Author Topic: ADC/DAC losses  (Read 7855 times)

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2451
  • Liked: 67
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2014, 11:25:06 PM »
thank you, it is free for everybody to read or leave out what I write for nonsense... I feel fine here, and I do learn quite a lot, and if you don't like my contributions, just leave them out... that simple...

you might keep in mind - especially in electronics - that there is a proverb in medicine from Paracelsus since the middle ages: "The one who cures, is right"... even against physical laws and knowledge... and that even Doede had to "learn" during our researches... why ? because the sound got better - against initial presumption...

...as I do know nothing about electronics - you are right -  I always try to quote professionels: I quoted Richard S. Burwen who owns several dozen patents in electronics worldwide, and others verbally, who invented Class A and more...

...and as you seem to not want to read my ignorant and unscientific descriptions regarding squares you might prefer the ones from professionals...

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

and by the way, there is further no need to theoretically argue/presume/confirm anything regarding DDDAC if you actually have not yet listened to it and/or compared it and/or specifically tested it out...  then please don't waist my time...

...what I learned in HiFi: it is always the result that counts, not all theory...

...my aim is: to make/get things better, everywhere... the one or other way... that's why I am here for, and to learn from you all...

...and yes, thank you for your: "Happy square wave hunting! :)"... after 50 years in chasing for the best in HiFi, I can confirm you: I finally have them... what an infinite luck, exactly this is the fulfillment of my dreams.... !!!!!!!!!!! it must not be yours...
DDDAC its good hifi i heard 2 of them i would not buy one its still artificial
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline zenelectro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
  • Liked: 151
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2014, 11:49:54 PM »
thank you, it is free for everybody to read or leave out what I write for nonsense... I feel fine here, and I do learn quite a lot, and if you don't like my contributions, just leave them out... that simple...

rhlauranna, you seem to be taking this all very personally.  My comments are related to keeping quality of forum content.

I have a simple forum policy. I will generally add to a discussion where I have a good understanding and direct experience, then I make a contribution.
This keeps the value of content high and adds quality to the discussion.

You are making posts which are technical (square waves) but it looks like you don't have much understanding of the subject. This is not adding quality.
 
Quote

you might keep in mind - especially in electronics - that there is a proverb in medicine from Paracelsus since the middle ages: "The one who cures, is right"... even against physical laws and knowledge... and that even Doede had to "learn" during our researches... why ? because the sound got better - against initial presumption...

...as I do know nothing about electronics - you are right -  I always try to quote professionels: I quoted Richard S. Burwen who owns several dozen patents in electronics worldwide, and others verbally, who invented Class A and more...

...and as you seem to not want to read my ignorant and unscientific descriptions regarding squares you might prefer the ones from professionals...


Exactly Your descriptions -are- ignorant and unscientific. Leave those discussions to someone who at least has -some-  understanding of square waves.

Quote

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

and by the way, there is further no need to theoretically argue/presume/confirm anything regarding DDDAC if you actually have not yet listened to it and/or compared it and/or specifically tested it out...  then please don't waist my time...


If I wish to make a technical comment on DDDAC or any other DAC for that matter, I will do it! I am qualified to make such comments, I repair, design,
and build audio electronics and have a deep understanding of them. I'm also happy to be proved wrong, it won't be the first or last time.   

Quote

...what I learned in HiFi: it is always the result that counts, not all theory...


Agreed, results are most important, then we must try and correlate theory to those results. Your theory is wrong so how can you correlate it to results?

Quote

...my aim is: to make/get things better, everywhere... the one or other way... that's why I am here for, and to learn from you all...

...and yes, thank you for your: "Happy square wave hunting! :)"... after 50 years in chasing for the best in HiFi, I can confirm you: I finally have them... what an infinite luck, exactly this is the fulfillment of my dreams.... !!!!!!!!!!! it must not be yours...

Please read the content of my posts. You will see that placing most importance on thing, reproduction of square waves, is foolish.
Ther are many cases where
a) Gear that -does- reproduce square waves doesn't sound particularly good and
b) Gear that does -not- reproduce good square waves that sounds great.

WRT fulfillment of my dreams - I have a considerable amount of fulfillment.

My fulfillment comes from actually writing / composing music, playing it (often live), recording it, and like many here, listening to music.
Some of my tools of trade below -  I use and love them all. Many I design and build.

Cheers

Terry
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 12:02:29 AM by zenelectro »

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
  • Liked: 245
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2014, 11:11:39 PM »
Nice Terry !    You need to get your tape machine in the mix.  :) 

It's a hard slog to be playing instruments,  recording yourself,  and then replaying the recording to see if it sounds like the real thing.    Way too difficult, because the system itself is affecting the end result.  So to baseline, we need try and remove the system from the equation. 

Forget whether the source is R2R or any other type of front end,   put aside for a moment whether the (originating) front end (analog) component is distorting the recording.   This isnt relevant to judging the transparency of an ADC component.     

A picture demonstrates everything more clearly-  so here is a basic diagram of how I baseline my system and then judge the affect that the digitization step has,,,,,,,


The challenge is the ADC and DAC are the yin and yang,  to form the perfect circle, you need both to work together to evenly form the whole.   

Also, volume matching needs to be cross checked between the sample cases.  Subtle differences in output voltage following the DAC step make a real difference.    I know the pro's check this, just whacking it on the tail of this post.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 11:47:44 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
  • Liked: 245
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2014, 11:26:38 PM »
In the example above,   the real kicker is,    if the Baseline doesnt generate a sense of realism (ie: body, weight, flesh on the bone, air, timbre, etc etc, all the things that really matter)  ,,,, if the baseline system sounds analytical and clinical,   then how can we judge if all those attributes are still there after the ADC->DAC step is inserted?

The systems being used to listen and assess if it is genuinely transparent is critical.   

What are these companies producing ADC's listening to?      The hi-res jazz recording your mate made using the Pyramix(?? IIRC) was lacking mojo.  Bet your bottom dollar, the digitization step is a significant factor (they don't seem to be transparent on the things that really matter).   We'll see how the modded MR1000 goes.  :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 11:52:21 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline zenelectro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
  • Liked: 151
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2014, 12:04:29 AM »
Nice Terry !    You need to get your tape machine in the mix.  :) 


Yes, I certainly do. 

As my health improves I'm slowly realizing there's so much to do it's ridiculous - and my better half is continually reminding me
that what I really have to do is - nothing - relax and heal. Somewhere between the two is a path. :)

Quote


It's a hard slog to be playing instruments,  recording yourself,  and then replaying the recording to see if it sounds like the real thing.    Way too difficult, because the system itself is affecting the end result.  So to baseline, we need try and remove the system from the equation. 


Yeah, I just don't get that anal about it. TBH the whole hi end philosophy of "it sounds exactly like a live performance" to me is a big wank.

Any recording engineer knows that, in a live recording, it's always just the best compromise of capturing a good balance between instruments / vocals
and the room acoustics. The performance vibe is the most important thing. Once you get to a multi track and mixing console, ie; 90% of recordings,
it's all manipulated anyway. But -that- is an art form in itself. Which mics to use, which preamps, where to place people, etc etc.

Quote

Forget whether the source is R2R or any other type of front end,   put aside for a moment whether the (originating) front end (analog) component is distorting the recording.   This isnt relevant to judging the transparency of an ADC component.     


Yes, pretty much correct Oz.

But these days I'm not really sure I want a completely transparent ADC anyway. I want a great sounding one. That goes very much against the grain of
many people but I figure most of the recordings I like are done on mediums that aren't transparent, ie; analog tape. I'd rather a slightly colored
ADC that captures the sound and vibe really well as opposed to a super clean sterile one that doesn't. Many engineers might disagree but I don't
really give a toss. I like a bit of creativity in the recording process, when done appropriately. :)

Quote

A picture demonstrates everything more clearly-  so here is a basic diagram of how I baseline my system and then judge the affect that the digitization step has,,,,,,,

The challenge is the ADC and DAC are the yin and yang,  to form the perfect circle, you need both to evenly form the whole.

Yep, in theory that is absolutely correct. On the other hand, from a recording perspective, I actually think the whole Killer DAC approach might be kind of
upside down in a way. If the ADC was 'Killeresque' in sound then, theoretically the DAC could be much less colored. You add the flavors up front, not at
the back... in theory! 

I must admit that ATM I'm tired of long discussions of this stuff... maybe need some sleep :) 
Id rather spend my time designing / building / listening / playing / writing / creating. It's just more productive and for filling. :)


cheers

Terry
 

Offline zenelectro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
  • Liked: 151
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2014, 12:07:55 AM »

What are these companies producing ADC's listening to?      The hi-res jazz recording your mate made using the Pyramix(?? IIRC) was lacking mojo.  Bet your bottom dollar, the digitization step is a significant factor (they don't seem to be transparent on the things that really matter).   We'll see how the modded MR1000 goes.  :)

Did you buy / listen to that recording? I never got a chance to listen to finished product. 

The Pyramix Horus system is supposed to be extremely transparent. That recording was done at 384k from memory.


Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
  • Liked: 245
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2014, 07:30:44 AM »
Any recording engineer knows that, in a live recording, it's always just the best compromise of capturing a good balance between instruments / vocals
and the room acoustics. The performance vibe is the most important thing.
I tried to clarify my personal views on this (in response to Braddo) on the other Colouration thread.    A studio recording certainly isn't a live performance, and for me, trying to make them sound "live" might be an impossible target?

But the key thing, is does it sound real?   The vibe, as you say.    Does it sound like real music?    That has got to be the goal.    And my point is,  components that people put forward as "accurate" are not actually transparent to my ears, they don't convey (let through) the things that really matter.   Sure there is plenty of detail,  but that isn't everything.

Quote
But these days I'm not really sure I want a completely transparent ADC anyway.
(Snip). I'd rather a slightly colored ADC that captures the sound and vibe really well as opposed to a super clean sterile one that doesn't.
If it sounds sterile, it is not transparent.   This is the key point that you and I are not quite connecting on.

In my comparison example, if the 'baseline' is beautiful sounding realism,  then this is the outcome I want when a digitization step is inserted.

Quote
Yep, in theory that is absolutely correct. On the other hand, from a recording perspective, I actually think the whole Killer DAC approach might be kind of
upside down in a way. If the ADC was 'Killeresque' in sound then, theoretically the DAC could be much less colored. You add the flavors up front, not at the back... in theory! 
The killer attempts to add the colors that are missing from digital music,  in order to achieve a result that sounds like real music.    Absolutely, if the digitisation process didn't lose the mojo, we'd need to add less colours to the dac.   For sure, that is exactly the point I am making. :)

Quote
I must admit that ATM I'm tired of long discussions of this stuff... maybe need some sleep :) 
Id rather spend my time designing / building / listening / playing / writing / creating. It's just more productive and for filling. :)
:) I say listen to your wife, she knows what she is talking about.   Save your energy and get yourself right.   Designing and building electronics is something that can wait.   
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 11:03:53 AM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline rhlauranna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
  • Liked: 156
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2014, 08:10:01 AM »
...how can you correlate ... to results?

the greatest proof for correlation to results for the late Baron Philippe de Rothschild from Château Mouton Rothschild in Bordeaux regarding the quality of his wines was when saying: "I judge the quality of my wines on how often my guests want to be served !"

...and I judge the quality of our systems here (and especially the one of the DDDACs) on how long people listen to our systems, and when pianists from Japan claim: "no distortion" and greatest HiFi-gurus from over there with more than 20 systems on more than 500 square meters with really all that money can buy, old and anew) after eight hours listening in the sweet spot still can't get enough and admit: "We are not able to produce this in Japan."


Offline terry j

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Liked: 25
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2014, 09:02:16 AM »
hey zen

if you're getting a bit tired of talkin the usual audio arguments (that I can certainly understand!) start a thread on your music creation. Would love to read about it.

Is that a didg I can see with a mic taped to it? If it is not, then what instrument is it?

I hardly ever fire up my system nowadays, takes away from learning music theory and practising the piano. The ultimate goal however being to hook up the keyboard to the big system and jam, very much along the lines of this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w2ARPncHWc&list=UUOxNoKnixgLctHIZaolKzUA

Anyways, wrong thread to do too much more talking about this stuff, would love to chat more if you are interested.

Offline rhlauranna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
  • Liked: 156
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2014, 11:21:52 PM »
DDDAC its good hifi i heard 2 of them i would not buy one its still artificial

the quality of a DAC - all that we tested so far - finally may not be judged simply by the DAC itself... this is only half of the rent...

the other half (not only to my ears 50%) is defined by the corresponding power supply...

we have been through various sorts of power supply with all kinds of "strength" regarding power and weight, i.e. normal car batteries, some ten kg, lorry batteries up to 40 kg, "normal", i.e. "small" power supplies, and in the end (so far) controlled power supplies up to 20 kg...

and we tested out the different kinds of Doede's own power supplies, and even Jean Hiraga's new construction after he had become aware that batteries - although good - no longer have any chance... to illustrate the point, at the end of last year he came around the corner with something like this, a 26,5 kg battery:



but he quit caring for batteries immediately after having listened to the different (controlled) power supplies that we had already here with us in direct comparison, and because of the great differences in "generating" sound with these power supplies he constructed one for his own purposes, and yes, this was good, but had no chance in reaching our level...

but things go further: within this context there have been developed superb power supplies and discussed on the DIY-site, so, you might want to read more over there, claiming to meanwhile have come to even better results... and these results come from people whose skills I had the pleasure to get to know of and appreciate in april this year, and from these results I have no doubt that it is like that, but I have not yet listened to that personally...

so, if you should have the possibility, I only can propose to you: have another try, not only for any DDDAC but for the one(s) you use personally, it is very very very well worth it...

and by the way, to my presumption - I see nobody theoretically neither practically caring for this topic at all: this should be valid for ADC as well...

...and within another step - what as far as I can see neither anybody as well is talking about -  for the different power supplies 3,3, 5 and 12 Volt within PC and MAC...

there is still a lot to try out and to discover, and I will be glad to read about any positive contribution regarding that/these matters...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 11:41:39 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline vitavoxdude

  • Beauty is in the ear of the beholder
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1151
  • Liked: 63
  • Caring and sharing
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2014, 12:18:13 PM »
Quote
But these days I'm not really sure I want a completely transparent ADC anyway. I want a great sounding one. That goes very much against the grain of
many people but I figure most of the recordings I like are done on mediums that aren't transparent, ie; analog tape. I'd rather a slightly colored
ADC that captures the sound and vibe really well as opposed to a super clean sterile one that doesn't. Many engineers might disagree but I don't
really give a toss. I like a bit of creativity in the recording process, when done appropriately.

Here here and may you soon be back fighting fit.
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline zenelectro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 793
  • Liked: 151
Re: ADC/DAC losses
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2014, 01:37:04 PM »
hey zen

if you're getting a bit tired of talkin the usual audio arguments (that I can certainly understand!) start a thread on your music creation. Would love to read about it.


Hi Terry J,

Down the track I will probably do this.

ATM it's all over the place, after my recent health debacle I wasn't even sure if I could write another song or
play very well. But creative juices are slowly coming back, will take some time.

Quote

Is that a didg I can see with a mic taped to it? If it is not, then what instrument is it?


Yes that is a didge. A very good friend and song writing buddy lived in the red center for 15 years and has an amazing
collection of them. Most hand painted by prominent artists. I have to put some time into learning how to play it, haven't
had much time.  They are an awesome instrument for sure... now there's something to record.

Quote

I hardly ever fire up my system nowadays, takes away from learning music theory and practising the piano. The ultimate goal however being to hook up the keyboard to the big system and jam, very much along the lines of this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w2ARPncHWc&list=UUOxNoKnixgLctHIZaolKzUA

Anyways, wrong thread to do too much more talking about this stuff, would love to chat more if you are interested.
These multi faceted keyboard players amaze me. So much to keep a handle on whilst building the song.

Send me a pm, I might have to make a trek out there when I'm firing on a few more cylinders with the Vox and Elec Gita :)

cheers

T