Author Topic: Power Cables  (Read 18549 times)

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2014, 10:07:59 AM »
What is the deal with all the censorship at the moment?   The forum is going to all new heights of deleting posts.   
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline pete_mac

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2014, 10:31:22 AM »
Time to move on children, end it ... This is of no benefit to anyone, from now on it's topic only>:(

Noted. I won't interact with Mario on this topic any further.


If the issue of compliance is for public safety, no issues with that (people can choose if this is a concern or not), yet other non compliant plugs/cords should as Mario point out be identified as well, that's being even handed.


The for sale link Mario posted was for some cables with US style plugs, being sold 2nd hand.   Is that the same thing, is it relevant?

It's certainly not my attention (nor desire!!) to become the 'power cable police'. However, if I decided to pursue this, would I get a cape or a badge?  I could call myself 'SuperDickheadPowerCableMan'  ;D

My observations on Paul's cables related to the compliance and legal implications of selling non-compliant DIY power cables, and the genuine concern regarding the scope of the penalties associated with doing so. Other forum members here have touched on this topic in this exact thread.

The legality of US plugs and other non-compliant cables for sale on the Australian market has been debated ad nauseum. If the big players in the audio scene (whether manufacturers or retailers) choose not to comply, on their head be it. If someone chooses to make the authorities aware on a larger scale, it would be verrrrry interesting indeed.


Is it legal to use a US power cable like this,,,,,

http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html

If I used 1 of these?

http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html
The active pins are still exposed.

Why is it ok to commercially sell US power cables, that dont comply with local standards?   Genuine question.  No one batters an eyelid to these cables with US plugs.

No, it's not legal IMHO. The US plug/sockets are immediately non-compliant, plus every cable needs to be certified.

It is worth noting that the 'test and tag' regime does not cover individually assembled cables either, as it does not constitute certification under the relevant Australian standards. This appears to be a common misconception by certain cable manufacturers. They are two very different things.

Offline PingPing

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2014, 11:28:49 AM »
Is it legal to use a US power cable like this,,,,,

http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-3S-US-Power-Cable.html

If I used 1 of these?

http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/products/Shunyata-Research-Venom-PS%252d8-Power-Strip.html
The active pins are still exposed.

Why is it ok to commercially sell US power cables, that dont comply with local standards?   Genuine question.  No one batters an eyelid to these cables with US plugs.
Good Question...

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2014, 12:14:05 PM »
Australian plugs are a long way from being ideal as they are remiss IMV on a number of issues.  American plugs are not much better.  If you want a safe plug then you have to look to UK plugs as they cannot be pulled out by the chord, do not have any part of the connectors which can be touched by little fingers when partially decoupled from the wall socket as the Live and Neutral pins are sheathed / insulated.  Also UK plugs are fused within the plug so fault conditions take out the fuse as opposed to burn out the wall wiring (unlikely) but possible.  With the rise of the moulded plug most people cant even wire a plug these days!

Mains flex means just that, the cable is made up of multiple strands of a small enough diameter to allow multiple flexing without early failure through fatigue.  Moulded mains leads with IEC one end and Aussie plug the other should always be checked prior to use; it is not unknown for these when being made overseas to be incorrectly wired.  One UK hifi manufacturer sued a supplier when the earth pin was live!

I hate Aussie plugs because the pins are too thin and easily bent if inadvertently stood on.  The stupid way they are wired within wrapping the flex around a holding bend may be good for checking if its wired correctly with the transparent base but the sucky shroud has to be literally stretched over the main pin carrier.  The right angle entry plugs are slightly better with the cable 'clamp'  (more of a guillotine hard plastic plate) at least by distorting the cable it secures it in place.  The horrible self tapping screw has a course thread and just feels wrong driving it into the nylon / plastic cover.

It's hardly surprising that audio folk look for a more robust solution to feeding their audio devices and my advice would be ditch the Aussie and Yank plugs and go for the 13amp UK sockets and plugs.  You can get rhodium plated highly polished mains plug that will accept larger csa conductors which will improve the safety of your mains within you home.  MKC and Grabtree make good hardware.  The stuff you get here is as cheap as chips China made rubbish.

If you really want a better Aussie solution, look for computer distribution outlets (usually 4 to 12 outlets in a single bar but sometimes doubled up).  These can have much higher quality sockets which will grip the pins of the fabled plugs much more securely, they usually have a built in circuit breaker too and a steel enclosure all of which enhances screening and security.  I have known a lot of audio crazies use solid core (>1.5mm conductor) ring mains cable to hook up their audio but this is not permitted for domestic appliances which can be moved around.

When it comes to mains feeds always look for the lowest resistance cable which is very well insulted and preferably has a shielding braid as well as foil, if its around each conductor then even better.  Plugs and sockets look to medical suppliers or industrial as they are more robust / secure.  As others have mentioned, plated pins are not uncommon and many copies of well made products litter fleabay.  I generally find the US plugs are more robust than local plugs as they are built to handle the proportionally higher currents that the lower voltage demands.  Furukawa does not appear to supply their cables with Aussie plugs more to the shame and I am guessing the US is a much larger market than Oz for such things.  I would suggest only buying reputable 'name brand' cables rather than the more anonymous chinese cables with no come back / warranty.

As a price guide I would stay above 100 dollars each for 1 mtr length as at least you will get plenty of insulation.  Then we come to the other end of the cable  :o and crappy IEC plugs.  Honestly these again are usually bad news as the contact points are relatively small and if you have a revealing system the micro sparks generated by poor contact surfaces can be heard, in this regard tethered equipment avoids one source of noise entering the system.  Getting a gas tight welded or soldered cable is ideal but how many can say they have this, not many I'd wager.

A kettle belonging to a friend had a thinnish mains lead, when the kettle was turned on the lead got almost too hot to hold  :o  Make sure you do not have these Chinese specials in your home!

On a final note, the insulation on mains cables should be checked annually as the sheath perishes and cracks pretty rapidly if exposed to sunlight, I have several tools where this has happened so need replacing.  All the screws should be checked every couple of years too as the copper stranded conductors spreads out under the compressive load of the screws.

If I can make the time I will include some images of contact points on plugs etc and the general decay to plated surfaces with time, all pretty shocking stuff.
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline terry j

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2014, 01:12:21 PM »

Terry, you have met Mario and know how he phrases things but you are right, I can regard his musings as twitter twatter as I know him reasonably well. 

yep, mario and I get along very well (at least that is my view, I feel reasonably certain he agrees). As such, I had NO view on whether or not his statements were ok (in other words they did not bother me in the slightest) BUT I simply noted the discrepancy in how the two were viewed.

But good on you for being able to see that a personal relationship coloured the interpretation. As indeed did the reverse, the lack of a personal relationship coloured the other.

So many of the sh!t fights we see on forums occurs because of this very human reaction.

the moral? everyone needs to meet everyone in person so get out to as many gtgs as you can!!

At the very least, if you find you DO dislike the person in person then there is substance to the forum fights haha.

Offline data

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2014, 01:56:09 PM »
Geez, what a diversion, glad it's all sorted.

I only have on thing to say "Black Discus" free samples I dare others to try them!

OK, I'm done :)

*Grabs pointy hat and broom and takes off*

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2014, 02:20:50 PM »
I only have on thing to say "Black Discus" free samples I dare others to try them!

OK, I'm done :)

*Grabs pointy hat and broom and takes off*
LOL,  ok, I'll try them.   :D
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline PingPing

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2014, 02:22:21 PM »
I have forgotten, what is "Black Discus" supposed to do?

Offline fallsaudio

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2014, 02:35:31 PM »
Hello to all,
                I have requested the web designer to remove or block the power cables from the the web site until I can get the cable through the approval and certification process. This could take up to 12 months .
                I am disappointed by what has been and how it was said on this and the other site. The point was taken after the first few posts , but to keep going on and on . It in my my way of thinking was way to much. Were was the true spirit of a forum. Come on guys and girls we can do better than this.
                Enough of that we must all relax and go enjoy our systems.

Offline data

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2014, 02:52:53 PM »
I have forgotten, what is "Black Discus" supposed to do?
Go back to the other post with link, i don't want to clutter Paul's thread any more with off topic.

Good advise from Paul "we must all relax and go enjoy our systems"
:)

Offline PingPing

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2014, 02:56:02 PM »
Please post again, what is "Black Discus" supposed to do! 

I really do not to go back through the thread, hence why I asked...

Offline data

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2014, 03:07:51 PM »
Ill create a thread instead of putting it here.
http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=2955.msg22578#msg22578
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 03:15:45 PM by data »

Offline zenelectro

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2014, 03:27:51 PM »
Hello to all,
                I have requested the web designer to remove or block the power cables from the the web site until I can get the cable through the approval and certification process. This could take up to 12 months .
                I am disappointed by what has been and how it was said on this and the other site. The point was taken after the first few posts , but to keep going on and on . It in my my way of thinking was way to much. Were was the true spirit of a forum. Come on guys and girls we can do better than this.
                Enough of that we must all relax and go enjoy our systems.

Paul,

If you want to sell your cables I wouldn't get to scared by all this talk. This is mostly personal infighting and very little of it directed at you.
Whilst it is certainly worth carefully considering the valid legality issues discussed here, in reality the chances of one of these products actually
causing any damage to property through electrical malfunction has to be virtually zero.

a/ the cable has to actually fail - highly unlikely given the quality
b/ it has to fail in a way that is actually unsafe, ie; cause a short 
c/ That has to happen in a house that is wired incorrectly such that a dangerous situation is not prevented by mains fuses / breakers. 
d/ All of this has to happen -and- cause some damage to property
e/ The owner has to actually want to sue you

Let me throw another perspective on this whole 'how dangerous' discussion.
In the course of thousands of repairs I am staggered the number of times I have worked on amps etc that have -NO- safety earth connected to a metal chassis.
With an electric guitar amp usually the guitar ground is on the chassis and usually the metal guitar strings are grounded through the lead.

Once you lift the chassis earth the chassis can lift up to somewhere between 0 and 240V through capacitive / electrostatic coupling in the power transformer.
The guitarist then goes to sing on stage and we have a nice circuit completed from his hands -> body -> mouth -> microphone = ouch!  :o
And that is not considering if an actual fault occurs that can lift the chassis up to a deadly potential with significant current flow capacity.

That is what I would constitute as dangerous!  ;)

If you are still concerned It might be worth contacting the relevant compliance testing people and find out what rules apply to
say a recording studio installation scenario. I know for a fact that there are allowances made for a/ a certain number of 'prototype'
products and b/ unusual / out of the ordinary / custom installations.

You have plenty of options mate, don't let a bit of BS here put you off. Think + and go forward.


cheers

Terry

Offline fallsaudio

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2014, 04:06:00 PM »
Well said Terry,
                        I have even come across one very old American tube TV that was a hot chassis being that the neutral was tied to a floating chassis inside of metal  box and the active went through a half wave selenium rectifier to the rest of the B+ rail. If someone got the active and neutrals reversed  the only thing that stopped you getting  zapped were the plastic knobs on the controls. Old American tube radio were like that too !!

Offline hedalfa

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2014, 04:37:36 PM »
Paul,

If you want to sell your cables I wouldn't get to scared by all this talk. This is mostly personal infighting and very little of it directed at you.
Whilst it is certainly worth carefully considering the valid legality issues discussed here, in reality the chances of one of these products actually
causing any damage to property through electrical malfunction has to be virtually zero.

a/ the cable has to actually fail - highly unlikely given the quality
b/ it has to fail in a way that is actually unsafe, ie; cause a short 
c/ That has to happen in a house that is wired incorrectly such that a dangerous situation is not prevented by mains fuses / breakers. 
d/ All of this has to happen -and- cause some damage to property
e/ The owner has to actually want to sue you

Let me throw another perspective on this whole 'how dangerous' discussion.
In the course of thousands of repairs I am staggered the number of times I have worked on amps etc that have -NO- safety earth connected to a metal chassis.
With an electric guitar amp usually the guitar ground is on the chassis and usually the metal guitar strings are grounded through the lead.

Once you lift the chassis earth the chassis can lift up to somewhere between 0 and 240V through capacitive / electrostatic coupling in the power transformer.
The guitarist then goes to sing on stage and we have a nice circuit completed from his hands -> body -> mouth -> microphone = ouch!  :o
And that is not considering if an actual fault occurs that can lift the chassis up to a deadly potential with significant current flow capacity.

That is what I would constitute as dangerous!  ;)

If you are still concerned It might be worth contacting the relevant compliance testing people and find out what rules apply to
say a recording studio installation scenario. I know for a fact that there are allowances made for a/ a certain number of 'prototype'
products and b/ unusual / out of the ordinary / custom installations.

You have plenty of options mate, don't let a bit of BS here put you off. Think + and go forward.


cheers

Terry

Right on, as I have posted here unsafe amps are a much bigger risk overall yet largely ignored..............


Offline ozmillsy

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2014, 05:20:15 PM »
I have always liked the firmness and heavy feel of UK plugs.  Just picking up on V's suggestion for the DIYr's,  this plug is supposed to be all copper -

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-HD-POWER-PURE-COPPER-UK-MAINS-PLUG-SILVER-PLATED-FUSE-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-/351021184379

It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline hedalfa

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2014, 06:42:02 PM »
I have always liked the firmness and heavy feel of UK plugs.  Just picking up on V's suggestion for the DIYr's,  this plug is supposed to be all copper -

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-HD-POWER-PURE-COPPER-UK-MAINS-PLUG-SILVER-PLATED-FUSE-AUDIOPHILE-GRADE-/351021184379

Given the significantly thicker prongs there's a chance that being copper might be true, no chance with our plugs which often bend, though Chinese grade metal doesn't help. UK plug are awesome pick them up and plug them in UK the quality is obvious.

Offline pete_mac

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2014, 08:24:59 PM »
Paul,

If you want to sell your cables I wouldn't get to scared by all this talk. This is mostly personal infighting and very little of it directed at you.
Whilst it is certainly worth carefully considering the valid legality issues discussed here, in reality the chances of one of these products actually
causing any damage to property through electrical malfunction has to be virtually zero.

a/ the cable has to actually fail - highly unlikely given the quality
b/ it has to fail in a way that is actually unsafe, ie; cause a short 
c/ That has to happen in a house that is wired incorrectly such that a dangerous situation is not prevented by mains fuses / breakers. 
d/ All of this has to happen -and- cause some damage to property
e/ The owner has to actually want to sue you

Let me throw another perspective on this whole 'how dangerous' discussion.
In the course of thousands of repairs I am staggered the number of times I have worked on amps etc that have -NO- safety earth connected to a metal chassis.
With an electric guitar amp usually the guitar ground is on the chassis and usually the metal guitar strings are grounded through the lead.

Once you lift the chassis earth the chassis can lift up to somewhere between 0 and 240V through capacitive / electrostatic coupling in the power transformer.
The guitarist then goes to sing on stage and we have a nice circuit completed from his hands -> body -> mouth -> microphone = ouch!  :o
And that is not considering if an actual fault occurs that can lift the chassis up to a deadly potential with significant current flow capacity.

That is what I would constitute as dangerous!  ;)

If you are still concerned It might be worth contacting the relevant compliance testing people and find out what rules apply to
say a recording studio installation scenario. I know for a fact that there are allowances made for a/ a certain number of 'prototype'
products and b/ unusual / out of the ordinary / custom installations.

You have plenty of options mate, don't let a bit of BS here put you off. Think + and go forward.


cheers

Terry

Terry, this certainly covers the direct risk to people and property.

It doesn't, however, cover the risk associated with Paul selling non-compliant items. The ramifications can be significant if Fair Trading gets involved. They chase, and chase hard.

Edit: sorry... Paul, I forgot to wish you all the best if you do indeed choose to pursue the certification path. :)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:33:53 PM by pete_mac »

Offline kajak12

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2014, 08:41:54 PM »
yep, mario and I get along very well (at least that is my view, I feel reasonably certain he agrees). As such, I had NO view on whether or not his statements were ok (in other words they did not bother me in the slightest) BUT I simply noted the discrepancy in how the two were viewed.

But good on you for being able to see that a personal relationship coloured the interpretation. As indeed did the reverse, the lack of a personal relationship coloured the other.

So many of the sh!t fights we see on forums occurs because of this very human reaction.

the moral? everyone needs to meet everyone in person so get out to as many gtgs as you can!!

At the very least, if you find you DO dislike the person in person then there is substance to the forum fights haha.
Terry J a man which one must meet and he will never forget called him worse then a dik hed in the past but we had a beer few years later.and will do next year i will visit around end of march
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline kajak12

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Re: Power Cables
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2014, 08:43:09 PM »
just justifies selling illegal power cords then.
just justifies selling illegal power cords then.

Just about all DIY stuff is illegal. 

I'm illegal
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time