Author Topic: zenelectro killer clock  (Read 28316 times)

Offline Erik van Voorst

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2013, 05:12:25 AM »
Okay I will buy one...try it out and let you know how the Dexa performs....oh how I love to be the pioneer  ;D

Offline springcreek

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2013, 07:23:57 AM »
Hi guys

Any updates.....is it for sale as a product etc...

Does anybody knows about the Dexa Neutron Clock...or where to post questions....I wonder where to place it...together with the Zen and Trichord  :D


They should be out very soon i know zenelectro was very busy with medical work lately so i expect them in this month
Dexa Neutron Clock never heard of it

Yay!!!  8)

Offline Erik van Voorst

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2013, 04:29:20 AM »
Ordered today the Dexa with its psu

I will test it against the Tent with its psu and the Trichord 4 with the NC psu.... ;)

It is rather disapointing when you google for clock shootouts....not many around... :(

What you Do get is furiuos discussions about how people assume how clocks will sound....behhhhhhh :P

Offline zenelectro

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2013, 10:25:07 AM »
Hi Erik

What frequency does your transport require?

Are you using I2S OP and how is it implemented?

WRT zenclocks, yes apologies to all I have had a spate of repair work and other stuff (medical).

I'm currently re evaluating my business, the plan is to basically phase repairs out over the next year.
Too much time / not enough money. Although I have a very good rep WRT quality - It's not something I enjoy and
it can be really stressful.   


WRT Dexa - OK maybe I need to put my prices up.
The biggest factor in clock is the crystal itself, then power supply, circuit etc etc.

My clocks use a large ovenised oscillator with a different cut, custom made crystal (SC) that are very expensive.
All of these aftermarket clocks are using standard AT cut crystals which are much cheaper.
They only exception I know is the MSB Galaxy ($10k).

WRT reviews of clocks, I did a lot of research before building the zenclock and found opinions and results
are all over the place.

You can basically divide it as such:  clean / clinical versus warm musical and everything in between.
The Tent seems to be on the clean side, stuff like Kwak clock is the other extreme.
To make matters more complicated power supply has a big effect on all this.
There is also vibrational induced jitter.

When I did first zenclock I thought I was going to have to design a 'jitter adding' circuit to add some
random level of low level jitter to make the clock sound musical. As it turns out just tweaking the power supply
was enough.

Damn finicky stuff.

cheers

Z

Offline Erik van Voorst

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2013, 04:56:14 AM »
Hi Zen,

Thanks for the quick summary....I fully agree

16.9 for my Mini PiTbull

The JVC chip has no I2S

I will listen to the Dexa  Trichord Tent...my presumption will be soundwise in that order but that is because I already experienced myself that Trichord sounds better than Tent (to my ears in my set up etc)....could also be its psu but hey I always by them with their dedicated psu...so the experiment is always a two printboard job and as fair as possible.

Offline zenelectro

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #105 on: February 15, 2013, 01:20:26 PM »
Hi Zen,

Thanks for the quick summary....I fully agree

16.9 for my Mini PiTbull

The JVC chip has no I2S

I will listen to the Dexa  Trichord Tent...my presumption will be soundwise in that order but that is because I already experienced myself that Trichord sounds better than Tent (to my ears in my set up etc)....could also be its psu but hey I always by them with their dedicated psu...so the experiment is always a two printboard job and as fair as possible.


Erik,

zenclock only available in 11.2896 ATM.

Your choice of Sanyo / JVC parts for transport using spdif is interesting.

I think the best option is run I2S / 11.2896, use proper I2S implementation then start juggling the power
supply for clock / I2S driver to tune the sound.

All these different transports / chipsets are adding certain flavour of jitter that sounds good.
With proper I2S you can get rid of, to a large degree, these variables but then I am pretty sure
sound will head in clinical / sterile direction. So you then need to tune the power supplies
to get it back.

I'll be doing a few I2S conversions in a little while and we'll see where the cards fall.

cheers

Zen

Offline Erik van Voorst

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2013, 04:29:27 AM »
Choice is made based on sheer listening.....figures will probably be appaling....but then again one does not want to measure tubes.... :D

It is all based on the shigaclone on the DIY usa forum...only I give it my own arrogant twist.....as usual  :D

Offline zenelectro

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2013, 12:00:01 PM »
Choice is made based on sheer listening.....figures will probably be appaling....but then again one does not want to measure tubes.... :D

It is all based on the shigaclone on the DIY usa forum...only I give it my own arrogant twist.....as usual  :D

Hi Erik,

I have a lot of admiration for your work - it's really high quality. You are capable of some incredible stuff.

However I think with shigaclocne - you are aiming way below your potential - without even realizing it.
I am sure it sounds very good, but the fundamental approach is not there for me.

cheers

Zen



Offline Erik van Voorst

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2013, 07:03:24 PM »
Hi Zen,

I have made my PiTbull with it .....and a Mini PiTbull Mark I, so it is pretty much a safe journey.
You are misguided by the inferior parts which is quite a normal reaction (I was full disbelieve as well) but even een unmodded straight out of the boombox shows potential like you would not believe....you hear an analog quality you never heard before....the other qualities like PraT imaging the usual are not there (yet).

The chip-laser synergy (see Lab47) is here the miracleworker...so useless to start with a Philips Pro as drive....

Once I have finished with it, it even gets a whole new extra level and is turntable reference.
I know you are now about to call me a doctor....but the old saying " hearing is believing"  is so true in this case.

All the estabished names (Wadia Mark Levinson CEC etc) are..........gone...when thisfinished product fires up.
I admit you have to modify like crazy to achieve the latter but the point is....it can be done.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 07:07:03 PM by Erik van Voorst »

Offline rab

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2013, 10:21:32 PM »
When I did first zenclock I thought I was going to have to design a 'jitter adding' circuit to add some
random level of low level jitter to make the clock sound musical. As it turns out just tweaking the power supply
was enough.

Do i understand that your aim was to develop a low jitter clock (to ignore for a moment the complex spectral properties of jitter in general), but that the jitter of your clock as you initially developed it was too low, so you had to modify the power supply to add some jitter back...?

Offline zenelectro

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #110 on: February 17, 2013, 02:41:43 PM »
When I did first zenclock I thought I was going to have to design a 'jitter adding' circuit to add some
random level of low level jitter to make the clock sound musical. As it turns out just tweaking the power supply
was enough.

Do i understand that your aim was to develop a low jitter clock (to ignore for a moment the complex spectral properties of jitter in general), but that the jitter of your clock as you initially developed it was too low, so you had to modify the power supply to add some jitter back...?

Not quite.

I developed a second generation zenclock which had substantially lower jitter by measurement.
Subjectively it wasn't quite right. It was better in every 'technical' sense but less musical.

After liaising with the oscillator manufacturers, I found they had used a low noise, low dropout IC regulator inside the can.
Lots of people use these for clock supplies. I replaced this with a discrete, low noise reg of my own design and the sound was right.

Theoretically, my discrete reg actually has lower noise than the IC one they used. But I don't have measuring equipment
good enough to measure the jitter after reg change. Also the layout was different - it could have gone slightly either
way (more or less jitter). 

Regardless, it retained all the previous positive attributes and also sounded musically right.

So in fact, I am not driven totally by measurements, the final arbiter is listening.

I just used measurements to get the foundations right and did final tweaking based on how it sounded.


Z

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2013, 05:28:45 PM »
Are you putting Auricaps in them Zen?

I understand Mario got good results with Duelands.    I dont have Duelands lying around, but I do have some Jensons.     What cap values can I use with your clock?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline zenelectro

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #112 on: February 17, 2013, 07:40:32 PM »
Are you putting Auricaps in them Zen?

I understand Mario got good results with Duelands.    I dont have Duelands lying around, but I do have some Jensons.     What cap values can I use with your clock?

I'm using solen for the main ref voltage filter cap. They actually only need a pretty small value of cap.
You will also get very good results with pretty standard caps.

Z


Offline ozmillsy

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2013, 08:52:17 PM »
Cool.     Well I have a couple of 1uf paper in oil type jensens lying around, that i picked up off Crazikid.

Might be interesting to see how it compares to the solen?
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline kajak12

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2013, 09:19:04 PM »
Are you putting Auricaps in them Zen?

I understand Mario got good results with Duelands.    I dont have Duelands lying around, but I do have some Jensons.     What cap values can I use with your clock?
I use 2uf duelunds
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline kajak12

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2013, 09:20:34 PM »
Cool.     Well I have a couple of 1uf paper in oil type jensens lying around, that i picked up off Crazikid.

Might be interesting to see how it compares to the solen?
very different will depend on your system i had used both ages ago........
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline zenelectro

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2013, 11:46:49 PM »
Hi Zen,

I have made my PiTbull with it .....and a Mini PiTbull Mark I, so it is pretty much a safe journey.
You are misguided by the inferior parts which is quite a normal reaction (I was full disbelieve as well) but even een unmodded straight out of the boombox shows potential like you would not believe....you hear an analog quality you never heard before....the other qualities like PraT imaging the usual are not there (yet).

The chip-laser synergy (see Lab47) is here the miracleworker...so useless to start with a Philips Pro as drive....

Once I have finished with it, it even gets a whole new extra level and is turntable reference.
I know you are now about to call me a doctor....but the old saying " hearing is believing"  is so true in this case.



I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Erik.   ;D  I'm just not convinced that the Shigaclone is the way to go.   

I was reading today - one Shigaclone owner installed a FIFO (memory buffer to remove jitter) together with low jitter Crystek clock
and experienced a massive improvement in sound.

Quote

All the estabished names (Wadia Mark Levinson CEC etc) are..........gone...when thisfinished product fires up.
I admit you have to modify like crazy to achieve the latter but the point is....it can be done.

I think you are right, it takes a lot of modifying work. But you need to start with the best foundation, which means
I2S and a decent clocking scheme. The shiga has niether.

But I can see you have put a lot of work into this, achieved a nice result so in this case, we all find our own path.

Z



Offline Erik van Voorst

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #117 on: February 18, 2013, 08:36:56 AM »
I agree to disagree... ;)

But believe me if I would think there is a better combo available to give it a headstart I would most certainly buy it...incl a complete transport to modify... :D

i have a Translight AT&T as a digital out (superregulated and dedicated psu) and a heavy modified Genesis Digital Lens on the Pitbull.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #118 on: February 18, 2013, 07:05:42 PM »
I imagine the jensens are darker, richer and smoother,    but hang on,   it's just 1's and 0's we're talking about isnt it?
   :P  8)
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline zenelectro

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Re: zenelectro killer clock
« Reply #119 on: February 18, 2013, 10:36:28 PM »
I imagine the jensens are darker, richer and smoother,    but hang on,   it's just 1's and 0's we're talking about isnt it?
   :P  8)


What colour do you want your 1's and 0's :) :)