WHICH AUDIO CAPACITOR?

[tuyen]

WHICH AUDIO CAPACITOR?   (Extract taken from http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/elna_capacitors.html)

Which capacitor to use is difficult to determine without actually trying. It depends on too many factors. To hear the potential of a certain part, it's often nessecary to change other parts too. Experimenting with different combinations is a more solid way to lift a design to a higher level. In principle the original music signal has to be preserved as much as possible, but it's difficult to tell which parts do. For analysing a music signal (harmonic structures changing in time), our ears are still the most useful instrument. But we're all calibrated differently. To some a SILMIC adds color and warmth and a Black Gate FK sounds neutral. To others a SILMIC sounds neutral because it exactly reproduces natural colors and warmth from the recording, a Black Gate FK sounds more 'hifi' to them, making the signal more pulsed, peaky (giving attack) and too clean (filtering out natural timbres).

Often a combination of different (high quality) capacitors in the right places gives the best result. Best thing is to try yourself and trust your ears. Still, we want to mention some general characteristics as a rough guideline (of course these are our personal, biased, subjective experiences). These characters apply for capacitors used either in the signal path or in the power supply (for digital different rules apply, but there are simularities as well). Lower voltage versions of a capacitor can offer more refinement (it's faster, gives more presence towards the mid-highs).

The SILMIC II is best for reproducing different timbres, natural colors and warmth in a recording. It offers most presence in the low-mid range with lots of texture (tangible). Bass is round and warm, the mid and highrange are very refined, 'silky', quiet, but with lots of openess (more open than CERAFINE, less open than Black Gate FK).

The CERAFINE is also very good for reproducing different timbres, natural colors, but has a more direct sound than SILMIC (less direct than Black Gate FK). Bass is round and warm, the midrange has most presence and the high range is lively.

The Black Gate FK has the most open and clean sound, with the main presence in the high range. It sounds thinner, offers somewhat less texture and timbre. It offers most pulse, attack in both the low, mid and high ranges.

[stevenvalve]

Not a bad read, I agree with some of the findings. But it is always better not to use any electrolytics at all if you can. But space can be a problem.

[audiophool]

Think I might have read that before, still I just the other day changed out the generic cathode bypass elytics on the input and power tubes for Silmic II - only a day in yet but I am pretty happy with the improvement resulting from that.

[Erik van Voorst]

Not a bad read, I agree with some of there findings. But it is always better not to use any electrolytics at all if you can. But space is can be a problem.

You know I actually disagree with that.....mind you I started to disagree only after my own experience...

At one particular time I was able to buy an incredible amount of big Rank Xerox Teflon Capacitors 25 (or so) uF/500V.
I made two big cases for them and was able to stack them and hereby replace all Audio Research Electrolytics in my SP pre-amp.
Wiring completely silver etc etc etc...
It gave indeed a substantial improvement.....however after a few years I had a couple of Jenssen Oil capacitors and a couple of Black-Gates....
A quick replacement experiment gave again a major improvement....

I do agree that if you can alter the circuit in order to ditch both it will be for the better....

So I am not so outspoken any longer...the proof is in the hearing...

(You see the size of them in the pre-amp....the rest is divided over 3 boxes....)

[stevenvalve]

Not a bad read, I agree with some of there findings. But it is always better not to use any electrolytics at all if you can. But space is can be a problem.

You know I actually disagree with that.....mind you I started to disagree only after my own experience...

At one particular time I was able to buy an incredible amount of big Rank Xerox Teflon Capacitors 25 (or so) uF/500V.
I made two big cases for them and was able to stack them and hereby replace all Audio Research Electrolytics in my SP pre-amp.
Wiring completely silver etc etc etc...
It gave indeed a substantial improvement.....however after a few years I had a couple of Jenssen Oil capacitors and a couple of Black-Gates....
A quick replacement experiment gave again a major improvement....

I do agree that if you can alter the circuit in order to ditch both it will be for the better....

So I am not so outspoken any longer...the proof is in the hearing...

(You see the size of them in the pre-amp....the rest is divided over 3 boxes....)

That tells me that the Rank Xerox Teflon Capacitors you used originally where poor sounding.  Some Jensen Oil electrolytics capacitors are very good. Black-Gates are overrated rubbish, can be  good in some places, but not for me,

[Erik van Voorst]

That is also a way of looking at it...
Mind you they were better sounding than the standard Siemens Capacitors inside the famous Audio Research...

[vitavoxdude]

Steve, black gates are rubbish, please elaborate.
V

[stevenvalve]

Steve, black gates are rubbish, please elaborate.
V

First of all where do we start on Black Gate capacitors. They have many attributes, very open very clean, great 3 dimensional sound stage. not to bright not to dark, But they are poor in the areas that matter. They have a sterile quality, strangely uninvolving, boring, no real flesh and bone of timber, a sameness in tumbrel colour, you can say very HIFI sounding, not real, artificial if you like, In this case the pulses of a big sound stage is not a blessing because, they may spread the sound out with the bigger sound stage, but thin out the solidarity of that image, the flesh and bone, and very importantly have very very poor lower mid range weight, and i must say, they have very poor weight overall, they are anaemic, bland, lacking the warm and the cold shades of real music, a sameness to the fabric of the music, a one note sound that predominates the music, not very natural and again without the shades of vocal and tonal colour you need to have for greatness. They do not have that sense of rightness at makes you feel this is real, and just forgetting its a hifi system, In my opinion they are very threadbare, HIFI sounding caps and unbelievably overrated and overpriced. I have even run these things in super E mode, I have given up on them.  But it is not just a matter of price. they do not belong in a supreme quality music system. Just because they have some great quality's can not make up for what they do wrong.  In an average system these problems may not be as apparent. but they stand out like John Holmes appendage, if you put one in an already truly magical system. If you are using them and think they are great, that is telling you something.

[gthicm]

Steve,

Just for clarification, is it your position that the Balckgate cap is not good used anywhere, other than for signal path decoupling?  Are they as bad in power suply filtering, say, for a digital power supply, as bypass caps or as decoupling caps for the TDA1541A chip?  I think the context needs to be made clear.  Also, I understand that you have similar attitudes about smd devices?

[stevenvalve]

Steve,

Just for clarification, is it your position that the Balckgate cap is not good used anywhere, other than for signal path decoupling?  Are they as bad in power suply filtering, say, for a digital power supply, as bypass caps or as decoupling caps for the TDA1541A chip?  I think the context needs to be made clear.  Also, I understand that you have similar attitudes about smd devices?

They (Balckgate caps) can be  good in the right spot. Power supply filtering is a good example. If the synergy is there, other places can also yield dividends. But, the big but, i am saying there will nearly aways be better non electro caps out there. For a start keep away from electrolytics period. (there are good ones) The right ELNAs are very good, Sanyo oscons but only the SG type, they are very good in digital circuits, even some types of Jensen's are fine. The main reason manufactures use electrolytic is often space considerations and obviously price, and anyway they can not get the great old stuff, even if they knew how great they can be. I do use some electrolytic caps, because of the (MF) size i need, but i know the sound of these intimately and chose accordingly, one with the right colouration's and other attributes i need. Never run a bypass cap. It may work in some systems especially in the  power supply filtering say. but it is a disaster almost anywhere else and often there too. You end up with a high frequency peak and a kind of brightness and an emphases on spity detail, The sound is no longer flat, but tilted towards to top end. It may have been fine in old amps with old slow rolled off vintage capacitors and such, but today we have fast clean extended caps, why put a whitish peak in there. That idea is still around, because that is what they used to do when caps where poor, and people tend to follow like trained seals. You can do it if you need to change the sound character of a cap, by putting on a bypass cap with a different colouration to help fix the first caps tonally, but just use a great cap with the right colouration's from the start. The bottom line in making a music system that sounds like real music, is putting a series of colouration's together, so that the end result sounds like real instruments. Neutrality is a load of sh!t. everthing is coloured and those parts need to be assembled together, one of blending colourations and character with the colourations and character of other parts including wire till it sounds right. What is right you say, well the violin concerto i went to today.

[vitavoxdude]

Steve, black gates are rubbish, please elaborate.
V

First of all where do we start on Black Gate capacitors. They have many attributes, very open very clean, great 3 dimensional sound stage. not to bright not to dark, But they are poor in the areas that matter. They have a sterile quality, strangely uninvolving, boring, no real flesh and bone of timber, a sameness in tumbrel colour, you can say very HIFI sounding, not real, artificial if you like, In this case the pulses of a big sound stage is not a blessing because, they may spread the sound out with the bigger sound stage, but thin out the solidarity of that image, the flesh and bone, and very importantly have very very poor lower mid range weight, and i must say, they have very poor weight overall, they are anaemic, bland, lacking the warm and the cold shades of real music, a sameness to the fabric of the music, a one note sound that predominates the music, not very natural and again without the shades of vocal and tonal colour you need to have for greatness. They do not have that sense of rightness at makes you feel this is real, and just forgetting its a hifi system, In my opinion they are very threadbare, HIFI sounding caps and unbelievably overrated and overpriced. I have even run these things in super E mode, I have given up on them.  But it is not just a matter of price. they do not belong in a supreme quality music system. Just because they have some great quality's can not make up for what they do wrong.  In an average system these problems may not be as apparent. but they stand out like John Holmes appendage, if you put one in an already truly magical system. If you are using them and think they are great, that is telling you something.

Now that's a proper answer, we should all be greatful for a seasoned two good ears.   I have heard the thiness and greyness you mention in BG's but wrongly assumed this was the incomplete running in stage.  Totally agree about bypass caps in most places effecting the balance.  I seem to recall placing a whole list of caps which I have played around with in the past and very quickly rating them in the hope that others would chip in with their thoughts, not too many takers there though!  You have to be brave like Mario who will try something, and just because its expensive if he does not like it will rip it out and change it until its right, Tuyen is not afraid of this either.

How about suggesting what brands you like and where in the circuit you'd deploy them, we can all learn something then 
V

[vitavoxdude]

Here is a link to a cap review which others may enjoy reading:

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm

V

[skippyboy]

Found this, Blackgates get better.
http://studiozey.com/woodencapacitor/index.html

[stevenvalve]

Found this, Blackgates get better.
http://studiozey.com/woodencapacitor/index.html

Interesting indeed. The problem is i do not like electrolytic caps in audio, and i only use them if my life depends on it. but you never know after these mods i may have a change of heart

[skippyboy]

It sounds good to me, but i am just a plumber, are you willing to get the tin snips out to tackle the sacred blackgates?

[linnmaster]

Just read this interesting thread.

Not sure if TRL (Tube Research Labs) is familiar with anyone, but they use NOTHING but ELECTROLYTICS in their preamp.  No film caps in PS at all. And the scary thing is that the more electrolytics you add in, the better the sound gets.  No bypass anywhere.  All wiring on PS and amp is double runs of 12 or 10 awg wire.  These are all on the HT voltage line, and the filament line.  Over 30,000 uf per channel on the HT line, and over 300,000 uf on the filament line.

Only one film per channel witch is series with the volume pot of each main channel.  This started as MIT PPFMX, then upgraded with Mundorf M-Cap 400V, then to Mundorf Supreme, and now to the Duelund Alexander which is MAGICAL!  Magical is the ONLY word I can think of to describe the sound.  I am considering Duelund CAST copper one day, or the the new BLACK.

.. One day ....

Regards, David