Author Topic: What is the ultimite amplifier  (Read 8966 times)

Offline hedalfa

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2014, 12:18:54 PM »
A good word you used earlier was resolution.   I was careful not to use detail aswell,  preferring to describe the KillerPre allowing us to see deeper into the music.   Like it's amplifying everything it's being fed, without relying on volume.    What I heard, was all of the goodness of the front end shining through.

Now,  I can certainly steer my Dac to the clean and detailed side,  or I can steer it towards being syrupy.   I've done it, with the choice of output tubes, dac chip and chokes.  I have settled on a combination that doesnt stray too far either way.   The overall system is now just ever so slightly leaning towards "clean",  which is no mean feat,  when we are working with Tannoys, vintage Radford, and Killer front end.   There is no silver anywhere.    The M3 pre is starting to work in nicely now, with the combination of cables at my disposal.   Is it perfect,  no,  but I reckon I'm further down the road than I have ever been.   :)       But to get deeper into the music, I need to crank it,  and if I go too far,  things start coming undone.


Thatís is a very clear and useful description,
ÖÖ.preferring to describe the KillerPre allowing us to see deeper into the music.   Like it's amplifying everything it's being fed, without relying on volume.  What I heard, was all of the goodness of the front end shining through.

Good that you have experienced the differences in leanness and syrup and have shaped the sound in the direction you want it to go.

Our approach more towards to lean or syrup can be influenced by suggestion, or group think. If one system is marked as coloured, vintage, all the metaphors because it sounds different to most, is that it is thought to be incorrect come from a perceived strength in holding a majority view. A study of history tells us there are many times where the majority are actually incorrect and itís the one and the few that are correct.  In the end Ill let emotional conveyance be the ultimate judge, all systems will have some limitations, though if you go to extremes you can eliminate many of them. If one way or another the system gets your toe tapping more than before and your getting the emotional connection, I doubt youíll have gone down a dead end.

I think also Stevenís point that he has tried to make a number of times itís the end game that really matters hasnít always been considered.

We have heard the phrase I just want whatís on the CD and we want more accurate recording equipment. Sounds logical, even common sense. Yet in the end the music has  got be reproduced. Feeding the speakers (if they are good ones) what they need to so a cello sounds like a cello is quite some feat, if it wasnít we could just go down and buy what we need and job done.  If whats fed to the speaker isnít actually correct its over flavored, but in the limitations of the speakers reproduction converting what its fed so it ends up sounding like a cello, thatís the end game. I understand some will never ever accept such an idea, for them its just hocus pokus. 

I wonder about some theoretical blind testing. Where people had to stand out side a room and couldnít see in it, and were asked was person inside playing for example the trumpet or was it just a sound system playing. This test would be done with people who had no interest in hi fi.  I wonder if they were ever fooled, what system would it be that fooled them?   




« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 12:25:29 PM by hedalfa »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2014, 12:49:42 PM »
'Synergy' being the key word.  But us audiophile's, DIY tweaker's & even designer's perception of synergy often differs. Sometimes greatly.   That means there is no ultimate 'right' and 'wrong' in this hobby, right? :)

If we agree with this, then really there is no such thing as 'the ultimate amplifier'.  Or 'ultimate' anything for that matter.

May be a little hard to digest for audiophiles who often have quite an 'extremist' point of view on how things should be done.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2014, 12:52:52 PM »
I wonder about some theoretical blind testing. Where people had to stand out side a room and couldnít see in it, and were asked was person inside playing for example the trumpet or was it just a sound system playing. This test would be done with people who had no interest in hi fi.  I wonder if they were ever fooled, what system would it be that fooled them?   
This has been done by Duntech (IIRC).   I'll see if I can find a pic.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2014, 12:57:12 PM »
'Synergy' being the key word.  But us audiophile's, DIY tweaker's & even designer's perception of synergy often differs. Sometimes greatly.   That means there is no ultimate 'right' and 'wrong' in this hobby, right? :)

If we agree with this, then really there is no such thing as 'the ultimate amplifier'.  Or 'ultimate' anything for that matter.
I honestly believe that is right on the money.    There is no right and wrong,  only what we perceive, and our preferences.    Alot of hifi arguments are circular,  and worse than that,  the same circular arguments are had over and over and over again (particularly on certain forums).

But,,, I'm thankful I've had the opportunity to experience very different systems,  and have exchanged ideas that I probably would not have thought about,   had I continued on my previous path.     So, there can be certain things that are consistently right,   but at the end of the day,  it's what you like, right.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2014, 01:15:31 PM »
This has been done by Duntech (IIRC).   I'll see if I can find a pic.

Would be fun to see that...

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2014, 01:22:07 PM »
This has been done by Duntech (IIRC).   I'll see if I can find a pic.
Would be fun to see that...

Here it is, short blurb on their website about it.    I'm sure there is a longer review of the comparison, kicking around somewhere,,,,,,

http://www.duntech.com.au/media/sovereign/professor.html
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2014, 01:32:22 PM »
According to this article,  the guitarist was John McLaughlin.

http://www.highendnews.info/reviews/DuntechSovereign-eng.htm

Quote
I remember reading an article where the Sovereign was compared to a live presentation by guitarist John McLaughlin. The board of listeners were supposedly unable to discern the recorded version from the live one.

Cant seem to find the original article anywhere.   You would have thought Duntech had it preserved, and published on their website?    Maybe it's lost?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2014, 01:42:59 PM »
'Synergy' being the key word.  But us audiophile's, DIY tweaker's & even designer's perception of synergy often differs. Sometimes greatly.   That means there is no ultimate 'right' and 'wrong' in this hobby, right? :)

If we agree with this, then really there is no such thing as 'the ultimate amplifier'.  Or 'ultimate' anything for that matter.

May be a little hard to digest for audiophiles who often have quite an 'extremist' point of view on how things should be done.

No ultimate 'right' and 'wrong' in this hobby, rightí. This is not strictly correct. If a speaker is either poorly designed or implemented for example, it can definitely be wrong, it will sound wrong by subjective and also objective measures. Say you have a speaker with a high fs 80hz or more and you feeding it heaps of bass heavy music, how will it sound?  Or you have the cabinet tuned  way wrong so theres a huge lump in the response, its wrong period.

If gross errors and defects are not evident in a system, then the discussion of preferences can proceed from there.  Thatís the starting point, and there are problems arenít in the individual components but room effects, Paul Spencer talks a lots about speaker placement and tuning, he is responding to a real problem.  Even the very best system can be undermined by lack of implementation, so there are flaws evident that would be minimised or not even evident after treatment.

ĎIf we agree with this, then really there is no such thing as 'the ultimate amplifier'.  Or 'ultimate' anything for that matterí

Agreed, but not quite for the same reasons. If something is ultimate its because its contribution to a system is such it potentially might not be equalled by anything else. We might conclude that in stevens systems no other loud speaker will equal the axiom 80.  Whethers thatís right, thatís  another debateÖ




« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 01:45:46 PM by hedalfa »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2014, 03:16:03 PM »
Speaking of Duntechs, checkout the little room these Sovereigns are in,,,,,,,

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlEZtZsF0us" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlEZtZsF0us</a>
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2014, 04:07:16 PM »
Western Electric 124B mono power amps.

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-western-electric-124b-mono-power-amp-legendary-ultra-rare-power-amp-2013-06-28-amplifiers-japan

Eargasms imminent!
Don't be surprized if its not as good as the name implies. I have had many Western electric Parts, all very expensive, including Western Electric NOS 274B and 274A rectifiers and 16uf- 400Volt mint paper in oil capacitors etc 300Bs . They are very good, but at this time, they have not found a home in my system. There has always been something slightly better. As an example I found the Dubilier paper and oil capacitors, 1950s England, to be ultimately better. Plus another problem Western electric anything, brings crazy money.   
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 01:39:26 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2014, 05:37:25 PM »
Good point Steven.

I myself must admit I am a little skeptical about the actual quantitative performance for some of the vintage WE gear too.  In particular the WE horn designs and compression drivers.   

Western Electric users and fanatics claiming it is the most realistic, natural, tonally accurate sound they have ever experienced in their life.  So much 'emotion in the music' comes through when listening to the systems.    Basically the 'ultimate' in terms of music reproduction, even to this very day!

Hard to argue when they talk about the system delivering them more 'emotions'.

Things do start to make some sense to me after I discover the majority of music many of them prefer to listen to.   Opera, classical and jazz from the around the era as the gear.      I'd maybe even find myself agreeing with them in this case.

But would the same system do justice to newer full-bandwidth recordings?  Maybe?  Probably not?  Who cares?

I guess it just peeves me off a little when I read online people talking in absolutes and their chosen path is the only way to 'the truth',  when clearly most things in this hobby are rather quite subjective.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 05:55:59 PM by Tuyen »

Offline Peter A

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2014, 08:39:40 PM »
Steve, the WE212E or STC 4212E is the ultimate audio amplifier tube.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2014, 01:44:33 AM »
Steve, the WE212E or STC 4212E is the ultimate audio amplifier tube.
I must admit Peter, They are awesome visual and sounding mono amplifiers. The inside of that STC tube looks a little red,  is that a little bit of thermal runaway, is that normal. Do you run them hard, That's very hot.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 01:49:12 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline Peter A

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2014, 10:07:58 PM »
Steve, that is a picture from Lucas Cant.  I normally run then with a very slight redness on the plate.  Lucas indicated he could not hear any difference between red hot and lightly red on the plate.  This is the tube for you.

Peter   

Offline Jehuty

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2014, 10:18:42 PM »
If Steve wants to use that mucho macho 4212 valves, he probably has to change his speakers...or use a preamp to control the volume.
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: What is the ultimite amplifier
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2014, 10:18:16 PM »
Subjective should be in red and capitalised, one mans meat is anothers poison in this hobby.  Yes the vintage WE gear is astounding in its ability to reproduce emotion but feed it some drum and bass and errrr, well not for everyone.  Maybe it exercises taste in only sounding fantastic on naturally reproduced music without all the electronic skullduggery.
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.