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Offline rhlauranna

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DDDAC-DSD
« on: February 12, 2015, 10:40:09 PM »
well, I am rather sure that there is "more" to come in the future, so let me move this from DSD-recommendations to this place here:

"Quote from: rhlauranna on January 11, 2015, 03:36:02 AM

    ...while we are waiting for Doede to come out with his DDDAC-DSD.

Hi R,
Would you please share inside progress on this? I really keen Getting my hand on one!

Chanh"


Well, this is a question that you should ask Doede directly... I hardly know anything… and yes, on the contrary I encourage you not to ask Doede because he hardly has ever any time, and the more he gets kept off the smaller becomes the time frame he has at his disposal for research…

What I can say is, that we are long time going pregnant with the idea of having/getting a DDDAC-DSD, and wherever flying around the globe it is already long time cooking in Doede’s head regarding that matter…

But, as I told already elsewhere, it is quite a different thing whether only ever “dreaming” of something and barking around how “bad” or  “disappointing” other (DSD-)DACs are and what they all do (wrong) and to develop a DSD-DAC on its own with that know-how in engineering technology that is necessary to solve the problem on this highest level and adequately “handle” the data that way that we are now generally used to (and which are still not yet finished) with the DDDAC1543 and DDDAC1792…

believe me, more than two years ago I was the one to urge Doede to develop such a thing… initially the motivation for him to do so was rather restricted, but regarding all these dramatic positive results in reproduction reached so far with the other DDDACs in the meantime, he more and more faced the solution of this task… and at the beginning of last year we thought (Doede thought) perhaps having some prototype for initial tests ready for around Christmas last year…

…but as it turned out DSD is still another level in highest end engineering, an even much higher level (I cannot “judge” this personally, I can only listen to what I am told)… to bring it “really” to the point, the problem is not to build just a “simple” DSD-DAC, to build one at all, but to build one on exactly that level of the two other DDDAC1543 and DDDAC1792… much more genius has to be put into developing and the whole affair is much more time consuming as initially expected…

so, there is by no means anything “ready” yet… the only thing that I can tell, is, that I am waiting as urgently as any other one interested, and that, when it will be ready, the initial tests will be held here on my system… why ? well, I told already, I know of no system on the globe – so far – that would be able to fully reveal the true capabilities of the qualities of the different Doede DACs (think of the 500 horse powers of Formula I to bring onto the road without squeaking)…

… and my intention is to get Jean Hiraga and his long time editor here together to hopefully initiate some sort of “qualified” test and report regarding that matter…

I am deeply convinced, that the process that is fulfilling here during the last years and the ones to come, is not only hobby, it is much more, it is HiFi-history in the making… and I am very proud to be part of it..

The only “problem” is that everything regarding DDDAC-DSD is still in an embryonic phase, but it is to come…

« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 09:59:58 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline Chanh

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2015, 12:20:50 AM »
Many thanks R for the post. As always, your answers are in depth and details.
There were much discussions of DSD DAC from Doede. He has let the cat out back last year, 2014, was saying to watch out for something new in 2015.
I wish not bombard him with email about DSD, he is probably overhemimgly recieved many emails from others'....!
Please keep us posted if anyone of you out there aware of any new development wrt Doede DSD?

Cheers,
Chanh

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2015, 08:26:28 PM »
so, finally here is news regarding the DDDAC-DSD... last weekend Doede revealed his first basic DDDAC-DSD prototype obviously still with some minor noise issues at Utrecht in his Mother Country to the public for a first listening impression...

if you want to get more in detail. please feel free to have a look over at the DIY-site...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-411.html

let me just put together some infos and pictures from over there and add the ones that I got already from Doede some time ago, so that those who are interested may have a look as well at the technical side...









is there anybody able to distinguish this digital signal without any "viewable" digital stairs from a measured analogue one ?



and as always - for me - one of the best indicators to "see" how things are working, and as to be expected from Doede as close to perfection as it gets:



I am just wondering: contrarily to the "different" results regarding all the "different" kinds of tweaking the "different" DDDAC1794...

#4103

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-411.html

"Throughout the afternoon it became quite apparent that different people liked different thing in the Sound signature, and we all agreed that that one of the beauties of audio DIY’ing in that sound could be tailored to individual preferences."

for more information see here:

#371

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,842.360.html Reply

...the listening impressions of all the participants regarding the new DDDAC-DSD were unexpectedly as superbly unified as I hardly have ever read when being tested...

let me just quote... dwjames    #4111

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-412.html

"Great to see the potential for DSD to really offer something special, and really cool to see the innovative solution planned. I hadn't paid DSD much attention before, but now I'm interested"

and Supersurfer  #4110

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-411.html

"The big surprise for me was the DSD dac proto. This complete discrete design was intriguing, first thing we all were looking for was the DAC chip; but there was no DAC ship
This is a very cool and novel design!

[...]

This DAC sounded like no other source I have ever heard; so extremely open, transparant and detailed! This is VERY promising for things to come!"

and stijn001, #4103

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-411.html

"So then the discrete DSD prototype/breadboard, with it’s “antenna’s”, was up. Doede had already warned us that there were still some noise issues. After he’d switched it on, this were instantly noticeable but not that intrusive, something like minus (+/-) 70dB high feq. white noise, nothing to nasty. I will not try to explain why what and how, as Doede will undoubtable do this when the time comes, if this dac makes it into the real world (I do hope so) . However when the music started, everybody in the room looked at each other surprised and in awe. By this time we were pretty tuned in to Stefan’s set-up, but this sounded very different & very special. There was an instant revelation of dynamics and space and the bass was so heavy and defined, almost as if the linearity wasn’t there anymore. Was this what it was supposed to sound like.., ok, right!? Quite the eye-opener and a great prospect of things to come."
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 11:05:15 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 09:59:49 AM »
I have said it elsewhere on this forum, but perhaps the next step in dac evolution, is to develop a chipless dac.

This isnt ground breaking (others have done it), but I dont know if anyone has realised the full potential of this approach ??

I am very pleased to see this development happening, and to read that doede is pursuing the chipless dac.

Please keep us posted as this unfolds.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 01:03:05 PM »
BTW,  HF noise is a known by product of the DSD format, and DSD dac manufacturers generally filter it out.    Our DSD software converters also filter.

I've always felt this was the ironic part of hi res dsd.  A big justification of the format is the ability to store high frequencies,   but on playback they're filtered out anyway.

This is a simplistic view,  but still, gotta love the irony.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Chanh

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 04:31:27 PM »
This isnt ground breaking (others have done it), but I dont know if anyone has realised the full potential of this approach ??
Agreed! This was previously looked at but incomplete nor successful. However if it is done right, it should be ground breaking..., in that I meant, is not simply applied a low pass filter like PS Audio DS DAC or Lampizator's. I guess we will wait and see...? I was promised a phototype from the very first batch pcb to come out.  ;)

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 05:28:08 PM »
Chanh, can you point me to any information that describes what Lampizator has done?  i need to get up to speed on it, last timed i went looking it was a bit of a mystery.

If doede can retain the HF music while removing the HF noise, then he'll be onto something.   i look forward to seeing this unfold.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 05:46:34 PM »
I don't know specifics, but found some recent taken photos of the internals of the Lampizator 7 DSD DAC:












Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 06:09:12 PM »
I like what I've heard of DSD material so far, so definitely the direction I'd like to get into.

I feel there may also be some merit in using software like HQPlayer (I think Terry has mentioned it before) that realtime samples  PCM  to DSD. 

A pure DSD only DAC seems so basic compared to a PCM based DAC.   Another case of Less is more perhaps? 

I personally also like the Lampizator idea of having tube output/power stage to give that drive and 'colour' to the music.     But in saying that, I look forward to getting onto Doede's solution!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 06:10:44 PM by Tuyen »

Offline Chanh

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 08:29:32 PM »
Chanh, can you point me to any information that describes what Lampizator has done?  i need to get up to speed on it, last timed i went looking it was a bit of a mystery.
Lampizator has started this project back 2011. He publicly released infor in 2012/13, a DSD unit for sale was in 2013, if I was not mistaken. It was a $8k price tag for the basic unit. I think you could find out from his website. Probably, Tuyen is more up to date than I am?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 08:32:30 PM by Chanh »

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 10:23:06 PM »
If doede can retain the HF music while removing the HF noise, then he'll be onto something.   i look forward to seeing this unfold.

...that's exactly what is already cooking in Doede's head for quite some time now, and he told that it will not only be very special, but very very special, and he has already some specific ideas what to build and try out (please don't ask for details, I don't know, but it is all kind of "ideas" that have not yet been tried out in this specific research-area so far and of which neither him is able to anticipate the results)...

we will have a test of these "things" at the end of april just ready before the big shoot-out in Paris in June (he promised)...

« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 10:27:18 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline zenelectro

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 01:19:06 AM »
Chanh, can you point me to any information that describes what Lampizator has done?  i need to get up to speed on it, last timed i went looking it was a bit of a mystery.

If doede can retain the HF music while removing the HF noise, then he'll be onto something.   i look forward to seeing this unfold.

...that's exactly what is already cooking in Doede's head for quite some time now, and he told that it will not only be very special, but very very special, and he has already some specific ideas what to build and try out (please don't ask for details, I don't know, but it is all kind of "ideas" that have not yet been tried out in this specific research-area so far and of which neither him is able to anticipate the results)...

we will have a test of these "things" at the end of april just ready before the big shoot-out in Paris in June (he promised)...

Yes - that's called a low pass filter. You let the low frequencies through (music) and filter out the DSD noise.

There is nothing magical or special about it - just lot's of different ways to do it. Every DSD DAC that has ever
been made has some form of low pass filter.

There are 2 basic design parameters, a/ the order of the filter which means the 'steepness' of the filtering and b/ the type of response
of which there are many. The response will dictate how well the filter will handle transients. For example a Chebychev response may give
very aggressive filtering of noise but it may also show ringing when you put a square wave through it. On the other end of the spectrum
a Bessell may have not as good noise filtering but have perfect transient response - zero ringing on square wave.
   
WRT  DDDAC, the PCM1794 also has various DSD internal low pass filters which you will generally supplement with a post DAC analog filter.
The type of analog filter really depends on how much DSD OOB noise is coming out of the 1794 DAC. 

WRT Lampizator DSD DAC, he is doing something completely different of which you won't find much information about. Having said that
it's pretty clear to me what that is.

T

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 08:49:54 AM »
The DDDAC-DSD does not use the PCM1794 chip.  It uses no off the shelf DAC chip. That was the idea. :)

Offline zenelectro

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2015, 12:42:10 PM »
The DDDAC-DSD does not use the PCM1794 chip.  It uses no off the shelf DAC chip. That was the idea. :)

So then we back to the basic idea of low pass filtering a raw DSD data stream.

Same rules apply - and a few extra ones :) They are a/ jitter b/ distortion generated by the logic gates doing the data stream switching.
Most audiophile designers will rationalize that because you get rid of the DAC itself then you magically get rid of all associated evils caused by the complexity
of the DAC.

The reality is that, low pass filtering a raw DSD data stream is a great idea conceptually but you still have to deal with items a/ and b/ above,
as such a good DAC will most times sound better because it deals with those issues, despite the added complexity.
 
Addressing them requires really good knowledge of high speed design and filter design. However if you do address these various issues of jitter, non linear
switching and the right low pass filtering, I think it is the best way to go.

That's the way I am currently heading.

DACless DSD.  Maybe we should call it DLDSD!!

Getcha pants off!  :) :)

T

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2015, 06:04:18 PM »
Terry, i reckon the issue with current generation dsd dacs,   is the filtering is compromising the music.  Its not leaving the music and associated transients untouched.   Easy for me to say,  hard to prove,  but that is my hunch.   

Lampizator looks to be taking a different approach, and i "guess" that he is leveraging the natural attributes and limitations of the output tubes to address, at least in part, the significant wart that is associated with playing back 1 bit data.    People rave about the LampiDSD.  I'd love to hear it.

It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline kajak12

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2015, 11:11:26 PM »
I like what I've heard of DSD material so far, so definitely the direction I'd like to get into.

I feel there may also be some merit in using software like HQPlayer (I think Terry has mentioned it before) that realtime samples  PCM  to DSD. 

A pure DSD only DAC seems so basic compared to a PCM based DAC.   Another case of Less is more perhaps? 

I personally also like the Lampizator idea of having tube output/power stage to give that drive and 'colour' to the music.     But in saying that, I look forward to getting onto Doede's solution!
teagle(terry has a dsd music server what dsd recording you like tuyen?
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline gamve

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2015, 12:48:50 PM »
Just out of interest. How many of you guys actually listen to DSD music files played from a computer?

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 05:06:16 PM »
Just out of interest. How many of you guys actually listen to DSD music files played from a computer?
Why bother when it does not cut it. I have heard it played here (Direct DSD music files played from a computer) it was OK, certainly had potential, but what does that statement really mean. I can sing and some may think i have potential.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 05:11:19 PM by stevenvalve »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 05:50:33 PM »
Just out of interest. How many of you guys actually listen to DSD music files played from a computer?
Yes, i do.   Macmini, audirvana, into dsd dac(loki).    Not sure what the point of your question is?

The loki is pretty average.   My Korg is better.    Have listened to a Mytek on my system, and it was good, but still fair way short of 16bit  into Killer.

Would love to hear the Lampizator on my system, but there isnt many around.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 05:55:50 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline kajak12

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Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 08:10:43 PM »
Why bother when it does not cut it. I have heard it played here (Direct DSD music files played from a computer) it was OK, certainly had potential, but what does that statement really mean. I can sing and some may think i have potential.
You can sing??? some people like mp3's so anything is possible
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time