Author Topic: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons  (Read 4992 times)

Offline bhobba

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When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« on: March 22, 2014, 01:29:53 AM »
If the Weston products are very good sounding, I have no doubt people will buy regardless of the price. So, why the price should be the problem?

Well one thing you have to remember about Earle is he thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey.  So why spend extra on stuff he thinks makes no difference.

I know only too well that he has a very long waiting time and increasing - so I don't think selling his gear is an issue.

Thanks
Bill

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2014, 02:01:30 AM »
Well one thing you have to remember about Earle is he thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey.  Thanks
Bill
Does that mean he thinks all the people that by Duelund Capacitors are delusional. I would like to know Earle's thoughts on this.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 02:32:38 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2014, 06:34:24 AM »
Does that mean he thinks all the people that by Duelund Capacitors are delusional. I would like to know Earle's thoughts on this.
Earle offered to give away a 300B Weston amp, to anyone who could pick the difference between vsf's and Russian pio's (blind tested, on a system of his choice).

His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test,  but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps.   I walked away from it all for other reasons  [shrugs].
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 07:44:49 AM »
Earle offered to give away a 300B Weston amp, to anyone who could pick the difference between vsf's and Russian pio's (blind tested, on a system of his choice).

His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test,  but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps.   I walked away from it all for other reasons  [shrugs].

Right on the money here. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all. My first experience of this was at Nathans years ago when changes seemed to make almost no difference. Some things in the system chain can so dilute the effects of what would be a positive change if your heard it in a different setup that it makes no effective difference. So when people say there not hearing a difference, it doesn't mean they have cloth ears.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:47:21 AM by hedalfa »

Offline terry j

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 08:38:19 AM »
Earle offered to give away a 300B Weston amp, to anyone who could pick the difference between vsf's and Russian pio's (blind tested, on a system of his choice).

His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test,  but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps.   I walked away from it all for other reasons  [shrugs].

now the water's have subsided a little, what changes would you need to see to the proposed methodology that might resurrect any intellectual curiosity?

Offline terry j

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 08:45:26 AM »
Right on the money here. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all.

surely that is the problem right there? It could then NEVER be shown to you that, in these examples, the caps made no difference.

Your default position is that they do (and what is being tested is whether they do or not) hence any time they are shown not to make a difference you will not accept that because the goal posts will always be shifted because you will fall back to 'b', the system was not set up correctly.

Why? Because 'a' is true, if not then 'b'.

AND you have an inexhaustible list of reasons why (to borrow ozmillsys recent analogy) things are not so balanced at the top of the pyramid. There can never be an end to the contributing factors to 'b'.

once again you set these things up as non-falsifiable, and there is only one outcome your worldview can accept.

Offline skc

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 08:48:12 AM »
Other builders have similar problems.

I've never had that problem with Elson. Although he holds really strong opinions on most things (predominately from a cost:benefit perspective) he is really open to the idea using "OTT" components. What was interesting to me was when I gave him the Cast caps and Charcroft resistors to use on an amp build for me, after playing around with the oscilloscope etc he went onto describe how he thought the sound would change compared to the Mundorfs I was running previously - and he was spot on.  Similarly when I told him I wanted everything direct wired, he completely supported the notion.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2014, 09:24:21 AM »
If the difference cant be picked on Stevens axiom system, then we are all delusional.

I dont care for earles amp, or his rules on how the tests must be conducted.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 09:27:26 AM »
Terry

This is totally WRONG... I used the word 'If', theres no always or an absolute implied in what I wrote. If you cant write something more constructive then why do dont you go back to mixing concrete.

surely that is the problem right there? It could then NEVER be shown to you that, in these examples, the caps made no difference.

Your default position is that they do (and what is being tested is whether they do or not) hence any time they are shown not to make a difference you will not accept that because the goal posts will always be shifted because you will fall back to 'b', the system was not set up correctly.

Why? Because 'a' is true, if not then 'b'.

AND you have an inexhaustible list of reasons why (to borrow ozmillsys recent analogy) things are not so balanced at the top of the pyramid. There can never be an end to the contributing factors to 'b'.

once again you set these things up as non-falsifiable, and there is only one outcome your worldview can accept.

Offline terry j

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 09:58:07 AM »
oh dear oh dear, a few miscomprehension probs on a sat morning?

I know you do not care for the way he wanted to conduct it Oz, hence my asking what changes you would like to see.

hedalfa, yep, I am well aware of exactly what you wrote, after all I quoted it and commented upon it. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all.

There it is again so that we do not get lost anymore.

Now, quoting from that quote of yours let's answer the following hypothetical question (remember, using only your quote)

"Why might it be there was no difference heard between these caps?" The answer is 'the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable'.

Concrete, wonder where that two pound lump of concrete might be found this morning.

So the point stands, no matter how much you squirm or insult, you simply cannot accept that 'no difference' will be found and have a never ending supply of excuses why not.

And that is down to your rigid worldview that cannot allow any possible alternative explanations.

the very definition of fundamentalism one might say.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2014, 10:16:26 AM »
I know you do not care for the way he wanted to conduct it Oz, hence my asking what changes you would like to see.
I believe I gave you my answer.

Do it on Stevens system.   And if you want to BT it, then follow the basic (and accepted) ABX methodology.

None of this " AB,,XXXXXXXXXX"  get all the x's right or you lose bullsh!t.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline bhobba

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2014, 10:41:19 AM »
Does that mean he thinks all the people that by Duelund Capacitors are delusional. I would like to know Earle's thoughts on this.

Hi Steve

Its the blind testing thing mate.

Such people claim that people who hear differences are part of a group think phenomena that disappears when done blind.

Many of that ilk, and I am reasonably sure Earle doesn't belong to it because he has posted being able to, for example, pick the differences in amps blind, believe any competently designed equipment sounds the same.

It's unbelievable to I would say virtually everyone on this forum that hears such differences all the time.

Thanks
Bill

Offline bhobba

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2014, 10:47:46 AM »
His thoughts are well documented on SNA. I would have liked to see the outcome of that test,  but his BT approach was extremely poor, and I'm not convinced a cobbled together temporary system at the Bathurst GTG is a good vehicle to test caps.   I walked away from it all for other reasons  [shrugs].

Last I heard it never got off the ground.

To me it was a cautionary tale of just how hard blind tests are to do and why there is a dearth of them.

Mike is thinking of holding some more blind tests of amps and DAC's.

Good luck to him I say if he feels like doing the hard yards bringing it about.

Thanks
Bill

Offline terry j

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2014, 11:31:28 AM »
I believe I gave you my answer.

Do it on Stevens system.   And if you want to BT it, then follow the basic (and accepted) ABX methodology.

None of this " AB,,XXXXXXXXXX"  get all the x's right or you lose bullsh!t.

ah well, in that case it was MY misunderstanding, sorry.

you might be right in that stevens system is the most capable of showing these differences. And indeed he quite clearly does believe there are definite differences that can be heard on his system.

But if we go further, is there a reason (for example) that you did not say 'do the test on my system'? After all, (presumably) you claim to be able to hear these differences too?

See, as you nominated steves system as 'the one', is it not reasonable to extrapolate that many many other systems (including all of the ones on this forum) will not 'as easily' show these differences? Further, if we accept that, then for the everyday enthusiast who's systems are NOT of the standard of stevens it would in fact be true that those caps won't make a lick of difference?

What use then to them? Surely the funds spent on a cap upgrade that will not make a difference in their system could be better spent elsewhere?

Indeed, would it not be useful data to know what standard of system would benefit? That alone becomes an interesting question.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2014, 12:24:41 PM »
oh dear oh dear, a few miscomprehension probs on a sat morning?

I know you do not care for the way he wanted to conduct it Oz, hence my asking what changes you would like to see.

hedalfa, yep, I am well aware of exactly what you wrote, after all I quoted it and commented upon it. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all.

There it is again so that we do not get lost anymore.

Now, quoting from that quote of yours let's answer the following hypothetical question (remember, using only your quote)

"Why might it be there was no difference heard between these caps?" The answer is 'the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable'.

Concrete, wonder where that two pound lump of concrete might be found this morning.

So the point stands, no matter how much you squirm or insult, you simply cannot accept that 'no difference' will be found and have a never ending supply of excuses why not.

And that is down to your rigid worldview that cannot allow any possible alternative explanations.

the very definition of fundamentalism one might say.

Terry J
You haven't made any point, theres multiple qualifiers used in what I wrote and its based on experience not theory.


Offline terry j

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2014, 12:52:14 PM »
Terry J
You haven't made any point, theres multiple qualifiers used in what I wrote and its based on experience not theory.

let's look.


Right on the money here. If the system your comparing changes on isn't really well sorted and capable you wont necessarily hear differences easily if at all. My first experience of this was at Nathans years ago when changes seemed to make almost no difference. Some things in the system chain can so dilute the effects of what would be a positive change if your heard it in a different setup that it makes no effective difference. So when people say there not hearing a difference, it doesn't mean they have cloth ears.


All qualifiers made regarding the capability of a system being able to expose cap differences highlighted.

The point stands. If you hear no difference it is because the system is not up to it. It will never be because there is no difference.


Offline stevenvalve

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2014, 02:20:33 PM »
Hi Steve

Its the blind testing thing mate.

Such people claim that people who hear differences are part of a group think phenomena that disappears when done blind.

Many of that ilk, and I am reasonably sure Earle doesn't belong to it because he has posted being able to, for example, pick the differences in amps blind, believe any competently designed equipment sounds the same.

It's unbelievable to I would say virtually everyone on this forum that hears such differences all the time.

Thanks
Bill
I think the Bottom line with the unreliability of blind testing, is one big word........ Memory, your individual ability the remember what it sounded like.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2014, 02:52:16 PM »
But if we go further, is there a reason (for example) that you did not say 'do the test on my system'? After all, (presumably) you claim to be able to hear these differences too?

Yes there is,  because I've never heard your system,  so how would I know?

Quote
See, as you nominated steves system as 'the one', is it not reasonable to extrapolate that many many other systems (including all of the ones on this forum) will not 'as easily' show these differences? Further, if we accept that, then for the everyday enthusiast who's systems are NOT of the standard of stevens it would in fact be true that those caps won't make a lick of difference?

Don't know, are you asking me to speculate?     I could easily hear the difference on my SGR solid state system,  when we swapped Solens for VSFs on my front end dac.     

Quote
Indeed, would it not be useful data to know what standard of system would benefit? That alone becomes an interesting question.
Sure.    Any system requires experimentation on what works, and what doesn't work.   

If Earle thinks the caps make bugger all difference on his amps,  and on his system,   that's ok.   I'm happy to acknowledge this as fact, as surely he should know what works and doesn't work with his gear?  :-X   
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 02:54:47 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline terry j

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2014, 03:04:08 PM »
no time now oz, but just to clear I never meant MY system, ie that question about 'listen on my system' was meant to have come from you if you follow.

sorry for the confusion.


Offline stevenvalve

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Re: When A Tree Falls - Cap comparisons
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2014, 03:05:06 PM »
Well one thing you have to remember about Earle is he thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey.  So why spend extra on stuff he thinks makes no difference.

I know only too well that he has a very long waiting time and increasing - so I don't think selling his gear is an issue.

Thanks
Bill
Here is the thing I have a problem understanding, how does any audio manufacturer including Earle make a top class components if they think and will freely admit (Earle thinks Duelunds etc are, or at least may be, all hoohey) Does he think the same regarding resistors, say Shinkoh verses jay car. If he does not hear changes in parts via blind testing, does that mean (to him) there are no differences. To me you need to hear these subtle minute changes in sound, as you slowly replace parts in an ordered controlled fashion until you arrived at a combination that ultimately makes magic. I have always had confidence in my own hearing, and never thought for one second, I am imagining an improvement and therefore need to blind test the result. Blind tests are a waste of time, Why, one's individual memory of what did it sound like 10 minutes ago.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 01:21:51 PM by stevenvalve »