Author Topic: Essence gZero  (Read 6516 times)

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Essence gZero
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2014, 11:38:08 PM »
Yes building one's collection of tapes need's dedication and a deep wallet.  I was merely commenting on  how I'd spend 3 K to improve a system.  I think I'd also rather have a top flight tuner and aerial as this brings into one's life a huge amount of music which you'd probably not get exposed to normally.  Horses for courses. ;D

Incremental difference do exist between various manufacturers of cables as we all informed types know but once you breach the figures I mentioned the effects / improvements become very system dependent IMV.  I suppose if you are cashed up then fair enough, blow the money and more importantly, support local manufactures!  ;D

Yeah know what you mean, your new cables will make all source components sound better, no argument there.  It's just my view that there are other things to get right first.  Labouring the point a bit:

    • source including great music
    • speakers
    • amp
    • Interconnects
    • Speaker cable
    • equipment supports
    • Mains feed

    Great music is the KEY as far as I am concerned as even low price kit can sound good fed the right diet of music.
    Just my tuppenth worth!  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
    V[/list]
    We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

    Offline zenelectro

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    Re: Essence gZero
    « Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 03:50:59 AM »
    Yes building one's collection of tapes need's dedication and a deep wallet.  I was merely commenting on  how I'd spend 3 K to improve a system.  I think I'd also rather have a top flight tuner and aerial as this brings into one's life a huge amount of music which you'd probably not get exposed to normally.  Horses for courses. ;D

    Incremental difference do exist between various manufacturers of cables as we all informed types know but once you breach the figures I mentioned the effects / improvements become very system dependent IMV.  I suppose if you are cashed up then fair enough, blow the money and more importantly, support local manufactures!  ;D

    Yeah know what you mean, your new cables will make all source components sound better, no argument there.  It's just my view that there are other things to get right first.  Labouring the point a bit:

      • source including great music
      • speakers
      • amp
      • Interconnects
      • Speaker cable
      • equipment supports
      • Mains feed

      Great music is the KEY as far as I am concerned as even low price kit can sound good fed the right diet of music.
      Just my tuppenth worth!  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
      V[/list]

      I've already stirred up the honey bees around here - have to get the smoker out!  :)

      However, this is pretty close to how I see it and IMO an even handed effective approach.

      PS Double emphasis on that first one - great music.   ;)


      Z


       

      Offline springcreek

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      Re: Essence gZero
      « Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 08:59:41 AM »
      I hope we get to hear these cables at the Canberra GTG in May  8)

      Really looking forward to it...I may have to sell a kidner to get some  :'(

      Offline ozmillsy

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      Re: Essence gZero
      « Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 01:05:28 PM »
      I hope we get to hear these cables at the Canberra GTG in May  8)
      Yeah, that would be great, if it could be organised.

      Everything is system dependant,  theres so many ways to realise improvements.

      IMV, the main ingrediant to sonic bliss, is being open to the options (accompanied by hard work and patience).

      I agree with taking a balanced approach.    We're all on a journey.
      It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

      Offline zenelectro

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      Re: Essence gZero
      « Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 01:45:46 PM »
      If people consider the cables to be 'stupid expensive' so be it.

      As I said, for me, for what they offered me, I considered them to be exceptionally good value.

      If you disagree, so be it

      Craig

      Craig,


      No worries, we'll leave it there, better all round for everyone.  ;)

      I think it will be a good excuse for a gtg / listening sesh / few beers :)

      Nathan,

      I hope I haven't made you feel uncomfortable or out of place here - sincerest apologies if I have.

      Over the few phone conversations I have had with yourself and your wife I can tell you guys are great people so:

      as Kajak says - enjoy the journey!

      Tez

      Offline rawl99

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      Re: Essence gZero
      « Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 03:47:05 PM »
      ;D The other thing that comes to mind is the law of diminishing returns, once you have reached the ~ 600 $ per interconnect and slightly more for speaker cables your VFM goes South big time.

      With really good kit the cables sometimes do not make a huge difference IMV and as already mentioned when the cost is higher than the kit its connecting then its time to shout wolf.  :(   :-X
      V

      V

      the law of diminishing returns applies EVERYWHERE.
      So why do people spend $2000 for a single tube for example?
      Why spent $5-$10k for a cart
      Why spend 15k for a set of speakers cause the drivers are only likely worth a few hundred bucks.
      Why spend 10k for an amp that has no more than a $1000 in parts contained within it?  So it cant be much better than an amp worth 5k can it??
      Were does the law of diminishing returns set in wrt:
      Transport,
      DAC,Preamp,
      AMP
      Speakers
      Room treatments and acoustics
      etc etc etc

      ie How does one define when is good enough, good enough???

      And it is really interesting that your experiences and mine differ like black and white.
      I have consistently found that the better the 'kit' the more difference the cables make because the greater the potential of the 'kit' to produce brilliance
      Such is life.

      And:
      "as already mentioned when the cost is higher than the kit its connecting then its time to shout wolf"
      True words perhaps but in Nathans case we are talking amplification circa $15k and speakers circa $12ik sh ono, plus the rest of the front end is up to a similar standard
      \So let me do my math
      Speaker cables $3k
      Amp+Speakers say $25k

      Close enough to 10%

      and if you wanna add interconnects for example then add the cost of the front end on before doing the maths again

      This information is shared with Nathans Ok to do so as I felt it appropriate to put this all in some sensible perspective.

      So what % do you reckon is on the right side of the diminishing returns law wrt cable cost in a system????

      And how much should I realistically spend on each of the other components to get a sound quality that I will be happy with????????????


      If Nathan had a couple of thousand buck Harvey Norman HiFi then i would concur with your point of view.  But he deosn't.

      Like a lot of us he has made sacrifices in other areas to save the $ to get to where he wanted to over a period of quite some years I am sure.
      And I am sure, like a lot of us, he also looks some days at what he has invested into audio, shakes his head and walks out the room. :o :o :o :o :o

      Offline rawl99

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      Re: Essence gZero
      « Reply #26 on: February 14, 2014, 03:48:43 PM »
      If people consider the cables to be 'stupid expensive' so be it.

      As I said, for me, for what they offered me, I considered them to be exceptionally good value.

      If you disagree, so be it

      Craig

      Craig,


      No worries, we'll leave it there, better all round for everyone.  ;)

      I think it will be a good excuse for a gtg / listening sesh / few beers :)

      Nathan,

      I hope I haven't made you feel uncomfortable or out of place here - sincerest apologies if I have.

      Over the few phone conversations I have had with yourself and your wife I can tell you guys are great people so:

      as Kajak says - enjoy the journey!

      Tez

      Good Plan my Friend.

      C

      Offline rawl99

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      Re: Essence gZero
      « Reply #27 on: February 14, 2014, 03:52:35 PM »
      Yes building one's collection of tapes need's dedication and a deep wallet.  I was merely commenting on  how I'd spend 3 K to improve a system.  I think I'd also rather have a top flight tuner and aerial as this brings into one's life a huge amount of music which you'd probably not get exposed to normally.  Horses for courses. ;D

      Incremental difference do exist between various manufacturers of cables as we all informed types know but once you breach the figures I mentioned the effects / improvements become very system dependent IMV.  I suppose if you are cashed up then fair enough, blow the money and more importantly, support local manufactures!  ;D

      Yeah know what you mean, your new cables will make all source components sound better, no argument there.  It's just my view that there are other things to get right first.  Labouring the point a bit:

        • source including great music
        • speakers
        • amp
        • Interconnects
        • Speaker cable
        • equipment supports
        • Mains feed

        Great music is the KEY as far as I am concerned as even low price kit can sound good fed the right diet of music.
        Just my tuppenth worth!  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
        V[/list]

        I've already stirred up the honey bees around here - have to get the smoker out!  :)

        However, this is pretty close to how I see it and IMO an even handed effective approach.

        PS Double emphasis on that first one - great music.   ;)


        Z


         


        T,

        and I think the saddest part is there seems to be less and less of superbly put together new music form a production quality pov.

        There are some great new artists putting together some really creative stuff so if you can prod some of your sound-mates to produce it very nicely we may be able to get a direct-to-market thing going with some of the local talent rather than a lot of the very poorly put together commercial suff.

        C

        Offline rawl99

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        Re: Essence gZero
        « Reply #28 on: February 14, 2014, 04:10:59 PM »
        Yes building one's collection of tapes need's dedication and a deep wallet.  I was merely commenting on  how I'd spend 3 K to improve a system.  I think I'd also rather have a top flight tuner and aerial as this brings into one's life a huge amount of music which you'd probably not get exposed to normally.  Horses for courses. ;D

        Incremental difference do exist between various manufacturers of cables as we all informed types know but once you breach the figures I mentioned the effects / improvements become very system dependent IMV.  I suppose if you are cashed up then fair enough, blow the money and more importantly, support local manufactures!  ;D

        Yeah know what you mean, your new cables will make all source components sound better, no argument there.  It's just my view that there are other things to get right first.  Labouring the point a bit:

          • source including great music
          • speakers
          • amp
          • Interconnects
          • Speaker cable
          • equipment supports
          • Mains feed

          Great music is the KEY as far as I am concerned as even low price kit can sound good fed the right diet of music.
          Just my tuppenth worth!  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
          V[/list]

          V.

          I will happily give you more than Tuppence for your viewpoints here Sir.
          Nail on Head.
          Without great music no system,  no matter how cheap, or how expensive or how well put together will sound great.  That I agree is the most important take-home fact.

          The order of the things in your list I find varies depending upon the type of component.
          eg Mains feed:   with heavily regulated gear makes little difference, with virtually unregulated gear it makes a lot of difference.
          Speakers... agree fully.
          Equipment support is a funny one and I don't actually agree with your position on the list.  I have taken some very average sounding systems (at various system price points) and by proper isolation transformed them into really nice sounding set-ups.
          'Proper' seems to vary by device as one size ime does not in any way fit all.
          I can change the material of the isolation platform under my DAC for example and completely transform the resultant sound from beautiful, resolved and engaging, to quite cool and lean and lacking in warmth and engagement.  Much greater than the change from a cable.

          But without a great IC cable the sense of the change is limited.
          Speaeker cable and IC very similar effect pretty much as you write.

          All well-designed amps are indistinguishable!! Didn't you know?  So you can delete that from your list or at list put it at the bottom in its rightful position.


          And to finish:
          "Incremental difference do exist between various manufacturers of cables as we all informed types know but once you breach the figures I mentioned the effects / improvements become very system dependent IMV"

          And yet Nathans comments mirrored my experiences that he experienced a profound difference with the cables this time as opposed to the incremental differences he had heard in the past.

          So are you saying that there is no such thing as a well-designed cable but merely one that happens to suit 'your' system as it stands at any point in time??????
          So why not go and buy a collection of $50 cables and use them to tune whatever components one happens to have together at any given point in time??

          Curious as to your views good Sir

          C

          Offline stevenvalve

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #29 on: February 14, 2014, 04:16:37 PM »
          What if you had a preamp and a power amp in one (integrated). Then had the exactly same thing, but two separated components, (pre and power) so the only real difference was the interconnects that joins them together. Then you used many different types of interconnect cables with the separates, and with some interconnects the sound was better, sometimes much better than with the integrated.  What is that telling you....................  

          Offline gamve

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #30 on: February 14, 2014, 04:41:16 PM »
          What if you had a preamp and a power amp in one (integrated). Then had the exactly same thing, but two separated components, (pre and power) so the only real difference was the interconnects that joins them together. Then you used many different types of interconnect cables with the separates, and with some interconnects the sound was better, sometimes much better than with the integrated.  What is that telling you....................  

          Your using the wrong wire in the integrated.. Tee Hee. Sorry Steve just being a smartarse

          Offline ozmillsy

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #31 on: February 14, 2014, 05:01:50 PM »
          They cant be the same,  they are by design,  different.

          Integrated's have 1 power supply.   Seperates have seperate power supplies.  This changes the circuit design,  which changes everything.

          But I am out of my depth on this point, so will merely concur that wire can make a dramatic difference.
          It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

          Offline gamve

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #32 on: February 14, 2014, 07:46:53 PM »
          They cant be the same,  they are by design,  different.

          Integrated's have 1 power supply.   Seperates have seperate power supplies.  This changes the circuit design,  which changes everything.

          But I am out of my depth on this point, so will merely concur that wire can make a dramatic difference.

          Yes that's a point Andrew but there were good quality integrateds that had discrete power supplies for the different sections. It is not that
          unusual. No argument that all connections, everything from materials metallurgy, type of contact point, type of insulation, size etc all play a part.
          Just sometimes the simplest connection as per a piece of wire with two solder joints is hard to make better.

          Offline stevenvalve

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #33 on: February 14, 2014, 09:50:03 PM »
          I am saying, do interconnects, speaker cables, add something, sometimes nice, and oviously sometimes not, does that mean they are adding something. Is a great expensive speaker cable (like Nathans) letting the truth through, or is it actually adding a nice quality that may not be there, if the amps where built into the speakers (No speaker cables)  
          « Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 09:52:40 PM by stevenvalve »

          Offline zenelectro

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #34 on: February 14, 2014, 10:06:36 PM »
          I am saying, do interconnects, speaker cables, add something, sometimes nice, and oviously sometimes not, does that mean they are adding something. Is a great expensive speaker cable (like Nathans) letting the truth through, or is it actually adding a nice quality that may not be there, if the amps where built into the speakers (No speaker cables)  

          Bingo - Post of the week! 

          Go and claim your prize :)

          Z


          Offline ozmillsy

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #35 on: February 15, 2014, 07:37:38 AM »
          Always challenging us to think differently, onya Mate. But Steven, surely it could be 'either'.

           In this example, given Rawls description, it appears to be letting more through.  If capacitance is a factor, probably letting through.  

          But either way, does it matter? As long as we acknowledge that cables (all types) can and do change the sound, and quite often this can be dramatic (not just an incremental change).

          I guess if it's adding something to the mix,  you could cook up a similar kaleidoscope recipe, using different (cheaper) items.    Hard work though.
          « Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 09:06:52 AM by ozmillsy »
          It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

          Offline zenelectro

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #36 on: February 15, 2014, 01:08:38 PM »
          Always challenging us to think differently, onya Mate. But Steven, surely it could be 'either'.

           In this example, given Rawls description, it appears to be letting more through.  If capacitance is a factor, probably letting through.  

          But either way, does it matter? As long as we acknowledge that cables (all types) can and do change the sound, and quite often this can be dramatic (not just an incremental change).

          I guess if it's adding something to the mix,  you could cook up a similar kaleidoscope recipe, using different (cheaper) items.    Hard work though.

          WRT cooking - you can chase your tail a bit. IMV go far cables that are as much an 'open window' as you can - there are a few gotchas.

          I gave the post of the week to SV because I think he hit one of the biggest truths of hi end.

          It's always one of the very first things I ask myself when listening to something: Am I hearing what is actually there or am I hearing the result of something being added, if so what is it

          IME, as a generalization, massive subjective single improvements are often additive. Incremental improvements usually subtractive or - hearing more what's there. There are always exceptions.

          Also as a generalization if the sound appears generally louder it's nearly always additive and the same applies if it moves forward 'out in to the room' as opposed to back.  

          It's a very deep subject and the only way to really know is do the recordings yourself but IMV you need some of both ie; great transparency but also some sweetness added.

          Z

          Offline stevenvalve

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #37 on: February 15, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »
          Always challenging us to think differently, onya Mate. But Steven, surely it could be 'either'.

           In this example, given Rawls description, it appears to be letting more through.  If capacitance is a factor, probably letting through.  

          But either way, does it matter? As long as we acknowledge that cables (all types) can and do change the sound, and quite often this can be dramatic (not just an incremental change).

          I guess if it's adding something to the mix,  you could cook up a similar kaleidoscope recipe, using different (cheaper) items.    Hard work though.
          Yes all components change the sound, audio cables are just another tool in tuning a system.

          Offline onthebeach

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #38 on: February 15, 2014, 03:59:36 PM »
          My phrase of 'stupidly expensive' was a throw away line and one in hindsight with the connotations it suggests, I probably would not have used (of these SCs being too expensive or not a 'good value for money' addition to my system). I humbly apologise for any offence caused along the way. If I had spent as much R&D, time & energy on a product as good as this and an early adopter used that phrase I could possible take offence.

          I have never contemplated spending anything near that sort of money on cables until very recently so my head is partially still in the camp of any cable over say 1K being 'stupidly expensive'. Its only really over the past couple of years that I have learnt from experience that cables can make a difference in the SQ. Sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better and sometimes just different. Previously neither my ears nor my system were up to hearing or showing these differences.

          A better way to phrase it would have been 'Yes Steven, any cable of this price is indeed expensive but these SCs relatively speaking with consideration of the cost of the rest of my system and the results they have bought to the table are for me, in my system an investment that I am really really happy with'.

          Most around here and including myself up until very recently probably feel this sort of money is crazy (stupid) for cables. Its common for people on hifi forums to justify their big new purchase so I don't want to rave too much about how happy I am with them and how happy I am with the 'bang for the buck' they have given me. I'll leave that to those with far more experience comparing systems and cables. But I guess with the 'stupid expensive' phrase I was trying to get across that like most around here I have always thought spending so much on cables is risky at best. My budget for the year on component purchases is pretty much gone on these cables so its not as if I have loads of cash to throw away on expensive cables. Again 'stupidly expensive' being a recently relative term was in my head when I wrote that.

          Rawl is correct that in consideration of the ratio of the RRP of amp and speakers the cost of the SCs is not so bad. Don't get me wrong, I wish I could have spent way way less than that and still get SCs that do for my system what these cables of KL's have done. But it hasn't happened. My system was at the stage where I really felt like a decent pair of SCs may be a good move for me. I was happy with the Van den Hul Skyline Hybrids I was using which were slightly better than the ETI Quinessence 1000s I was using before them. I spoke to Rawl about this well over 12 months back and at that time I would have envisaged a very decent set of SCs to have set me back around the $800 - $1000 mark.

          So yes when initially finding out the RRP of the Essence gZeros I really did think they were 'stupidly expensive' but knowing Rawls experience and trusting what he appreciates in audio playback (the Kdac sound) I bought my head around to giving them a whirl.

          They blow any of my previous SCs out of the water - in a way that I didnt think was possible with cables. But once again a gushing lad who has just unloaded a pack of cash on gear should never be trusted on forums. But everyone around here knows that as we have all been on that particular treadmill. Which is why we are here. We want value and not hifi magazine bullsh!t hype. I've had a gutful of that rubbish and have spent truly stupid money on crap. But since I first spoke to SG on the blower for about 3 hours a few years back and getting to know some handy types around this site, I don't think I've wasted a cent. What I have bought in the way of Kdac, isolation, transport, transport mods, transport zen clock and now a very very fine set of SCs have all helped me inch closer and closer to a sound that I can actually listen to with pleasure.

          So I need to do a backflip. A month ago I thought this amount spent on cables to be stupidly and excessively expensive. Now? Well I see my Essence gZero SCs as a separate component that has really helped with the coming together of the sound I have been wanting for some time and quite possibly have helped my big Vaf i93mk2's sound as good as they are going to get. As hedalfa rightly points out the axiom 80s are sitting in a cardboard box in my garage waiting for right time to get some cabinets made which will no doubt take things to another notch and will take these cables to another level as well. Which is a pleasantly scary idea for me to ponder.

          From what Rawl has said in this thread and from my own listening experience these cables are obviously pretty special things. For me they have defiantly been a very good value purchase. I'm not giving them back that's for sure.

          Unfortunately I'll be in Bali during the Canberra GTG. Boo hoo. Maybe I could look at posting them down to you guys for that weekend though. Then you will get to check them out in a couple of different systems.

          cheers all

          Nathan



          Offline onthebeach

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          Re: Essence gZero
          « Reply #39 on: February 15, 2014, 04:21:35 PM »



          Nathan,

          I hope I haven't made you feel uncomfortable or out of place here - sincerest apologies if I have.

          Over the few phone conversations I have had with yourself and your wife I can tell you guys are great people so:

          as Kajak says - enjoy the journey!

          Tez

          Noooo mate not at all. Far from it. You have touched on some really interesting ideas that are more than valid. You havent said anything that could remotely be taken by anyone as rude to make them feel uncomfortable or out of place. Certainly no apology necessary. I'm not the sort of character that gets put out by that sort of stuff anyway but even if I was there is nothing here from you or anyone else for that matter for me to feel put out or uncomfortable.

          But thanks for caring and thanks for those kind words and thanks for the zenclock ...its figgin awesome man. :-*

          Yes enjoy the journey. Too true. Wise words from the west.