report if I decide to go ahead with the procedure.
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline ochremoon

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2014, 09:26:52 AM »
Great post omodo. Thanks for that - very informative!

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Resistor games
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2014, 09:40:38 PM »
So Steve, what other resistors do you recommend.

Peter
The thing is with the 2 Watt Allen Bradleys, every time I buy say 270Rs when I get them here, they nearly always read about 280R- 295R, Yet the colour code is 270R. I know there is a tolerance of 10 percent on domestic and 5 percent and on the military resistors. but both are consistently high, plus or minus to me means if you have 10 new Allen Bradley resistors, on average 5 will read above or on 270R, and 5 will read below or on 270R, or do they mean 10 percent either way . Well now we probably know why they are high.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 09:42:26 PM by stevenvalve »