Author Topic: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192  (Read 174762 times)

Offline rhlauranna

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DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« on: September 05, 2012, 09:56:00 PM »
here it comes...
here it comes...
here it comes... no, not your 19th nervous breakdown, but magic, goose bumps, and satisfaction, deepest satisfaction, which makes not only my dreams comes true...

to make it short: I want to listen to music exactly like that !!! no more discussion necessary...

you want analogue ? perfect analogue ? then go digital !!!


well, let me start with some pictures...

this is the "apparatus" Doede built for himself, it shows not only a four deck 24 - 192 DAC but also his - especially for these purposes - constructed controlled power supply which delivers not only the 12 volt for the DAC itself but also the other needed voltages, i.e. 5 volt for the USB-Part and so on...

the splitting of the power from the USB and handling on the controlled power supply alone led to an incredible amelioration in sound...

to me this is an absolutely top notch ingenious world class master achievement, from bottom to the top, through and through, all expectations have been exceeded by far, and one can easily hear this, I would hardly have been able to articulate my wishes regarding these results in words before the beginning of the construction: this simply is genious and let's nothing more to be desired !!!! this is really a 500 horse power formula I machine... but, one has to be aware how to get them on the road...

(aaahh, by the way, I know that you are not that involved into measurements, but I am the biggest fan of squares, and the squares are absolutely perfect, they reach from lowest lows till highest highs, more than 96.000 Hz...)

« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 02:32:19 AM by rhlauranna »

tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 09:57:40 PM »
damn Reinhard! made me excited for nothing!!

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 10:05:23 PM »
I'm sorry, but at the moment I have big troubles with the size of the pictures, all way too big, and the amount of pictures per box...

so, please, be patient...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 10:07:43 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline kajak12

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    • http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php
Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 10:46:57 PM »
we need photos of the inside  ;) ;) ;)
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 11:56:56 PM »
such a damn job to unnecessarily work on the pics for hours to make them fit in here, a job for a slave...

why can't I upload the pictures just from my camera ???

well, here are some more...

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 12:11:00 AM »
oh my, maximum size allowed for me is 512 kb... I already downsized the pictures under 200 kb, but only two are uploaded...

work for sysyphus...

some more...

the picture on the bottom shows the most slim version of the new DAC, only one deck, i.e. two 1794 chips, one for the left and one for the right channel, so you have already two per channel...

and yes, Tuyen, the controlled power supply from Bernd, is working with this DAC except the 5 volt for USB, which Doede generated seperately on his controlled power supply in the box...

what we have presumed long time: we have to get rid at least of the power within USB !!!

« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 01:15:12 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 12:17:05 AM »
yes, and this is the eight deck DAC, with 16 chips...

the "wonder" in precising the sound with multiplying chips is nearly the same as with the 16 Bit DAC, not totally extremely the same, but that significant that it is for us no question at all to mount onto that level, more power, more pressure, more punch, more... yes, more from all, just the right amount to come to real "life"...

and yes, we can understand now when some people say, well, high res is not good, sometimes even really bad, o.k., it is the same with CDs, there are good ones and there are bad ones, but when everything is right with 24 Bit, then magic appears, life, no doubt...

magic appears for example with Neil Young, Life at Massey Hall 24/192 (the CD alone gets my 100 points), Diana Krall and Cat Stevens - Tea for the Tillerman...

more to come if you like, now I have to drive to Klaus for another super session to get used to the new dimension...

aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh....

« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 01:05:50 AM by rhlauranna »

tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 01:41:15 AM »
Reinhard, nice! many thanks for sharing.

I'm keen for this, if it is a marked improvement over the DDDAC1543 MK2.  That is assuming Doede brings the unit into production either as finished or kit form...

Enjoy listening at Klaus'!

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 02:31:04 AM »
Reinhard, nice! many thanks for sharing.

I'm keen for this, if it is a marked improvement over the DDDAC1543 MK2.  That is assuming Doede brings the unit into production either as finished or kit form...

Enjoy listening at Klaus'!


well, from what I got to know from Doede he will put his units onto his homepage www.dddac.com so that every interested DIY might take advantage of this developement if he likes...

on the other hand we have not yet evalutated the exact differences or being better of the new DAC in comparison to the - no, not at all old - 16 Bit DAC, many more tests will show that...

what I can say at the moment, is that the new DAC has all the advantages in high res in sound that we are so happily used to from the 16 Bit DAC... and that was the thing that we primarily wanted...

on the other hand, I told you already, you are still far away from tickeling all the qualities out of your 16 bit DAC, I strongly would recommend you to concentrate on the combination with controlled power supply which is compatible to the 24 bit DAC...

that really should bring you quite dramatically the most at the moment... why ? because with your 16 bit DAC you have already 500 horse powers, and before building the second floor, bring them first onto the road just right and create with it the basement for 24 bit !!!!

by the way, I could not follow the fullfillment of your project regarding the multi channel Hiraga amps, what's up with it ? active multi channel class A brings you some 20-30% amelioration in sound, and what a sound !!!!



« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 08:49:57 AM by rhlauranna »

tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2012, 08:45:09 AM »
Hi Reinhard

I messages Doede about the design for power supply that supported 120 chips. He said he will get back to me, but hasn't. So no progress on that front. I am not technically knowledges enough to design or modify the sample psu design he has shown on his web page for 60 chip so that it supports 120 chips. Unless I just build 2 of them and just run half of the modules with one and other half with the other? I was hoping for a more elegant solution..

Re the hiragas le monstres, I've given up on them for now.  I've built a passive crossover so that I can use a single power amp (or separate the woofer with the horn channels and bi-amp if desired).  Now I have the freedom to listen and appreciate the sonic qualities of different amps (whether it be tube or solid state).  I am currently switching between a 20watt hiraga based classe a amp  and a pair of replica Western Electric 124 mono block amps.  Next is to also try a nice ultra low powered 46 SET tube amp (2 watt) to run the horn channels and either the hiraga 20w or accuphase 50watt to power the woofers in a bi-amp setup. 

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 06:52:28 PM »
so, finally for all DIY who might be interested to learn more about the new "wonder", here is the new Internet page of Doede, which just has become ready:

http://www.dddac.com

please, read for yourself and enjoy !!!

let me draw your attention to another very special "thing" which I personally like very much and that might find your interest as well: the complete and comfortable remote control for the new DDDAC 24 Bit 192 kHz:

http://www.dddac.com/otherprojects_ipad.html


« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 06:55:40 PM by rhlauranna »

tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2012, 08:28:06 PM »
Awesome thanks for the heads up, Reinhard.

Been waiting for this for a while now.

How does it sound compared to the dddac1543? How many modules have you managed to stack so far?

Thanks again,
Tuyen

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2012, 12:17:47 AM »
Awesome thanks for the heads up, Reinhard.

Been waiting for this for a while now.

How does it sound compared to the dddac1543? How many modules have you managed to stack so far?

Thanks again,
Tuyen

well, to be honest, it is much much much to early to make and/or expect serious results regarding the comparison between the two DACs at the moment... my 120 DDDAC 1543 to my ears is as close to perfection for 16 bit as I have ever listened to... and the same is valid for the single chip DDDAC 1784 for 24 bit...

what you want to know is clear, that's exactly what I want to know as well, and as quickly as possible, but we will still have to be patient for the results for quite a while because

1. it really would be hardly meaningful to compare at this moment a completely and on the long run burnt in 120 chip 16 bit DAC against a single chip 24 bit running in 16 bit mode just finding together...

2. the different adjustment of input/output levels of the individual DACs (1,2 volt with the 24 bit and 1,6 volt with the 16 bit - which should be some 2 volts) still have to be built... Doede has just finished to build this for himself at his home, but till now we have not yet had the chance to test it exept for some single tracks...  we will have to wait till this is burnt in and then listen to much longer and much more intensively

3. except Doede we (Klaus, Bernd and me) have just started with one deck... we have already listened to Doede's four deck DAC, but not yet burnt in, and not yet harmonised, just to see if the multiplication of the chips lead to the same or similar effects as with the multiplying of the 16 bit chips, and yes, they do, but different, in any case that way, that there is no way back... the same here: much to early to report seriously...

but to give you an impression: there are indeed severe positive ameliorations in sound reproduction, and to my ears they all tend without exception in the right direction, and the best that I ever listened to is indeed Neil Young Live at Massey Hall, 24 bit 192 kHz... Massey Hall is in my room, and Neil singing 3 meters in front of me, and I can "see" the single strings of his guitar and the keys of his piano as narrow as they are in nature, and the best, his voice when speaking and singing is only some ten-fifteen cm in diametre, there is a dramatic gain in focus, which is simply incredible, as is with all the other instruments, standing side by side, no longer intermingling in the reproduction picture, and the high resolution hand clapping of the audience is simply frighteningly realistic... and we are really grateful not having at all any problems in getting it as "loud" as in reality... but this process is still not yet totally finished and of course will be closely observed...

all in all this is definitely without any doubt the right way to go for us, and once listened to there is no way back for us... I am just burning in that what I was able to get so far - please keep in mind that it all has to be built at the moment by Doede himself in parallel for Klaus, Bernd, himself and me - and what I have is the most basic version, one "single" board, as to be seen on the picture above, with the two Mundorf Caps, it happens to be exactly that one on the picture which some time ago still was Doede's deck till he completed his box that he built for himself for fullfilling his personal and specific needs...

what I can already tell without any overemphasizing after some 120 hours in which the "wonder" is burning in and finding itself together is: everything is more and better than I anticipated in my imaginations - the naturalness and reality in sound is very narrowly oszillating around the border of perfection, a level that I could not imagine being reachable at all and easily the supremely best that I ever listened to, and there is absolutely no doubt this will stay as is, and it will be utmost fun to experiment with all the planned ameliorations in the future, i.e. parallelising chips, i.e. more decks, separating of the 5 volt from the USB connection, and yes, even getting rid of the caps within the signal path with the new Sowters (see his homepage), which Doede has had being built according to his specifications... but I am not yet able to comment on these things seriously (although these things all sound "better" right from the start)...

and we are very glad that all these things seem to reach "perfection" just right in time as we will have our next big session at the beginning of december not only with Jean Hiraga but also with Shinichi Tanaka from Goto Unit in Japan together with two japanese pianists, and from what I heard they are just discussing if Seiya Goto himself (84 years) will be able to accompany them... that indeed would be a sensation !!!




« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 07:03:27 AM by rhlauranna »

tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2012, 12:39:25 AM »
Thanks Reinhard.  Things do seem promising anyway.

I'll keep my 120chip dddac1543 here.. still waiting for proper power supply that can support the current draw.    Might have to put it aside now that I want to try Doede's new design.  I have some Bud Purvine O'netics output transformers that would most probably be suitable for use on the this new dac too...

You'll be happy to know I'm in process of moving towards 50hz front loaded horns for my SG-38WN woofers.    Tested it a few nights ago and indeed the transient speed and scale is something special.  The drivers seem to be made for this.

Any mid-high SG-370 with matching S-600 horns lying around anywhere?  I foolishly sold mine a while ago to try something else..


Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2012, 01:04:09 AM »
regarding Bernd's superb controlled power supply I forgot to mention

1. it runs with both DACs, with DDDAC 16 bit and DDDAC 24 bit, so we need only one, we are lucky men, aren't we?

2. the "problem" with the corresponding power supply is that it is not Doede's development but Bernd's, but it was that good, that Doede immediately built one for himself, unfortunately Doede is not "authorised" by Bernd to tell about it, therefore he did not yet answer...

and unfortunately I am not a technician and not able to explain what parts are used and what is going on within the controlled power supply, but from the result it is simpy "magic" as well, bringing some incredible 30% of amelioration in sound (we would not have believed it, if we would not have tried it out personally) and it is unimaginably better than the thick car and lorry batteries that had been in use for years... an incredible discovery by accident...

yes, and your "moving towards 50hz front loaded horns" is the right way to go, that will bring you really fun not only for your bass but for your whole sound...

as should do your active multi-amping (even with the worst and cheapest amps on the planet)... go straight ahead, this is one of the most dramatic and possible ameliorations in sound at all...

...and that's fine, here you have learnt by yourself: "...SG-370 with matching S-600 horns... I foolishly sold mine a while ago to try something else.." absolutely right you are, Goto drivers are not to top, only by better Goto drivers... perhaps you might want to try to buy them back or ask Mr. Tanaka if he can help you out...

by the way, just the other day I talked to Klaus, and he was just 27 years of age (like you !) when he started with Gotos...

« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 07:05:20 PM by rhlauranna »

tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2012, 07:31:36 PM »
Hopefully Doede publishes some recommended power supply solution for his newly designed DAC.   The pages for circuits diagram/power supply section has no content.    I do plan on purchasing a complete dac kit with wave usb module  from Doede's store.      So the whole DAC is run from 11V DC?

I'm currently not multi-amping.  I was ultimately not happy with the vintage Pioneer D-23 4-way electronic crossover I was using.   What sort of electronic crossover are you using?  Or do you have a passive line level crossover (PLLXO) especially designed for your setup?  

I'm curious how low does your bass horns play down to in room?  40hz -3db?   Do you have anything that takes care of the first octave (20-40hz)?  

Klaus has been at it for a very long time it seems. I can only imagine how great his system sounds.  It is a pity we can't communicate, to learn more from his experience.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 07:34:49 PM by tuyen »

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2012, 12:18:23 AM »
hi tuyen,

the best in any case is to contact Doede personally... I am sorry, I cannot help you with the power supply, believe me, I would, if I could...

regarding your bass horn, well, from what I see on your link to some SG38WN bass chassis this is not a straight 50 cycle horn, and to be honest, I have to admit I have no experiences with such space saving "castrated" horns...

what we cared for the last thirty years in horn construction was always, I repeat "always", according to the physical laws without compromises, and that was straight horns, exponential, tractrix, hyperbolic...
not curved, and not folded...

so, if you talk about a 50 cycle straight horn, this is some 4 m in length and some 2,20 m in diametre... for a SG146LD... if you have a SG38... on such a horn the length shortens that long till you have a beginning mouth of 38 cm in diameter, that is about 1 meter short, i.e. some 3 meters in total...

but, a 50 cycle horn does not mean that the frequency response is cut off at 50 cycles, no you enter a different way of reproduction, 50 cycle horn means, you are able to hear 50 cycle upwards to 20.000 cycles whereever you are in the room, even behind your speakers you hear natural music, it is like walking around the playing band...

and of course you will be able to "hear" deeper frequencies, but these depend on your room... physics are merciless, there is 330 meters per second, so if you want to "hear" 30 cycles, you have to devide 330 by 30, i.e. 11, so in eleven meter distance of the beginning of the driver you will hear a tone of 30 cycles, from an organ for example, if you listen to the sound closer than eleven meters your body will recognize the 30 cycles only as pressure on your body, as is when you are on a platform on a station and a train rolls in, the vibrations your body realizes are some 3 or 4 cycles...

if a 50 cycle horn would be too large for your room, then make it shorter, cut it to 60, 70, 80 or 90 cycle, exactly to that depth that is suitable for your room, but keep it straight and as round as possible... that gains you the most and the precisest...


tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2012, 07:56:44 AM »
Not sure if i agree with you regarding only using a straight horn for bass, even if room can only fit (say a 80hz horn). If from your listening position, the systems frequency response if unable to reproduce enough energy between 20-80hz for example, the music will sound terrible and very uninvolving in my opinion.  The compression bass driver might support down to 20hz, but the horns loading profile (plus room size & placement) that dictate how low it will play down to in the room.   So if my room only fits a 50hz bass horn (in folded design) and from simple RTA freq response plot from measurements at listening position, how would you advise to reproduce the remaining 20-50hz in room response required?

Or would you rather a 80hz straight bass horn with system response rolling of even earlier? ( maybe say 70-80hz)?

Personally to me and my music tastes, I can't stand listening to music if it doesn't have atleast a strong flat 40hz in room response.  This is why I am taking advice from Jeffrey Jackson who has setup a few Goto horn systems before and implement a subwoofer or two to be able to reproduce the 20-60hz range that I know my future bass horns (does not matter if straight or folded design) is unable to do. Have done few measurements of my woofer in the said bass horns already.

A simple frequency response sweep from listening position can a rough idea on things.

Anyway, have sent doede an email regarding the power supply requirements. Will report back here what info I get!



Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2012, 08:56:26 AM »
well, you have all possibilties to try out for yourself, so go ahead and build, it is rather cheap with MDF... but most of all, listen for yourself...

except Klaus, we presumably all have to make compromises, because of size and space... you, and me as well... now, see my 50 cycle horn over at Stefano where the last part, the big part, where the mouth should open to 2,20 m is missing simply because of space here... well, with SG146LD on... normally one would think, hey, most of the horn is missing, so should be missing half of the sound... well, it is not...

just the other day I had a visitor here, it happened to be an Australien, who before visited Shinichi Tanaka in Japan and listened there to some highest end systems with highest end Goto drivers and I asked him about his impressions when playing an organ down to the very ground on my system, i.e. 20 cycles, at 3,00 meters distance from the mouth opening: do you miss something ? and he said: no, everything is there.... and indeed everything is there... no frequencies missing, the only thing: you don't realize them all as tones but as pressure, and you are right, if that pressure is missing, the sound becomes awful and lacking in substance...

listening position: well, with straight horns sitting in the focus really becomes neglectible, when in theatre you hardly ever sit in the total focus, you sit to the left, to the right, back or in front, but you always are able to hear what is happening on stage, or don't you ? same with straight horns... listening experiences change very advantageously...

enough energy: of course your driver receives the full power of your channel devider with all frequencies made for him, they don't get diminuished...

from what I can see on your pictures of your room an 80 or 90 cycle straight horn would do best, it is perhaps some 1,60 - 2 metres in depth, but please, don't listen to me, try it out, it's your ears, I can only recommend...


« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 09:00:42 AM by rhlauranna »

tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 11:37:09 AM »
Thanks Reinhard :)  Will report back on how I go with the bass horns project.

Circuit and pcb layout of DDDAC1794 NOS:
http://www.dddac.com/documents/dddac1794_nos_ver20.pdf

zenelectro, being technically knowledged as you are, thoughts?

I be keen to wire up my jkeny hiface usb-i2s battery powered module onto the i2s inputs to compare it to the waveIO usb that Doede uses.