Author Topic: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192  (Read 174857 times)

Offline vitavoxdude

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #340 on: January 05, 2015, 10:16:00 PM »
Yes good call, 50/50 chips and power supply - after all, all audio is a modulated power supply so get this right and you are a long way to getting everything sounding good.

Somehow I don't think Chanh will expose his dac to a trip to Paris and back as the drop it and scarper merchants would do their worst, fine for caps and resistors but a whole dac without case?????
We all like different things so lets all agree to disagree and if any common ground is found then worship it.  Mine is the KD hence being present on this forum.

Offline Chanh

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #341 on: January 06, 2015, 02:39:10 AM »
Hi R,

Happy to send my version of DDDAC over for your gtg once I am able to house it proper. Who knows I might bring myself there too? ;)

Btw, Pin20 CCS and few other things I need finalised. Should be able to get tweaked raw unregulated PS up and running with 4-poles AG caps soon.

Chanh

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #342 on: January 06, 2015, 06:43:53 AM »
Hi R,

Happy to send my version of DDDAC over for your gtg once I am able to house it proper. Who knows I might bring myself there too? ;)

Btw, Pin20 CCS and few other things I need finalised. Should be able to get tweaked raw unregulated PS up and running with 4-poles AG caps soon.

Chanh

Hi Chanh,

that would be very generous of you... well, at the moment nothing is fix, we just circle around the month of june to let that happen... in any case Doede and Jean have to be part of it, we need to have the experts with us, because there is always something to measure, to solder, to control and so on...

if you would like to come personally - that would be the best - you are of course heartily invited...
it would be utmost fun if supersurfer, dwjames and others could come as well (for them it is "only" some 4-6 hours...) and me dreaming of Jean making a report about all that, showing the industry what is really going on..., but I cannot promise
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:40:28 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #343 on: January 06, 2015, 08:05:17 AM »
Sounds like a Killer GTG in Paris !!!

Chanh, you need to get Flemo to make you a sexy case out of Australian wood, and then give them something to drool over, as your unit sits proudly in the DDD lineup. :)

Would be an awesome event, I'm sure.
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #344 on: January 06, 2015, 04:12:13 PM »
Reinhard, is Jean still using the 120chip DDDAC1543MK2 I sold to him?

How do you personally find your DDDAC1543MK2 differs sonic-wise to the newer DDDAC1794 NOS design? 

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #345 on: January 07, 2015, 12:07:52 AM »
Reinhard, is Jean still using the 120chip DDDAC1543MK2 I sold to him?

How do you personally find your DDDAC1543MK2 differs sonic-wise to the newer DDDAC1794 NOS design?

Hi Tuyen,

you ask two „simple“ questions and it causes an essay to reply... let me try…

Yes, of course, after several times of listening here with us over the last couple of years Jean was able not only to listen to but to develop some sort of getting “used to” the sound of Klaus’s and my system. If you are not used to Formula I, you presumably will not realize that much some tweaking here and there). Not that the frequencies are “different” to those of other systems, the way they are reproduced and “put together” are simply different and reach another (let me say: more natural, lesser and lesser and yes, even still much more lesser disturbing) level…

So, when this was “done” Jean began to try to “torture” us and our systems with his own reference recordings, dynamic range level reaching up to 20 (!) on CD (!!!)…. (Mauricio Kagel 7 - Nah und Fern (1995) - 01 Nah und Fern

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/02/jean-hiragas-disks-dept-mauricio-kagels.html

Ondekosa - Fujiyama (1997) 03 Fujiyama (XRCD (what a bass!),

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2012/05/jean-hiraga-sensei-san.html

Shinichi Yuize - Japan Koto Classics (2008) - 01 - Zangetsu (Lingering Moonlight)



this creating the illusion of Japanese cherry flower celebration in your room, you know, just a single instrument, the classic Koto, filling out the whole room with single waves: wow!...

...his digital glasmaster of the Beatles (aahh, no, not only another sound, another dimension…. presumably we all want to listen to The Beatles this way… but they still don’t give it to us…)

And yes, of course, Jean is not only “still using” his DDDAC1543MK2 with 120 chips (like me), it was the listening experience here with me and Bernd’s controlled power supply that made him want to get that, exactly that… but he had to learn – like me – that it is not simply done with connecting a DAC like this with any power supply…. This was for me as well one of the biggest surprises in amelioration in HiFi to ever come across… all the DDDACs are really fantastic, no doubt about it, but with a really “suiting” power supply for 12 Volt and 5 Volt, the music is not only “good”, or “very good” or even “sublime”, it simply reaches magic…

I told already several times elsewhere here on the site, for example, #187:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,842.msg17536.html#msg17536

or over at Stefano’s…

anyway, when starting Jean still was convinced – like us several years ago – that the clean power supply from a battery would bring the most out of our DACs, and so Jean brought “ultra” batteries like this



he had them in use for his presentations on the HiFi fair in Tokyo and elsewhere in Japan – where the current is 100 Volt and not 220 Volt like here in Europe

We were used to large lorry batteries with some thirty, forty kg weight each, and this was good, the background in sound was quiet, but from our today point of view did not match the difference between absolutely superb and “just right”…

I cannot repeat all that I have already written elsewhere, but regarding the different developments regarding digital stream and power supplies you might want to search on this site and/or re-read for example:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/06/digital-skyrocketing.html

http://twogoodears.blogspot.it/2014/01/a-new-reinhard-huttenburgs-review.html

Not only Jean was immediately convinced with the “other” quality in combination, and so several months later he totally quiet brought a self built power supply for his (your former) DDDAC1543 with him and didn’t say a word, but I could read in his face what he was thinking of….)

Well, supersurfer claimed a few months ago that the “dutch front” meanwhile has developed a power supply that is even better than Bernd’s… well I have yet to hear this – as well as all the other tweakings… these alone are reason enough to have another meeting… but in the meantime there have come out so many others that I am rather loosing track…

I like them very much, these tweakings, but generally I have my “problems” with – as good as they might be – ameliorations that have not yet “settled down”, like burning in and so on (not only new DAC-boards but as well power supplies and waveIO and whatever…  on the last meeting in april these things were all brand new and might have led to some sort of too quick conclusions here and there…

and secondly when more than one amelioration are working together in a field that I am not at all used to… so, I am rather cautious when describing results before they are not that reliable.., (you understand what I mean, that is not to make the different results in ameliorating the sound “smaller” in any way…

…so the “real” and “assured” things regarding the DDDACs and the different power supplies were revealed to us during January till march and may till june last year, when we nearly had all these things here with us for hard core testing and listening to and fro and backward and forward… and so we found out about the controlled power supply with the DDDACs…) … I wrote about these experiences already here on the site and over at Stefano’s…

One of the typical long time won reaction was that battery power reveals the most and the cleanest sound of all… and so Jean and others thought: hey, a power supply, that’s our domain, that’s rather easy, we do that by ourselves… and came out with own versions with power supplies… so we had the different battaries, Jean’s power supply, Doede’s power supplies and Bernd’s side by side, not to forget the professional one from Mundorf…

You might want to have another look here, #169:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,842.160.html

not to make anything bad let alone “enemies”, everyone is responsible for his own luck, but personally I am not convinced with the so much all around praised Sowters… and this result makes me “doubt” a little regarding all the other “ameliorations”, so nothing appears more necessary than a testing out side by side with more than my only ears….

The basics are clear, but the final race in tweaking is not yet done… anyway, both DDDACs is that what we are looking for, and I can hardly describe the “aaahhhs” and “ooohs” when we lately switched from 120 chips to 240 chips, and Jean was the first to scream out loudly… and he is a very polite and modest and reserved man… but everybody knows when dreams come true one jumps out of his suit…

Let me quote Doede himself:

#126

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php/topic,842.120.html

and add: DDDAC1743 with 240 chips is the best CD-repro I ever heard, but to remain fair, the ultimate DDDAC1794 is not yet finally constructed, but I can honestly say this is the best repro for 24 bits that I have heard, and I have the feeling that this DDDDAC1794 may reach the level of the DDDAC1743 for 16 bit when it is “fulfilled”… so, the whole development-process in both camps remains more than exiting…. the ameliorations during last year let me presume this… then one will “need” only one DAC, but at the moment, I’m more than glad to have both…

meanwhile, the other day someone asked me, how I would “measure” the quality of our reproduction with these DACs…. well, a picture tells more than 1.000 words


(Bruno, neighbor and co-developer of Jean…)


P.S. By the way - I cannot find it at the moment, but the link must be here on the site - Jean, in November 2013 in Berlin used his DDDAC1543 with his own power supply to demonstrate the reproduction of scratching of 78 shellac records, a long time wish and goal which was to reach - and now seems to have been reached (perhaps somone can help me find that file? thanks)



« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 09:33:53 AM by rhlauranna »

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #346 on: February 09, 2015, 02:58:49 AM »
well, I talked already quite a lot about the DDDAC1794, but please, just don't let me ever tell my own nonsense...

let me quote you Supersurfer from the DIY-site here:

# 3298

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/224108-nos-192-24-dac-pcm1794-waveio-usb-input-393.html

"This dac beats any vinyl player!

Although I do not worship specifications, just compare the dac specs with that of a prime MC or MM element. Just look at the dynamic range and channel separation. Who are the vinyl guys kidding to think this would yield to higher resolution than the best digital rigs..........
And then the rumble of the platter drive, or the way the data is getting more compressed when raching the center of the record, or the dust in the grooves, or bad RIAA correction............. I can go on and on and on........"

I esteem Stefan very much, he is a very nice guy, and very competent in DIYing and able to discuss with Doede on the same level, and I had already the pleasure to listen to his developments last April...

well, to make it simple: he is quite a lot ahead of us regarding that specific matter...


Offline gamve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #347 on: February 09, 2015, 02:39:05 PM »
"This dac beats any vinyl player!

This is a big statement, Don't get too carried away. What is the next step? "This DAC sounds better than the mastertape"?

These sorts of comments are not helpful and should be left to sales marketing departments where they belong.

Offline ochremoon

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #348 on: February 09, 2015, 04:05:06 PM »
My BS meter is off the scale now...

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #349 on: February 09, 2015, 04:30:58 PM »
I find that some CDs on the right CD player can sound as good or better than the same on vinyl but it is so dependant on the pressing. Most CD generally sound like sh!t, that is the problem.

Offline Tuyen

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #350 on: February 09, 2015, 05:22:23 PM »
Quite a silly comment to make indeed.

Everyone with real experience between the various formats knows that the mastering/pressing quality of the recording is the single most critical factor with regards to playback performance/quality on any half decent music system.   

OK the above is just my opinion.   I'm sure there are guys out there who reckon vinyl always sounds better. No buts!   (Even though the original master is recorded and mastered completely in the digital domain which is then pressed onto vinyl and released as a limited edition and sold at a premium price!)  ;D

Best bet is to have the ability and enjoy all formats on your system.   Don't limit yourself.  It's not healthy!       

I currently have a basic $500 turntable setup now (after down grading from a ~$7000 setup)  and am actually more content  than ever!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 05:30:57 PM by Tuyen »

Offline Jehuty

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #351 on: February 09, 2015, 07:23:43 PM »
I currently have a basic $500 turntable setup now (after down grading from a ~$7000 setup)  and am actually more content  than ever!

Now I really want to know your TT setup Tuyen, I've been looking around but they are so expensive!
Not all that matters can be measured, not all that can be measured matters.

Offline Chanh

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #352 on: February 09, 2015, 07:37:33 PM »
"This dac beats any vinyl player!"
Interesting comments from Stefan! Abit out of character though?

Over the weekend, I happened to critically listen to loan TT setup vs my own DDDAC & BBB combo. I thought both sound fantastic. I found the vinyl with certain pressing sounded pretty dam engaging and extremely musical. Nevertheless, some well mastered recording also sound fantastic via my CA setup, a bit less engaging but was not far off. If it wasn't for the price tag for a decent TT setup, I would be TT all the way...! :)
http://youtu.be/k994pnio0C8

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #353 on: February 10, 2015, 08:47:31 AM »
...it appears to me that the general „problem“ ultimately is  n  o  t  about “what is better?”, this source or that, but to get the „information“ which is very “individually” and “specifically” stored within the specific media to get most accurately reproduced out of any source, and no matter what source, may it be vinyl, CD, SACD, tape, cassette or whatever…. all these different kinds of storage have a character of their “own”, and as they are not “identical” their individual results can not be compared… but that’s exactly what we heavily tend to do…

when I take different buildings I cannot say: this is better than that, I cannot say the Eiffel Tower is “better” than Cologne Cathedral, that is highestly subjective… but I can say: this building for example is some 15 meters higher than that or something like that…

…and the same is valid for the different measurement results of these different sources/storages… these are comparable, because in the scientific sense they generate a “common” thing, waves and intensity and velocity and stability and impact and… and that’s why the technicians/physians/electro-acousticians measure and public the results not only to be able to see the results but to compare them and experience how they differ…

well, we ultimately all trust our ears, of course, no doubt, but physical measurements are a reliable indicator of what’s going on and where …

I can't help myself but one of the most impressive “results” of measurments (yes, I know, it does not say anything about the sound quality – but take a car, if you hear this one has 200 horse powers, then you have at least an imagination/impression, not knowing of course how the car feels when you drive…) to me was a publication of that what for me is the quintessence of all in HiFi, it is the squares and their behaviour…

yes, I know there are much more educated DIYers and electronic-engineers out there than me who fight against it, but I have no other explanation for the obviously measurable and listenable results, and therefore I’m glad that at least some official magazines report about exactly that phenomenon… (if memory serves me well than I have shown this already elsewhere… nevertheless, I cannot emphasize this enough from my point of view), the squares are precisely measurable and they show the typicity of the storage of the media h  o  w   it is being reproduced, so please, have a look here:



and here the squares of Doede's DDDAC1794:



so, with 1.000 cycles everything in the world, no matter what amplifification, tube, SS or whatever, is totally fine, no problem for them all...

but to bring that HiFi to the point that we are looking for, we have to go down in the cellar to the extremes, down to 20 cycles and up in the sky to 40.000- 50.000 cycles and even more... and here it is where superiority in music reproduction shows with preciseness and stableness and velocity and naturality (lesser and lesser boring)...





Quote from Doede's site: “Squarewave 20Hz
A very special case. The top of the square wave is a straight line. When it would be 100% flat it would be DC, or 0Hz. Of course that is impossible, but if it comes close, it shows the output can go very low. As described before the low frequency cut off is indeed very low, so therefore you see the top almost flat and hence an almost perfect square at 20Hz...”

For more have a look here:

http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_test_specs.html

perhaps Stefan has expressed himself a little awkwardly, but I understand what he means and what he wanted to say… I am deeply convinced that he thought in this sense when he “judged” about the different reproduction “styles”…

…and I had the same impression when about a year ago we had a listen to André Klein’s WE-system, which is a joint venture development with Jean Hiraga, where the latter at the moment has integrated his latest developments of power amps Kaneda-style…  you might want to have a look here:

http://twogoodears.blogspot.de/2013/10/a-very-musical-weekend-hopkinsons-smith.html

Well, it is clear, that from point of measurement CD and DAC are obviously far superior to vinyl, and that the measured pick-up does not belong to the worst, but the different pick-ups are so different in sound and behavior as they have ever been, that way, that there seems no common sense, i.e. ultimately “equal” result reachable… already at the end of the 1950ies the flood and diversity of pick-ups was immense and confusing and overwhelming… have a look here…



…and it seems that nothing has changed ever since… just the contrary… if I read for example Stefano’s comments on his site, then vinyl with the “right” pick-up is the most…. o.k… but with what pick-up does one get “the most” ? I don’t know

…even the other day when we had our last meeting at André with his armada of own TT and pick-ups and Thomas Schick with his TT and tonearm and his additional army of different pick-ups the reproduction of vinyl remained “very poor” - to quote someone (no I do not name, but you really would be very surprised who it was) - although some claimed it might have had to do with the connection - in comparison to the DDDAC1794 with the “right” controlled power supply…

...you might want to have a look for yourself at the Western Electric system of André and some of his other stuff like amps and different TT and pickups up to 78 rpm machines and and and…

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq2jw72RUaI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq2jw72RUaI</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ISl2OrgdU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ISl2OrgdU</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y7XLybWyH0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y7XLybWyH0</a>

or the one from Tim Gurney which I will listen to coming summer

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ9ivsBGOXc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ9ivsBGOXc</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbiUzD9dVtY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbiUzD9dVtY</a>

during the 1970ies and 80ies for more than 15 years I myaelf was a very proud user of EMT 927 and 930 St versions with TD15 pick-ups, ultimately even modified with van den Hul finishing… and I was content, I even had the feel that this was “the” combination to get the most out of vinyl…

yes, till digital entered… no, not the initial entering, I mean that what we have now… to me it appears like in television with Pal, HD and UltraHD… vinyl, CD and DDDAC… interestingly in video nobody complains about the progresses with higher resolution, and nobody is tweaking anything in that area, and I hear nobody scream: analogue is better than digital, if you only tweak the right way…

well, to get my personal doubts regarding TT and digital finally eliminated it came out now that our journey to Japan will happen in May this year, with Jean Hiraga as our guide, with André Klein and the owner of Lencoheaven, Jean Veys



who regularly celebrates superb HiFi-sessions at his barn near Brussels…

for pixes from last year you might want to go here:

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=14878.0

all highest end, all WE and EMT and pickups and and and..







we will visit and listen to a dozen and more absolutely highest end of the last century, Siemens, Klangfilm, Western Electric of all kind, Goto, Ale and from what André told me yesterday perhaps even an original Euronor !

Slowly but steadily I’m getting more and more nervous about how this will all turn out…
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 10:01:08 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #354 on: February 10, 2015, 06:16:47 PM »
Reinhard, i dont think i have come across a more passionate audio lover.   Your adventures make for great reading !!
It's all about the music,, not the equipment.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #355 on: February 10, 2015, 07:26:22 PM »
Reinhard, i dont think i have come across a more passionate audio lover.   Your adventures make for great reading !!
I second that, great reading and what I like..... passion.

Offline rhlauranna

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #356 on: February 10, 2015, 09:45:08 PM »
you might enjoy this vid here from the 2014 lencoheaven session....

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpk7NjkQMH0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpk7NjkQMH0</a>

... Jean and André will be part of the next meeting there in June...

this could be a nice place to test out digital, couldn't it ??? who knows...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 10:06:37 PM by rhlauranna »

Offline gamve

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #357 on: February 10, 2015, 10:42:38 PM »
Big names, big gear, big deal. Is this stuff really relevant to our real world situations? I think not. It's nice to think full horn WE systems and whatever but reality is a different place for most of us. I'm pretty sure that most guys on this forum are not millionaires and we are definitely not checked pants european wankers. You wanna keep sprouting this dream, fine go ahead. I'm sick of seeing this drivel and hearing this bullsh!t so Bye Bye from this thread.

Offline PingPing

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #358 on: February 11, 2015, 10:25:55 AM »
Reinhard, I love the posts, please keep them coming... very enjoyable :)

Offline Chanh

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Re: DDDAC 1794-NOS 24-192
« Reply #359 on: February 11, 2015, 10:54:05 AM »
Big names, big gear, big deal. Is this stuff really relevant to our real world situations? I think not. It's nice to think full horn WE systems and whatever but reality is a different place for most of us. I'm pretty sure that most guys on this forum are not millionaires and we are definitely not checked pants european wankers. You wanna keep sprouting this dream, fine go ahead. I'm sick of seeing this drivel and hearing this bullsh!t so Bye Bye from this thread.
hmmm..! Puzzling to why you are so personally offended? Nothing R was saying are offensive. If any he is just a passionate and blindly in love with DDDAC technology! There is no need getting frustrated...!  ;)