Author Topic: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff  (Read 13530 times)

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2011, 02:02:04 PM »
Well said, V.  But for sure, I know very, very little about good sound reproduction compared to many others who have been experimenting and openly and candidly discussing all of this for years.  The truly knowledgable ones are not large in numbers, but I try to follow their discussions on the net.

There is subjectivism, but when there is no other technical explanation for improvements being effective, I am very skeptical.  Some of these claims generate a lot of hype in small circles.  Seems a microcosm of the complained about marketing hype for new products.  Anyway, challenging these types of claims seems appropriate to advance knowledge and gain understanding.  Who knows, there may be some validity to some of these claims that might prove valuable.  Hope springs eternal!

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2445
  • Liked: 67
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2011, 08:01:28 PM »




Back on thread again, yes I mostly but not totally agree with everything you change in a revealing system can effect the overall result but I would very much like to put some 'golden ears' to the double blind test but they all (well the majority) claim its too stressfull.  The club I am trying to get guys here in Perth to get involved in does not appear to have too many takers as I have put out some ideas and met with virtually no feedback so maybe most are armchair experts and do not want to get involved, most it would appear are quite willing to make big statements about this and that and this is a chance to have the proof in the pudding and put their eqp to open review and comment.
V
Vitavox the cool looking lad from the eastern side of perth (where the wealthy live) in the hills breathing fresh air,Double blind test hmmmm testing what?
long term listening is my answer to my solutions
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline vitavoxdude

  • Beauty is in the ear of the beholder
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Liked: 60
  • Caring and sharing
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2011, 10:14:55 PM »
Yes agreed that only in the longer term in the comfort of your own armchair can you resolve the finer points but its the direct A-B comparison I am reffering to which I still beleive is a perfectly valid procedure.  I personnaly love to hear other peoples top picks as if it's better than my current 'fave rave' then I can scheme beg and scrape together the pennies to purchase said better item. Stressfull, na...it should be a bit of fun, no one is testing a persons ability to correctly identify product A from product B only which one for them they prefer and prehapts why.

Gthicm, looks like your pre amp is an impressive piece of kit and is that braodband absorbers mounted to the wall behind it???
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2011, 12:04:17 AM »
Yes agreed that only in the longer term in the comfort of your own armchair can you resolve the finer points but its the direct A-B comparison I am reffering to which I still beleive is a perfectly valid procedure.  I personnaly love to hear other peoples top picks as if it's better than my current 'fave rave' then I can scheme beg and scrape together the pennies to purchase said better item. Stressfull, na...it should be a bit of fun, no one is testing a persons ability to correctly identify product A from product B only which one for them they prefer and prehapts why.

Gthicm, looks like your pre amp is an impressive piece of kit and is that braodband absorbers mounted to the wall behind it???
V
Not sure what you are referring to. I sent some pics to Tuyen and if that one then no. These pictures were taken at a friend's place. The preamp is interesting. The design is by a friend of mine, Kevin Kennedy. He is a big believer in regulated power supplies. Those old triodes from the 1920s from battery powered radios are really special, and cheap. They are dht with thoriated filaments. Very holographic sound. The plate to line transformers are old UTC permalloy used in studio Amperex gear and they are permalloy to boot.

Offline rawl99

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Liked: 2
Re: Entropy and the suspension of disbelief
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2014, 01:29:31 PM »


The observations here seem to be very curious.  Can you explain in technical terms how copper matures for better sound?  How is silk the best dielectric material, and in what applications?  Why is teflon or any other plastic rubbish, for insulation?  Please provide technical reasons for all of this.  No voodoo please!

One mans voodoo is another mans observation and listening experience.  If one closes ones mind to possibilities, as you seem to have done given that you seem to be mentally and aurally bound by the "laws of physics" and the "certain immutable laws of physics that bound things" that you refer to a number of times.
Steve and I have similar viewpoints on this I believe.
There is no such thing as an "immutable law of physics"; there is merely a bunch of observational data that seems AT THIS POINT IN TIME WITH OUR CURRENT (LIMITED) UNDERSTANDING to fit what we observe and the mathematics that we find supports these observations.
NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These 'immutable laws' seem to keep changing as we get a deeper insight into the world around us.
You seem to write as an engineer or scientist who has been indoctrinated and brainwashed by the education system to blinker their views and follow like a sheep.  Entirely your choice if you want to do that but I , for one, and Steve for another, choose not to be so blinkered and accept that perhaps there are electrical phenomenon occurring that we (mankind, audio nuts, you pick your definition of 'we') currently are not aware that we do not understand.
I find it highly amusing that you refer to these immutable laws of physics as being gospel yet the laws change from Newtonian physics to Quantum mechanics to string theory.
And the guys that are at the cutting edge of string theory research seem to be rather strongly of the view that our real understanding of the universe in which we live is pretty damn close to Jack Schitt.
If all of the world around us is purely vibrational energy and the holographic universe is correct then why oh why oh why cannot a shatki stone have an effect on the noise spewing forth from a DAC for example???
Give me a good scientific reason (not limited by your current understanding of how energy works but incorporating the holographic model) why a device that is designed as what appears to be a sink for spurious emr cannot have an effect on a device (dac say) wherein emr is one of the gremlins we all fight with to achieve good sound.  If emr were not an issue then pcb layout, grounding etc would be of no relevance.
Have I ever heard these widgets?  No, but I will not dismiss them out-of-hand because YOUR laws of physics as you understand or interpret them suggest to you that such a widget CANNOT work.

I generally do think outside the box when dealing with issues not involving the laws of physics and well established principles of electrical engineering.  So, I guess that you would also believe that things like Shakti Stones, Brilliant Little Pebbles, the Harmonizer, painting cd edges green and Hallographs alter sound.  I guess that if someone claimed that putting coprolites near electrical devices or transducers somehow improved the sound, you would credit that these things actually affect the sound, even though there is no scientific evidence that would support these claims.  The simple answer is that it is probably psychoacoustics at work.  I do not believe that these wonder products have any merit, except for making money for their sellers.

As a dielectric, silk is not a good choice for high voltages.  I am aware of the claims that the best dielectric for interconnects and speaker cables is air.  I have made interconnects with both copper and silver wire sheathed in unbleached cotton weave.  I heard no difference in teflon insulation tight to copper and silver.  Admittedly, after only 40 years of mucking about with audio stuff I have a lot to learn, but there is simply no scientific repeatable evidence that a dielectric with the same withstand as air is better.  This is especially true in shot runs, such as hookup wire and interconnects.  While on this topic, I cannot imagine how buying cable lifters for speaker wires to keep them off the floor does anything but empty the pockets of the gullible and line the pockets of the marketeers.  If you really believe this dielectric phenomena, then better to loosely sheath naked wire in a flexible teflon tube.  At least it will be electircally well insulated and have plenty of air.

As to wire maturing, there is no scientific proof of this effect.  It could be a lot of things, including the old enemy psychoacoustics.  When you suggest that while the wire is lazily relaxing, maybe on the beach in the Riviera, its structure is changing.  I guess it is entropy at the subatomic level?  Is wire like wine, where it reaches its fullest maturation and then becomes increasingly more unpleasant?  How long does this maturing process take to have the best effect on sound?  One day, year, decade, millenia, eon after the wire is drawn or cast?  I guess you are suggesting the principle of entropy at play here with accelerated effect.  I would suggest that in 80 or 800 years, that wire would not change significantly, especially in the short runs we are talking about here, so as to have any effect on sound quality.  One can suspend disbelief, but not suspend the laws of physics.  As you can see, I do not believe in burning in wires.  There is no proof that running small currents through wire does anything to change its structure or electrical properties.  Cryogenics is different in that there are changes at the molecular level.  Whether these changes have any impact on the sound quality of wire and tubes is deabatable, at best.  So I guess you posit that anything that is older is better, as it has aged.  Accordingly, one should use old transformers, wire, solder, lugs and spades, tube sockets, tubes, RCA connectors and speaker terminals.  Is this maturation effect only for copper wire, or is it applicable to all metals?

How something sounds does involve a degree of subjectivism.  However, there are certain immutable laws of physics that bound things.  To me, the claims of mature wire and air dielectric in short runs of wire making a sonic difference, discernable to the best of listeners, are outside the bounds of reality.  So far, there is nothiing presented here that would convince me there is reason to believe otherwise.


Last highlight first.
Steve and I went down to OzMillsy's place  to have a listen to his radford amp.  Ozmillsy was not 100% happy with what it was doing.  Steve asked Millsy what was missing and after being described to him he had an aha moment and thought he had just the ticket to fix er up.
So down the hill we went, had a listen, and Steve did some surgery and a listening we went. 
The change for the better was quite amazing and after I drilled Steve for information he advised me and Millsy that he had inserted 3 or 4 ( I don't remember 100%) pieces approx 1-2cm long of one of his super-special wires that he uses in his Type 50 amps.
According to your theory 2-3cm of wire could make zero to imperceptible difference but the change was most profound in liquidity, flow and engagement.
after hearing that I prodded Steve endlessly that weekend until he gave me some scraps of said wire to put in my amp and the change in my valve amp was of the same character as the Radford.
All up I put 4 pieces approx 1/2 to 3/4 inch long in my amp.  The improvement was noticed by all the folks that have heard it since.  Must be our good friend Palcebo hey.
And please save me the Double-Blind crap.  When one is developing cables, upgrades for components, etc etc it is in ones own best interest to be harshly and ruthlessly critical of ones observations.  Kidding yourself gets you nowhere really rapidly.

Back to the beginning of the highlights:
Painting CD edges green it appears can have an effect.  Alters the reflection off the edge of the disc of the stray/scattered laser light altering the accuracy of reading edge transitions in the CD.
A hallograph appears to be purely a resonant device. As to it effect, I have no idea, never tried them.  Do have a d combination of diffusion/absorbtion on my back wall which significantly alters the soundstaging in all dimensions.
Prove to me that Silk is not a good dielectric at high voltages.  It may not be a good insulator but that is not what you have said.
If you heard no difference in teflon insulation tight to copper and silver then I suggest you need to get out more.  I made exactly this change in my amp and the difference was most significant.  I had a colleague with many decades of experience who I have been helping in testing some cables for him who came over after I had made this change in the dielectric and he was quite astonished at the change in system presentation (for the better all around)...before I even told him I had made a change or what it was.
My cable lifters consist of slices of a pool noodle with a V-Groove cut into the top of them.  About $2 for 20.
They lift the cable away from carpet which is often not a great dielectric and they also lift the cable above the ground plane of the steel-reinforced concrete slab allowing the electric field to form more evenly around the cable.\

Scientific proof of wire maturing??? What exactly do you want please.  Dfine exactly what measurements or scientific 'proof' will 'prove' that the wire has matured.  Kindof tricky isn't it.

I dont use silver and stainless steel makes a great cutlery,
ps:You seem to ask questions but not answer a simple question like can you hear a difference between silver wire or copper wire?

I thought I was clear when I said that I preferred silver in cutlery.  It makes no difference in the system.  I do not believe that decent wire with proper connectors makes any difference, unless the system has some anomalies, like mismatch in impedances, or the like. So that answers your one question?  How about having a go at some of mine in this thread?  How old is old enough, for copper wire, for example?

So why in EVERY system I have ever played with do cables make a very significant difference??
And these have been from a few thousand to over a million, vinyl, digital, tape whatever.
Has every system been that flawed that the cables are fixing some nature of flaw or incompatibility at every point of interconnection????
If so you may want to contact some of the most respected brands and designers in the hifi world and tell them that they are all idiots and are selling 'flawed' or 'faulty' gear.

How old is old enough??
Honestly I cannot give any inkling of an answer to this but I experience regularly first-hand what Steve is talking about with regards to effect of old wire and old components such as chokes and transformers.

I do agree with some of the above.  But getting back to the OP, I was challenging and still challenge the assertions made, especially about maturing of copper and its effect on sound.  Frankly, I have not read or heard anything about that before so it is rather novel.  It also doesn't make any sense and is highly dubious.  I have never spoken about this brand or that, but the effects of this mature wire and wire in general.  Why should there be any ego involved in that?

I think that I gave a rather lengthy description of my equipment before but I do not mind summarizing again, to the extent it is relevant, which I doubt.  The horn system is bass in an Artec Onken horn design with two JBL 150-4s, for midrange a Vitavox S5 with Vitavox horn and for tweeter at the moment a Fostex T-900A.  Active crossover is a Pioneer D23, amps are 300b with permalloy outputs, KT90 PP, Sun 2A3, 845 SET, Class A Krell50 clone built from kit, Aikido preamp, switchable DHT preamp for 26, 01A or 12A DHT with vintage (ugh) UTC HA-133 line to plate transformers, SB3 slaved to Empiircal Audio Pace-Car II, feeding i2s to an Aya II with double crown, a TDA1541A dac from a Chinese kit with tube analogue stage (not push pull), AN Dac clone with AD1865 with SS analogue stage, modded Lite 60 with the crappy PP anlogue stage removed for Sowter transformers and turntables, SUTs, Piccolo headamp, Aikido phono and a D3A phono with 5687 gyrator outputs, all tube regulated power supplies.  Cables and cords mixes of DIY silver, silver tinned copper and copper, Kimber, Blue Jeans Belden and some other stuff.  Another system running modified ASL Hurricanes with KT88 PP, Vcaps and Mundorfs driving B&W 803Ds.  In the storeroom various horn drivers, RAAL ribbons, Peerless drivers, NAD sand amp, Sony TA-2000F and bunches of other junk to experiment with.  What that tells anyone, I am not sure.  I would say the systems are pretty resolving.  Oh yeah, stashes of all kinds of tubes squirreled away with some oddballs like 6f8g used in place of 6sn7s with a stash of Tungsol roundplates and many other brands and 7N7s too.  There is it is for what it is worth.  Fun for some equipment worshippers I suppose.

My belief in audio is just get on with it so long as it does not commit a murder.  Music likes are eclectic and run from classical to rock to world music, Brazilian, Indian, Jazz and so on.  Beliefs in religion probably should not be challenged, but beliefs in audio, without any support, technical or otherwise, and based on the theory of golden ears or I can hear it, should be challenged.  What better place to do this than on an audio forum?

You prefer silver as cutlery but you use it in your system.  Is that because you cannot hear any difference???
Mario can.  I can. Steve can.
And I have to say that when I read the gear you use that does indeed surrpise me no end.  You seem to have a lovely collection of equipment with which to play with.

Steve and I have the same view on a number of things.
First and foremost is that there is no such thing as an 'accurate' component, capacitor, piece of wire, cable, speaker yadda yadda and that building a system is most definitely a case of adding a plethora of distortions and colourations together to achieve a result that sounds as much as we can like live music.
'Accurate' is a bunch of crap to be blunt (oh yeah, sorry...IMHO of course)
ALL!!!!!! of the new state-of-the-art "Accurate" Hifi systems that I experience are as bland and boring and un-engaging as Bat S__t.

The very best systems that I have experienced interestingly enough have all utilised a pretty decent spattering of vintage parts.  Yuk you said.  Who cares say I as long as they sound great.

Cheers
Rawl

Offline Greg Erskine

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • Liked: 2
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2014, 06:56:09 PM »
Hi rawl99,

Why dredge up an old thread?

gthicm disappeared years ago. He probably realised this forum was not the right place for a discussion of his views.

regards

Offline rawl99

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Liked: 2
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2014, 08:04:19 AM »
Hi rawl99,

Why dredge up an old thread?

gthicm disappeared years ago. He probably realised this forum was not the right place for a discussion of his views.

regards

Hi Greg,

Cause I had not read this thread before and felt like having a little vent I guess.  I find it very interesting that folks such as gthicm 'demand' proof but offer absolutely nothing in the way of what valid 'proof' may be to support the assertions made/found through the experience of listening.
It is still a reasonably common occurrence over there on good ol SNA where the measurement folks keep demanding 'scientific proof' of whatever is being discussed and every time I ask exactly what precisely constitutes valid proof that something is better eg if measurements then what measurements, what are the optimum values etc and consistently 100.0% of the time the conversation gets deflected and nobody comes back with anything more useful than 'measurements show everything' and 'without measurements audio would never have advanced as much as it has' etc etc......same sort of stuff as gthicm..

Now the most interesting part is that I think the majority of folks on this forum are probably of the viewpoint that in a very few regards audio has progressed since the 'ole days but in most regards it has probably stayed static or gone backwards.
Again most of the locals I think have experienced the significant changes that a piece of wire can make in an audio component.
If not then more tinkering is required imv. ;D

Most of the threads seem to have gone pretty quiet for some time here and had some 'spare' time and was having a browse and came across this little gem and so decided to dump some of my opposing views and experience on 'paper' just for giggles.

That would mostly sum up why resurrect an old thread.

'Cause most of the new ones are very quiet.

Rawl

Offline vitavoxdude

  • Beauty is in the ear of the beholder
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Liked: 60
  • Caring and sharing
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2014, 01:54:17 PM »
Hey Rawl, some nice loooooong posts, they entertained me anyway and yes, it's gone quiet here at the KDAC forum but it is Summer.  IMV audio went all technical and threw out the Baby with the bathwater in its constant pursuit for ever greater and smaller numbers that the shirt salesmen could throw at the public to claim their units was better than others units.

The 70's gave us disco with its big bass requirements and Valve amps faded into distant memory for all but the dedicated.  The receiver wars of the 80's saw Pioneer and the likes with 200w/ch outputs and tiny IB Acoustic research boxes.  Digital half way through the next decade saw another step backwards which is only being put right now by the dedicated and SACD was a flop commercially.  I am not even going to talk about Elcassette or DAT as they never made inroads into the domestic environment but the same thing lead all of these 'technologies' - better sound with better spec's.  I for one do not feel that many of these technologies achieved what they set out to do.

Where the real difference comes in IMV is the quality of the music as even basic gear sounds pretty damn good when fed great music.  ON that note, nearly all the so called 'Audiophile ' recordings that I own contain very little great music and it usually a small ensemble (cheap to produce) playing simple pieces...................Something you listen to once or twice and say, OK it's clear and dynamic but...............................

As a touchy feely site many here many believe in forgetting or worrying less about the figures on the spec sheet and concentrate on getting the outcome that entertains.  That's where I am at anyway.  Hifi informs, Audio engages and entertains.

So no voodoo just clever experienced tweaking to get to that place.
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline hedalfa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1540
  • Liked: 326
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2014, 04:39:23 PM »
Rawl99 and Vitavox

I was going to write something but a site can do it better than me. I am putting a new post 'preservation sound'. Check it out.  :P

Offline terry j

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Liked: 25
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2014, 09:11:34 PM »


Hi Greg,


Most of the threads seem to have gone pretty quiet for some time here and had some 'spare' time and was having a browse and came across this little gem and so decided to dump some of my opposing views and experience on 'paper' just for giggles.

That would mostly sum up why resurrect an old thread.



Rawl

hey, what the feck, I'm bored too so why not, I'll bite. Same as you rawlsy. (man, sorry, forgot your first name, greg?? starts with a g I am pretty sure. Sorry about that, but for some strange reason names are one of my weak points)

wow, inserting a quote sure becomes a mess, hope this works out right.




One mans voodoo is another mans observation and listening experience.  If one closes ones mind to possibilities, as you seem to have done given that you seem to be mentally and aurally bound by the "laws of physics" and the "certain immutable laws of physics that bound things" that you refer to a number of times.
Steve and I have similar viewpoints on this I believe.
There is no such thing as an "immutable law of physics"; there is merely a bunch of observational data that seems AT THIS POINT IN TIME WITH OUR CURRENT (LIMITED) UNDERSTANDING to fit what we observe and the mathematics that we find supports these observations.
NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These 'immutable laws' seem to keep changing as we get a deeper insight into the world around us.
You seem to write as an engineer or scientist who has been indoctrinated and brainwashed by the education system to blinker their views and follow like a sheep.  Entirely your choice if you want to do that but I , for one, and Steve for another, choose not to be so blinkered and accept that perhaps there are electrical phenomenon occurring that we (mankind, audio nuts, you pick your definition of 'we') currently are not aware that we do not understand.
I find it highly amusing that you refer to these immutable laws of physics as being gospel yet the laws change from Newtonian physics to Quantum mechanics to string theory.
And the guys that are at the cutting edge of string theory research seem to be rather strongly of the view that our real understanding of the universe in which we live is pretty damn close to Jack Schitt.
If all of the world around us is purely vibrational energy and the holographic universe is correct then why oh why oh why cannot a shatki stone have an effect on the noise spewing forth from a DAC for example???
Give me a good scientific reason (not limited by your current understanding of how energy works but incorporating the holographic model) why a device that is designed as what appears to be a sink for spurious emr cannot have an effect on a device (dac say) wherein emr is one of the gremlins we all fight with to achieve good sound.  If emr were not an issue then pcb layout, grounding etc would be of no relevance.
Have I ever heard these widgets?  No, but I will not dismiss them out-of-hand because YOUR laws of physics as you understand or interpret them suggest to you that such a widget CANNOT work.

phew, got enough weasel words in there yet? String theory. really? well, when it becomes more than some high falutin theorising in multi dimensions and becomes grounded in something approaching reality then maybe we can discuss it.

WHY is it that so much of audio (as espoused on forums such as this one) has to invoke the 'cutting edge' of science?? If we were in the fifties, well it would be couched in 'atomic' terms. A year or so ago it was all about 'quantum', now we are in the holographic universe? with string theory to back us up??

Hows about we turn your rhetoric around, and YOU give us a good 'scientific' reason WHY a shakti stone might work.



Quote
Last highlight first.
Steve and I went down to OzMillsy's place  to have a listen to his radford amp.  Ozmillsy was not 100% happy with what it was doing.  Steve asked Millsy what was missing and after being described to him he had an aha moment and thought he had just the ticket to fix er up.
So down the hill we went, had a listen, and Steve did some surgery and a listening we went. 
The change for the better was quite amazing and after I drilled Steve for information he advised me and Millsy that he had inserted 3 or 4 ( I don't remember 100%) pieces approx 1-2cm long of one of his super-special wires that he uses in his Type 50 amps.
According to your theory 2-3cm of wire could make zero to imperceptible difference but the change was most profound in liquidity, flow and engagement.
after hearing that I prodded Steve endlessly that weekend until he gave me some scraps of said wire to put in my amp and the change in my valve amp was of the same character as the Radford.
All up I put 4 pieces approx 1/2 to 3/4 inch long in my amp.  The improvement was noticed by all the folks that have heard it since.  Must be our good friend Palcebo hey.
And please save me the Double-Blind crap.  When one is developing cables, upgrades for components, etc etc it is in ones own best interest to be harshly and ruthlessly critical of ones observations.  Kidding yourself gets you nowhere really rapidly.

(very hard to make sense of this formatting, hope the post turns out right!)

Cebo is my pal as well, a good friend as it were, but I wonder why you would dismiss so readily the danger of placebo? It is, after all, a well established phenomenon is it not? (maybe you dispute the reality of it?)

In any case, in the words of South Park, I call 'shenanigans' that merely by inserting a few centimetres of 'special wire' would make any difference at all. I am willing to put that to the test, but how to do it when before the act you deny the use of blinding?

All we have left then is your assertion. And I don't argue that, I DO agree that you heard a difference. Yet, from your post it seems you claim it is a fact, that others would also perceive such a difference. How then do we resolve such a conundrum??

Quote

Scientific proof of wire maturing??? What exactly do you want please.  Dfine exactly what measurements or scientific 'proof' will 'prove' that the wire has matured.  Kindof tricky isn't it.

I cannot answer for him, but I suspect that evidence he would accept would be you being able to hear a difference between a 'raw' wire and a 'matured' wire. not so tricky. BUT, I think he would need you to do so without knowing which was which. NOW it is kind of tricky, agreed.

Quote
So why in EVERY system I have ever played with do cables make a very significant difference??

Actually, this IS interesting. As you probably know, cables are way down on my list, but curiosity and all that stuff, you reckon it would make a difference in my system?? (honest question, not just arguing on a forum) That would make for a different gtg. Who knows, maybe I too would become a convert? Out of curiosity, where would you target first, ICs, speaker cables, what??



Quote

You prefer silver as cutlery but you use it in your system.  Is that because you cannot hear any difference???
Mario can.  I can. Steve can.

Got it. Can you explain exactly WHY it is that anyone else should simply take you at your word? You refuse the use of any method designed to remove our pal Cebo, specifically 'spare me the blind testing crap', so again all we have left is your word. I do NOT think you are lying, I fully believe your sincerity, yet I also know how easy it is for us to fool ourselves.

HOW will you be able to show me (anyone) this ability of yours other than we all simply have to believe you?

Quote
  Who cares say I as long as they sound great.

Cheers
Rawl

agreed.

SOOoooo, how then do we go about getting a handle on some of this stuff?? You and I come from opposite sides of the river bank, can we meet in the middle?? HOW would we go about proving or disproving these claims, WHICH claim would we look at first??

Which claim would YOU back as being the banker? A cm of wire inserted in a chain? I mean that would be easy, but I think you'd have to have rocks in your head to bank on that one. Define 'very significant' when used with your claim that every system you have played with regarding cables. That seems to me to indicate 'very easily discerned', so I am wondering then why if it is so easy to discern you state 'spare me the double blind crap'.

which is it, easy or hard?

So, just for giggles, where do we go from here? you up for it??



thanks very much for visiting, it WAS a real pleasure to have all of you around. I know the system was not to your liking, but that is completely ok. I actually enjoyed the chats, and I think we have more in common than not.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2014, 09:42:11 PM »
Why does anyone have to prove anything?

Inserting 1cm of wire in a couple of spots in my power amp indeed made a dramatic difference.   Do we dare try to explain why, not really.  I mean there is the obvious candidates to discuss, like a change in inductance, or capacitance, or impedance, or a combination.   But seriously, does it matter?

The romantic in me likes to think this unobtainium wire has been energised by spending time between the breasts of a sleeping bucksome vestel virgin.  

A difference was perceived and shared.   Dismiss it or not.    Arent you tired of the same old arguments.   Like the marathon thread about power cables on DTV.  A cast of thousands were lining up to call BS, stating blind tests were needed to prove it (yourself included).    I personally sent a home made power cable to some stranger,  this person organised a properly constructed blind test,  he passed the test.   You all acknowledged the results.

And here you are, having the same old argument all over again.   What we see here is no real interest in proving anything,  just innane banter that has all been covered before, time and time again.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 09:44:05 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline terry j

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Liked: 25
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2014, 10:01:26 PM »
just logged on to say I remembered rawls name is craig! does not start with g. duhh.

So tell me then millsy, you let rawls post go without a comment at all. It was clearly a denigration of that other fellow, I take craig up on it and all of a sudden it is me having the same old tired argument??

at least have a bit of consistency yeah?

in any case, if YOU are tired of the old argument then fine, stay out of it.

I asked in all good faith where we might go from here, HOW we might or might not settle this tired old argument. I asked craig. if you want to contribute constructively then do so.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2014, 10:13:40 PM »
I am constructively suggesting that there is better things to do, than try to settle arguments over what people can perceive.

I thought that was blindingly obvious, but obviously not.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline terry j

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Liked: 25
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2014, 10:19:33 PM »
that begs the question, how (other than on audio forums) does anyone demonstrate what they perceive?

Usually by showing that.

I too thought that blindingly obvious.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2014, 10:28:01 PM »
Nothing *has* to be proven or demonstrated.  

I have no doubt it could, if it has to be.  

But why?  It wont change anything in your mind.  You'll just wander off and pick the same fight with someone else.  DTV power cable thread, this thread, other threads, there is a common theme,   your fun is in the fighting.

So pick a fight if you must. [Shrugs]

It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline stevenvalve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1489
  • Liked: 259
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2014, 12:40:17 AM »
Ok, A fight it is. Lets have words at twenty paces, Draw your syllable and shoot.

Offline vitavoxdude

  • Beauty is in the ear of the beholder
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Liked: 60
  • Caring and sharing
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2014, 02:11:13 AM »
Oh Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo not again PLEASE.
Keep to useful information to share and leave individuals crossing swords be they intellectual or otherwise out of this.
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2014, 07:07:44 AM »
Ok, A fight it is. Lets have words at twenty paces, Draw your syllable and shoot.
Hahaha,   try limiting Craig or Jerry to 20 words.     :P
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2014, 08:04:43 AM »
Oh Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo not again PLEASE.
Yes,,,,, Again.   :-\  This "prove it" argument over cables or wire has been done to death, time and time again.  People have gone to the trouble of demonstrating what they hear to Jerry on DTV,   despite these learnings, we are inflicted with the same line all over again.     There is no point to the argument, except for having the argument itself.    Spare us the noise.
  
Quote
Keep to useful information to share and leave individuals crossing swords be they intellectual or otherwise out of this.
Crossing swords on a public forum, brings unsuspecting bystanders into it.    So,  if all Jerry wants to do is have a fight (which is his track record),   then go right ahead, all the bystanders can treat it for what it is,  nothing more than a spectacle (ie: catfight in the schoolyard).

Useful information. Ok, Jerry snuck in some probing questions about his system.  What did people think?   What I heard 2nd hand (as I wasnt there),  is people were suprised by how good it sounded. Maybe others can elaborate.  The other question was, would changing cables on *his* system make a difference?   Thats an interesting one.  I've heard a few deqx active systems, and it's remarkable how close they sound.  The deqx is a leveller,  it pulls together the system and delivers coherent sound that is balanced - taking alot of variables out of play, the big one being the room.   You could change cables, that has a dramatic effect on the sound,  jerry then recalibrates the deqx, and it's back to what it was. Levelled.

So would changing cables on his system be relevant?    Maybe.  The deqx deals in frequency response. Not distortion.  Is it worth mucking around with on his system?   These are not questions for others to answer.  It's for Jerry to share with us what he has or hasnt already tried.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 08:19:46 AM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline springcreek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Liked: 74
Re: Holy wire to build your killer Stuff
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2014, 08:22:19 AM »
Oh man. This dead horse has been flogged to pulp...is it only me that can't give a toss what Terry J thinks or what he can or can't hear? If you don't feed it, it will die. Some things are best left dead.

I have way better things to do with my time

Really enjoyed Rawls posts
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 08:36:38 AM by springcreek »