Poll

DDDAC-DSD

DDDAC-DSD
0 (0%)
DDDAC-DSD
2 (100%)

Total Members Voted: 2


Author Topic: DDDAC-DSD  (Read 10155 times)

Offline gamve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 718
  • Liked: 198
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2015, 09:46:12 AM »
Why bother when it does not cut it?
What based on one listening session with someone else's gear.
It might just have been that what you heard was not a fair representation of what can be done with this medium.
Maybe DSD reproduction is for someone who is super serious about music reproduction and really know's how to
tune it to his system, and his system as a whole. (Geez it may be just like a KillerDac).  ;D



Offline rhlauranna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Liked: 153
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2015, 10:27:31 AM »
Would love to hear the Lampizator on my system, but there isnt many around.

here is some quote that might be of interest:

#4183

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-419.html



Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2015, 09:18:09 PM »
Why bother when it does not cut it?
What based on one listening session with someone else's gear.
It might just have been that what you heard was not a fair representation of what can be done with this medium.
Maybe DSD reproduction is for someone who is super serious about music reproduction and really know's how to
tune it to his system, and his system as a whole. (Geez it may be just like a KillerDac).  ;D
Graham,  would you please clearly state what your position is ?? ?? ?? ??

Are you having a go at me? Please be clear.

 You are using a usb powered korg dsd dac.   Are you saying this Korg dac is the future in digital audio??

To be honest, I have no idea what your position is !!   

If it wasnt obvious,  I think dsd is the way forward,  but I dont think we have heard all of its potential (yet).

Please clarify your point.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 09:22:27 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline zenelectro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Liked: 145
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2015, 10:05:56 PM »
Why bother when it does not cut it?
What based on one listening session with someone else's gear.
It might just have been that what you heard was not a fair representation of what can be done with this medium.
Maybe DSD reproduction is for someone who is super serious about music reproduction and really know's how to
tune it to his system, and his system as a whole. (Geez it may be just like a KillerDac).  ;D

Graham - There is a lot of time / money / emotion here attached to 16 bit 0 x OS so I don't see any real motivation to explore
other potentially superior alternatives fully. 

I can say this, recording people I know who regularly transfer 1/2" or 1/4" tape masters to various digital formats usually get
the best results with 2 x DSD (5.6MHz), then 24/192 PCM.

To me it's pretty clear but as usual, in the convoluted world of hi end playback with various forms of euphonic tube based
DAC's, results get scewed. People blame this or that, PC versus transport etc etc but I don't give a sh!t about all this. There
are digital formats, digital storage / delivery systems (transports or PC) and there are convertors.

You have to address them all separately.

T

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2015, 10:25:38 PM »
I have motivation.

I have more DSD music on file, than i do 16bit.  And that is not a small statement.

I want to hear DSD in all its glory !!!
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2015, 08:43:40 AM »
So i had a chat with G, to check in and confirm what he meant.   There is a couple of important points he was making.

Why bother when it does not cut it?
What based on one listening session with someone else's gear.
i've got a big library of hi-res music (sacds, dvda's, etc).  What has always struck me about these formats, is you can achieve good results with economical gear.  And that continues to be the case.

My own opinions are based on my personal experience, using my own gear (both for playback and recording).   I reckon it does cut it (dsd), I think the potential is there to take it further down the road, than has what been achieved with 16bit. For sure.   Of the units i have tried, I dont believe i could take a dsd solution as far as what the kdac is doing.   Half the issue is,  its not just the dac,  its how we feed it.

Quote
It might just have been that what you heard was not a fair representation of what can be done with this medium.
If you are talking about a situation where someone takes their hires dac to SV's, and they do a comparison with SV's Kdac on SV's system.  This does happen a fair bit.  People walk away pretty deflated.  Its the norm actually, park the thought, will come back to this.
Quote
Maybe DSD reproduction is for someone who is super serious about music reproduction and really know's how to
tune it to his system, and his system as a whole. (Geez it may be just like a KillerDac).  ;D
Well I would say that any regular poster on this forum is super serious about music, and we all spend time tuning our system as a whole.  This part of your post can easily be construed the wrong way by any reader on this forum.     In the context of the scenario above (comparo at SVs) , few could claim to know more about tuning a system as a whole than SV,,,,,  but in a quick 1 night demo session the requisite tuning has not taken place for the DSD source.   So your point is,  why draw conclusions about the format, based on these 1 night demo sessions.     Fair call.

In fact, shoot outs can be complete folly.   Take *anything* over to SV's,  interconnects, power cable, dac, yada yada, it doesnt matter what it is,,,, be prepared to walk away questioning the component under comparison.   That is because SV's system has been so highly tuned around all his current components, they all work intricately together to produce the result,   swap something in and 99% of the time it will be a step backwards for the system. The knifes edge balancing act he has achieved has been disturbed by introducing the change on his system.    So if introducing a major change like completely different source device/format,  a system re-tune should happen before conclusions could be formed. Agreed.

Coming back to feeding the source problem (the transport).  This is the thing that prevents me from investing significant money on a Lampizator dsd dac,  or any hires solution for that matter,  the transport part of the equation hasnt been solved. Or i havent found it.     We know that half the Kdac equation is a modified CDM1 transport,with tweaked clock, and i2s connections into the dac.  The difference this makes is huge.    We need to really nail a hires computer transport solution, IMO.   I dont have the time to explore this directly anymore (have wasted thousands of hours on computer audio over the years).   But i continue to watch with interest developments in this space. 


« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 08:46:55 AM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline zenelectro

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Liked: 145
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2015, 01:56:02 PM »
Oz, I have a lot to say about all this, as you probably figured (LOL) :) but no time ATM.  Appropriate response coming when time permits.

cheers

T


Offline rhlauranna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Liked: 153
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2015, 02:16:58 AM »
...finally Doede has revealed some infos on the DIY-site regarding his new DDDAC-DSD beta...



for more you might want to have a look here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-438.html

#4376 and #4377


« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 02:35:12 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline rhlauranna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Liked: 153
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2015, 09:18:29 PM »
Aaahhh, yesterday was a very enjoyable day and finally one of „those“ days in HiFi that I am always longing for …

CLIMBING ON MOUNTAIN TOP …

When reading this please pardon my deficiencies regarding technical “understanding” and abilities in precise explanations… and please keep in mind that even I tend to “compare” “things” which simply are not comparable – or at least are not comparable at this phase…



...both Doede and me were urgently waiting for this day to come and to test out exactly that what we long time wanted to:

his newly finished DDDAC-DSD “protytype B” with a “noise reduction” switchable in different steps...





in “comparison” to my totally untweaked DDDAC1794 four deck with Bernd’s power supply (we could have tested other DDDAC 1794





(the new DDDAC1794S blue deck with shunts...)

for example Doede’s own 8 deck with Sowters… and 1543 constellations (my 120)



but as it came out at the moment we felt no desire to do this…)








(Doede installing and configuring the new DDDAC-DSD...)













To make it short. For me:

1.   this is the fulfilling of music-reproduction of a given recording (although the ultimate surroundings have yet to be build and complementarily integrated)…



(the whole new DDDAC-DSD with WaveIO, Doede's own power supply delivering 5 Volt for the WaveIO and two laboratory power supplies for 9 Volt and 15 Volt..)


2.   and yes, the newly different steps in “noise reduction” have an influence on the sound… but you will need a finely tuned high end system to be able to recognize it at all… you will notice the more noise the more efficient your system is, otherwise when normal music is playing you will hardly even notice… playing pure ISO reminded me a little of listening to vinyl’s surface noise way back then…



But be aware, the new DDDAC-DSD is not to be meant in the sense that it “replaces” the DDDAC 1794 (or any other DAC for that matter), that would not work, the DDDAC-DSD is a construction completely on its own and does not play PCM…

…so it is not possible to simply “exchange” this one DAC with the DDDAC1794 (or any other) to be able to play “all” digital sources, but for our personal listening pleasures regarding the ISO-formatted-content generated from SACDs that we have in use, this is definitely the icing on the cake…

1.   …to make no mistake, let me repeat: one cannot install a DDDDAC-DSD and simply get rid of the DDDAC1794 (or others), no, those HiFi-aficionados who want to listen to ISO in greatest purity without any “pollution” will need this DAC in addition to the already existing one(s) playing all the PCM-stuff. Point one.

2.   Point two is that all the different already existing and implemented sorts of power supplies for the DDDAC1794 for 5 Volt and 12 Volt neither can be used for the new DDDDAC-DSD. It is because the latter works with 8 Volt and 15 Volt. Just here for testing purposes Doede managed to generate these degrees of voltages by combining adjustable laboratory power supplies (so nothing special, just to satisfy the need at the moment… but he told that in the near future he will care for creating special power supplies with these voltages for his DDDAC-DSD)…

3.   Point three was very special (to me): what most of you already know and the one or other has already in use for quite some time with his DDDAC1794 Doede for this purpose brought with him stackable shunt-regulators which he pulled over within a second on both of the decks for the left and the right channel… as I did not have listened to shunt-regulators this way, I can tell now, these are a “must”, they have a very strong positive and desired effect on the reproduced sound reminding me heavily of all the positive effects of controlled power supplies... (and if I theoretically imagine in a future step all those shunts with controlled power supplies – my oh my…)… by the way, there is good news for all the DIYers out there: there are new boards in the making with already integrated shunt-regulators done by Guido Tent… there will be no changes on the boards, just the fulfillment of the integration of the shunts with no longer need for any individual tweaking…



4.   When listening to Patricia Barber’s Light My Fire (MFSL, ISO) with the shunts on Doede emphasized: “Now she is here”, and later on his wife was struck in awe saying: “It is like sitting in the first row of a concert!”…

…although at that time an uncomparable “comparison” the newly DDDAC-DSD – because of still being prototype (the DDDAC-DSD, now is in the same phase of development as was the DDDAC1794 some two and a half years ago) – did not sound “better” as the given other constellations that we actually have in use, just different…

…and the difference became immediately and obviously clear in that what “Supersurfer” from the DIY-er site fully justified already pointed out: “…I have not listened extensively to the DSD proto to make a thorough analysis but in my recollection there is a […] sound signature: open, dynamic, the music flows without any restrictions. This is the new benchmark in streaming audio...“

…just let me add, contrarily to other opinions - to me at the moment – the new proto DDDAC-DSD still does not “match” the sound of my DDDAC-1794 four deck (it was the same with the DDDAC1794 which did not match the DDDAC1543 within the same phase of development)…

…but I dare to interpolate and theoretically integrate that what is to come (based on my ears and the last six years of experience with all the other DDDAC-types and power supplies in all their different phases of development)…

… in combination with the right supporting complementary “things” and power supplies – the new DDDAC-DSD rather soon will not only become even better on its own, but reach “perfection”… perfection in the sense of reproducing ISO-files…

…this is another really spectacular effort and for me one more proof, Doede is a genius…

Bravo !!!



« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 12:50:30 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline ozmillsy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2164
  • Liked: 245
Re: DDDAC-DSD
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2015, 12:58:50 PM »
Hi Reinhard, thanks for the update.

When using a PC as the source tranport (as is needed to play iso's),  it is possible to use software to convert PCM to DSD.

The reverse of what you do today with DSD to PCM is possible.   So it is true, that you can deploy a DSD only dac, and still play your PCM files (by using that software).

Like any software based solution, the SQ is driven by the software code.   But it is possible, and worth trying.

Would save the significant costs associated with building 2 x dacs.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.