Author Topic: New John Kenny SABER DAC  (Read 33322 times)

Offline bhobba

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2011, 06:54:00 PM »
Besides the opamps built into the chip bill ;D

Of course.  But having heard it it sounds better to me than the output stage of the WFS which is discreet.  The devil is in the detail.  

Having heard both the JK Saber and Killer - no contest the Killer wins hands down - but it is not meant for the market the Killer is aimed at.  It is meant for the market the WFS is aimed at.  I have done a direct comparison to the WFS that was at the shootout about a year ago the Killer won. The WFS, as the people who were at the shootout know, is glarey with a cold top end and sibilance issues.  The comparison of the WFS was done with another person who verified my findings.  The thing is the JK Saber has none of those issues - simply sounding a bit dry.  Since it is half the price of the WFS obviously if you are in the market for that type of DAC it is the one to get.  At the shootout a few people commented the WFS should not really have been there - the other DAC's were clearly better.  I will say IMHO unlike the WFS it would not have been disgraced in that company but the order would have still been the same.

Thanks
Bill
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 06:57:43 PM by bhobba »

tuyen

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2011, 06:57:12 PM »
Hi jkeny,

Using Windows 7 Ultimate on an Asus 1005PE eeePC (atom n450 1.6ghz, 2gb ram), foobar/pureplayer, fidelizer OS process optimizer.  Using EAC to extract audio from CDs.   All hi-res music have been downloaded.

Any comments on the above?  


Hi Terry,

I'm picking the +ve output phase from the wm8741 chip and just discarding the -ve phase. Hence why I am getting a 6db drop from the full output if it was balanced. Does that sound about right?  would it be easy to connect a valve output stage to the output of the WM8741 to get more gain?  Or is there a proper way of converting the balanced to unbalanced first?

Me and a mate heard an valve output stage using siemens D3a tube and sounded pretty neat. Apparently 'simple' to build and I wouldn't mind hooking it onto the end of the wm8741 if it would work :)

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 06:58:59 PM by tuyen »

Offline zenelectro

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2011, 07:06:23 PM »
John, I can't seem to find any real information about your JK DAC.
Do you have any specs or information WRT the design? Does it have bal / unbal outputs? Do you just pick off 1 phase of the DAC OP or have you got
an analog phase 'summing' stage to convert the DACs bal to unbal? Are there any special clocks used?

Hi Terry

I see John has promised to post the details once it has completed it tour.  But having had it in my system I can tell you it has a USB input and unbalanced RCA outs.  Besides the connector for charging its internal batteries and a switch to change from charge to use that's it. John has also stated the output is taken direct from the Saber chip without any output stage.

Thanks
Bill

I just had a look at the 9023 (replaces 9022) data and did a bit of poking around net.

Looks like 9022 (3) is very good value for money at around $2 each - they must be selling 10's of 1000's of them.
The upside is very high performance from a single supply dac that has an inbuilt OP driver. It's a no brainer if you
want best performance on a tight budget.

The down side is the internal negitive voltage supply for OP opamp is derived from a charge pump, (sort of switch mode supply).
I would imagine the 1.2v core voltage is also derived from some sort of DC to DC converter.

It is a good example of how far technology has come to get this performance from a 2 buck single supply chip.

Which dac chip does WFS use Bill?

T

Offline bhobba

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2011, 07:28:37 PM »
Which dac chip does WFS use Bill?

ES9018.  It actually uses a discreet output stage (or so I have been told anyway) taken from the voltage rather than current out.

Thanks
Bill

Offline jkeny

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2011, 08:13:55 PM »
Hi jkeny,

Using Windows 7 Ultimate on an Asus 1005PE eeePC (atom n450 1.6ghz, 2gb ram), foobar/pureplayer, fidelizer OS process optimizer.  Using EAC to extract audio from CDs.   All hi-res music have been downloaded.

Any comments on the above?
Yep, it's a good start. This is WIn 7 SP1, right? The Sp1 is important as it has much better USB drivers. I would also suggest trying JPlay.eu   - it is the best audio playback software I've heard. Use it in Kernel Streaming mode with Hiface & 1 sample buffer (called directlink in Jplay).

Quote
Hi Terry,

I'm picking the +ve output phase from the wm8741 chip and just discarding the -ve phase. Hence why I am getting a 6db drop from the full output if it was balanced. Does that sound about right?  would it be easy to connect a valve output stage to the output of the WM8741 to get more gain?  Or is there a proper way of converting the balanced to unbalanced first?

Me and a mate heard an valve output stage using siemens D3a tube and sounded pretty neat. Apparently 'simple' to build and I wouldn't mind hooking it onto the end of the wm8741 if it would work :)

Thanks!

That would explain the "lack quite a bit of energy and body/weight in the sound." then!!It will also explain why Kajak heard a cardboard cut-out of the sound!! Not a great comparison with a tube based output stage of the KillerDac is it?

 If you want a balanced to SE tube based solution I would suggest a Beam Deflection Tube preamplifier from John Swenson - it's a very elegant solution - look up BDT preamplifier & you'll find the schematic & info. I've built one myself but it's out of commission at the moment.

Offline jkeny

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2011, 08:41:05 PM »

I just had a look at the 9023 (replaces 9022) data and did a bit of poking around net.

Looks like 9022 (3) is very good value for money at around $2 each - they must be selling 10's of 1000's of them.
The upside is very high performance from a single supply dac that has an inbuilt OP driver. It's a no brainer if you
want best performance on a tight budget.

The down side is the internal negitive voltage supply for OP opamp is derived from a charge pump, (sort of switch mode supply).
I would imagine the 1.2v core voltage is also derived from some sort of DC to DC converter.

It is a good example of how far technology has come to get this performance from a 2 buck single supply chip.

Which dac chip does WFS use Bill?

T


Zen, I answered as I did because I wanted people to judge the sound of this JKDAC on it's sonic merits & not have expectation bias based on specs, etc. which happens all too often. We don't just hear with our ears but with our brains & bring all our expectations to this audition, sometimes clouding what we actually hear!

When I first investigated this DAC chip, I too had initial prejudice against the internal opamp output stage, the charge pump & the internally generated negative supply for all the same reasons that your state Zen - probably SMPS & charge pumps have a bad press in audio as do opamps. I even posted such comments, about a year ago, along these same lines. My initial experiments, were not very encouraging but I realised I had a noise issue which I solved & then heard the sound of this DAC & frankly was surprised by it's sound as were those few who subsequently tried it. I've refined it since then & find it an even better sound now. I have compared it to a friend's Buffalo II DAC with all the tricked out power supplies & IV output stages that Twisted Pear supply & he & I both agree that the JKDAC sounds as good if not better than the Buffalo.

This fact & that it also beats the W4S reinforces the fact that it's all about implementation - the superiority of discrete to opamp output stages is only realised by the few who know how to do it properly. And there are plenty of examples of it not being done properly in both the commercial world & DIY world!     

As I've said all along, it also has the benefit of portability as a headphone driver. If you do a bit more googling, you will find that this is the DAC chip used in the Nuforce UDAC (& UDAC2) - you will see that they also used it to drive headphones directly (in the UDAC anyway) so if you want to check out what headphones work with it, look up the Nuforce uDac. BTW, the DAC's output impedance is stated by others to be 200ohm. I have driven 32ohm headphones without distortion or lacking in bass.

It's also the DAC chip used in the soon to be released, Peachtree DACit.

They haven't realised how to maximise the performance of this DAC chip & as a result are lagging behind in the sonics. Of course neither of these DACs use my version of the Hiface USB front end & as a result I reckon their sonics suffer! The uDac initially used a PCM2707 & now a Tenor chip. I don't know what the DACit uses probably a cMedia USB receiver chip?

So there you have it - all the detail you wanted to know & a bit more maybe?    
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 09:03:27 PM by jkeny »

Offline zenelectro

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2011, 08:57:53 PM »
Hi jkeny,

Using Windows 7 Ultimate on an Asus 1005PE eeePC (atom n450 1.6ghz, 2gb ram), foobar/pureplayer, fidelizer OS process optimizer.  Using EAC to extract audio from CDs.   All hi-res music have been downloaded.

Any comments on the above?  


Hi Terry,

I'm picking the +ve output phase from the wm8741 chip and just discarding the -ve phase. Hence why I am getting a 6db drop from the full output if it was balanced. Does that sound about right?  would it be easy to connect a valve output stage to the output of the WM8741 to get more gain?  Or is there a proper way of converting the balanced to unbalanced first?

Me and a mate heard an valve output stage using siemens D3a tube and sounded pretty neat. Apparently 'simple' to build and I wouldn't mind hooking it onto the end of the wm8741 if it would work :)

Thanks!


Tuyen,

WRT 8741, or any bal OP dac they have a fully bal OP architecture to lower distortion by cancelling even order dist, ie; 2nd 4th etc.
What you end up with is lower distortion but prediminantly odd order.

So picking 1 phase may even sound fuller and richer than fully balanced because more even order distortion.  I haven't tried it
so I can't say for sure.

There are many ways to convert bal to unbal. The easiest is with a good transformer. They can also add a bit of mojo to the sound
and a HQ transformer generally sounds very musical. I recommend cinemag / jensen / lundahl. Probably Cinemag is the best bang for buck.

You can also just use a simple tube circuit, no need to go to complexity of the swenson cct. 1 phase is fed into cathode other
into grid. The R values need to be juggled but I think Lampizator has essentially this type of cct.

Another approach is a simple tube differential pair - these can sound very good. The OP is fully balanced but each phase is
almost identical.

There are plenty of ways to skin a cat so to speak.

I'd start with the transformer, it's simple and not too expensive. I have an ESS2008 (24 bit sabre) dac that has just a simple
Lundahl transformer on dac OP.

T
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 09:05:46 PM by zenelectro »

tuyen

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2011, 03:32:37 PM »
Thanks for the comments John. Yup, SP1.  Will check out jplay.. thanks

Indeed, the WM8741 chip can benefit from an active gain stage. Like I posted in another thread, my opinion of the Audio-GD NFB-2 which uses dual WM8741 and with discrete gain stage actually sounded not too bad. This unit was also there on the day, so we did pretty much direct comparison. Definitely had the energy, weight & 'life' that the wm8741 running in passive lacked (but it also had some negative points for me too.. mainly the congestiveness, overall grain(esp noticeable in the highs) & didn't sound as liquid/fluid)  Hence why I  am thinking of simple/easy and hopefully cheap way of adding a gain stage (whether it be tube based of transformer based) to see what happens.


Hi Terry,

Many thanks for the advice. Will check out the various line trannies available from those companies.  Have made some enquiries with sowter UK on pair of 9545E that fikus recommends. I can also try tranny output with the behringer src2496 that is lying around.   Which model lundahls have you got?    600ohm:600ohm is OK?

http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TRANSPORT/behringer/Behringer.html




Offline kajak12

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Re: New John Kenny SABER DAC
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2011, 04:42:27 PM »
Me and a mate heard an valve output stage using siemens D3a tube and sounded pretty neat. Apparently 'simple' to build and I wouldn't mind hooking it onto the end of the wm8741 if it would work :)

Thanks!

some ideas tuyen not much money
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320733487475
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220819157218
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320733487469
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time