Author Topic: Copper versus silver what to use  (Read 12355 times)

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2014, 08:35:59 AM »
What the gZero6 is made out of is interesting,  but apart from the plugs we dont really know, its proprietary.  We'd have to open it up to be really sure.

But I say, does it matter?   We've already established that different types of silver sounds different.    And also that the Pure Harmony plugs are pure silver,  and do in fact sound good.

What matters is the result, not what it is made out of.

The type of wire is only relevant when you want to roll your own.    It's a fiddly job.   Can seem like a good idea at the time,  but is time consuming when you dont do them often.

It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2014, 08:45:27 AM »
There should not be flavour's, the thing that matters is does your system sound like that Cello or Violin, guitar, or whatever you just heard live, But it is true, some do not care if it sounds like real music. I do, because real is why we are here.

Id second that BIG TIME..... :)

Offline brenden

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2014, 09:39:16 PM »
Hi Steven ,I would love to listen to the gzero6 . I know what you are saying re silver .It spotlights the upper mids ,lower highs  which causes an imbalance ,like a lack of warmth . I think this can be corrected somewhat with careful choice of diameters .

    Silver and plastics don't seem to be the ideal partners either .

   I am still refining some aspects to my cables ,but have had some personal setbacks which have slowed progress .

          Spare "my" time at the moment is devoted to tuning my CD94 mk2 ,and Stax CAX pro ,so that I can enjoy listening after a 6 year hiatus  due to a couple of little boys that needed attention .

          by the way ,I have owned pure gold  cable and it is actually in the opposite tonality to silver ,with copper being in the middle .Gold has awesome bass ,is extremely warm ,and possibly a little polite on top .combination of gold and silver would be wonderful but gold wire is extremely expensive , difficult to work with,and breaks easily.Platinum has incredible detail but lacks warmth of copper .Palladium sits between silver and platinum .I would like to play more with a platinum copper combo one day to see if it could be balanced .Bear in mind that diameters will change the tonality .I  just believe silver can be tamed,or at least the gap can be closed a lot and still hear the benefits of silver .

    Other components have imbalances from neutral like capacitors and resistors .To use an analogy silver is like a Cerafine cap ,and copper is like a Silmic  .Its how we use them that can make or break the sound .Personally I think the Starget is more neutral than either of the ,but that's off the track .

  Using annealed silver is critical .hard silver is just bright and irritating .
 
         

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2014, 10:31:11 PM »
.

  Using annealed silver is critical .hard silver is just bright and irritating .
 
         
That is good to know, I need to try some.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2014, 10:34:00 PM »
Bear in mind that diameters will change the tonality .
Hey Brenden.   Can you tell us more about your experience with different diameter wire, when used on IC's.   Have you found consistent tonal changes when moving from thicker to thinner, or vice versa?  What has been the change in tone?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline brenden

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2014, 11:11:24 PM »
Hi Oz , with silver, 24g is probably the most neutral, if you use just one  single wire for  both  positive and negative  .Using a thicker wire like a 22g will give you more bass and also less treble .Going thinner ,26g for example will give you a more typical brighter silver sound .

  You can use a different sized wire for the positive and negative  and you will get a bit of both .say a 22g on negative  and a 26g on positive  will give a reasonably balanced sound .If you like it warmer ,change the 26g to a 24g .

     To get everything ,you need to use a range of diameters .With quality silver, this can get expensive . I don't recommend using larger than 22g or possibly 20g for line level ,as the bass can become too ponderous .

   Speaker cable can go larger maybe down to 16g ,but still needs a range of smaller  gauges to to maintain frequency  balance   .

         You can see how easily it can get complicated and expensive to get perfect ,especially if you want your cable to be litz style .

    In a nut shell thin wires sound brighter ,and thicker wires sound warmer, or  have more bass .The amount of combinations can keep you occupied for a long time .

        This doesn't seem to apply to gold ,which sounds very  warm, even with very  thin wire smaller than 30g .

     

             

Offline brenden

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2014, 11:28:37 PM »
As a curiosity ,the same comments about  gauges also  applies to digital cable .
   Try it .See what you think .

Offline PingPing

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2014, 11:57:56 PM »
Hi brenden, isn't all silver wire annealed in one form or another?  Does that mean that all silver plugs are annealed or not annealed?

Offline brenden

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2014, 12:13:13 AM »
No ping ,  not all silver is  annealed.It normally needs to be specified .  Plugs also wont be annealed as the silver  pin would bend too easily .This would require a modified design .I have done a lot of tinkering on plugs also and have a couple of prototypes ,but nothing settled .Annealed silver bends very easily ,even with thick wire .

    Silver for audio  also needs to be at least 4 nines pure .  99.99

      .

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2014, 08:23:40 AM »
Thanks brenden, that's consistent with the advise from Steven.

And of course the tone changes with different types of copper aswell.    I do find neotech ofccc quite amazing, even in the thicker gauges, the sound just seems to flow unrestricted with neotech and doesn't tend to bloat.

I will be buying some 24awg neotech, so I can compare to the IC I've just made.

It also gets interesting when we start to play with solid core vs stranded.  And when it comes to stranded there is no shortage of combinations, to play with for the rest of our lives.  :) but I do have a preference for solid core.

It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline PingPing

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2014, 09:47:16 AM »
Hi stevenvalve, aren't the Yamamura 5000 ICs stranded ofc copper...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 10:46:45 AM by PingPing »

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2014, 04:56:50 PM »
Hi stevenvalve, aren't the Yamamura 5000 ICs stranded ofc copper...
That is open to debate,

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2014, 06:15:39 PM »
That is open to debate,

I thought they were tubular copper - or is that the speaker cable.

These days I'm thinking a combination of a few gauges, individually insulated might be worth a try.
However the insulation is certainly an important factor.

I remember completely re wiring a Marshall JTM45 using P2P / turret board, all solid core 0.7mm copper and Teflon insulation.
It looked awesome and had immense detail, but for sure some natural warmth was missing. (See pic)

More recently I was mucking around with an old P2P Marshall 100W and used SC copper 0.7mm with cotton outer / Celanese inner
insulation - I think it may also has some wax in there. Even a moderate amount of this stuff around V1 in the front end made the amp sound very natural.

So for me I'm moving toward cotton type insulation. There are a few variations, one is impregnation with various wax or paraffin products.

As Oz was pointing out It can be somewhat endless!

Good fun though.

Z

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2014, 08:03:19 PM »
Zen,  I found a big difference between Neotech with teflon insulation,  compared to Neotech stripped nude and inserted into wider teflon tubing (effectively ensuring an air gap around most of the wire).

For me, the nude approach provides a natural vibrancy that is quite intoxicating.   It doesnt sound skewed (warm or cold), just 'free'.

I should try cotten sleeving though, and compare.   I have some lying around I got from Mario and never used.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline brenden

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2014, 10:40:47 PM »
Now you guys are getting on to it .

   Oz ,the Neotech UPOCC  is the cream of  current commercial  wires , both the copper and silver . Large diameter Teflon insulation does work well .I have a mate that wont give my Neotech  UPOCC silver cable back ,and that is still insulated .
     
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Neotech wont sell uninsulated wire .It is not their policy .

          So  the only real option to test the wire with different insulation is to strip it .
 
          Zen,you are closer than you think with your comments .I use a treatment to impregnate the silk or cotton which I don't want to  divulge ,as I have sunk a lot  of time and money into this .Wax or paraffin would work well also in my opinion .Wire resonates ,and really needs some resonance control .

      The Neotech wire goes by the name UPOCC .  There are only a couple of companies that are licensed to manufacture it .Furutech equivalent is PCOCC .

         The lasting impression of this wire is purity  and lack of grain .   
 
    I am currently using an imported  high quality silver  that sounds really  nice ,but haven't been able to make an equivalent in Neotech ,as the suppy for the different silver  gauges is difficult ,but I do have some ideas .   
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 11:53:47 PM by brenden »

Offline Jehuty

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2014, 11:07:54 PM »
I remember completely re wiring a Marshall JTM45 using P2P / turret board, all solid core 0.7mm copper and Teflon insulation.
It looked awesome and had immense detail, but for sure some natural warmth was missing. (See pic)

Fantastic work Zen, I really like it!
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2014, 11:52:57 PM »
Fantastic work Zen, I really like it!

Many thanks.

FWIW those caps are called Sozo and are basically a modern copy of the old Mullard mustards.

Z

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 12:27:05 AM »
Now you guys are getting on to it .

   Oz ,the Neotech UPOCC  is the cream of  current commercial  wires , both the copper and silver . Large diameter Teflon insulation does work well .I have a mate that wont give my Neotech  UPOCC silver cable back ,and that is still insulated .
     
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Neotech wont sell uninsulated wire .It is not their policy .

          So  the only real option to test the wire with different insulation is to strip it .
 
          Zen,you are closer than you think with your comments .I use a treatment to impregnate the silk or cotton which I don't want to  divulge ,as I have sunk a lot  of time and money into this .Wax or paraffin would work well also in my opinion .Wire resonates ,and really needs some resonance control .

      The Neotech wire goes by the name UPOCC .  There are only a couple of companies that are licensed to manufacture it .Furutech equivalent is PCOCC .

         The lasting impression of this wire is purity  and lack of grain .   
 
    I am currently using an imported  high quality silver  that sounds really  nice ,but haven't been able to make an equivalent in Neotech ,as the suppy for the different silver  gauges is difficult ,but I do have some ideas .

Bare OCC copper is available at Partsconnexion and also this place  http://www.audiyo.com/product_desc2_cables.php?plid=3&cat=19&cat2=177

I'm interested in their conductive sleeving for microphone cables which need to be shielded  http://www.audiyo.com/product_desc2.php?plid=4&cat=7&cat2=76

Have fun.

Z

Offline brenden

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 01:02:37 AM »
Thanks Zen.I am aware of that one .Its not Neotech as they assure me they wont entertain selling bare wire.I am aware of a Chinese company supposedly selling OCC wire  but as far as I can work out they are not licensed for OCC.I think its probable this is where parts connexion source it from.
   The bare wire on ebay is fake .
  I will look into audiyo  but think it could also be the chinese wire otherwise it would be shouted out if it was furutch or Neotech . Thanks for the tip.  I will see what other goodies they have .

    Are u making zen clocks still ?  If so what do they cost?
      Cheers.

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Copper versus silver what to use
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 01:32:21 AM »
Thanks Zen.I am aware of that one .Its not Neotech as they assure me they wont entertain selling bare wire.I am aware of a Chinese company supposedly selling OCC wire  but as far as I can work out they are not licensed for OCC.I think its probable this is where parts connexion source it from.
   The bare wire on ebay is fake .
  I will look into audiyo  but think it could also be the chinese wire otherwise it would be shouted out if it was furutch or Neotech . Thanks for the tip.  I will see what other goodies they have .

    Are u making zen clocks still ?  If so what do they cost?
      Cheers.

Will Pm you tomorrow WRT zenclock

cheers

Z