Author Topic: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192  (Read 174866 times)

Offline kajak12

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #200 on: March 07, 2014, 08:51:30 PM »
that's a pity... when you will get used to generate that what are perfect squares, then you might want to listen to them presumably exactly and not "modified" and "equalized"... you might have difficulties to amplify perfect squares with tubes...  later on you can show me the results of your measurements...


Lol perfect squares you might have trouble getting ss amps to sound like music
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #201 on: March 08, 2014, 01:07:39 AM »
please, don't take my nonsense (believes) that seriously... just take it as some sort of "war report"...

there are so many things unexplored in HiFi, and especially within the digital area, that we here practically learn "more" from day to day, and as it comes out, to our ears mostly to the better...

but what is really "new" to us, is - while exploring and researching - the absolutely unexpected addition to face and to get used to and to understand (if possible) and to handle "mathematically-physically impossible-" and "nonsense"-phenomenons within the Os and 1s-area which have (so far uncontrolled) influence on our sound...

it is not at all my intention to generate, spread and/or bother anybody with my "personal belief", but I have to face exactly these facts just as they are, and just like everybody else...

"Informations are prerequisite for qualified decisions",  so, if one makes use of them to take advantage of, is strictly personally and up to anybody, but anyway, being "informed" is much better than not being informed with the need to believe, if one is interested...

and it's further up to you to take "quoted" results of qualified persons with a scientific education as physician and/or electronics engineer as a "belief" or not, but at least this opens the possibilities for you, if you should want to, to try out certain things for your own purpose, and I always will be glad to "offer" our results and to get to know the ones from others...

regarding belief, to illustrate precisely what I mean, here is an example, someone on the DIY-site wrote:

"Come on - do people really believe that data can be delivered very good or not so good through an USB data cable?? That is complete nonsense in my world.

Either they come through the cable intact, or they dont. "

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-90.html

and the response from Doede was:

"I thought the same till I really compared.  Has mostly to do with grounding I believe"

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-91.html

as I happened to be part of exactly that specific experience this, for me, is not a "belief" but a result, no matter what caused it... and as hardly anybody can tell us about these phenomenons, we, wherever we can, try it out for ourselves just not to believe but to establish...

...

and when it is written like that, then I have to "believe" at first sight, but in a second step I try to "verify" for myself resp. ourselves (because I am not alone, I am mostly in a "group"), and so I invited that guy to share and show and make us listen to his (presumably fantastic) results with the shunt regulators, Tantalums and so on...:

"Hoi Doede,

This is something that has been tested and measured by Guido Tent.
We have done this before on other dac units.
I have not done A-B testing on this detail.
It makes sense though; the sunt regulator is much faster than an electrolytic.
The shunt acts as a very fast capacitor with high bandwith and large current capability; that is a combination you cannot find in capacitors.
So you do not need the capacitors any more, they only give more work to the shunts with their interaction.
In comparison to a series regulator the shunt does not only source current, it will also sink current. That makes the power lines much more silent. Imagine all the current that is bounced back from a consumer when the impedance rises, this current will stay on the power lines and can dissapear only in heat........
Regarding the wima at the dac pins and the one on the shunt: yes it is better not to use two wimas and mount the shunt directly at the dac pins. But as for this design the shunts do have some distance from the dac so it is better to keep the extra wima..."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-103.html

...

or other things, where we came from an idea/belief/presumption or a simple wish to try something out to concrete results when testing practically

"...this told us again, that BIG power supplies do make a difference...

also, that paralleling DAC chips seems to have no limit..."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-108.html

so, this clearly shows that even the professionals have to experiment and listen for themselves, even if they have to overcome with what they have studied and have to face to try out practically...

...

most of that what I read on the DIY-sites I have to "believe", and in some cases we will be able to "verify" the results for ourselves (or not)

well, on April 5th we will see/hear what it is all about regarding specifically that topic with all those shunts and Tantalums, and if their results and our "believes" come true...

presenting and discussing all the results of all DIYers in the net all around the globe to me is one of the best things that could ever happen in our time...

...but I learn to get the results "neutral" it might perhaps be "better" to leave future reports then to our guests...

aaahhh, lastly there is some good news, a "fact", not a belief:

"384kHz with waveIO Runs without Problems on the dddac..."

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-104.html

« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 09:25:29 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #202 on: March 08, 2014, 02:04:47 AM »
Lol perfect squares you might have trouble getting ss amps to sound like music

hmmmhh, just last week we had carneval over here, for a good week or so... and I happened to listen to about 100 street bands walking by within all the different carneval processions...

guess, where I stood during most of the time in order to further "educate" my ears, some three till ten meters in distance...

and I do not know how close you come within your reproduction, but we are not that far away...

by the way, "perfect squares" directly "shine through" when using tubes, I always hear this when listening for example Doede's own tube amplified system...

but I hear as well what is all "missing" to my ears...



« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 02:13:32 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #203 on: March 08, 2014, 02:13:25 AM »
rhlauranna,  Listening to real unamplified music is the best way to tune a system, When you cannot tell the difference you know you have made it. well done.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #204 on: March 08, 2014, 07:25:27 AM »
That's cool Reinhard,  I guess my point is that knowledge and belief go hand in hand.     Knowledge is not fact without evidence.     But I am not saying you have to have proof, not at all.   It's hard work to generate evidence, we don't need to, if we trust our ears (many don't).

So, try not to be too critical of those who believe,  that covers about 99% of audio enthusiasts.  :)
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #205 on: March 11, 2014, 06:45:10 AM »
thank you for your requests...

finally I managed to get some pixes of Bernd's controlled power supply for 12 Volt and 5 Volt, and especially the section with the 5 Volt controlled deck...

so, here they are, but please don't ask me for technical details, if you should be in need for these, feel free to ask Bernd directly, he surely will take care for your needs...















unfortunately on my screen the pixes, although strongly "reduced" do not fit into the given frames that I see here, so I add them as "tinies" for you to see "better"...




« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 06:59:05 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #206 on: March 11, 2014, 07:23:11 AM »
Hi Reinhard, can you please ask if he received my email?  I sent him one the day you first posted about it, but no reply so far.

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #207 on: March 11, 2014, 10:53:01 PM »
Hi Reinhard, can you please ask if he received my email?  I sent him one the day you first posted about it, but no reply so far.

Hi Tuyen,

just talked to Bernd by phone (neither I got an answer via mail) and he excuses for his delay... at the moment he is struggeling with some virus in his PC, and to avoid further damage he had to shut it down for a while, but as soon this is done, he will of course answer your questions immediately...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:44:27 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #208 on: March 20, 2014, 10:43:21 PM »
as there some people "really" seem to be into "DACs", please allow me to draw your attention onto some things that might "generally" be of interest when planning/constructing/building/testing/listening to whatsoever DACs...

I am really very highly impressed and amazed about what certain DIY come up with, things that I am simply not aware of and which I even cannot think of, but which I find very well worth to be shown to those who are able to, to see, to get to know, and perhaps make personal/general use of it for own purposes...

to indicate what I mean let me hint you (once again) onto "Supersurfer" from the DIY-er site, just not to "confuse" anybody, but hopefully to "enlarge" the own horizon for DIY-ambitions and -purposes:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-132.html

this guy seems to be that far ahead (at least here with us) that it seems very well worth to present his ideas (which by far are not all costly) and to have a closer "look" with what results they are connected in detail...

so please, have a look here:







I'm especially "moved" with all those (different kinds of) shunt regulators which really leave the impression "to bring things forward", I don't know yet, but all those people who make use of them cannot be "wrong" ?

...so, I have to admit that I am very very glad that this guy with some friends of his (The Dutch Connection) will be here with us in about two weeks to test all these things out...

...and if you should be interested in what is going on further (perhaps to get ideas for your own purposes) you might want to have a look on what Doede is going to test out in the near future...

enjoy...

« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:51:47 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #209 on: March 20, 2014, 11:06:13 PM »
Stefan is really into it.  I'm very curious when you guys get the compare it to one of Doede's stock 8 stack. Also with Bernd's power supply.

All those shunt regulators is a lot of messing around to get them in. Not to mention the cost Guido charges, it is not a cheap exercise!

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #210 on: March 20, 2014, 11:37:27 PM »
Stefan is really into it.  I'm very curious when you guys get the compare it to one of Doede's stock 8 stack. Also with Bernd's power supply.

All those shunt regulators is a lot of messing around to get them in. Not to mention the cost Guido charges, it is not a cheap exercise!


Doede is very busy, he is in France and England at the moment and of course he would have very much "liked" to join the testing but it will not be possible for him to join the meeting, but later on...

well, I am the final judge only for myself, and I am not a preacher for others, but I told you already that Bernd's controlled power supply is the "absolute monster" and definitely "the" one to go, "enhencing" the sound by some 50% just in an unexpectable way and level..

this is "the" controlled power supply that has "won" the battle by far (one of the french guys said: "beaucoup plus de matière") "against" all those other power supplies having been tested side by side at our last session here (normal car batteries, big lorry batteries, different Mundorfs, Doede's own ones incl. Sowters, the new power supply by Jean)

unfortunately we will not have 8 stacks in a fortnight, but the testing will be o.k. because we have not only one deck of 1794 but twice four decks, the tweaked one from Stefan and my "virgin" one...

and the cost ? yes, you are right, but it really is rather small in comparison to be able at all to get that what is devlivered by Doede's DACs "onto the road"...

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #211 on: March 21, 2014, 05:41:37 PM »
Taken from the wigwam.

"I had the pleasure of having David,Juanacho, visit my house last night. The main aim of the evening was to compare his standard two board DDDAC with my shunt reg two board DDDC.
There were a couple of things to consider that would never make it a direct and fair comparison. The first of these being, the caps on the output of Davids DDDAC were literally brand new and never used, secondly Davids DDDAC was fitted with Audio Note resistors which are known to slightly smooth out the sound removing a slight edge in musical presentation of the standard resistors.
After a good old chin wag and a close comparrison of the two DDDACs we played a variety of music through my DDDAC first as it was already wired into my system. All sounded good and as expected. After 20-30 minutes and a glass of wine we popped in Davids DDDAC. Immediately the sound was a little shut in and somewhat slower. Again this could be due to the brand new caps. The mids were however, a little smoother and even which I enjoyed which is what the Audio Note resistors are known to offer.
I was just thinking about changing DDDACs again to my DAC to make a thorough comparison when my amp decided to glow red and blow up in a spectacular fashion which halted things.
It was good company and good wine and I also learned a thing or two about Davids knowledable approach to DIY"

Offline kajak12

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #212 on: March 21, 2014, 07:11:46 PM »
Who is david? New diy nut
still discovering the link between electronics and audio reproduction.so much to learn and so little time

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #213 on: March 22, 2014, 09:39:01 AM »
Some guy on hifiwigwam forum. His nick on there is Juancho.

Thread link: www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?88548-Very-good-sounding-Dac-kit

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #214 on: March 22, 2014, 10:20:44 AM »
If these guys can hear the difference between resistors,   why are they still using electrolytics everywhere in their dacs?   ???  :-\   :-X
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #215 on: March 22, 2014, 11:21:04 AM »
I guess the designer (Doede) believes they are needed (they being relateively high value, so polyprop/oil/films are out of the question), for the design to operate up to spec? 

I personally don't see electrolytic as being the root of all evil. Especially when they are not directly in the signal path (as the case for the DDDAC).  But they do still impart some effect to the performance of the DAC, thus choosing 'audiophile grade' caps as part of the kit :)

Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see. 

Thoughts?

« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 11:25:58 AM by Tuyen »

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #216 on: March 22, 2014, 01:40:56 PM »

Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see. 

Thoughts?
This is true, I often imagine what an R2Rs will sound like, with them removed. I have eliminated many electrolytic capacitors, via running the R2R valve output stage. But they are an often necessary evil.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #217 on: March 22, 2014, 09:13:43 PM »
Even R2R machines are littered with electrolytics everywhere from what I can see. 

Thoughts?
Fair point.   There is soooo much raw goodness delivered by tape,  it sounds great despite all the electrolytics.

But they say R2R is even more amazing when they're ALL bypassed,  with the signal taken direct off the heads.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #218 on: April 05, 2014, 06:36:25 AM »
well, things like this are totally new to me:

...but as Supersurfer uses exactly this "method" for his DDDAC1794 - which I will listen to tomorrow - I found it for ambitious DIYer absolutely necessary to link...

http://studiozey.com/woodencapacitor/index.html

for the corresponding pixes see reply 168


Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #219 on: April 06, 2014, 11:35:44 PM »
I'm sorry, but after some 15 or so hours of really most intensive hard core testing and listening I still have not yet "recovered" from the last session, but it all was superb fun, the last guests from England left at some 3 o'clock in the morning, but here is already a report from Supersurfer, bringing the results of the session already to the point quick like a flash of lightning, so if you might want to read this, go ahead and enjoy:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-147.html

and some pictures:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-148.html
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:47:14 AM by rhlauranna »