Special TDA DAC commemoration edition from the Lampizator

[wisnon]

Wisnon,

From the above Lampizator diagram, what is an 'MR superclock'?

I have not heard of this.

cheers

Dont know. Perhaps an explanation can be found at lampizatorforum.com?

[wisnon]

It is a great product besting others at higher prices. Great guy making it as well.

Not just my opinion either.

Yes, the truth is out there and armchair quarterbacking wont find it. Try to get a listen and make up your own mind. Mine is!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The product cant speak for itself if nobody knows of it and nobody auditions it.

I COULD just keep quiet and keep this remarkable discovery to myself or I could try to share by getting the word out. I chose the latter and its my choice to make.

BTW, the Mojo review was done with a March build. The Generation 3 was finalized in April, so they did not even hear the latest build Level 4 with the new summation circuit and tweaked parameters. I know this as my own DAC was updated in July with the latest and greatest. The latest Level 2 will give the older Level for a run for its money. The new Level 4 is game over. Read all the evolving feedback at www.lampzatorforum.com

No problem.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  Lukasz is definitely a great guy and very sincere.  I think however, his claims are overly entusiastic and his enthusiasm is certainly contagious.

As you seem to be very familiar with this product, could you tell everyone what the spdif receiver chip is that is so reolutionary?  Also, what is the summator circuit that seems to convert balanced output to single?  Is it like the Broskie unbalancer circuit?  What are the sonic advantages of this technology?

I tend to scrutinize all claims by a manufacturer with as much information as I can get.  I read on the Lampizator forum that a tube choice for the level 5 is VT99 which the forum administrator claims is rare and dificult to find, and Lukasz claims is the king of soundstage.  This tube is a rather common and cheap 6f8g and is electrically identical to a 6SN7.  It sounds exactly like a 6sn7, so these claims, for example, are great exaggerations at best and BS at worst.  I have over 50 of these tubes in assorted brands including Tungsol roundplates, Raytheon, Sylvania, Kenrad and so on and have paid as little as 2 dollars for a pile of NOS Raytheon.  They are and sound exactly the same as 6sn7, albeit with a different envelope and pinout.  All of theis makes me wonder how many of the other claims are BS.

As I said, I will let time go on and see how this unit stands up to scrutiny by different reviewers and how it compares to other products.  In the meantime, I will employ healthy skepticism.

Are these the tubes you are talking about?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=vt99+tube&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[wisnon]

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.239790472725871.57076.100000847605447&type=1

Very interesting development. It would make a nice comparison with the KILLER DAC.

Wisnon. Had a look, but the link did not work. Interestingly there is a Lampizator dac in Melbourne, and they where talking about it on the SNA forum, but nobody seems to be that keen on it. certainly no rave revue. I must say i expected more from one of his Dacs. But to be fair i have looked at his work on the different stuff he mods,  and he gets to his final result (Sound) in a different way than i do. He does not know the valves to use in his Dacs, but i guess the valves he uses, are cheap and plentiful.

How old? What level?

Since April he has made a quantum leap from even Level 2.5 and has been upgrading older models at reasonable costs. The new StereoMojo review is on the latest Level 4, Generation 3 and it uses the active summator circuit in single ended. RAVE reviews all over the place. I have 5 other (new) friends who bought like me and I got direct feedback over the phone or via email. I have seen about 20 other positive/raving feedback reports. Most comparing the sound to analog and asking if it can even do the unthinkable...

The stereomojo review (though raving) is actually slightly milder than the in-person feedback I have gotten. Let us see what the blog owner of www.digitalaudioblog.som says when he gets his L4 later this week.

I think Lukasz is onto something here!

Steromojo is a waste of time in the last dac shootout they used monarchy amps they are  crap good only for a boat anchor,so to me what stereomojo writes means nothing as they cant even set a system up properly if they had any idea about music they would not use monarchy audio amplification,before you ask yes i had one for a demo a few years back even modded its average and good for back ground music while your  mowing the back lawn.(and i am serious)
So to get any credibility what transports and systems are run with the lampizator dacs,so many times reviews are written based on ordinary to average front ends which don't do justice to music in the first place.

The monarchy amps are what that volunteer reviewer owns. The editor is Jamaes Darby and he has the tons of high end equipment. He also gets second and third opinions from NORMAL audio enthusiasts with real world systems. This way you get a broad divergence of opinion and equipment get tested on different grades of systems.

That makes me feel better,back to the question what systems has the dac been on regarding the rave reviews?

Kayak,

Go here to read the feedback. Most say what their audio system is composed of:

http://www.lampizatorforum.com/lampizator-dac-reviews-f3.html?sid=b6fa3abef50e4cccd4ad2497f1a500ed

[wisnon]

The price of the Lampizator transport is rather steep, at over 2,000 Euros.  For a bit less, once could set up an SB slaved to a Pace-Car from Empirical Audio.  In addition to outputting spdif, it can also output reclocked i2s.  To me, this is a much better solution.  Or, if one wants to avoid the Squeezebox altogether, the Emprical Audio Offramp offers the same flexibility.

The pace car costs $1300 to $1800 plus options (plus power supplies) plus SQBox receiver AND then you have to assemble all this yourself? Plus maybe you also need to upgrade the caps in the SB receiver as well? How is this cheap compared to the LZ transport at 2200euro complete?

I am not debating which sounds better, just the economics.

[wisnon]

The price of the Lampizator transport is rather steep, at over 2,000 Euros.  For a bit less, once could set up an SB slaved to a Pace-Car from Empirical Audio.  In addition to outputting spdif, it can also output reclocked i2s.  To me, this is a much better solution.  Or, if one wants to avoid the Squeezebox altogether, the Emprical Audio Offramp offers the same flexibility.

That makes a lot of sense and I believe the Pace-Car is the only usb-I2S that ticks all my boxes (I think)

- low jitter clocks
- I2S reclocked
- low noise PSU's
- galvanic iso of I2S

Unfortunately with ALL the add ons (best clocks etc) it's up around $2k.

T

For about the same price you get the Transport turnkey solution with:
5 upgrades performed:
-Oscon capacitor tuning (5 critical points)
-New Superclock with own power supply
-High end power supply (replaces the wall-wart)
-Modified output section on main PCB
-Added a tube powered, heavy duty radar tube S/PDIF output.

Outputs: S/PDIF via Toslink, S/Pdif via coax, i2S via three cinch cables. Separate clock output for synchronization with other devices.
DIGITAL SQUARE SIGNAL IS AMPLIFIED BY VACUUM TUBE (digi-lampizator.)

The key differentiator against other commercial products:
The Lampizator Transport, unlike any other computer or HDD transport, has TUBE OUTPUT - not for music but for S/PDIF digital signal. What for ? Well, because it sounds much better. I kept the original traditional chip based output (HC74XX type buffer) to compare. Just play your music and compare  the two outputs on the fly.
The only company in the world which uses this approach is Audio Note in their top Transport CDT-Five (price $175K includes their DAC5 and PSU) but this is an old CD mechanical transport with my own digilampizator added by them at the end. My transport is much more modern, open to all and every music file and storage media format that will ever appear (updated automatically by Slim Devices website).

Why tube digital output sounds so much better ?
I must say that I don't know. It just does.
There are two main factors probably involved here:
The chip that produces SPDIF square wave is not overloaded - it can relax because my Lampizator presents infinite impedance and zero capacitance.
The tube can "drive" the output cables and DAC input circuitry better because it has low impedance output, high speed and high power. So the transport is much less dependant on the digital cable quality. No need to buy exotic cables anymore. ($$$)


Technical description of Lampizator Transport construction:

Squeezebox Duet PCB has Realtek LAN/WAN port management chip
Internal FIFO memory buffer for S/PDIF data (a'la Genesis Digital Lens)
XILINX audio processor
Squeezecenter GUI
Lampizator heavy duty chassis identical to the one of the DAC - color: silver or black anodized aluminum
Custom designed linear heavy duty power supply to the SQB main board
New precision superclock (Polish MR Gen2) with super precise OMIG quartz oscillator (2ppm), separate power supply and own transformer
The SQB data stream signal output circuit  is removed and replaced by my own tube based digi-lampizator using radar type superfast vacuum tube 6H14 from soviet military program
The tube circuit and its parameters are optimized for 75 Ohm S/PDIF square wave and designed by Lukasz Fikus (me ;-)
The tube output buffer has tubed power supply (! ) - yes, the supply is tube-rectified using 6H6P dual triode in diode mode (poetry!). It is based on Lampizator DAC power supply with chokes and big caps. The last cap before anode is Paper in Oil from Polish army.


Please explain to me, as a non-techie, what the big differences in approaches are for the 2 types of implementation and why would one be THEORETICALLY better than the other. I dont ask you to comment on sonic attributes, as that would require you to hear both. Honest question seek a reasoned, honest response. I am sure that Steve makes great products, so that is not in question. I just want to understand the different approaches.

[gthicm]

I am not an electircal engineer so cannot explain anything in too technical terms.  What the Pace-Car does, in my layman's understanding, is to slave a high quality clock to the SB clock, take the data into a buffer with logic and reclock the output for either i2s or spdif, with significantly lowered jitter.  The build is excellent and there is a lot of knowledge and experience behind the design and implementation.  The SB has is own memory buffer and the one in the Pace-Car is discrete and apart from this.  My understanding is that is a different design and far superior to that of the Digital Lens mentioned in your post in the description of the product, which is quite old technology and the subject of past criticism.

The Pace-Car has been around for some time, so for further details and reviews, check out the Empirical Audio website and postings on the net.  The technical details are explained far better than I can.  Further, one can use the i2s output and it can also slave to word clocks of other dacs.  It is very versatile and not purpose built for one application.  It does not have a tube amplifier for spdif output, but I do know that this is well designed and rivals the sound from the i2s. 

[gthicm]

The price of the Lampizator transport is rather steep, at over 2,000 Euros.  For a bit less, once could set up an SB slaved to a Pace-Car from Empirical Audio.  In addition to outputting spdif, it can also output reclocked i2s.  To me, this is a much better solution.  Or, if one wants to avoid the Squeezebox altogether, the Emprical Audio Offramp offers the same flexibility.

The pace car costs $1300 to $1800 plus options (plus power supplies) plus SQBox receiver AND then you have to assemble all this yourself? Plus maybe you also need to upgrade the caps in the SB receiver as well? How is this cheap compared to the LZ transport at 2200euro complete?

I am not debating which sounds better, just the economics.

Hmm, do the math.  In USD, the Lampizator is $3,200 US at today's exchange rate.  Assuming that you add a lot of upgrades to the Pace-Car and hit $2,000, plus say $400 US for the SB modded, still have $800 left over.  Caps in the SB? No need to upgrade anything.  If you use a stock Pace-Car, you could pocket $1,400 US.  I think you should invest a few of these saved dollars in a new calculator.

[wisnon]

If you look at Swiss francs you would know how vastly the Franc has been fluctuating against both the Euro and the dollar.

I try to not just look at today's FXrate, as in 6 months, things could be quite different. Dont be surprised if even Empirical has to raise dollar prices. I depends on how their cost base currency fares against the dollar selling price. The dollar has collapsed against the franc 35%+ since January! Hence I take a less "calculating" approach and look at relative values over a longer horizon.

I guess you are only comparing APPARENT sonic benefits, as the Lamp transport has to have a bigger chassis, linear power supplies (so we can only compare both TOP offerings), upgraded caps, external antenna and a few more parts than the Pace solution. Sonically as you say, the base PACEcar maybe be better, or the Lamp may be better than any Pace solution. I have no clue there.

The Lamp does NOT run a stock SB receiver, it has a digilampizator section that produces square tube SPDIF out, it also has i2s out and SS spdif out as well. In the PACEcar solution you describe, would you be using the Duet receiver with the supplied (dirty) walwart power supply? A good linear power supply for the SB receiver could run you another $300-400 bucks.

However, my point is that given the parts and the work put in, for a one box turnkey solution, I dont see why you say the Lamp price is rather steep. If anything, the commercial markup is modest.

Having said all of that, I do see where, as you say, the Pacecar is more versatile in its uses and that does count for something.

[gthicm]

If you look at Swiss francs you would know how vastly the Franc has been fluctuating against both the Euro and the dollar.

I try to not just look at today's FXrate, as in 6 months, things could be quite different. Dont be surprised if even Empirical has to raise dollar prices. I depends on how their cost base currency fares against the dollar selling price. The dollar has collapsed against the franc 35%+ since January! Hence I take a less "calculating" approach and look at relative values over a longer horizon.

I guess you are only comparing APPARENT sonic benefits, as the Lamp transport has to have a bigger chassis, linear power supplies (so we can only compare both TOP offerings), upgraded caps, external antenna and a few more parts than the Pace solution. Sonically as you say, the base PACEcar maybe be better, or the Lamp may be better than any Pace solution. I have no clue there.

The Lamp does NOT run a stock SB receiver, it has a digilampizator section that produces square tube SPDIF out, it also has i2s out and SS spdif out as well. In the PACEcar solution you describe, would you be using the Duet receiver with the supplied (dirty) walwart power supply? A good linear power supply for the SB receiver could run you another $300-400 bucks.

However, my point is that given the parts and the work put in, for a one box turnkey solution, I dont see why you say the Lamp price is rather steep. If anything, the commercial markup is modest.

Having said all of that, I do see where, as you say, the Pacecar is more versatile in its uses and that does count for something.

Well, your speculations about the potential of dramatic currency fluctuations is highly speculative and specious.  I suppose also that IF the US housing market recovers and IF the jobless rate in the US decreases and IF Germany enters a depression and IF pigs fly concurrently with the aforesaid happenings, then the Lampizator Transport MIGHT be less price competitive.  Consider your corallary.  But the truth is that it isn't NOW and most probably will not be.  IF you are so sure of what you are saying, you better invest your money in the currency markets.

The Lampizator is bigger so it is better?  What are you saying?  To me the opposite is the case.  Devices like the Pace-Car are well implemented with purpose designed boards and well designed components by an engineer with background in computer technology and audio devices.  You can research his background.  Sorry, but I am not so enthralled with cold war surplus parts and unknown "super" clocks.  I have nothing against stuff made in Eastern Europe, as my current favorite dac is made in Serbia, but not with Soviet leftovers.

The Lampizator has i2s output?  Not listed in the specs.  Yes, the SB is modded with soldered on caps and stuff and who knows what else, but so what?  The Pace-Car is only slaved to the SB clock.  There is no benefit to upgrading the SB power supplies as the Pace-Car can accept even crappy polluted power fed SBs, to a point, and buffers and reclocks.  I know this from personal experience as I had a standard wallwart with leaking capacitors that was so bad, the display on the SB stopped working, but the sound was great.  I used a linear power supply and the SB worked fine but no sound improvement.  It is true what Empirical says that the power supply for the SB has no sonic impact.  You need to do some more research as to why this is.  So no need for 300 to 400 dollar power supplies.

Your points are really too far out there and an obviously illogical attempt to defend the product.  Please reread my prior posts about people becoming almost religious in their fervor to defend their beloved product.  I think it is pretty clear that the Pace-Car solution is a significantly less expensive alternative than the Lampizator Transport, and at least from what I can see thus far, better for me.  Of course for you the conclusion might be different.  I will take the 800 to 1,200 dollar savings, as of today, and invest in a new dac.  I think it will be an Overdrive.

[wisnon]

Take it easy man! Chill pill.

I am not defending anything per se. I have never heard EITHER and I stated as such.

If you see above i2s IS in the specs: Outputs: S/PDIF via Toslink, S/Pdif via coax, i2S via three cinch cables

The FX rates have been all over the place with UNPRECEDENTD volatility in 2011. Just go to this sit and play around with dates and see the rates: http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/

You do realize that when the Euro came into being in 2001, the rate was 85cents US for 1 Euro, dont you? Back then $1 cost about CHF1.60, on August 10 this year it took $1.35 to buy ONE Swiss Franc. Much of these movements happened in the last 18 months.

For years (since about 2002) I have been predicting that the dollar would fall to parity with the franc and so-called sensible people laughed at me. Who is laughing now? and yeah, I do know about investment finance, as I am a CFA charterholder afterall. My point is that just looking at today's volatile price may be shortsighted. if today's rate persist, you WILL see significant price shifts over the longer term. Business cannot absorb all the shocks on a permanent basis. Small business have even less leeway.

I at no time spoke of bigger being better! I went out of my way to avoid any such discussion. I merely showed input costs as a reference to see if the price was "rather steep" as you say.

You have aptly described your experience with the Pacecar solution and I am grateful for that. However, by the same token, try to avoid the same "religious" label you keep trying to pin on me (totally unnecessary in the context of this conversation). You have NOT heard the other solution, so you should not try to impugn it without any sonic references whatsoever. Unlike you (apparently), I have no skin in the game, no preference for either as I have never heard any of them and I am just trying to learn more about this. Also, Steve seems like a stand up guy who clearly knows what he is doing.

I also dont see how just rebuffering and reclocking (both great for jitter reduction) deals with nasty RFI emissions from leaky caps and dirty power supplies. The SB Duet has a PARTICULARLY dirty wallwart power supply. Far worse than the Touch or the SB3. Perhaps it does, but it does not seem intuitive. However, I accept your observation that you did not sense any audible deterioration.

Anyway, I am mixing topics here. This was more about pricing than sonic attributes. The way you spoke in an earlier post, I was expecting like a $500 price for the Pacecar...not like $2K, which gets "UP There" and certainly strips away any pretentions to it being the "no-brainer" way to go. It may be better, or it may not, but it is a pretty pricey add on.

Besides, The Lamp Transport is versatile enough to slave its clock to other devices, as can be seen in the writeup posted above. Separate clock output for synchronization with other devices.

[kajak12]

I also dont see how just rebuffering and reclocking (both great for jitter reduction) deals with nasty RFI emissions from leaky caps and dirty power supplies. The SB Duet has a PARTICULARLY dirty wallwart power supply. Far worse than the Touch or the SB3. Perhaps it does, but it does not sound intuitive. However, I accept your observation that you did not sense any audible deterioration.

I fully back you up with the above statement regarding sb duet power supply its ordinary why put so much effort into power supplies in amps,and dacs when the transport has problems a weak link imho.

[wisnon]

Apparently the dirty duet Wall warts bleeds RFI all over the place, even back up into the electrical outlet and pollutes everything in the chain.

The Touch and the SB3 both have better switching PSUs, though not very clean either, but workable. The touch can be isolated by putting it in a far removed outlet.

[gthicm]

I am sorry if you go the impression that I was agitated in any way.  I am an attorney and English major, so my tone and choice of words may seem abrupt.  I just think that it is a little overeaching to suggest that future potential exchange rate fluctuations enter into the decision of the purchase of audio gear.  It of course is not true when buying in quantity.

I think some of the misunderstanding here is in the different approach taken by the two products.  The Lampizator takes an existing mass market product, employs enhancements to it and achieves the results in that fashion.  Everything on the SB has an impact, including on board power supplies, buffer and the like.  So, there have to be design compromises and one change has multiple effects. There is a lot to address doing it this way.  

The PaceCar takes the data from whatever device is being used, in this case the SB, stores, reclocks it and outputs in a discrete device that is galvanically isolated from the SB.  So ong as the data properly hits the buffer in the PaceCar, it is ok and the PaceCar output is clean and isolated from the SB, with its external wallwart and internal power regulation.  There are very few design constraints going this way, as there are really no mods to the SB, just slaving the clock.  The PaceCar has many clock and power options so you can decide for yourself how far it is worth going.  I think it is fair to say that the PaceCar has few compromises with its purpose designed circuit, boards, selected components and power supply design.

Input cost for the PaceCar is probably higher than Lampizator.  The cost of steel cases, surplus parts and such is probably quite a bit lower than the PaceCar.  This is specualtion but seems likely to me.

On cost, the PaceCar is not cheap.  But I have demonstrated that it is somewhere between 800 to 1,200 dollars less than the Lampizator.  So, one third less is not significant?  I personally think that it is and moreover the PaceCar can be used with multiple devices.  Again, to me, the cost/benefit ratio favors the PaceCar, substantially.

[wisnon]

All fine and good GT.

I really appreciate your feedback.

I am really just on a knowledge quest here....

Business try to keep pricing stable, and normally its not a big problem in normal times. These times are FAR from normal. I have NEVER seen such FX volatilty, and all kinds of goods are being price warped. Here in Switz, you see prices refelecting the FX rate from 2 years ago, so much so the Govt is getting involved and trying to force prices down. Petrol prices here have actually fallen in the last 6 weeks, even as global oil prices in dollars have climbed.

Hence the impled "value" of the Euro to me has changed over time. Long term I see it as 1:1 vs the USD.

The input costs in the EuroZone are not obviously cheaper. What you call surplus parts now costs a lot more than they did 2 years ago. I showed you an Ebay link for vt99 tubes for example and they were running up to $50 each...certainly not $2. Look at the costs of DIY chassis...they are not insubstantial, even on line. Finally, the PaceCar is likely mass produced and so labour costs may be way cheaper than the hand built Lamp units. As to the constant reference to spaghetti wiring, what does that have to do with anything sonic? I dont take off the case to admire neat layout. i dont care about that at all. Only about reliability and performance.

Having said all that, the most powerfal argument you presented was was the versatility of the Pacecar. that makes it very interesting.

[gthicm]

Understand what you are saying.  Empirical Audio is really a one man band, so all of the design and much of the assembly is done by Steve Nugent.  The quality is realy there and the execution seems to be excellent.  The cost of a lot of his components is supposedly quite high, as a lot are not so commonly used.  Truly, the cost of Russian surplus may have risen, but it is comparatively low.  Just check Ebay.  The reason for it is that the system in Russia was not to build to market, but build and keep on building.  Thus there are or were warehouses bulging with excess parts just sitting there.  Not the same in capitalist countries.

The 6f8gs or VT99 are 6sn7 equivalents.  The prices go up and down, but there are real bargains out there.  You need to look at prices of NOS 6sn7s compared to 6f8g.  For example, a Tungsol roundplate can go for 200 each whereas the same 6f8g for 100.  I bought loads of TS roundplate 6f8gs for $30 each.  So, relatively speaking, cheap.  That was my point.  They are not uber expensive exotics.  7n7 is even cheaper.

I do not keep on referring to the type of wiring.  But you have to admit it is a little messy.  Truthfully, I do care about wiring inside and try my best to keep it neat.  Better routing helps avoid noise issues too, not to say that is an issue with Lampizator.  If I pay good money for any product, I would expect the execution of the design to be as good as possible, even with point to point wiring.

[wisnon]

Lukasz does not do the wiring and soldering for the commercial units. He does the tinkering and when satisfied passes the plans to his assembler who is way better at it and much neater. it even says so on the website.

The photos you see are Lukasz's prototypes or special editions, not the normal commercial product.

I guess if he was overly marketing concerned, he would use the most attractively wired units, but its more about sound with him. The sonics are selling for him. Almost everyone (non-DIY) who hears one shells out for it. Dixchen at Hi4sale is a DIY guy who had an early prototype (orders of magnitude inferior to the current generation 3) and he has high praises for the unit.

I have done my best to guesstimate Lukasz cost base and it is not as low as you think.

GT, trust me on this one...The Lamp dac sound gooood. No BS. It is the bees knees. Most of the people giving feedback on the Lamp forum are people I have either spoken to on the phone or emailed with. Some have become very good telephone buddies. One for example is the president of a medium sized US company and because of our common interest in music and the Lampizator DAC that brought us together, I now have him on speed dial and we communicate multiple times on some days. This is how I know the feedback is genuine and enthusiastic. Lukasz is truly humbled and amazed by the feedback. Remember, I have no stake in this whatsoever. I just like to see small creative entrepreneurs like Lukasz and Steve prosper. They deserve it as they give us amazing gifts and do what they love with passion. Kudos to people like that.

Never heard the KillerDac but from what I read, it  MUST sound good too, but you have to know how to MAKE one.
As for Steve, his stuff looks excellent too, so I can take your word for it even without hearing for myself.

[wisnon]

Thanks for that GT.

It is not so easy to duplicate the Lamp Dac from what I understand. Yes, maybe the overall concept, but not the implementation. That has taken a long time to refine.

Enjoy what you have too. That is really what is important.

[wisnon]

GT

The price of the Transport is now €1,900

http://lampizator.eu/shop/viewitem.php?productid=148

[kajak12]

GT

The price of the Transport is now €1,900

http://lampizator.eu/shop/viewitem.php?productid=148

What a deal i will sell my cd94's and buy 2 lampizator transports

[wisnon]

LoL

What took you so long to snap at the bait my good friend? LoL