Author Topic: Capacitor Games  (Read 23305 times)

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2014, 10:09:22 PM »
I may do the same (you're a long time dead, as they say)
That is good advice, it puts life in prospective. Enjoy it now there my be no tomorrows.

Offline data

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2014, 10:23:59 PM »
I knew this place would kick off another path to an aim for better sound.

What was I thinking  ::)

Ah, well.......I may start looking at different tube based circuits, that should keep me busy till I have some cash flow to start.

Still interested in what you think of the Hovland's, Steve  8)

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2014, 06:39:27 AM »
A good tube phono stage can be expensive, but there is a guy that makes EAR clones, in part using recovered parts, I had  a loan of one from a member and while it didn't have the detail and refinement of the stage I have now, it was very musical and very open, maybe with better parts...
I love my 834P.   But there are some parts in it that I'd like to change. (Eg: Wima's.  :-X ).

What does the EAR clone cost approx?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline data

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2014, 05:29:41 PM »
Hay OZ :)

A bunch of guys on lenco heaven (thread here http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=6182.0 ) were into them, I think it was working out to about $250 shipped, maybe about $300 shipped now.

Yeah, they are not works of art but do work and sound good for what they are. But the cases and transformers are recovered from other used kit, and the rest of the parts very ordinary, the one I borrowed used 6SL7's if I recall correctly.

This is the modified circuit that the guy used I think http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Leserbriefe/Carsten-RIAA/Carsten-RIAA.htm

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2014, 07:56:34 PM »
Would be nice if they were, hay  :)

I have a pair of the old type in the first coupling stage of my jfet phono stage, with VSF's on the out-put, and have been tempted to replace them with another pair of VSF's....... but will it be worth the expense? or would I be better investing that in a move to a all tube phono stage?

A difficult thing for me to decide on, so Steve's opinion on the Hovland's is of great interest to me, I know he would have better perception with these things than I do, and others here would also have better than I do  ::)

Although, an all tube phono stage is very attractive  8)
Here is the interesting thing about listening to a system and then commenting on the quality of different tested components. As you all know I am comparing Cast duelunds against hovland music caps. On my big system its easy, because you can hear a fly landing on the speaker box or even a half deaf audiophile coming through the front door, the smallest change via even a piece of wire is audible. But on the second system consisting of a great sounding set of Quad 57s topped with Linauem omnidirectional tweeters, leak stereo 20 Rebuilt with quality hand picked parts and also armed with great valves, stepped resistor volume control, plus a very good sounding expensive professional pioneer DVD player. Now here is the problem when I change parts cables caps resistors it's very much harder to pick exactly what is really going on, there is a equalization of the playing field, differences are somewhat nullified. The differences are there but can we use this information in a real tangible way. So the question needs to be asked, is any of the results even valid, Could anyone build say, incredible sounding amplifiers or preamps if they did not have a great sounding setup, do you need a real sounding system to actually hear the truth. Well all I can say (with this Quad setup) is that i could build a great sounding amplifier to suit the quad 57s. But I could not make with certainty a universal, magical sounding world class amplifier. If we where to do some blind testing of parts, via this system can we really predict anything representative of the truth. Well my answer is not much chance. Anyway I am still listening to these caps, I just need people to decide for themselves how much real world value should be factored into the result. PS, one thing the Quad 57 speakers and leak setup does have, tremendous musical engagement.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 09:15:49 PM by stevenvalve »

Offline data

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2014, 09:31:11 PM »
Nice post Steve.

For myself, I use others experience with different parts as a reference point (It's also interesting and sometimes thought provoking). It just makes the path a little shorter... sometimes.

At the end of the day I always need to try for myself, in my system.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2014, 01:42:59 AM »
Nice post Steve.

 I use others experience with different parts as a reference point (It's also interesting and sometimes thought provoking). It just makes the path a little shorter... sometimes.

At the end of the day I always need to try for myself, in my system.
I too started buying parts recommended to via the friends, magazines, and the general audiophile community. But they can only tell you about experiences on there own systems. Often their idea of greatness, was unfortunately my idea of ordinary, It's not there fault, they can only tell you as they hear it, attuned to the level of performance they had achieved. That meant often, the recommendations had many limitations. I just had to buy and try. That is why I have draws full of substandard Audio parts. But guidance from the right people can be a big help. Hopefully with all the contributors on this forum, we will help many new audiophiles, so they do not have to take that same long expensive and often misguided path. We have all been there.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 02:29:46 PM by stevenvalve »

Offline hedalfa

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2014, 08:41:45 AM »
Here is the interesting thing about listening to a system and then commenting on the quality of different tested components. As you all know I am comparing Cast duelunds against hovland music caps. On my big system its easy, because you can hear a fly landing on the speaker box or even a half deaf audiophile coming through the front door, the smallest change via even a piece of wire is audible. But on the second system consisting of a great sounding set of Quad 57s topped with Linauem omnidirectional tweeters, leak stereo 20 Rebuilt with quality hand picked parts and also armed with great valves, stepped resistor volume control, plus a very good sounding expensive professional pioneer DVD player. Now here is the problem when I change parts cables caps resistors it's very much harder to pick exactly what is really going on, there is a equalization of the playing field, differences are somewhat nullified. The differences are there but can we use this information in a real tangible way. So the question needs to be asked, is any of the results even valid, Could anyone build say, incredible sounding amplifiers or preamps if they did not have a great sounding setup, do you need a real sounding system to actually hear the truth. Well all I can say (with this Quad setup) is that i could build a great sounding amplifier to suit the quad 57s. But I could not make with certainty a universal, magical sounding world class amplifier. If we where to do some blind testing of parts, via this system can we really predict anything representative of the truth. Well my answer is not much chance. Anyway I am still listening to these caps, I just need people to decide for themselves how much real world value should be factored into the result. PS, one thing the Quad 57 speakers and leak setup does have, tremendous musical engagement.


I would not have really considered this years ago, yet I have also come to this view myself.  A lot of testing (blind or otherwise) might be considered naÔve where we run some gear against each other and expect to divide up the winners and losers.  If you have done much experimentation with systems over time you may have experience a false result, thought yourself something was a problem (or inferior) when you hadnít really identified the cause.  One simple case was some strange tonal resonances occasionally out of decca Kelly tweeters, no it wasnít a design fault, it was operator error, they needed to be properly mounted, when they were properly mounted the problem completely disappeared.  Some owners might have sold them for that fault.  The other common problem is speaker placement, Andy and I  have  heard first hand how much better for example quads sound pulled out from the walls, and how horribly poor a new pair sounded when a dealer had them right up against walls.  You can quite imagine some one concluding quads were terribly poor speakers against others based on faulty implimentation.

Where there a major deficits, and equipment has faults we may not need a system where you can hear a fly landing on the speaker to hear the differences. Yet say we have some speakers that arenít really tuned well, box issues and room effects, how reliably can we make conclusions about amps feeding those speakers.  One amp (amp A) may set off issues with speaker response that the other doesnít, we falsely conclude that amp A  is inferior to AMP B other, when if we listened to both on a speaker that was well tuned and had minimal  room interactions we could imagine reaching the opposite conclusions, amp A is superior.



« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 08:46:23 AM by hedalfa »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2014, 09:02:48 AM »
I would not have really considered this years ago, yet I have also come to this view myself.  A lot of testing (blind or otherwise) might be considered naÔve where we run some gear against each other and expect to divide up the winners and losers.  If you have done much experimentation with systems over time you may have experience a false result, thought yourself something was a problem (or inferior) when you hadnít really identified the cause.  One simple case was some strange tonal resonances occasionally out of decca Kelly tweeters, no it wasnít a design fault, it was operator error, they needed to be properly mounted, when they were properly mounted the problem completely disappeared.  Some owners might have sold them for that fault.  The other common problem is speaker placement, Andy and I  have  heard first hand how much better for example quads sound pulled out from the walls, and how horribly poor a new pair sounded when a dealer had them right up against walls.  You can quite imagine some one concluding quads were terribly poor speakers against others based on faulty implimentation.

Where there a major deficits, and equipment has faults we may not need a system where you can hear a fly landing on the speaker to hear the differences. Yet say we have some speakers that arenít really tuned well, box issues and room effects, how reliably can we make conclusions about amps feeding those speakers.  One amp (amp A) may set off issues with speaker response that the other doesnít, we falsely conclude that amp A  is inferior to AMP B other, when if we listened to both on a speaker that was well tuned and had minimal  room interactions we could imagine reaching the opposite conclusions, amp A is superior.
Absolutely Hedalfa.   Happens all the time.    Happened to us in fact, at the last ACT gtg.    All in attendance left thinking the Radford was over-rated,  and the Leak best PP amp around.

The Radford had issues,   a change (I made) that knobbled it's top end.     It's fixed now.   If forum members want to hear and compare it,  come to my place.      There is no point taking it elsewhere, as it's tuned into my system.   8)

 
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2014, 12:11:13 PM »
Absolutely Hedalfa.   Happens all the time.    Happened to us in fact, at the last ACT gtg.    All in attendance left thinking the Radford was over-rated,  and the Leak best PP amp around.

The Radford had issues,   a change (I made) that knobbled it's top end.     It's fixed now.   If forum members want to hear and compare it,  come to my place.      There is no point taking it elsewhere, as it's tuned into my system.   8)

 

Yes thats exactly what happened, though I thought something had possibly gone wrong with the amp, it wouldnt normally sound as it did, yet I had no conclusive idea as I had never heard another radford, it was only a hunch, yet hunches are not always wrong.


Offline Jehuty

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2014, 08:39:12 PM »
BAD NEWS!!!

http://partsconnexion.com/cap_film_duel_rs_speaker.html

Quote
DUELUND has recently launched a new cap product, to replace the original Virtual Stacked Foil (VSF) Series. A Copper Foil hybrid design, using the dielectric of the original VSF Series, but in the same form factor as the CAST-PIO Series (taking advantage of itís non-resonant mechanical stability), these caps approach the CAST-PIO performance is a number of ways, but at a far lower retail (nearly half). Like with CAST-PIOís, the values listed have been bought (and stocked) in quantity, so that we can price these parts at their lowest possible retail (not like the custom-ordered pricing of the past). Retail pricing is lower the old VSF Series, and comparable to the now retired Alexander line - but with far better performance that either of those discontinued lines !
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2014, 09:08:12 PM »
Duelund VSF, The best 400 Volt capacitor I have ever heard, and they are going to junk them.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 09:09:56 PM by stevenvalve »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2014, 09:17:38 PM »
<sighs>  :'(

Hopefully the new model comes close.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2014, 09:25:56 PM »
Hi Steve

Any conclusion on the Hovland Musicaps at this stage?
The hovland music capacitor sounds very good indeed, there main claim to fame is musicality and involvement, Remember I am running them in my second system, a fully worked Leak stereo 20 with Quad 57s. They really rivet you to the music, impressive and cheap. They can on some systems be a little bright, (no darkness here) and a little shy of timbre, possibly because they are made with high purity aluminium. So you must tune the component or system accordingly. This is a very good cheap film and foil capacitor.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 09:36:47 PM by stevenvalve »

Offline ochremoon

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2014, 10:08:34 PM »
Corresponding with Duelund a few weeks ago, they told me that the VSF would always be available as a custom order (don't know what the cost would be though).

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2014, 12:53:26 AM »
Corresponding with Duelund a few weeks ago, they told me that the VSF would always be available as a custom order (don't know what the cost would be though).
I hope so, its the best capacitor I have heard,  but only in the ways that matter.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 01:00:33 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline Jehuty

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2014, 09:53:51 PM »
The hovland music capacitor sounds very good indeed, there main claim to fame is musicality and involvement, Remember I am running them in my second system, a fully worked Leak stereo 20 with Quad 57s. They really rivet you to the music, impressive and cheap. They can on some systems be a little bright, (no darkness here) and a little shy of timbre, possibly because they are made with high purity aluminium. So you must tune the component or system accordingly. This is a very good cheap film and foil capacitor.

Hi guys,

Anyone know where I can buy them? I tried Octave Electronics but they didn't reply to my query so I assume they don't have it anymore. I need about 8 caps to play around in my Leak 20  ;D

Cheers,
William

Edit: Just found them on www.percyaudio.com, I hope they still have some stock  :)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 10:02:51 PM by Jehuty »
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Offline Jehuty

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2014, 08:04:51 AM »
Alright, I got a reply from Percy Audio and they have plenty in stock. Anyone wants to buy some Hovland Musicaps? Send me a PM. We can share the shipping cost.
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Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2014, 09:27:17 AM »
Interesting points made by SV and Headalpha regarding masking effects in systems.  IMV the less componentry you have in a circuit the easier it is to spot greatness or bland hifi; trouble is, getting a system to behave its self with minimal componentry is where the art and design comes in.

An amp tuned to a particular system is also less likely to perform in another system as well as a stock built amp, let alone another room.  Manufacturers always have a couple of pairs of speaker kicking around with which to evaluate and adjust the outcome of their projects which may be the latest fave rave or something of a more mature 'standard' model. (BC3's and BC'1's, ESL 57's etc come to mind here for UK output).

A little concerned that Dueland are almost dropping the VSH caps, maybe they are following the marketing strategy of trying to make more profit using easier to make product which may or may not be as good as what went before.  Dropping the Alexandra range soo quickly is also driven by concerns other than quality possibly. :(  If the Blackgate debacle is anything to go by you better stock up on VSH's................................ :-X  Does anyone have the inside line as to exactly what their reasoning is?

V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Capacitor Games
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2014, 11:06:15 AM »
Interesting points made by SV and Headalpha regarding masking effects in systems.  IMV the less componentry you have in a circuit the easier it is to spot greatness or bland hifi; trouble is, getting a system to behave its self with minimal componentry is where the art and design comes in.

An amp tuned to a particular system is also less likely to perform in another system as well as a stock built amp, let alone another room.  Manufacturers always have a couple of pairs of speaker kicking around with which to evaluate and adjust the outcome of their projects which may be the latest fave rave or something of a more mature 'standard' model. (BC3's and BC'1's, ESL 57's etc come to mind here for UK output).

A little concerned that Dueland are almost dropping the VSH caps, maybe they are following the marketing strategy of trying to make more profit using easier to make product which may or may not be as good as what went before.  Dropping the Alexandra range soo quickly is also driven by concerns other than quality possibly. :(  If the Blackgate debacle is anything to go by you better stock up on VSH's................................ :-X  Does anyone have the inside line as to exactly what their reasoning is?

V
Duelund sell the cast copper for about 2/3rd the price of the Duelund VSF copper, it's clear from looking at the cast, they are cheaper to make.