Author Topic: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff  (Read 14111 times)

Offline stevenvalve

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Here is some solid core wire i just picked up in the USA. This is the type of wire you guys need to look for, New old stock on a wooden bobbin Double silk wrapped 20 GAUGE solid core  1910-40s. The best dielectric you can use. The copper sounds better, this has been sitting around unused for 80 years and has matured. I use this old type of wire in the killerDacs and amps i make. Newer wire with its Teflon or some kind of plastic is rubbish. This was a great score, its hard to find like this, and will find its way into the killerdacs. Keep on the lookout for this stuff and put the links here
The observations here seem to be very curious.  Can you explain in technical terms how copper matures for better sound?  How is silk the best dielectric material, and in what applications?  Why is teflon or any other plastic rubbish, for insulation?  Please provide technical reasons for all of this.  No voodoo please!
You need to think out of the box. (How is silk the best dielectric material).  Silk and or cotton is porous The field travels around the outside of a wire, Teflon or plastic inhibits this flow, but the best material of cause is no dielectric. (Can you explain in technical terms how copper matures for better sound) Relaxing of the wire over time seems to have its merit, Does the crystal or quantum mechanical structure of the wire change over time. Do other changes accur to the copper at idle over 80+ years. Does a new unused set of interconnects sound different after running on a system for a long time. Of interest just look at cryogenic freezing of wire, That process changes the sound of the wire and valves. I know it does because i use some cryo wire in my amps, but only a little, ( its a balance of colouration's). You need to fully understand the underlying principals of making great sounding music systems, And that will include many things that defi reason, but your ears tell you it is right. That experience will come with age and plenty of lateral, out of the box thinking, and many blind hit and miss attempts.   (No voodoo please) I am full on into science, but because there are some things that i can not scientifically figure out, does not mean it does not happen. I know the fabric of the universe, at the blanck scale is a wave, and it becomes real (solid) upon observation. A matrix if you will. How do i prove it to your satisfaction.

 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 05:16:51 PM by stevenvalve »

Offline gthicm

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Entropy and the suspension of disbelief
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 07:19:29 PM »
Here is some solid core wire i just picked up in the USA. This is the type of wire you guys need to look for, New old stock on a wooden bobbin Double silk wrapped 20 GAUGE solid core  1910-40s. The best dielectric you can use. The copper sounds better, this has been sitting around unused for 80 years and has matured. I use this old type of wire in the killerDacs and amps i make. Newer wire with its Teflon or some kind of plastic is rubbish. This was a great score, its hard to find like this, and will find its way into the killerdacs. Keep on the lookout for this stuff and put the links here
The observations here seem to be very curious.  Can you explain in technical terms how copper matures for better sound?  How is silk the best dielectric material, and in what applications?  Why is teflon or any other plastic rubbish, for insulation?  Please provide technical reasons for all of this.  No voodoo please!
You need to think out of the box. (How is silk the best dielectric material).  Silk and or cotton is porous The field travels around the outside of a wire, Teflon or plastic inhibits this flow, but the best material of cause is no dielectric. (Can you explain in technical terms how copper matures for better sound) Relaxing of the wire over time seems to have its merit, Does the crystal or quantum mechanical structure of the wire change over time. Do other changes accur to the copper at idle over 80+ years. Does a new unused set of interconnects sound different after running on a system for a long time. Of interest just look at cryogenic freezing of wire, That process changes the sound of the wire and valves. I know it does because i use some cryo wire in my amps, but only a little, ( its a balance of colouration's). You need to fully understand the underlying principals of making great sounding music systems, And that will include many things that defi reason, but your ears tell you it is right. That experience will come with age and plenty of lateral, out of the box thinking, and many blind hit and miss attempts.   (No voodoo please) I am full on into science, but because there are some things that i can not scientifically figure out, does not mean it does not happen. I know the fabric of the universe, at the blanck scale is a wave, and it becomes real (solid) upon observation. A matrix if you will. How do i prove it to your satisfaction.

 

I generally do think outside the box when dealing with issues not involving the laws of physics and well established principles of electrical engineering.  So, I guess that you would also believe that things like Shakti Stones, Brilliant Little Pebbles, the Harmonizer, painting cd edges green and Hallographs alter sound.  I guess that if someone claimed that putting coprolites near electrical devices or transducers somehow improved the sound, you would credit that these things actually affect the sound, even though there is no scientific evidence that would support these claims.  The simple answer is that it is probably psychoacoustics at work.  I do not believe that these wonder products have any merit, except for making money for their sellers.

As a dielectric, silk is not a good choice for high voltages.  I am aware of the claims that the best dielectric for interconnects and speaker cables is air.  I have made interconnects with both copper and silver wire sheathed in unbleached cotton weave.  I heard no difference in teflon insulation tight to copper and silver.  Admittedly, after only 40 years of mucking about with audio stuff I have a lot to learn, but there is simply no scientific repeatable evidence that a dielectric with the same withstand as air is better.  This is especially true in shot runs, such as hookup wire and interconnects.  While on this topic, I cannot imagine how buying cable lifters for speaker wires to keep them off the floor does anything but empty the pockets of the gullible and line the pockets of the marketeers.  If you really believe this dielectric phenomena, then better to loosely sheath naked wire in a flexible teflon tube.  At least it will be electircally well insulated and have plenty of air.

As to wire maturing, there is no scientific proof of this effect.  It could be a lot of things, including the old enemy psychoacoustics.  When you suggest that while the wire is lazily relaxing, maybe on the beach in the Riviera, its structure is changing.  I guess it is entropy at the subatomic level?  Is wire like wine, where it reaches its fullest maturation and then becomes increasingly more unpleasant?  How long does this maturing process take to have the best effect on sound?  One day, year, decade, millenia, eon after the wire is drawn or cast?  I guess you are suggesting the principle of entropy at play here with accelerated effect.  I would suggest that in 80 or 800 years, that wire would not change significantly, especially in the short runs we are talking about here, so as to have any effect on sound quality.  One can suspend disbelief, but not suspend the laws of physics.  As you can see, I do not believe in burning in wires.  There is no proof that running small currents through wire does anything to change its structure or electrical properties.  Cryogenics is different in that there are changes at the molecular level.  Whether these changes have any impact on the sound quality of wire and tubes is deabatable, at best.  So I guess you posit that anything that is older is better, as it has aged.  Accordingly, one should use old transformers, wire, solder, lugs and spades, tube sockets, tubes, RCA connectors and speaker terminals.  Is this maturation effect only for copper wire, or is it applicable to all metals?

How something sounds does involve a degree of subjectivism.  However, there are certain immutable laws of physics that bound things.  To me, the claims of mature wire and air dielectric in short runs of wire making a sonic difference, discernable to the best of listeners, are outside the bounds of reality.  So far, there is nothiing presented here that would convince me there is reason to believe otherwise.



« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 08:24:50 PM by gthicm »

Offline kajak12

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Re: Entropy and the suspension of disbelief
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2011, 09:57:16 PM »
Here is some solid core wire i just picked up in the USA. This is the type of wire you guys need to look for, New old stock on a wooden bobbin Double silk wrapped 20 GAUGE solid core  1910-40s. The best dielectric you can use. The copper sounds better, this has been sitting around unused for 80 years and has matured. I use this old type of wire in the killerDacs and amps i make. Newer wire with its Teflon or some kind of plastic is rubbish. This was a great score, its hard to find like this, and will find its way into the killerdacs. Keep on the lookout for this stuff and put the links here
The observations here seem to be very curious.  Can you explain in technical terms how copper matures for better sound?  How is silk the best dielectric material, and in what applications?  Why is teflon or any other plastic rubbish, for insulation?  Please provide technical reasons for all of this.  No voodoo please!
You need to think out of the box. (How is silk the best dielectric material).  Silk and or cotton is porous The field travels around the outside of a wire, Teflon or plastic inhibits this flow, but the best material of cause is no dielectric. (Can you explain in technical terms how copper matures for better sound) Relaxing of the wire over time seems to have its merit, Does the crystal or quantum mechanical structure of the wire change over time. Do other changes accur to the copper at idle over 80+ years. Does a new unused set of interconnects sound different after running on a system for a long time. Of interest just look at cryogenic freezing of wire, That process changes the sound of the wire and valves. I know it does because i use some cryo wire in my amps, but only a little, ( its a balance of colouration's). You need to fully understand the underlying principals of making great sounding music systems, And that will include many things that defi reason, but your ears tell you it is right. That experience will come with age and plenty of lateral, out of the box thinking, and many blind hit and miss attempts.   (No voodoo please) I am full on into science, but because there are some things that i can not scientifically figure out, does not mean it does not happen. I know the fabric of the universe, at the blanck scale is a wave, and it becomes real (solid) upon observation. A matrix if you will. How do i prove it to your satisfaction.

 

I generally do think outside the box when dealing with issues not involving the laws of physics and well established principles of electrical engineering.  So, I guess that you would also believe that things like Shakti Stones, Brilliant Little Pebbles, the Harmonizer, painting cd edges green and Hallographs alter sound.  I guess that if someone claimed that putting coprolites near electrical devices or transducers somehow improved the sound, you would credit that these things actually affect the sound, even though there is no scientific evidence that would support these claims.  The simple answer is that it is probably psychoacoustics at work.  I do not believe that these wonder products have any merit, except for making money for their sellers.

As a dielectric, silk is not a good choice for high voltages.  I am aware of the claims that the best dielectric for interconnects and speaker cables is air.  I have made interconnects with both copper and silver wire sheathed in unbleached cotton weave.  I heard no difference in teflon insulation tight to copper and silver.  Admittedly, after only 40 years of mucking about with audio stuff I have a lot to learn, but there is simply no scientific repeatable evidence that a dielectric with the same withstand as air is better.  This is especially true in shot runs, such as hookup wire and interconnects.  While on this topic, I cannot imagine how buying cable lifters for speaker wires to keep them off the floor does anything but empty the pockets of the gullible and line the pockets of the marketeers.  If you really believe this dielectric phenomena, then better to loosely sheath naked wire in a flexible teflon tube.  At least it will be electircally well insulated and have plenty of air.

As to wire maturing, there is no scientific proof of this effect.  It could be a lot of things, including the old enemy psychoacoustics.  When you suggest that while the wire is lazily relaxing, maybe on the beach in the Riviera, its structure is changing.  I guess it is entropy at the subatomic level?  Is wire like wine, where it reaches its fullest maturation and then becomes increasingly more unpleasant?  How long does this maturing process take to have the best effect on sound?  One day, year, decade, millenia, eon after the wire is drawn or cast?  I guess you are suggesting the principle of entropy at play here with accelerated effect.  I would suggest that in 80 or 800 years, that wire would not change significantly, especially in the short runs we are talking about here, so as to have any effect on sound quality.  One can suspend disbelief, but not suspend the laws of physics.  As you can see, I do not believe in burning in wires.  There is no proof that running small currents through wire does anything to change its structure or electrical properties.  Cryogenics is different in that there are changes at the molecular level.  Whether these changes have any impact on the sound quality of wire and tubes is deabatable, at best.  So I guess you posit that anything that is older is better, as it has aged.  Accordingly, one should use old transformers, wire, solder, lugs and spades, tube sockets, tubes, RCA connectors and speaker terminals.  Is this maturation effect only for copper wire, or is it applicable to all metals?

How something sounds does involve a degree of subjectivism.  However, there are certain immutable laws of physics that bound things.  To me, the claims of mature wire and air dielectric in short runs of wire making a sonic difference, discernable to the best of listeners, are outside the bounds of reality.  So far, there is nothiing presented here that would convince me there is reason to believe otherwise.




Regarding cryogenics yes it changes sound i had tried it on copper wire,silver wire,valves and i know a few others that can hear a difference aswell,even on cd's it works some can hear others cant system and hearing dependent.If you cant hear then it doean't mean others cant.
Cable burn is also something i can hear and others can, different dielectrics also affect sound teflon,silk,cotton done it years ago.
PS:Do you believe we can measure everything parameter in audio reproduction?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 10:07:22 PM by kajak12 »
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline gthicm

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The nexus between belief and reality
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2011, 11:01:26 PM »
I do fully understand that you believe that you are hearing differences.  The question is whether there really is a difference, in fact.  Seemingly, in matters of audio, there is a disproportianate amount of people willing to believe there hear a difference between say OFC copper and regular copper wire.  That is why in audio there are so many snake oil salesmen that can actually make a living by selling sound enhancers that supposedly have a large positive impact on sound.  For example, do you believe that special cable hangers that keep speaker cables off the ground have an impact on the sound?  Do you believe that Shakti Stones do anything at all to the sound?  There are a lot of people who do and it is the ususal Golden Ear or Highly Resolving system qualifiers to explain why they hear it and you do not.  I guess that this is the last bastion of rationalization to support the alleged sound improvement, as there is no other rational explanation available.

Sure, measurements do not prove everything, but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now without them.  I truly believe that psychoacoustics have a lot to do with how people perceive sound differences with the use of this or that strange product with dubious claims.  There are also elements of belief that sound of religion.  Try to dissuade someone that there is or is not a Supreme Being.  Even the title of this thread has religious tones.  I do trust my ears, irrespective of whether or not my head might be shoved up my arse.  I also trust and use measurements and specifications in choosing equipment and components.  So, again, give me anything at all that expalins how mature wire or silk insulation has any impact, positive or negative, on sound.  So far, nothing.  That is reality.

Offline kajak12

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Re: The nexus between belief and reality
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2011, 11:12:57 PM »
I do fully understand that you believe that you are hearing differences.  The question is whether there really is a difference, in fact.  Seemingly, in matters of audio, there is a disproportianate amount of people willing to believe there hear a difference between say OFC copper and regular copper wire.  That is why in audio there are so many snake oil salesmen that can actually make a living by selling sound enhancers that supposedly have a large positive impact on sound.  For example, do you believe that special cable hangers that keep speaker cables off the ground have an impact on the sound?  Do you believe that Shakti Stones do anything at all to the sound?  There are a lot of people who do and it is the ususal Golden Ear or Highly Resolving system qualifiers to explain why they hear it and you do not.  I guess that this is the last bastion of rationalization to support the alleged sound improvement, as there is no other rational explanation available.

Sure, measurements do not prove everything, but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now without them.  I truly believe that psychoacoustics have a lot to do with how people perceive sound differences with the use of this or that strange product with dubious claims.  There are also elements of belief that sound of religion.  Try to dissuade someone that there is or is not a Supreme Being.  Even the title of this thread has religious tones.  I do trust my ears, irrespective of whether or not my head might be shoved up my arse.  I also trust and use measurements and specifications in choosing equipment and components.  So, again, give me anything at all that expalins how mature wire or silk insulation has any impact, positive or negative, on sound.  So far, nothing.  That is reality.
Personally i dont care about the technical explanation it means sh!t to me,i know what i hear and other people hear the same thing i guess we are all just imagining.
Can you hear the difference between silver wire and copper wire?
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline gthicm

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Re: The nexus between belief and reality
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 11:20:57 PM »
I do fully understand that you believe that you are hearing differences.  The question is whether there really is a difference, in fact.  Seemingly, in matters of audio, there is a disproportianate amount of people willing to believe there hear a difference between say OFC copper and regular copper wire.  That is why in audio there are so many snake oil salesmen that can actually make a living by selling sound enhancers that supposedly have a large positive impact on sound.  For example, do you believe that special cable hangers that keep speaker cables off the ground have an impact on the sound?  Do you believe that Shakti Stones do anything at all to the sound?  There are a lot of people who do and it is the ususal Golden Ear or Highly Resolving system qualifiers to explain why they hear it and you do not.  I guess that this is the last bastion of rationalization to support the alleged sound improvement, as there is no other rational explanation available.

Sure, measurements do not prove everything, but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now without them.  I truly believe that psychoacoustics have a lot to do with how people perceive sound differences with the use of this or that strange product with dubious claims.  There are also elements of belief that sound of religion.  Try to dissuade someone that there is or is not a Supreme Being.  Even the title of this thread has religious tones.  I do trust my ears, irrespective of whether or not my head might be shoved up my arse.  I also trust and use measurements and specifications in choosing equipment and components.  So, again, give me anything at all that expalins how mature wire or silk insulation has any impact, positive or negative, on sound.  So far, nothing.  That is reality.
Personally i dont care about the technical explanation it means sh!t to me,i know what i hear and other people hear the same thing i guess we are all just imagining.
Can you hear the difference between silver wire and copper wire?
Technical specifications mean nothing to you?  You hear it therefore you believe it?  Sounds very Cartesian to me.  Rather proves my point that you believe it therefore it is, irrespective of there being no electrical engineering reason to suggest a difference.  The most probable explanation is psychoacoustics.  Silver wire where?  Hookup, interconnects, speaker wires, power cords or jewelry?

Offline kajak12

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Re: The nexus between belief and reality
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 11:31:40 PM »
I do fully understand that you believe that you are hearing differences.  The question is whether there really is a difference, in fact.  Seemingly, in matters of audio, there is a disproportianate amount of people willing to believe there hear a difference between say OFC copper and regular copper wire.  That is why in audio there are so many snake oil salesmen that can actually make a living by selling sound enhancers that supposedly have a large positive impact on sound.  For example, do you believe that special cable hangers that keep speaker cables off the ground have an impact on the sound?  Do you believe that Shakti Stones do anything at all to the sound?  There are a lot of people who do and it is the ususal Golden Ear or Highly Resolving system qualifiers to explain why they hear it and you do not.  I guess that this is the last bastion of rationalization to support the alleged sound improvement, as there is no other rational explanation available.

Sure, measurements do not prove everything, but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now without them.  I truly believe that psychoacoustics have a lot to do with how people perceive sound differences with the use of this or that strange product with dubious claims.  There are also elements of belief that sound of religion.  Try to dissuade someone that there is or is not a Supreme Being.  Even the title of this thread has religious tones.  I do trust my ears, irrespective of whether or not my head might be shoved up my arse.  I also trust and use measurements and specifications in choosing equipment and components.  So, again, give me anything at all that expalins how mature wire or silk insulation has any impact, positive or negative, on sound.  So far, nothing.  That is reality.
Personally i dont care about the technical explanation it means sh!t to me,i know what i hear and other people hear the same thing i guess we are all just imagining.
Can you hear the difference between silver wire and copper wire?
Technical specifications mean nothing to you?  You hear it therefore you believe it?  Sounds very Cartesian to me.  Rather proves my point that you believe it therefore it is, irrespective of there being no electrical engineering reason to suggest a difference.  The most probable explanation is psychoacoustics.  Silver wire where?  Hookup, interconnects, speaker wires, power cords or jewelry?
silver wire interconnects,speaker cables and hookup wire.
 My system is built using my ears only no measurements at all with microphones its called trusting your ears. :D My imagination has rubbed of on a lot of people australia wide so we are all in the same boat feel free to come aboard.
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline gthicm

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Re: The nexus between belief and reality
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2011, 11:45:16 PM »
I do fully understand that you believe that you are hearing differences.  The question is whether there really is a difference, in fact.  Seemingly, in matters of audio, there is a disproportianate amount of people willing to believe there hear a difference between say OFC copper and regular copper wire.  That is why in audio there are so many snake oil salesmen that can actually make a living by selling sound enhancers that supposedly have a large positive impact on sound.  For example, do you believe that special cable hangers that keep speaker cables off the ground have an impact on the sound?  Do you believe that Shakti Stones do anything at all to the sound?  There are a lot of people who do and it is the ususal Golden Ear or Highly Resolving system qualifiers to explain why they hear it and you do not.  I guess that this is the last bastion of rationalization to support the alleged sound improvement, as there is no other rational explanation available.

Sure, measurements do not prove everything, but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now without them.  I truly believe that psychoacoustics have a lot to do with how people perceive sound differences with the use of this or that strange product with dubious claims.  There are also elements of belief that sound of religion.  Try to dissuade someone that there is or is not a Supreme Being.  Even the title of this thread has religious tones.  I do trust my ears, irrespective of whether or not my head might be shoved up my arse.  I also trust and use measurements and specifications in choosing equipment and components.  So, again, give me anything at all that expalins how mature wire or silk insulation has any impact, positive or negative, on sound.  So far, nothing.  That is reality.
Personally i dont care about the technical explanation it means sh!t to me,i know what i hear and other people hear the same thing i guess we are all just imagining.
Can you hear the difference between silver wire and copper wire?
Technical specifications mean nothing to you?  You hear it therefore you believe it?  Sounds very Cartesian to me.  Rather proves my point that you believe it therefore it is, irrespective of there being no electrical engineering reason to suggest a difference.  The most probable explanation is psychoacoustics.  Silver wire where?  Hookup, interconnects, speaker wires, power cords or jewelry?
silver wire interconnects,speaker cables and hookup wire.
 My system is built using my ears only no measurements at all with microphones its called trusting your ears. :D My imagination has rubbed of on a lot of people australia wide so we are all in the same boat feel free to come aboard.
Thanks for the invitation.  I think I will let that ship sail without me.  Enjoy the trip!  Enjoy your silver wires, too.  I prefer it made into forks and knives.

Offline kajak12

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2011, 11:48:40 PM »
I dont use silver and stainless steel makes a great cutlery,
ps:You seem to ask questions but not answer a simple question like can you hear a difference between silver wire or copper wire?
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Offline gthicm

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2011, 11:56:01 PM »
I dont use silver and stainless steel makes a great cutlery,
ps:You seem to ask questions but not answer a simple question like can you hear a difference between silver wire or copper wire?

I thought I was clear when I said that I preferred silver in cutlery.  It makes no difference in the system.  I do not believe that decent wire with proper connectors makes any difference, unless the system has some anomalies, like mismatch in impedances, or the like. So that answers your one question?  How about having a go at some of mine in this thread?  How old is old enough, for copper wire, for example?

Offline kajak12

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2011, 12:01:20 AM »
I dont use silver and stainless steel makes a great cutlery,
ps:You seem to ask questions but not answer a simple question like can you hear a difference between silver wire or copper wire?

I thought I was clear when I said that I preferred silver in cutlery.  It makes no difference in the system.  I do not believe that decent wire with proper connectors makes any difference, unless the system has some anomalies, like mismatch in impedances, or the like. So that answers your one question?  How about having a go at some of mine in this thread?  How old is old enough, for copper wire, for example?
Vintage about 1950's its really good wire with a nice smooth sound imho
I must have problems with my system silver vs copper is huge difference
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Offline gthicm

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2011, 12:04:35 AM »
I dont use silver and stainless steel makes a great cutlery,
ps:You seem to ask questions but not answer a simple question like can you hear a difference between silver wire or copper wire?

I thought I was clear when I said that I preferred silver in cutlery.  It makes no difference in the system.  I do not believe that decent wire with proper connectors makes any difference, unless the system has some anomalies, like mismatch in impedances, or the like. So that answers your one question?  How about having a go at some of mine in this thread?  How old is old enough, for copper wire, for example?
Vintage about 1950's its really good wire with a nice smooth sound imho
I must have problems with my system silver vs copper is huge difference
So, vintage 1920 or 1960 is not good?  there may be problems with your system or it may be psycho acoustics.  Whatever the case, enjoy

Offline gamve

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2011, 12:08:23 AM »
Gthicm you stated "but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now" Indeed it has not really advanced since the 1950's ish. Everything much after is is an advancement in marketing not audio. Your arguments are the same ol same ol. Quality of components is affected by the same marketing and unless you can come up with some real examples of your real experiences of what works and what does not your just stirring the pot and not advancing our common goal, good sound. If this does not suit your purposes join SNA.

Offline gthicm

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Stuck in the past
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2011, 12:38:55 AM »
Gthicm you stated "but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now" Indeed it has not really advanced since the 1950's ish. Everything much after is is an advancement in marketing not audio. Your arguments are the same ol same ol. Quality of components is affected by the same marketing and unless you can come up with some real examples of your real experiences of what works and what does not your just stirring the pot and not advancing our common goal, good sound. If this does not suit your purposes join SNA.
Are you really serious that there have been no real advances in audio?  What about speaker technology, discrete components, better measurement techniques, analogue cartridge improvements, mastering, better materials, and the list goes on?  I suppose that you are entitled to express any opinion you like, but please back it up with facts.  The OP made some statements about wire maturing and silk being the best dielectric.  I am merely challenging these bold statements and asking for the facts that back it up.  This is after all a forum where ideas and opinions can be fully aired and discussed, within the rules of the forum.  I have written quite a lot and raised some good points and questions.  What can you add of any substance?

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 01:11:10 AM »
Gthicm you stated "but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now" Indeed it has not really advanced since the 1950's ish. Everything much after is is an advancement in marketing not audio. Your arguments are the same ol same ol. Quality of components is affected by the same marketing and unless you can come up with some real examples of your real experiences of what works and what does not your just stirring the pot and not advancing our common goal, good sound. If this does not suit your purposes join SNA.
;D Stirring the pot is usually healthy as long as it is not with intent or malice.  ;) Challenging a person to put their theories and prefferences where their mouth is will always cause ruptions as most of us are not scientists or pro electronics engineers.  As usual a lot of this subjectivism comes down to personal likes and very few people get the chance to compare real to reproduced music on any kind of regular basis so only have their preferences to draw on.  I do not beleive any of us have a right to say anothers persons prefferences are wrong but possibly not as developed or researched as others findings may be, it's still not a right wrong arguement IMV.

I have to agree that the marketing men have to re sell the wheel on a regular basis so therefore have to keep on the bigger better path whereas people with advanced years will realise the folly in a lot of the Kings new clothes.  Men are men though and we have frail egoís so I very much doubt that there will be many takers when it comes to substantiating any of the  bigger / better type claims through measurements and suchlike; and having seen the results on this forum of people likes and dislikes for double blind testing Ė possibly not confident in their own assertions when faced with identifying reliably and another reason for having a club to seek out the great from the also rans. :o

I think the more people we have contributing to the fourum the better and would love to hear what Gthicm uses to hit the spot musically at home as it will give a better understanding of where he is coming from before anyone starts  circular discussions.  Please remember (IMV) that you should never critisize a man's choice in life partner and tread carefully when you use  any 'put down comments' regarding thier beleifs in Audio.  The SNA comment was funny. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline gthicm

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 02:27:42 AM »
Gthicm you stated "but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now" Indeed it has not really advanced since the 1950's ish. Everything much after is is an advancement in marketing not audio. Your arguments are the same ol same ol. Quality of components is affected by the same marketing and unless you can come up with some real examples of your real experiences of what works and what does not your just stirring the pot and not advancing our common goal, good sound. If this does not suit your purposes join SNA.
;D Stirring the pot is usually healthy as long as it is not with intent or malice.  ;) Challenging a person to put their theories and prefferences where their mouth is will always cause ruptions as most of us are not scientists or pro electronics engineers.  As usual a lot of this subjectivism comes down to personal likes and very few people get the chance to compare real to reproduced music on any kind of regular basis so only have their preferences to draw on.  I do not beleive any of us have a right to say anothers persons prefferences are wrong but possibly not as developed or researched as others findings may be, it's still not a right wrong arguement IMV.

I have to agree that the marketing men have to re sell the wheel on a regular basis so therefore have to keep on the bigger better path whereas people with advanced years will realise the folly in a lot of the Kings new clothes.  Men are men though and we have frail egoís so I very much doubt that there will be many takers when it comes to substantiating any of the  bigger / better type claims through measurements and suchlike; and having seen the results on this forum of people likes and dislikes for double blind testing Ė possibly not confident in their own assertions when faced with identifying reliably and another reason for having a club to seek out the great from the also rans. :o

I think the more people we have contributing to the fourum the better and would love to hear what Gthicm uses to hit the spot musically at home as it will give a better understanding of where he is coming from before anyone starts  circular discussions.  Please remember (IMV) that you should never critisize a man's choice in life partner and tread carefully when you use  any 'put down comments' regarding thier beleifs in Audio.  The SNA comment was funny. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
V

I do agree with some of the above.  But getting back to the OP, I was challenging and still challenge the assertions made, especially about maturing of copper and its effect on sound.  Frankly, I have not read or heard anything about that before so it is rather novel.  It also doesn't make any sense and is highly dubious.  I have never spoken about this brand or that, but the effects of this mature wire and wire in general.  Why should there be any ego involved in that?

I think that I gave a rather lengthy description of my equipment before but I do not mind summarizing again, to the extent it is relevant, which I doubt.  The horn system is bass in an Artec Onken horn design with two JBL 150-4s, for midrange a Vitavox S5 with Vitavox horn and for tweeter at the moment a Fostex T-900A.  Active crossover is a Pioneer D23, amps are 300b with permalloy outputs, KT90 PP, Sun 2A3, 845 SET, Class A Krell50 clone built from kit, Aikido preamp, switchable DHT preamp for 26, 01A or 12A DHT with vintage (ugh) UTC HA-133 line to plate transformers, SB3 slaved to Empiircal Audio Pace-Car II, feeding i2s to an Aya II with double crown, a TDA1541A dac from a Chinese kit with tube analogue stage (not push pull), AN Dac clone with AD1865 with SS analogue stage, modded Lite 60 with the crappy PP anlogue stage removed for Sowter transformers and turntables, SUTs, Piccolo headamp, Aikido phono and a D3A phono with 5687 gyrator outputs, all tube regulated power supplies.  Cables and cords mixes of DIY silver, silver tinned copper and copper, Kimber, Blue Jeans Belden and some other stuff.  Another system running modified ASL Hurricanes with KT88 PP, Vcaps and Mundorfs driving B&W 803Ds.  In the storeroom various horn drivers, RAAL ribbons, Peerless drivers, NAD sand amp, Sony TA-2000F and bunches of other junk to experiment with.  What that tells anyone, I am not sure.  I would say the systems are pretty resolving.  Oh yeah, stashes of all kinds of tubes squirreled away with some oddballs like 6f8g used in place of 6sn7s with a stash of Tungsol roundplates and many other brands and 7N7s too.  There is it is for what it is worth.  Fun for some equipment worshippers I suppose.

My belief in audio is just get on with it so long as it does not commit a murder.  Music likes are eclectic and run from classical to rock to world music, Brazilian, Indian, Jazz and so on.  Beliefs in religion probably should not be challenged, but beliefs in audio, without any support, technical or otherwise, and based on the theory of golden ears or I can hear it, should be challenged.  What better place to do this than on an audio forum?

Offline gamve

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Re: Stuck in the past
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 10:22:50 AM »
Gthicm you stated "but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now" Indeed it has not really advanced since the 1950's ish. Everything much after is is an advancement in marketing not audio. Your arguments are the same ol same ol. Quality of components is affected by the same marketing and unless you can come up with some real examples of your real experiences of what works and what does not your just stirring the pot and not advancing our common goal, good sound. If this does not suit your purposes join SNA.
Are you really serious that there have been no real advances in audio?  What about speaker technology, discrete components, better measurement techniques, analogue cartridge improvements, mastering, better materials, and the list goes on?  I suppose that you are entitled to express any opinion you like, but please back it up with facts.  The OP made some statements about wire maturing and silk being the best dielectric.  I am merely challenging these bold statements and asking for the facts that back it up.  This is after all a forum where ideas and opinions can be fully aired and discussed, within the rules of the forum.  I have written quite a lot and raised some good points and questions.  What can you add of any substance?

I thought I did that with my earlier post on the subject? These were just my thoughts on the topic. As for advances in audio, have a look at the list of your equipment above. All that gear and the circuit designs looks like it was released last year....LOL

Offline gthicm

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Advancements
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 12:43:43 PM »
Gthicm you stated "but audio could not have advanced and improved to where it is now" Indeed it has not really advanced since the 1950's ish. Everything much after is is an advancement in marketing not audio. Your arguments are the same ol same ol. Quality of components is affected by the same marketing and unless you can come up with some real examples of your real experiences of what works and what does not your just stirring the pot and not advancing our common goal, good sound. If this does not suit your purposes join SNA.
Are you really serious that there have been no real advances in audio?  What about speaker technology, discrete components, better measurement techniques, analogue cartridge improvements, mastering, better materials, and the list goes on?  I suppose that you are entitled to express any opinion you like, but please back it up with facts.  The OP made some statements about wire maturing and silk being the best dielectric.  I am merely challenging these bold statements and asking for the facts that back it up.  This is after all a forum where ideas and opinions can be fully aired and discussed, within the rules of the forum.  I have written quite a lot and raised some good points and questions.  What can you add of any substance?

I thought I did that with my earlier post on the subject? These were just my thoughts on the topic. As for advances in audio, have a look at the list of your equipment above. All that gear and the circuit designs looks like it was released last year....LOL
You are partially right.  Just a few examples are kevlar and nomex speaker cones, diamond tweeters, ICs in the digital and analogue equipment, smds, solid state amplifier and power supplies and so on.

Offline treblid

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2011, 12:48:02 PM »
gthicm, you mentioned psychoacoustics, people love to bring that up frequently (esp to support their blind testing faith).  Isn't that good enough reason already to accept all this "voodoo"?

Quote
Hearing is not a purely mechanical phenomenon of wave propagation, but is also a sensory and perceptual event; in other words, when a person hears something, that something arrives at the ear as a mechanical sound wave traveling through the air, but within the ear it is transformed into neural action potentials. These nerve pulses then travel to the brain where they are perceived. Hence, in many problems in acoustics, such as for audio processing, it is advantageous to take into account not just the mechanics of the environment, but also the fact that both the ear and the brain are involved in a personís listening experience.
You are not a sensor, and your stereo equipment is not a machine. You are a human being who want wants to spend some time enjoying some fun and stereo equipment is the toy that gives you that enjoyment....

Back it up with facts? What do you want? An MRI? What works for one will not work for another - different people are stimulated differently. (We can generalise brain activities but every individual is unique!). Moreover some people have metal implants in their head (e.g. me) and cannot use an MRI.

If I even want to generalise, Measurements is a one size fit all method to quantify everything to a set of references. Appreciating audio doesn't fit well when defined this way....


Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2011, 01:23:45 PM »

Hi  gthicm
"I think that I gave a rather lengthy description of my equipment before but I do not mind summarizing again, to the extent it is relevant, which I doubt. "I believe it is relevant as it demonstrates that you have a system that is capable of resolving the finer points of audio.  Sorry I failed to read the entire thread where you do indeed list the eqp.

"beliefs in audio, without any support, technical or otherwise, and based on the theory of golden ears or I can hear it, should be challenged.  What better place to do this than on an audio forum?"Agreed and a healthy situation, please continue to contribute as it appears you are well versed and an experienced Audiophile (I hate that word, anything with phile at the end has connotations in my small brain).

I think that like many of us you have tried a fair few pieces of equipment to arrive where you are today and I for one am very interested in your thoughts and experiences for all things audio and music.  I also agree that in fundamental terms we have not gone a huge distance past what the 50 ies engineers achieved in pure music replay quality other than the new digital age which has brought some benefits in convenience.  There are a lot of youngsters out there who have never heard decent older equipment and consider a 1980's bit of kit 'vintage' WTF!  I still love my 1950's VOTT's with Vitavox and Altec drivers and am a lot less effected by the latest and greatest from the marketing boys but do fall prey to them sometimes.  For pleasurable music replay if it has no dynamics or fleshed out tones (read colouration for the newbies) and a full rich bass then I am largely disinterested.  Having been the route of small 2 way IBís driven by amps larger than them I now rest firmly in the camp minimum power maximum efficiency as it brings true living breathing sound into my life, something I will regain when my listening room is completed and looking at your extensive music eqp list we appear to have in common.

Back on thread again, yes I mostly but not totally agree with everything you change in a revealing system can effect the overall result but I would very much like to put some 'golden ears' to the double blind test but they all (well the majority) claim its too stressfull.  The club I am trying to get guys here in Perth to get involved in does not appear to have too many takers as I have put out some ideas and met with virtually no feedback so maybe most are armchair experts and do not want to get involved, most it would appear are quite willing to make big statements about this and that and this is a chance to have the proof in the pudding and put their eqp to open review and comment.
V



We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.