Author Topic: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages  (Read 42174 times)

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
  • Liked: 78
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: Bold statements
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 02:20:20 PM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
A very bold statement. I could not agree less!
I guess it come down to your reference point in audio since i know nothing about your setup regarding amp and speakers or a transport i have no idea of what kind of reference you have.Please inform me about your current setup including power cords,interconnects,speakers,transport,pre amplifier,power amplifier.That will put some light on where your coming from.
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline ozcal

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
  • Liked: 2
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2011, 03:02:38 PM »
Mario , even knowing a persons system doen't necessarily tell you what their reference point(s) is /are.
I guess live unamplified music spread over loads of different veunues is one of the better reference points and then you have to take into consideration how much money and time some one can through at their system.
Another thing that has impact is the amount of folks expereince in listening to systems , the more experience the better.
Lastly , it seems we have very little data on how variations of peoples hearing anatomy impacts on their perception of Sound, couple that folks perceptions based on completely different expereinces as they have 'grown-up' in the hi-fi world and it is no surprise that there are such a wide variety of views on what constitutes good sound.
Listening with my ears :)

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
  • Liked: 78
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2011, 03:11:51 PM »
Mario , even knowing a persons system doen't necessarily tell you what their reference point(s) is /are.
To a degree ozcal yes but when they have a ss amp dont tell me they get timbre or depth in sound stage like a great valve amp.



still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline ozcal

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
  • Liked: 2
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2011, 04:20:55 PM »
Mario , even knowing a persons system doen't necessarily tell you what their reference point(s) is /are.
To a degree ozcal yes but when they have a ss amp dont tell me they get timbre or depth in sound stage like a great valve amp.




Probably/possibly not Mario  but then that person may have different priorities or even ideas about what they think constitues realistic reproduction.
As an example , look at the amount of Naim gear sold world wide.I have never heard a Naim system that I enjoyed listening to music through but you have got to figure that not all the folk that buy the gear are just sheep , taken in by advertising , some folk will consider that it is the closest thing to live music they have heard and they may be very experienced listeners.
I think the most important things I have learned over the last 30 yrs is to not be too dogmatic about any ideaologies and the importance of system synergy over and above the merits of any individual item.
Listening with my ears :)

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
  • Liked: 78
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2011, 04:41:31 PM »
Mario , even knowing a persons system doen't necessarily tell you what their reference point(s) is /are.
To a degree ozcal yes but when they have a ss amp dont tell me they get timbre or depth in sound stage like a great valve amp.
Probably/possibly not Mario  but then that person may have different priorities or even ideas about what they think constitues realistic reproduction.

A persons system is as good as their hearing or ability to build one.
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline ozcal

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
  • Liked: 2
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 05:15:43 PM »
Mario , even knowing a persons system doen't necessarily tell you what their reference point(s) is /are.
To a degree ozcal yes but when they have a ss amp dont tell me they get timbre or depth in sound stage like a great valve amp.
Probably/possibly not Mario  but then that person may have different priorities or even ideas about what they think constitues realistic reproduction.

A persons system is as good as their hearing or ability to build one.
Yep , but you have to factor in availability of cash. Look at me , I reckon I have good hearing but there is now way I will ever be able to afford a KD , so I have to content myself with trying to extract max performance from the Satch on a pretty small budget , same with the Supratek
There is no way I can run the Gales with a tube power amp  of resonable cost and get the performance I know they are capable of considering my priorities for musical enjoyment.
I could sell the pre ,power and Gales and buy a Ming da and Ml1's but the Ml1's just don't do it for me. I spent many years in the UK after I sold my first pair of Gales playing around with all manner of 'Super' mini monitors and came to the conclusion that they are not for me. I can appreciate what they do but speakers like the Gales just take things to a whole new level for me, that to my ears is closer to the 'original sound'
So! , bottom line , if I had a resonable budget and gained more experience in building equipment who knows what I could achieve but at the moment I have to content myself with maximising the performance of what I have and to that end your advice and that from other members of this forum has been invaluable. That being said I don't take anything for granted and I do like to try everything out for myself . with my ears ,in my system.
Cheers,
G
Listening with my ears :)

Offline mcb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 235
  • Liked: 6
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 07:14:07 PM »
It has been interesting to follow this thread.  At the end of the day, if we can identify a few changes that help lift the Satch a bit further then we will have achieved a good outcome.

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Ignorant Dogma
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2011, 10:32:09 PM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
 I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing.  
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.
I was originally addressing your absolute statement that a particular circuit, that is used by many respected and technically accomplished comapanies, is not good.  I really am not interested in purchasing Audio Note equipment now or in the future, but I would be much more inclined to do so over some much beloved dac here that is promoted with little information about its design and measured performance.  But I do see from your postings that you think that your system is so great, computer audio is crap, opamps are crap, solid state amplification cannot match tubed and all other sorts of specious statements.  If you think that your system is the greatest, that is fine, but you do not need to justify it by making a lot of absurd and general statements about other equipment people have.  The Satch is a good dac, and improvements in the power supply will yield good improvement.  Check out Lampizator and some other postings on the net.

I do have two systems, one horn based and one with B&W 803ds.  I guess that you think that power cords and interconnects are critical, but I am not in that camp.  I also believe that each component should be as neutral as possible and if it is not, then the design and implementation is probably not very good.  Much of my gear is DIY, but some is commercial.  I stumbled into the horn system when a friend commissioned a horn system and could not pay for it.  It was acclaimed by the masses at the Manila Audio Show as the best in show, but after spending time with it, it was clear it was far from that.  It had a pair of JBL 150-4 woofers in each channel, a Vitavox S5 and Vitavox horn and a JBL 2405 tweeter.  The bass cabinets were open back with a very slight horn flare and sounded sh-t, which of course should be expected with those drivers, as they were not really being loaded.  One Vitavox had a magnet gap that was packed with rust and debris and had extremely little excusrsion.  I was fortunate to be able to save the unobtainable diaphragms.  The 2405s were utter junk.  I now have horn loaded bass cabinets with the JBLs, the Vitavox horns now cleaned and running properly and a Fostex Alnico super tweeter, a Pioneer D23 crossover and 3 amps driving this system, including a 300B for the mids with permalloy output transofrmers.  It sounds good but will need to go through a lot of changes to reach any great standard.  So, in spite of the acclaims by the club morons in Manila, it was really trash with potential.  It is now just much better trash.  If I were to start from scratch, I would go in the direction of the cat who was daring enough to try to participate here briefly.  That guy knows more about horn systems and music than most all the people on some forums do combined.  I suspect that  a proper horn system is far more revealing than box speakers such as mini monitors with off the shelf Peerless drivers, but I guess that inexperienced opinion could differ.

The monkey coffin system is driven by some rebuilt and upgraded ASL Huricanes with V-Caps and Mundorfs.  It sounds quite ok, although some revered guru here has expressed the general opinion that these caps are no good.  Give me a break.  It seems that arrogance reigns supreme on many audio forums.  I also use Solen Teflon with good effect, but some may proclaim them to be crap too.

As to the other parts of the system, I use an Aikido circuit preamp, a 26 DHT preamp with permalloy output transformers and tube regulated power supply, an Aikido phono stage, a D3A phono stge with a 5687 gyrator output and tube regulated power supply and various turntables including Garrard 301, 401, Thorens TD124, Russco Mark 5 and Denon DP6000, with diffferent arms, including air bearing, 12 inch, 9 inch and so on.  Cartridges range from old MM and some Denon MC models.  Lots of SUTs also from TX103, to Partridge, Denon to Lundahl.  Cables and cords, Kimber, DIY, Belden, Blue Jeans and so on.  No big deal there.

For digital, have used different transports, but computer audio is the only way to go, to me.  Mechanical cd players are a thing of the past, in my opinion, and perhaps contrary to the beliefs of old diehards.  When you start to talk about bit perfect, Reed Solomon correction and jitter, a well done computer system is the better alternative, technically, sound wise and convenience wise.  I use a Pace-Car II reclocker with a Squezebox, that outputs i2s to a double crown TDA1541A in an Aya Dac.  It has transistor output stage with no negative feedback.  No tubes needed or welcome.  I have had a number of dacs, with different dac chips, including 1704, 1865, TDA1543 and TDA1541A, but thus far, the Audial dac has proven the most satisfactory.  The next step will be a more modern chip, but so far, I like what I am hearing.  I still think that analogue offers something different and more interesting to me, but most listening I do is digital.

I would not presume to be so arrogant to say that these systems are high end, reference standard or optimal, but I can confidently say I am learning all the time and that with incremental changes, it is improving to the level of acceptable junk.  I am not a fan of any particular brand or acclaimed guru, but rather experiment, read and listen to get things to a better level.  Even the previously aforementioned horn expert freely admits the limitations of his own system, which has evelved over many years and been reworked with fanatical obsession.  The worst attitude is arrogance coupled with ignorance.  There is far too much of that going on these days.


Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
  • Liked: 78
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2011, 12:33:36 AM »
Thanks for your detailed response i have have an idea where your coming from,as for your statement But I do see from your postings that you think that your system is so great It makes music with of the shelf peerless drivers using one of the greatest crossovers ever built,all the caps and resistors in the cross overs chosen by me using a educated guess.
but I would be much more inclined to do so over some much beloved dac here that is promoted with little information about its design and measured performance. No measurements where ever taken of the killer dac as i and most others care about sound more then measurements.
computer audio is crap, opamps are crap, solid state amplification cannot match tubed and all other sorts of specious statements Computer audio has a bit to go before it does what my cd spinner is capable of unless you know something that i dont,we do have a squeeze box in perth modded to lampizator specs still  behind my cd94 or my modded qls550 wave player.As for opamps i have yet to hear a good set i guess i only comment from my personal experience.Regarding solid state amps could you recommend any that do what a great valve amp does i would love to try and hold a gtg in perth so others can do an unbiased evaluation against my valve amp.If i could find a solid state amp that has the magic of my valve amp i would buy it straight away. I guess that you think that power cords and interconnects are critical, but I am not in that camp.Even with peerless drivers fitted to a pair of bookshelves can be revealing enough to show changes in power cords,caps,interconnects,resistors,internal wiring of amp,dac and b+ voltage on my dac just 10v higher makes audible difference.
The Satch is a good dac, and improvements in the power supply will yield good improvement.  Check out Lampizator and some other postings on the net.Good for you average for me,I have been on the lampizator site a few times over the years.
ps:enjoy your journey and you have some well regarded drivers

still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline vitavoxdude

  • Beauty is in the ear of the beholder
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1175
  • Liked: 71
  • Caring and sharing
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2011, 01:38:34 AM »
Hi Gthicm ;D
Welcome to this fourum promoting the KDAC.
It's healthy to have different views on what works best and it would seem you are coming at things from a similar stance to some members here.  With emotions running high you are always going to get 'typical responces' from those dedicated types as they hang onto what they know and defend it strongly when they feel questioned.

What was the issue with the 2405's?
Why did you get duped into buying a speaker system with so many issues? The ingreidents all look good to me, they must have been very well priced  ;).

Nice to see you are still using the fabled TDA chip, at least that's something in common to many here.  You have some nice analouge pieces too. 

Roomy the Cat started directly attacking members here so enevitably was flamed, he is another typical audio nut who is not slow coming forward with his views which wrankled some what. 

Caps and things do make a difference as you'll know, I do not subscribe to the camp that there is an absoloute best beleiving it depends on the overall system it's being used in, its all too easy to get carried away price wise where expense is not always fully justified the law of diminishing returns applying heavily here.

Antway I hope that there is some positive contributions to this site which you enjoy from the recommended recordings section etc and don't sweat the small things.
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline stevenvalve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
  • Liked: 358
Re: Ignorant Dogma
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 03:03:39 AM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
 I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing.  
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.
I was originally addressing your absolute statement that a particular circuit, that is used by many respected and technically accomplished comapanies, is not good.  I really am not interested in purchasing Audio Note equipment now or in the future, but I would be much more inclined to do so over some much beloved dac here that is promoted with little information about its design and measured performance.  But I do see from your postings that you think that your system is so great, computer audio is crap, opamps are crap, solid state amplification cannot match tubed and all other sorts of specious statements.  If you think that your system is the greatest, that is fine, but you do not need to justify it by making a lot of absurd and general statements about other equipment people have.  The Satch is a good dac, and improvements in the power supply will yield good improvement.  Check out Lampizator and some other postings on the net.

I do have two systems, one horn based and one with B&W 803ds.  I guess that you think that power cords and interconnects are critical, but I am not in that camp.  I also believe that each component should be as neutral as possible and if it is not, then the design and implementation is probably not very good.  Much of my gear is DIY, but some is commercial.  I stumbled into the horn system when a friend commissioned a horn system and could not pay for it.  It was acclaimed by the masses at the Manila Audio Show as the best in show, but after spending time with it, it was clear it was far from that.  It had a pair of JBL 150-4 woofers in each channel, a Vitavox S5 and Vitavox horn and a JBL 2405 tweeter.  The bass cabinets were open back with a very slight horn flare and sounded sh-t, which of course should be expected with those drivers, as they were not really being loaded.  One Vitavox had a magnet gap that was packed with rust and debris and had extremely little excusrsion.  I was fortunate to be able to save the unobtainable diaphragms.  The 2405s were utter junk.  I now have horn loaded bass cabinets with the JBLs, the Vitavox horns now cleaned and running properly and a Fostex Alnico super tweeter, a Pioneer D23 crossover and 3 amps driving this system, including a 300B for the mids with permalloy output transofrmers.  It sounds good but will need to go through a lot of changes to reach any great standard.  So, in spite of the acclaims by the club morons in Manila, it was really trash with potential.  It is now just much better trash.  If I were to start from scratch, I would go in the direction of the cat who was daring enough to try to participate here briefly.  That guy knows more about horn systems and music than most all the people on some forums do combined.  I suspect that  a proper horn system is far more revealing than box speakers such as mini monitors with off the shelf Peerless drivers, but I guess that inexperienced opinion could differ.

The monkey coffin system is driven by some rebuilt and upgraded ASL Huricanes with V-Caps and Mundorfs.  It sounds quite ok, although some revered guru here has expressed the general opinion that these caps are no good.  Give me a break.  It seems that arrogance reigns supreme on many audio forums.  I also use Solen Teflon with good effect, but some may proclaim them to be crap too.

As to the other parts of the system, I use an Aikido circuit preamp, a 26 DHT preamp with permalloy output transformers and tube regulated power supply, an Aikido phono stage, a D3A phono stge with a 5687 gyrator output and tube regulated power supply and various turntables including Garrard 301, 401, Thorens TD124, Russco Mark 5 and Denon DP6000, with diffferent arms, including air bearing, 12 inch, 9 inch and so on.  Cartridges range from old MM and some Denon MC models.  Lots of SUTs also from TX103, to Partridge, Denon to Lundahl.  Cables and cords, Kimber, DIY, Belden, Blue Jeans and so on.  No big deal there.

For digital, have used different transports, but computer audio is the only way to go, to me.  Mechanical cd players are a thing of the past, in my opinion, and perhaps contrary to the beliefs of old diehards.  When you start to talk about bit perfect, Reed Solomon correction and jitter, a well done computer system is the better alternative, technically, sound wise and convenience wise.  I use a Pace-Car II reclocker with a Squezebox, that outputs i2s to a double crown TDA1541A in an Aya Dac.  It has transistor output stage with no negative feedback.  No tubes needed or welcome.  I have had a number of dacs, with different dac chips, including 1704, 1865, TDA1543 and TDA1541A, but thus far, the Audial dac has proven the most satisfactory.  The next step will be a more modern chip, but so far, I like what I am hearing.  I still think that analogue offers something different and more interesting to me, but most listening I do is digital.

I would not presume to be so arrogant to say that these systems are high end, reference standard or optimal, but I can confidently say I am learning all the time and that with incremental changes, it is improving to the level of acceptable junk.  I am not a fan of any particular brand or acclaimed guru, but rather experiment, read and listen to get things to a better level.  Even the previously aforementioned horn expert freely admits the limitations of his own system, which has evelved over many years and been reworked with fanatical obsession.  The worst attitude is arrogance coupled with ignorance.  There is far too much of that going on these days.


 Welcome to the forum Gthicm. I like a man who speaks his mind. I guess i am the guru you are referring too. Well V-Caps and Mundorfs, Are they good enough to make it into great great sounding components. (forgetting system synergy for a minute). No they are not, at best, they are ordinary, each with a flavor that can suit some systems, but to be fair after listening to the Deulund VSF copper caps they are all ordinary. If there is a better cap out there let me know. As for Romy the Cat, I have heard from people in the know, his system is very good, but its a funny thing that i know a lot of audiophiles who know an incredible amount about hifi stuff, but for some reason there sound is poor. PS I also use some types of Solen caps, very good in the right place, very bad in the wrong place.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 03:06:41 AM by stevenvalve »

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
  • Liked: 78
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: Ignorant Dogma
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2011, 11:24:00 AM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
 I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing.  
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.


The monkey coffin system is driven by some rebuilt and upgraded ASL Huricanes with V-Caps and Mundorfs.  It sounds quite ok, although some revered guru here has expressed the general opinion that these caps are no good.  Give me a break.  It seems that arrogance reigns supreme on many audio forums.  I also use Solen Teflon with good effect, but some may proclaim them to be crap too.
I had a pair of ml1's plus R which use the mundorf caps in the xover,my current speakers ml1 reference also known as ultra's use duelunds it was very easy to compare the same speakers side by side,once you hear the difference you would understand why mundorfs are not in the league of duelunds.
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline kajak12

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2468
  • Liked: 78
    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: Ignorant Dogma
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2011, 11:32:11 AM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
 I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing.  
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.
I also believe that each component should be as neutral as possible and if it is not, then the design and implementation is probably not very good. 
From what i have learned over the years in audio nothing is totally neutral if you get the same circuit of a dac or amp and they both have different components i am sure they will sound different.So the theory of design and implementation depends and what parts are used
So my question what parts resistors,caps,internal wiring,rca sockets,binding posts,volume attenuators must be used to have neutral component?
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Open Mindedness
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2011, 01:28:21 PM »
Hi Gthicm ;D
Welcome to this fourum promoting the KDAC.
It's healthy to have different views on what works best and it would seem you are coming at things from a similar stance to some members here.  With emotions running high you are always going to get 'typical responces' from those dedicated types as they hang onto what they know and defend it strongly when they feel questioned.

What was the issue with the 2405's?
Why did you get duped into buying a speaker system with so many issues? The ingreidents all look good to me, they must have been very well priced  ;).

Nice to see you are still using the fabled TDA chip, at least that's something in common to many here.  You have some nice analouge pieces too. 

Roomy the Cat started directly attacking members here so enevitably was flamed, he is another typical audio nut who is not slow coming forward with his views which wrankled some what. 

Caps and things do make a difference as you'll know, I do not subscribe to the camp that there is an absoloute best beleiving it depends on the overall system it's being used in, its all too easy to get carried away price wise where expense is not always fully justified the law of diminishing returns applying heavily here.

Antway I hope that there is some positive contributions to this site which you enjoy from the recommended recordings section etc and don't sweat the small things.
V
Thanks for the comments.  People are almost religious about audio stuff, but I try to keep an open mind and learn as much as possible.  That comes from time, experience and discussion.  I tend to value the opinions born from technical ability and experience.  I fully recognize that I know little to nothing, and can only try my best to noodle around with different stuff and see if I can get improvement to my liking.  I hope to learn a lot more as time goes on.

I have no great affinity for the brand name stuff.  I do not trust the writings of audio reviewers, as there is many times bias and conflict of interest.  Likewise, people tend to worship this or that, and in most cases, I think that their views are also overly biased.  It is ok to have passion for things, but not too much so as to cloud judgement.  For example, I really like the earlier air cooled Porsche 911s.  I would not say it is the best or highest quality sportscar, but for me I really like it and appreciate its strengths and weaknesses.  I do not care if anyone agrees or disagrees.  Consensus is not my goal.

I got the horn speakers at a good price, but more importantly, they introduced me to something totally new and interesting.  The moral of the story is that a lot of people thought they were the greatest, but in truth they were so far from it that it was nuts.  Just goes to warn me that popularist views are not always right.  Now they are better but stil very compromised.  The 2405s did not do it for me.  I thought they were grainy sounding.  I have not taken them apart, but they could be packed in with junk.  I will investigate later, but they are not Alnico, so too much effort does not seem justified.

Everything makes a difference is the thing.  It takes a long time to work everything through and make improvements.  It is part of the journey.

Offline vitavoxdude

  • Beauty is in the ear of the beholder
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1175
  • Liked: 71
  • Caring and sharing
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2011, 01:35:17 PM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
  I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing. 
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.
I also believe that each component should be as neutral as possible and if it is not, then the design and implementation is probably not very good. 
From what i have learned over the years in audio nothing is totally neutral if you get the same circuit of a dac or amp and they both have different components i am sure they will sound different.So the theory of design and implementation depends and what parts are used
So my question what parts resistors,caps,internal wiring,rca sockets,binding posts,volume attenuators must be used to have neutral component?
QUAD, or at least they would say, straight wire with gain.  You want neutral, you cant handle neutral.  :P Most people prefer home replay audio to be coloured and 'fleshed out more' than dead neutral (IMV_SNA) and this includes me for most but not all things.  :-\

Anyone who reckons Audio Note are misslead in their products is clearly without an audio education and works digging roads with a jack hammer all day and armchair critic by night.

There would be very few neutral systems amongst club members and all those with valves, please stand up, it ain't neutral and uncoloured in some way! Speakers - most of the spendor range inc LS35a's, Harbeth and Quad ESL's inc the new models made in China.  Amps, QUAD newish range, Orelle, CD players, gulp not to many here, no direct suggestions.  Tuners - quite a few but all big bucks.  Anyway back to the point you can throw top ( read expensive) components at a design and if its a poor design then you still end up with not as good as you'd thought it would be or like.  Some talented electronic design engineers can make ordinary electronic components sound fantastic in a well designed circuit without the Dueland "Tiffiny" price tags. Colour to choice with your favorite components and wires. All IMV-SNA.
;D
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Neutrality
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2011, 01:49:14 PM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
 I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing.  
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.
I also believe that each component should be as neutral as possible and if it is not, then the design and implementation is probably not very good.  
From what i have learned over the years in audio nothing is totally neutral if you get the same circuit of a dac or amp and they both have different components i am sure they will sound different.So the theory of design and implementation depends and what parts are used
So my question what parts resistors,caps,internal wiring,rca sockets,binding posts,volume attenuators must be used to have neutral component?
Nothing is entirely neutral, especially opinions!  To me and from what I hear, the least critical parts are hookup wire, binding posts and RCA plugs in equipment.  From there, ascending in order of importance would be resistors, volume controls and capacitors.  It is also important to qualify where they are in the equipment.  Of course power supplies of DHTs are in the signal path, and that is where differences can mostly be heard.  For example, I do not like cheap pots, like Alps, but prefer L-Pads.  To each his own.

I do believe that with tubes, operating points make a difference.  Tubes vary within brand and betwen brands for optimal operating point.  Hard to design and build something totally good for many different tubes, but certainly operating points should be mid way.  My point is that if you strive for something neutral in each component, this is a good starting point. There are of course other issues, like impedance matching within the system.  To me, Teflon caps, like the V-Caps, Solens and such are pretty neutral.  SUTs like the TX103 are also quite neutral.  

The apporach I have taken with digital, is to get the source as close to ideal as possible.  Computer audio does just that by minimizing jitter, error correction software and the like.  I reason, maybe incorrectly, that getting the cleanest signal to the dac chip in a proper dac, allows one to make adjustments to the dac and obtain best results.  Likewise with analogue, the SUT should be as much as a wire with gain as possible.  There are plenty of other variables to deal with, including tracking force, VTA and the like.  Best to minimize coloration in other parts of the system so everything can get dialed in and adjustments made from there.  There should not be to much to modify, but if there are all kinds of colorations in different components, it can be more difficult, like chasing ghosts.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 02:28:55 PM by gthicm »

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Boutique Parts
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2011, 02:02:31 PM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
 I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing.  
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.
I also believe that each component should be as neutral as possible and if it is not, then the design and implementation is probably not very good.  
From what i have learned over the years in audio nothing is totally neutral if you get the same circuit of a dac or amp and they both have different components i am sure they will sound different.So the theory of design and implementation depends and what parts are used
So my question what parts resistors,caps,internal wiring,rca sockets,binding posts,volume attenuators must be used to have neutral component?
QUAD, or at least they would say, straight wire with gain.  You want neutral, you cant handle neutral.  :P Most people prefer home replay audio to be coloured and 'fleshed out more' than dead neutral (IMV_SNA) and this includes me for most but not all things.  :-\

Anyone who reckons Audio Note are misslead in their products is clearly without an audio education and works digging roads with a jack hammer all day and armchair critic by night.

There would be very few neutral systems amongst club members and all those with valves, please stand up, it ain't neutral and uncoloured in some way! Speakers - most of the spendor range inc LS35a's, Harbeth and Quad ESL's inc the new models made in China.  Amps, QUAD newish range, Orelle, CD players, gulp not to many here, no direct suggestions.  Tuners - quite a few but all big bucks.  Anyway back to the point you can throw top ( read expensive) components at a design and if its a poor design then you still end up with not as good as you'd thought it would be or like.  Some talented electronic design engineers can make ordinary electronic components sound fantastic in a well designed circuit without the Dueland "Tiffiny" price tags. Colour to choice with your favorite components and wires. All IMV-SNA.
V  ;D
Well said and pretty much echoes my sentiments.  If the circuit is well designed and values correctly chosen, the item should not be too susceptible to great changes in sound when swapping out capacitors and such.  For TDA1541A, there are a lot of guys who really know their stuff, including but not limited to Pedja Rogic, Thorsten Loesch, Guido Tent and ecdesigns.  None of them use exotic vintage components and seem to get good results employing technical knowledge and good design principals.  I would cast my lot with these guys for good insight into optimizing the good old TDA1541A.  I do also believe that more contemporary chips bear experimentation with.  As is shown by past experience with TDAs, a lot can be done with good engineering and design.

Vitavoxdude, are you in South America?  I think I have communicated with you before.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 02:30:32 PM by gthicm »

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Re: Ignorant Dogma
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2011, 02:05:51 PM »
No matter what you do it will always be a average hifi dac unless you replace the valve output stage with a better one.
Ps:if you like it dont change it
 I guess that in your opinion Audio Note does not know what it is doing.  
Yes its a very bold statement i knew it would get some trousers flapping and hormones going!
regarding audio note i have only heard audio note dac 2.1
Audio note do know what they are doing they spend 2k to 3k on parts and sell a top of the line dac for 30k plus.They really do know how to make a good profit margin.
I was originally addressing your absolute statement that a particular circuit, that is used by many respected and technically accomplished comapanies, is not good.  I really am not interested in purchasing Audio Note equipment now or in the future, but I would be much more inclined to do so over some much beloved dac here that is promoted with little information about its design and measured performance.  But I do see from your postings that you think that your system is so great, computer audio is crap, opamps are crap, solid state amplification cannot match tubed and all other sorts of specious statements.  If you think that your system is the greatest, that is fine, but you do not need to justify it by making a lot of absurd and general statements about other equipment people have.  The Satch is a good dac, and improvements in the power supply will yield good improvement.  Check out Lampizator and some other postings on the net.

I do have two systems, one horn based and one with B&W 803ds.  I guess that you think that power cords and interconnects are critical, but I am not in that camp.  I also believe that each component should be as neutral as possible and if it is not, then the design and implementation is probably not very good.  Much of my gear is DIY, but some is commercial.  I stumbled into the horn system when a friend commissioned a horn system and could not pay for it.  It was acclaimed by the masses at the Manila Audio Show as the best in show, but after spending time with it, it was clear it was far from that.  It had a pair of JBL 150-4 woofers in each channel, a Vitavox S5 and Vitavox horn and a JBL 2405 tweeter.  The bass cabinets were open back with a very slight horn flare and sounded sh-t, which of course should be expected with those drivers, as they were not really being loaded.  One Vitavox had a magnet gap that was packed with rust and debris and had extremely little excusrsion.  I was fortunate to be able to save the unobtainable diaphragms.  The 2405s were utter junk.  I now have horn loaded bass cabinets with the JBLs, the Vitavox horns now cleaned and running properly and a Fostex Alnico super tweeter, a Pioneer D23 crossover and 3 amps driving this system, including a 300B for the mids with permalloy output transofrmers.  It sounds good but will need to go through a lot of changes to reach any great standard.  So, in spite of the acclaims by the club morons in Manila, it was really trash with potential.  It is now just much better trash.  If I were to start from scratch, I would go in the direction of the cat who was daring enough to try to participate here briefly.  That guy knows more about horn systems and music than most all the people on some forums do combined.  I suspect that  a proper horn system is far more revealing than box speakers such as mini monitors with off the shelf Peerless drivers, but I guess that inexperienced opinion could differ.

The monkey coffin system is driven by some rebuilt and upgraded ASL Huricanes with V-Caps and Mundorfs.  It sounds quite ok, although some revered guru here has expressed the general opinion that these caps are no good.  Give me a break.  It seems that arrogance reigns supreme on many audio forums.  I also use Solen Teflon with good effect, but some may proclaim them to be crap too.

As to the other parts of the system, I use an Aikido circuit preamp, a 26 DHT preamp with permalloy output transformers and tube regulated power supply, an Aikido phono stage, a D3A phono stge with a 5687 gyrator output and tube regulated power supply and various turntables including Garrard 301, 401, Thorens TD124, Russco Mark 5 and Denon DP6000, with diffferent arms, including air bearing, 12 inch, 9 inch and so on.  Cartridges range from old MM and some Denon MC models.  Lots of SUTs also from TX103, to Partridge, Denon to Lundahl.  Cables and cords, Kimber, DIY, Belden, Blue Jeans and so on.  No big deal there.

For digital, have used different transports, but computer audio is the only way to go, to me.  Mechanical cd players are a thing of the past, in my opinion, and perhaps contrary to the beliefs of old diehards.  When you start to talk about bit perfect, Reed Solomon correction and jitter, a well done computer system is the better alternative, technically, sound wise and convenience wise.  I use a Pace-Car II reclocker with a Squezebox, that outputs i2s to a double crown TDA1541A in an Aya Dac.  It has transistor output stage with no negative feedback.  No tubes needed or welcome.  I have had a number of dacs, with different dac chips, including 1704, 1865, TDA1543 and TDA1541A, but thus far, the Audial dac has proven the most satisfactory.  The next step will be a more modern chip, but so far, I like what I am hearing.  I still think that analogue offers something different and more interesting to me, but most listening I do is digital.

I would not presume to be so arrogant to say that these systems are high end, reference standard or optimal, but I can confidently say I am learning all the time and that with incremental changes, it is improving to the level of acceptable junk.  I am not a fan of any particular brand or acclaimed guru, but rather experiment, read and listen to get things to a better level.  Even the previously aforementioned horn expert freely admits the limitations of his own system, which has evelved over many years and been reworked with fanatical obsession.  The worst attitude is arrogance coupled with ignorance.  There is far too much of that going on these days.


 Welcome to the forum Gthicm. I like a man who speaks his mind. I guess i am the guru you are referring too. Well V-Caps and Mundorfs, Are they good enough to make it into great great sounding components. (forgetting system synergy for a minute). No they are not, at best, they are ordinary, each with a flavor that can suit some systems, but to be fair after listening to the Deulund VSF copper caps they are all ordinary. If there is a better cap out there let me know. As for Romy the Cat, I have heard from people in the know, his system is very good, but its a funny thing that i know a lot of audiophiles who know an incredible amount about hifi stuff, but for some reason there sound is poor. PS I also use some types of Solen caps, very good in the right place, very bad in the wrong place.
Good points and I agree.  I have never used Duelunds.  From my experience, The V-Caps and Solens are very good.  I think that there are really few detractors, but that does not matter.  Whatever does it for you is cool.  Just enjoy the music.

Offline stevenvalve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
  • Liked: 358
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2011, 03:53:34 PM »
Gthicm, you said in your post. To me, Teflon caps, like the V-Caps, Solens and such are pretty neutral.
If that is so, you are saying that all of these caps sound the same, and as you know, they clearly do not. so are they neutral, What is neutral.

Offline gthicm

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Liked: 0
Re: A couple of interesting and inexpensive i/v valve output stages
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2011, 04:11:27 PM »
Gthicm, you said in your post. To me, Teflon caps, like the V-Caps, Solens and such are pretty neutral.
If that is so, you are saying that all of these caps sound the same, and as you know, they clearly do not. so are they neutral, What is neutral.
Sorry if I was not clear.  The Solens I am referring to are TFT, so Teflon and very much like the V-Caps, but less expensive and accordingly why I use them sometimes.  There are other Solens, like Fastcaps, that I think are better performing in power supplies, but not so great in the signal path as coupling capacitors in my experience.  Do you agree?