Author Topic: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192  (Read 174859 times)

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #180 on: March 05, 2014, 02:48:01 PM »
As for the DDDAC1794NOS,  here are some photos of a 16 chip version my friend has built.   He is using the custom sowter output transformers (highly recommend) over the capacitor output.   2watt Audionote tantalum resistors for the IV.   I've been using 2watt Shinkoh tantalum resistors, but currently trying 2W Allen Bradley carbon resistors which are just as good. Just different.







How are you finding Doede's new design over the previous one?

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #181 on: March 05, 2014, 03:32:29 PM »
Tuyen That is some DAC, but all those electrolytic caps can add each capacitors character and colourations, If the caps where neutral, it would not be a problem but they never are, what does he think of it's sound. Is that stack earthquake proof.

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #182 on: March 05, 2014, 03:58:24 PM »
Agreed that everything adds some form of colouration/distortion to the signal (to varying degrees though right?). 

My friend likes the sound I think.  It'll be painful to admit if he didn't like the sound after spending over 2k on the kit!

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #183 on: March 05, 2014, 04:02:35 PM »
Agreed that everything adds some form of colouration/distortion to the signal (to varying degrees though right?). 

My friend likes the sound I think.  It'll be painful to admit if he didn't like the sound after spending over 2k on the kit!
I can see he used audio grade caps, with the gold strip.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #184 on: March 05, 2014, 04:33:55 PM »
I can see he used audio grade caps, with the gold strip.
Yeah, they look like Elna cerafines to me,  picture is abit fuzzy,  but I think they are elna's.

It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #185 on: March 05, 2014, 05:16:10 PM »
 ??? 2K is chicken feed in Audio, so don't see why he'd be not willing to say it's not what he hoped for if that is indeed the case.

I really hope it takes Chan to where he wants to be and brings him lot's of pleasure without the constant swapping out of pieces of kit robbing the bank balance. :'(
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #186 on: March 05, 2014, 05:37:45 PM »
Sorry, was a tongue-in-cheek post :)

I lent Chanh a couple of DACs (including my 4 stack DDDAC1794 NOS) for a few weeks so he could play around with them in his system before he made the decision of going down the path he has taken.

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #187 on: March 06, 2014, 07:45:29 AM »
Hi Tuyen,

you wrote: "...allergic to 'computer audio' like some audiophiles I have met?    Just the thought of having to use a computer to play music makes them shiver.   They don't care how good it may perform!   The squares from an oscilloscope don't mean much to these audiophiles who don't
believe there is any link between measurements and music replay..."

yes, that's it: it was exactly the same with me some five years ago when it all started... "Per aspera, ad astra." One has to get "used" to those new techniques, to new "handys", to new ultra HDTV, to new Oled-TV, to new DACs and so on...

right you are, there will ever be some who will refuse... for those a proverb in Germany which goes something like this seems to fit: "Those who are no longer curious, are old!" and that's exactly the cause why the new target of the richest society on globe, "Apple", is directed to young people between four and twenty years of age... why? they still learn and adapt by playing...

...and you know the difference between "believing" and "knowing"... those who know "nothing" always have to "believe"... and you will always have to make your own experiences...  and this is not easy, this is work...

but I am not a preacher... for us to get rid of that "deficiency" in "not knowing" we have come so far within the last two decades that we try out everything by measuring  a n d  listening and vice versa... and this is absolutely indispensable... from a certain reproduction level onwards "ears" alone are no longer "sufficient" to make things out (there is no two identical pair of them, they are neither identical between left and right), and to be able to "ameliorate" that, what we really want...

and whenever it came to more perfect squares, this was clearly and immediately listenable (for all different ears)... and hey, measurements, when Formula 1 racing cars are on the road, the computer is on board, and sending all the relevant data to the service station, and they (menwhile forbidden) are able to "adjust" all necessary "things" on the fly to further optimize just while the car is racing... I know, what those guys mean, of course, but no measurements? no measurements at all ? on that level? how naiv is that then ?

if you might want to read more about squares, please have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

but anyway, everybody is responsible for "his own" luck and may do what he likes... we found out, that there are quite a lot of curious things in addition which have influence on our sound, things that we cannot explain why they are this way or that way, they simply are as they are, and we have to face them, even if they are just the opposite of that what we expected, even "against" mathematical and physical laws... (one of those biggest steps in that direction was to mount from 60 to 120 chips, which took me nearly a year, to "convince" Doede to built it for me at all - against his conviction and studies...

I have told about this experience elsewhare, with 60 chips you have: 2 + 2 =  4, and this is just exactly perfect. So what more to expect if you further enlarge the amount of chips? I tell you: with the step from 60 to 120 the result was more than 4, much much more than 4, the door to "real HiFi" just opened and magic appeared... simply from frequency response nothing changed (not even with measurements), but the sound suddenly came from another universe and the jitter became reduced in an totally unexpected way and amount...

and we anew experienced exactly that really dramatically in another further step while mounting from 120 to 240 chips (my dream) on our last session... after everybody had listened to that - just for seconds - five guys immediately wanted to have a DDDAC1543 with 240 chips, me too of course (and I will get it)...

but that result was only half of the rent, so to speak, that result was only to 50% generated by the DAC... it was not just simply "done" by having "that" DDDAC or another playing... the real sublime and magic results were only reached in combination with an absolute "overdose" on power supply....

hardly anybody seemed to have fully realised that in all its details during our last session (they do not have Klaus's system that way on the long run in their ears as we have), but two of our guests from Karlsruhe who are long time users of WE15- and Klangfilm-systems and were the last to leave the session...  (we will visit them for specifically their systems during the next months to come...)





for those who are not familiar of what specifically this is all about here is some report:

http://www.inner-magazines.com/news/90/72/Klangfilm-Bionor/

...they really have good ears... they were here with us for the first time and completely unprejudiced, they never ever listened to anything within Klaus's area, and they now listened to all kinds of DDDAC combinations and power supplies that we were able to combine at all (and we only told them afterwards what had been playing), and they did no longer understand the world and were quite astonished when finding out by their own ears that Bernd's power supply with simply one deck of the DDDAC1794 was better than anything else, even Doede's own DDDAC1794 with eight decks and Sowters and everything, and better by far...

...that better, that one of them  afterwards said: "well, I have already learned last time at André's that your ´futuristic´ sources very wonderfully work together with 90 year old loudspeaker systems (i.e. vintage Western Electric 15 A and Western amps...), but now I am that massively convinced and in such a temptation that every resistance is of no longer use.. my only worry is, what do I do with all my vinlys?"

get me right: not that the other power supplies were "bad" in any way, they are absolutely top of the gear, it is simply that they just do not reach that level of "magic" that we all are looking for our whole lives, but Bernd's...

I told already, this result belongs to those phenomenons which simply are unexplainable: 5 Volt are 5 Volt, and 12 Volt are 12 Volt, but generated and stabilized with different power supplies lead to such different sorts of result in sound, that you only can shake your head because of all those differences... the result is: power matters, it really heavily matter: 5 Volt and 5 Volt behave absolutely not the same with different power supplies, and you get the most out of it with Bernd's controlled power supply...

and have a look, quite some experts have tried to "handle" that phenomenon: Doede, Jean Hiraga, Bruno Plouvier, even Mundorf (yes, the one with the silver/gold caps... see his site for all kinds of different controlled power supplies up to 3.000 €/piece...)

so the amplification is one of the biggest secrets of getting "the most" out of your DACs, and yes, we have checked Bernd's controlled power supply on some twenty or so different DACs (no, I do not name them, but they were rather expensive with leading names on the market)...

Tuyen, I told you already months ago to invest all the money that you have in multi-amping Class A amplifiers (according to Jean's data-sheets) and to make it all active, this is the best you can get with presumably lowest cost and least work to do... I saw some sort of "prototype" of yours quite some time ago, but never ever any "finish"... just read about some "hum" during the building phase, but from that what I got to know there was never ever a final solution, or was there any? then please tell me if I'm wrong..

anyway, as you are into this "DAC" now, this meanwhile should no longer be the "first" step (but the second)... with the same "amount" as for your power supplies you should care for a definitely "controlled" power supply for your DAC - not just with the minimum requirements but with a powerful "overdose" in every part...

we happened to experience al these advantages just by accident... because I wanted to get rid of my long time car and lorry batteries for the DDDAC1543 which consumes some awesome 6 Ampère and takes  about two days to get completely reloaded again...

so, one day Bernd came around the corner, having just finished a new controlled power supply for our Goto drivers, weighing some twenty kilos, and he said just for fun, we could try it out in combination with my DDDAC1543... and yes, what to say, totally speechless we both said: yes, that's it, it was that magic, right from the first moment on, and I would have "killed" him if he would have taken away that power supply... no coloration at all, no distortion, no indications that horns are playing, just pure music, as good as the source is...

and yes, that power supply turned out to be equally the "perfect" thing as well for our purposes with the DDDAC1794... well, meanwhile not only Mundorf and/or other suppliers, but Doede himself - after the plan of Bernd - and even Jean himself have tried their own versions, but in four week longtime tests just in January this year where we have been able to compare them all side by side, we found out that Bernd's is by far the best and "the" one to go...

and Bernd's power supply with Doede's eight deck (no Sowters, no small power supplies) that's it for me, and for Klaus...

not that the other power supplies are "bad" or so, no, no, not at all, they are all absolutely first rate, their only disadvantage is, that they simply do not "reach" magic and that level of real deep satisfaction like Bernd's...

the "gain" in sound is that dramatic, one has to hear it to believe...

even if I should repeat myself: after some four weeks of hard core testing with all what we have: DDDAC1543 with 60 chips (Klaus), DDDAC1543 with 120 chips (mine), DDDAC1794 with one deck, DDDAC1794 with four decks, controlled power supply from Mundorf (some 1.200 €, which is rather strong and really quite good - but far not good enough for our sources), the ones from Doede, which have been made in mind to be "small" and "affordable" for everybody, and which are absolutely superb regarding price/performance/ratio without a doubt (but are not that what  y o u , especially  y o u  are looking for, neither does the latest newly built one by Jean himself.... but Bernd's...

the result was the following: Bernd's 20 kilogram super power supply (which originally was intended to become a final controlled Class A power supply for our Goto drivers) beats everything there is, and by far... that way, that Bernd's power supply with one deck - believe it or not - is far superior than Doede' total construction with 8 decks and Sowters and everything...

and we have only one explanation for that: all the "false" things seem to be immanent within the "not perfect" squares of the Sowters (as good as they might appear - presumably most of the DIYers will not have been able to "listen" to "such" "relatively good" squares before (but they still produce overswings up and down and have not enough velocity to get it perfectly vertically, and stability to get it perfectly horizontally, and take it for "good", but this is "nothing" in comparison to "perfect" squares...

you wrote further: "He is using the custom sowter output transformers (highly recommend) over the capacitor output..." well, did you ever trust me ? if so, get rid of the Sowters and get Bernd's power supply, the "value" is roughly about the same, but you will get "the" sound that you ever have been dreaming of (although it is another question of how far you are able to bring the "generated" 500 horse powers onto the road... I told already...

not to make the Sowters bad, they are highly esteemed everywhere within DIY circles (see the ongoing discussion and tweaking progresses here):

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input.html

and they are surely the best available if there would not "be" Bernd's power supply.... and this exactly makes for us the difference between HiFi and magic... so, what are you looking for ?

by the way, next month, to be precise on April 5th, we will habe a bunch of guys of those DIYers mostly from the Netherlands here with us, especially Supersurfer who for fifteen years is developing with no less than Guido Tent on all kind of DACs, and who are quite some steps ahead of us with their Shunt regulators, Tantualum resistors and all different kind of tweaks, and be assured, they will get a big shock, some sort of that shock, of which lately J. told me: listening to your system for the first time was one of the greatest shocks in my life... I made so many mistakes... I want to have it exactly like you... I know I am four or five trains late, but I am already on the right platform...

so, do yourself a favor and get Bernd's power supply... I told him about your long time ambition and I have already asked him, and he explained that he would build one for you if you like (by the way, Bernd's profession is being qualified high voltage electrician...)

...and keep in mind, this is not a new investment, this is just a change (more or less), but it will bring you exactly that what you ever have been dreaming of, a perfect origin...
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 04:32:35 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #188 on: March 06, 2014, 09:50:01 AM »
Thanks for another detailed instalment of the current happenings over there. :)

I lost interest and gave up on attempting to re-do 'properly' those cheaply made DIY low powered class a amps.  I've moved back using low powered SET amps (el84, 6b4g and 45 tubes) because I was happy enough with their looks, design and sound.  The goto woofer i use a higher powered push pull amp (el34).

So the consensus over there is that Bernd's monster 12v power supply is the "one" in terms of powering both the older dddac1543 and also the new dddac1794 boards? What about for the USB module on the new design that needs 5v?    Were you guys still using Doede's power kit for that?

If Bernd's power supply with 1-stack and no sowters sounded better than Doede's 8-stack with sowters and his kit power supplies, did you guys try Bernd's power supply with Doede's 8 stack with sowters?! Surely that would be closer to sonic utopia? Or am I missing something?   So you guys prefer the capacitor output over the sowters?

Do you realise that by using cap output(ie. single ended), you are essentially throwing away half of the DACs balanced output energy/signal? The  sowters combine both +ve and -ve outputs and utilize fully the output signals to produce a more 'stronger' output signal.   Also, with capacitor output, the capacitor you use changes the sound completely too. I notice Doede recommends Mundorf silver/gold/oil.  They are ok. Detailed, but do not possess the tonal balance I like (a bit too clean/lean/light).   I prefer Duelund VSF copper capacitors (or Duelund CAST coppers) if you haven't already.  More fuller/natural sound (to my ears).   I'm sure the "squares" will be very similar between these caps. But the sound it makes when the signal passes through them is not.

Either way, I will get in contact with Bernd and enquire further info. Thank you kindly for that.

As for "new controlled power supply for goto drivers", what do you mean? The goto drivers don't need a power supply? Or are you guys converting them with field coils?

I sold my midhigh sg370 and s600b horn long time ago. Plan on selling the sg505tt and s200b horn soon.   Keeping the sg38wn woofer and sg16tt tweeters.  I really like them still. Especially the 50hz azurahorn designed bass horn I built for the woofers.   As a midrange driver I am playing with 8" full range Atelier Rullit field coil driver. Pairing with a big 160hz le cleach horn.     What can I say, I'm still young, I like trying new things :)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 10:18:50 AM by Tuyen »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2014, 10:26:20 AM »
When you have "mastered" the Digital to Analog Conversion stage,  look into Digital Signal Processing for crossover/time alignment of your multi-way speakers.

As your systems are all active (ie. amplifier per speaker driver), it's isn't a huge leap in terms of hardware required.   But the possible sonic benefits of removing your current 'limited' electronic crossover and  using either your computer or external DSP which has ability to time align each driver will surely bring improvements unimaginable. :)

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2014, 10:30:35 AM »


Najda DSP is what I am looking into currently to play around with.
http://www.waf-audio.com/products.php?pos=1&lang=en

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #191 on: March 06, 2014, 10:45:05 AM »

I lost interest and gave up on attempting to re-do 'properly' those cheaply made DIY low powered class a amps. 

that's a pity... when you will get used to generate that what are perfect squares, then you might want to listen to them presumably exactly and not "modified" and "equalized"... you might have difficulties to amplify perfect squares with tubes...  later on you can show me the results of your measurements...

So the consensus over there is that Bernd's monster 12v power supply is the "one" in terms of powering both the older dddac1543 and also the new dddac1794 boards? 

absolutely

What about for the USB module on the new design that needs 5v?    Were you guys still using Doede's power kit for that? 

no, Bernd's controlled power supply has two outputs, one for 12 Volt and one for 5 Volt, perfectly adjusted (and generally adjustable within the power supply itself for higher and lower levels) for the individual needs... from what I have understood there are some slight differences in voltages depending on the amount of decks... so one always has the possibility to adjust, to keep it just exactly perfect... don't underestimate this, one can clearly hear that...

If Bernd's power supply with 1-stack and no sowters sounded better than Doede's 8-stack with sowters and his kit power supplies, did you guys try Bernd's power supply with Doede's 8 stack with sowters?! Surely that would be closer to sonic utopia? Or am I missing something?

we had three DDDAC1794 for testing purposes here with us: Klaus's with one deck, mine with four decks and Doede's one with sowters (and all the different controlled power supplies)... we had several PCs running with identic configuration, i.e. windows 8, foobar, corresponding apps and so on, identical music tracks, and so we only needed to switch on Klaus's pre-amp to what configuration we ever wanted... and not only the direct comparison revealed the results, just by singular listening the differences were so listenable, immediately obvious. as clear as I described them already... lastly we tried Doede's eight decks isolated from the rest of his platform, and right, that's the way to go... there is the same effect listenable as with the DDDAC1543, and in combination with the new 5 Volt from Bernd's power supply the sound becomes absolutely sublime, exactly that way, that we ever wanted, but did not get, so far (with 24 Bit)...

and yes, go ask Bernd if he wants to help you...

all my goto drivers are driven by class A mono amps with controlled power supply... Klaus is on the way to mount to these... and that what I have in use for my DDDACs now was developed by Bernd as a controlled power amp for the goto drivers...

just a recommendation: to get your sound on an "equal" level I would recommend you to switch to all-Goto drivers... don't underestimate the synergy potential when doing so, your sound will reach another level of coherence and naturality... when you drive a car, do you prefer to have four different car tyres or better one ?

I'm still young, I like trying new things :)

o.k., I understand, and that makes fun, real fun... but where do you want to go? what is your aim ?

« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 10:47:49 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #192 on: March 06, 2014, 11:02:50 AM »
Hi Reinhard,

By the way, I have been playing with various operating systems and media players in the past year or so with a few friends.

Are you guys using Windows Server 2012 R2 ?    If not, go ahead and try it. It  will improve sound quality  over Windows 7 or 8.

Some info to read: http://www.highend-audiopc.com/PDF/audiophile_optimizer_setup_guide.pdf


We have also been playing with a Linux based operating system/media player  called Daphile.   http://www.daphile.com/    Extremely cool and is freeware.

Next experiment are linear power supplies for your computers.   :)

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2014, 11:10:03 AM »
My aim in this hobby is to try and explore (as many as possible) various bits and pieces that interests me.  Is that a fair aim?

As I don't believe there are any specific 'ultimate' end paths to take in this hobby, I don't feel forced to take things so seriously, which I find is quite refreshing.

Less serious = less stress = less care = less competitive = more enjoyable = more beer = more new music = more fun.

I assume it differs quite greatly to yours :)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 12:54:19 PM by Tuyen »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #194 on: March 06, 2014, 02:27:41 PM »
Reinhard, will be interesting when Stefan (Supersurfer) and the other NL guys come visit.   Indeed I look forward to reading the outcomes from the visit, as Stefan has been tweaking a bit more than most other DDDAC users.     He reports improvements in speed/dynamics with replacement of the monolithic regulators and electrolytic caps that supply power to the dac chip  with Guido's shunt regulators.  His recommendation is that 1 stack with shunt regulation sounds better than standard 4 stack with stock regulation!

Does it sometimes make you wonder the level of importance you put focus on with achieving 'perfect squares' on your components (eg. the output from the DDDAC + your class A power amps),  when basic tweaks to the dac  (eg. different output caps, IV resistors, dedicated regulators) can quite dramatically affect/change the sound?  Would these 'perfect squares' show the differences?   Imagine all the hundreds of individual components in your preamp/poweramps/crossover/speaker cables/interconnects/computers  that can also all greatly affect the system's sound?   

I think the concept of attaining a 'well measuring DAC + amps' is a good starting base to building a good system,  but I truly believe there is a ALOT more to it for getting great sounding system.   I mean, if you guys were serious about measurements (eg. perfect squares) being the 'right' way for perfect sound,  shouldn't you guys focus on controlling the 4/5-way system with DSP (either through computer since you are already using it as a source, or externally)?   How else would be able to time/phase align your system without it (and as far as I am aware, they are quite critical for a correctly measured system) ?


Anyways, below an interesting post he made regarding modification of jensen capacitors.

Regarding output capacitors consider Jensen copper foil in oil. These come in two tastes: with aluminium cover and with paper cover. The latter one sounds better but is more expensive.

I have experiemted years ago with taking off the shrinkfoil of electrolytics and caps, this brings an audible improvement. This has to do with the foil being static and that influences the magnetic field of the capacitor, this magnetic field is generated by the AC currents running through a capacitor. If the magnetic field is influenced, it will also influence the currents; thus losing microdynamics.

The aluminum cover also has a similar effect. If you saw off this cover the sound will be MUCH better!
The oldest paper in oil capacitors that I have stripped are now around 8 years old and still measure and sound fantastic.

So this is my little "geheimtip"

Jensen has also discovered this, hence their more expensive line of caps with paper cover. Don't let them fool you.................

Here are some pictures:
-you can see the inside of the Jensen copper foil capacitors, some paper around and wooden covers.
-the complete arrangement with Alix board and custom short USB cable.
-The shunt regulators from Tentlabs for 8V and 3,3V, I had to remove some capacitors and the regulators. You can leave out the Wima because there is also one on the shunt. I still have to remove the electrolytics that are directly on the pins of the dac chip (the wima's will stay); this will give more speed/dynamics.

Next will be to mount the Sowters and two extra dac boards.



Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #195 on: March 06, 2014, 10:34:23 PM »
As your systems are all active (ie. amplifier per speaker driver), it's isn't a huge leap in terms of hardware required.   But the possible sonic benefits of removing your current 'limited' electronic crossover and  using either your computer or external DSP which has ability to time align each driver will surely bring improvements unimaginable. :)
Applauding your post Tuyen.   Very pleased to see the bolded bit.    Whether that is dsp, or via analog active crossovers with time/phase adjustment,  the point is time alignment is an important setup step. Definitely.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #196 on: March 06, 2014, 11:44:38 PM »
"...will be interesting when Stefan (Supersurfer) and the other NL guys come visit.   Indeed I look forward to reading the outcomes from the visit, as Stefan has been tweaking a bit more than most other DDDAC users.     He reports improvements in speed/dynamics with replacement of the monolithic regulators and electrolytic caps that supply power to the dac chip  with Guido's shunt regulators.  His recommendation is that 1 stack with shunt regulation sounds better than standard 4 stack with stock regulation!"

yes, I am very aware of Stefan's progresses, to me they have been for quite some time that big and that interesting that I had invited him already to our last session here in february, but he wasn't able to come because of his son's 10th birthday (which of course has priority)... so we rather quickly arranged another date because he was so interested in having a listen at all...
and yes, as it seems, this guy (and others) are far ahead of us regarding this specific matter...

and I am very glad, that they live "around the corner" so to speak, just two or three hours away by car, and that we can meet so quickly and immediately exchange and learn from each other... and not only have fun, but "serious" fun together...

Doede told me already that he is long time aware of these shunts and that he personally will take care for that phenomenon, but because of the complexity of things that happen altogether at once on one single shunt (there are other shunts from other suppliers as well, not only from Tent-labs, as to be read on the DIY-site), he wants to develop a "more advanced" platform from which every single influence on a shunt (+ and -) at every single step, which at the moment all together perform as a unit, is switchable, adjustable and measurable to see "exactly" what happens technically and how these influences will "please" our ears or not when switching from one single influence to another, to and fro...

...his impression at the moment is that perhaps not all things that are performing on a shunt - although may be "good" for other purposes -  possibly are "not all good" for the performance on his decks of his DDDAC1794, he wants to try it out that way that I esteem the most: the scientific way... according to his own words on DIY he has planned this for coming may... and of course we are very urgently waiting for these results...

"Does it sometimes make you wonder the level of importance you put focus on with achieving 'perfect squares' on your components (eg. the output from the DDDAC + your class A power amps)..."

no, no, no, not at all...  "perfect squares" are the quintessence of all my/our researches here during the last 40 years and by far the best (basic) that could ever happen in my/our HiFi-lifes... and they seem to be exactly that what external listeners realise and admire the most... why ? because perfect squares elsewhere are "not offered" and the listeners immediately and instinctively miss them while not really "knowing" but just wondering what precisely they are missing...

and after more than twenty years of research in detail I am able to amplify those squares just exactly perfect with all my amps and (nearly) reproduce them (all) with my drivers... and it clearly shows..

the only "thing" was, that that what has always been "lacking" so far were exactly these perfect squares right in the beginning, in the origin, in the "revivaling-process" of the "tinned" music...

...although we meanwhile have to differ: the DDDACs being able to "deliver" perfect squares and nowadays Bernd's monster power supply to "generate" them within this joint-venture...

everything else that we - so far - listened to, only delivers "half" of that what the DDDACs in other combinations are capable of...

..and in the beginning of the 19seventies, it was no less than Jean Hiraga who specifically directed us to "perfect squares" and pointed them out (they of course never ever were at that time) and showed them within his reports via pictures for every unit tested, the best out there at the time (and he always "knew" why he did that)...

and we have to deeply thank him for exactly all his "discoveries" and presenting them to the public ... he delivered the basics for us through all the years, and he made us able at all to "select" all the best "circuits" and "ingredients" out of all these tests and reports and  to "combine" them for our needs to that what we have today...

... and as a result we happen to finally have perfect squares, and it was Jean himself loudly screaming out when first listening to exactky these "perfect squares" here with me, but never got them in his tested industry products... personally I had the impression that one of his life's time dreams finally had come true...

what do you think might have been the reason for Jean to acquire your DDDAC1543 with 120 chips ? and to pay a good price as you told ?

because this is "the only" unit to reproduce that what was his aim: "Playing perfectly the “sparkling noise of SP records”"

...have a look at his presentation of "one" perfect square at 1.000 cycles with your former DDDAC1543 with 120 chips on Jean's presentation in Berlin...

http://www.triodefestival.net/uploads/images_uploads/Jean_Hiraga_ETF2013.pdf

he is (proudly) showing these results regarding perfect squares in his report for that event (link above)...

... this is the summit, the most that a physician/scientist/electronics engineer can reach in his life (unfortunately it is still not yet perfectly adjusted - as we have personally heard )...

and with my modest knowledge I owe Jean, from whom we participated constantly during the last forty years, to get the most out of the actual developments and I will gladly help him to "adjust" all the necessary things to reach that "perfection" that he was longing for during his whole life - the same way as I told you... one thing is for sure, as Jean told me, he will make use of my offer...

your aim is "...to try and explore (as many as possible) various bits and pieces..."

same with us, but we want to come to a certain "solution" that way that the illusion of reproducing music is so that we are no longer "disturbed" when listening... we want to have a "perfect" reproduction of no matter what "conserved" music

"...there is a ALOT more to it for getting great sounding system..."

right, but at the moment I still do not know what you understand being a "great" sounding system... an example please...

"...focus on controlling the 4/5-way system with DSP..."

o.k., o.k., good idea, you are ahead of us... we have that in mind for years, but as is, even for us, Rome is not built in a day...

fact is, that Mr. Mundorf personally will make the necessary scientific measurements here at Klaus's regarding the sound within Klaus's room and to explore especially the necessity and the extent for time alignment presumably at the end of this month after the fair where he is obliged...

we do not possess these extremely expensive units to measure precisely "time alignment", by the way, this is a "perfect" example where the own ears are not sufficient to define what exactly is happening, that what's all about...  and as we are aware of that, we did not try by "tweaking" manually... (although I did time alignment within my system - adjusted "by eye"...)

but when the measurements are done we will see further, and yes, we even will try out computer based alignment, but regarding that matter personally I am very sceptical, everything exept "storing" within digital is some sort of "suspicious" to me in audio...

as you already mentioned all things withing digital area, within Os and 1s, have influence on our sound, and as you claimed precisely, the Windows 12 R2 server "will improve sound quality over Windows 7 or 8"...

hey, what is that? I "know" (i.e. I have a deep feeling) that it is like that, but how does that happen at all, all within 0s and 1s ? at the moment we still have to face that it is like that - without explanation why...

...and within this context to switch to electronic time alighment ? No, I really don't think so, the idea is good, without a doubt, but the transformation into the system of Os and 1s, which at least at the moment are not "controllable", that hardly will be a "solution" for us... so, from all my personal experiences: less influence on the sound nearly always has brought "more" to it...

"How else would be able to time/phase align your system without it (and as far as I am aware, they are quite critical for a correctly measured system) ?"

you are right, presumably we will have to make compromises, and we will have to live with them..

...but if compormises, the less seems the better...

« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 05:35:26 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #197 on: March 07, 2014, 10:47:29 AM »
...and you know the difference between "believing" and "knowing"... those who know "nothing" always have to "believe"... and you will always have to make your own experiences...  and this is not easy, this is work...

I'll chime in on this, and offer my own point of view (remember, this is my personal opinion, I don't present it as fact).    IMV, there is "absolute truth" and then there is "belief".   In my experience, there is nothing in between.   You say you've done the necessary listening tests to be certain that what you know is correct,   but this is not "absolute truth". 
   This is where measurements come into play.  I don't sit in the camp that measurements are not necessary,  IMV measurements are a useful yardstick for certain things.   And they can certainly be used as supportive "evidence".    So, if you wish to present something as an "absolute truth" then you need to provide supporting evidence and real measurements.   
   If you cant provide supporting evidence,  then I am afraid what you are presenting are "beliefs" .   And there is nothing wrong with that.   I am very happy and interested to read your beliefs, and your posts.   The language is very colourful, and entertaining,  and I enjoy reading them.   Make no mistake, I sincerely admire your passion.
   

Read again some of your own words, which are definitely a "belief" system that you are sharing with us.


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I tell you: with the step from 60 to 120 the result was more than 4, much much more than 4, the door to "real HiFi" just opened and magic appeared... simply from frequency response nothing changed (not even with measurements), but the sound suddenly came from another universe and the jitter became reduced in an totally unexpected way and amount...
I believe, I believe.

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but that result was only half of the rent, so to speak, that result was only to 50% generated by the DAC... it was not just simply "done" by having "that" DDDAC or another playing... the real sublime and magic results were only reached in combination with an absolute "overdose" on power supply....

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I told already, this result belongs to those phenomenons which simply are unexplainable: 5 Volt are 5 Volt, and 12 Volt are 12 Volt, but generated and stabilized with different power supplies lead to such different sorts of result in sound, that you only can shake your head because of all those differences...

There's more and more and more,  I don't need to labour the point.   But what is the point?    You've done the testing and listening, and you have the knowledge to be confident in what you say.   But,,,,  it is still a "belief" system you are sharing with us.     We should not be criticised for having our own beliefs,  and likewise,  I will not criticise your beliefs.   

I believe you.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 12:04:43 PM by ozmillsy »
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #198 on: March 07, 2014, 11:24:55 AM »
That's a really good reply Oz.  I beleive therefore I am.  ;)
V
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #199 on: March 07, 2014, 12:02:26 PM »
I beleive therefore I am.  ;)
V

:)   some say that is the secret to success.    8)
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.