Author Topic: R2R music  (Read 7431 times)

Offline ozmillsy

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R2R music
« on: October 29, 2012, 08:12:32 PM »
Ok guys,  what are the reel tapes we should be looking for, and what should we be avoiding?

Are there different sizes, and only certain types we can play on these studio type R2R players?

Can we play 3 3/4" tapes?   

Might be nube questions, but need to know if there are any tape types I should be avoiding.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 08:16:13 PM by ozmillsy »
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline gamve

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 04:50:08 PM »
The master tapes are usually 15 inch per second speed and IEC equalization. Most machines are either 3 3/4 - 7.5 IPS or 7.5 - 15 IPS some are switchable via an internal link.
The machines we should look for must do 15 IPS and have IEC equalization. This rules out many older machines as they have NAB equalization.
When I Get a bit of time I will post a series of links for some reading to get those interested up to speed.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 08:20:08 PM »
Ok,   I notice most old "studio" releases are 7.5" .

I've seen some music on 3-3/4" on the bay.   Are they a waste of time?
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline gamve

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 01:16:01 PM »
Yeah Oz I would avoid the low speed tapes as the are usually 4 track, NAB equalisation and pretty poor sound quality.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 01:34:52 PM »
Where can I read more about the various types of equalization?

I assume IEC is what we need to look out for, or is there other desirable types that are ok?
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline springcreek

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 08:02:44 AM »

tuyen

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 07:20:58 PM »
Giorgio Foschi - the italian reel-to-reel maverick

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/

Might be worth keeping eye out for title releases and prices from Giorgio who seems to be a tape enthusiast.

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 08:36:37 PM »
Giorgio Foschi - the italian reel-to-reel maverick

http://twogoodears.blogspot.com.au/

Might be worth keeping eye out for title releases and prices from Giorgio who seems to be a tape enthusiast.
NAB EQ, could be an issue?   
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 11:39:47 PM »
New music for our pleasure on tape.



http://ultraanaloguerecordings.com/home

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2013, 12:58:05 PM »
If anyone finds some interesting reel to reel masters, including via Ebay, place a link here.

Offline stevenvalve

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2013, 01:38:27 PM »
If anyone finds some interesting reel to reel masters, including via Ebay, place a link here.
Here is one i would like, can someone buy this,  i will have a copy.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PINK-FLOYD-MEDDLE-JAPAN-REEL-TO-REEL-TAPE-TOSHIBA-OXA-5084-4TRACK-7-2-1IPS-RARE-/110998281423?pt=Music_Other_Formats&hash=item19d8035ccf

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2013, 02:26:41 PM »
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline zenelectro

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 07:36:55 PM »
http://ultraanaloguerecordings.com/home
The mic preamp those guys use is interesting.   Is it 300b ?

Hi Oz.

Silver wound transformers -> WE 437A (western electric) -> 300B.
It's quite a good way to go for a mic pre as the 437A is a very low noise tube. I know a Sydney based recording 
engineer that uses a similar pre (2A3 OP tube) and loves it for simple rich sounding applications (vocals etc).

It's an area of audio that I love and used to design / build gear for a very talented minimalist recording engineer. 

The most important thing (besides the musicians) is the room / mics and technique. Then pre, recording medium etc 
It's very pecialized and requires deep knowledge of mic types, positioning etc. Every mic 'hears' differently and that's
not just freq response but depth of field and off axis response. Throw in the venue acoustics / ambient qualities (reverberation)
and it's a tricky mix.

One particularly interesting job was at Sydney Recital Hall (refer pic). He was using a stereo coincident ribbon (from memory)
that had to be hung from the ceiling. There was a very long mic cable (existing venue setup) that the mics struggled to drive.
I built a small battery powered head amp that hung just above mic and this drove the cable to a custom mic pre.
Some of those recordings sounded really nice.

With mic pre's it's just like DAC's - you choose the pre to compliment the music / mics etc

Z

Offline zenelectro

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2013, 08:06:14 PM »
New music for our pleasure on tape.



http://ultraanaloguerecordings.com/home

The challenge for these small independent labels is to actually get the talent.

If you listen to someone like yoyoma or Rostropovich play those Bach 6 cello suites it's like 'wow'.
But we have to suffer the existing recordings of the greats - they are pretty varied.
   
I honestly think the future of super quality recording (on the recording side not playback) is
multi channel DSD. I have been talking to a few engineers lately and it appears there is a slow
'awakening'.

Couple this with the fact that the (traditional) music industry is basically dead - artists / labels /engineers
are looking for different options, business models.

Z

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 02:45:26 PM »
I honestly think the future of super quality recording (on the recording side not playback) is
multi channel DSD. I have been talking to a few engineers lately and it appears there is a slow
'awakening'.

What tools are available to mix and edit the multi channel DSD tracks?
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline zenelectro

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2013, 05:31:34 PM »
I honestly think the future of super quality recording (on the recording side not playback) is
multi channel DSD. I have been talking to a few engineers lately and it appears there is a slow
'awakening'.

What tools are available to mix and edit the multi channel DSD tracks?

As far as I know None yet. Korg had a multi channel DSD recorder / editor prototyped but it looks like they've canned it.

The existing systems convert DSD to 384k / 352.8k PCM, edit that, reconvert back to DSD (or whatever) for distribution.
Yes, the concept sounds dumb initially however I believe Saracon is far better at producing a PCM representation
converted from DSD than the DS modulator of an ADC. The specs also support this, it does something like -158dBTHD+N.

Yep, I know specs mean nothing - however DSD consistently wins listening tests against PCM for mastering archive.

What no won has done is make a decent DSD recorder with tubes, transformers and really good clocks.

Z

Offline gamve

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2013, 06:37:08 PM »
I honestly think the future of super quality recording (on the recording side not playback) is
multi channel DSD. I have been talking to a few engineers lately and it appears there is a slow
'awakening'.

What tools are available to mix and edit the multi channel DSD tracks?

As far as I know None yet. Korg had a multi channel DSD recorder / editor prototyped but it looks like they've canned it.

The existing systems convert DSD to 384k / 352.8k PCM, edit that, reconvert back to DSD (or whatever) for distribution.
Yes, the concept sounds dumb initially however I believe Saracon is far better at producing a PCM representation
converted from DSD than the DS modulator of an ADC. The specs also support this, it does something like -158dBTHD+N.

Yep, I know specs mean nothing - however DSD consistently wins listening tests against PCM for mastering archive.

What no won has done is make a decent DSD recorder with tubes, transformers and really good clocks.

Z


Hi Z,
WBF's Bruce reckons that Saracon is only any good for PCM files and he proffers to use the Korg Audigate software to down
sample from DSD to PCM. Tried it and bugger me, he is right.
Cheers
Graham
 

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2013, 06:41:33 PM »
The existing systems convert DSD to 384k / 352.8k PCM, edit that, reconvert back to DSD (or whatever) for distribution.
Yes, the concept sounds dumb initially however I believe Saracon is far better at producing a PCM representation
converted from DSD than the DS modulator of an ADC. The specs also support this, it does something like -158dBTHD+N.

Yep, I know specs mean nothing - however DSD consistently wins listening tests against PCM for mastering archive.
Well,  if the purpose is to archive without changing anything,  then I can understand using DSD.

But I was under the impression there are some pretty serious DXD (32/3xx pcm) recorders coming out.   The thd specs of 32bit pcm cant be that far behind.    Still makes more sense to me to record and mix in the same format.  

But a DSD recorder with tubes could have a real place for live stereo recordings,  where mixing isnt required.    I reckon this is where it's at, for ultimate SQ.  I've been listening to some old Sheffield direct to disc lp's lately, and bugger me do they sound good.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 06:43:45 PM by ozmillsy »
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline ozmillsy

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2013, 06:43:12 PM »
Hi Z,
WBF's Bruce reckons that Saracon is only any good for PCM files and he proffers to use the Korg Audigate software to down
sample from DSD to PCM. Tried it and bugger me, he is right.
Cheers
Graham
You're both crazy IMHO.   :P   

POWr3 dithering is a major differentiator,  if going to 16/44, IMHO.
Q:   If I like the treble turned down,  and you like the treble turned up.....  what does that say about our hearing?   ;-D

Offline zenelectro

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Re: R2R music
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2013, 07:24:40 PM »
I honestly think the future of super quality recording (on the recording side not playback) is
multi channel DSD. I have been talking to a few engineers lately and it appears there is a slow
'awakening'.

What tools are available to mix and edit the multi channel DSD tracks?

As far as I know None yet. Korg had a multi channel DSD recorder / editor prototyped but it looks like they've canned it.

The existing systems convert DSD to 384k / 352.8k PCM, edit that, reconvert back to DSD (or whatever) for distribution.
Yes, the concept sounds dumb initially however I believe Saracon is far better at producing a PCM representation
converted from DSD than the DS modulator of an ADC. The specs also support this, it does something like -158dBTHD+N.

Yep, I know specs mean nothing - however DSD consistently wins listening tests against PCM for mastering archive.

What no won has done is make a decent DSD recorder with tubes, transformers and really good clocks.

Z


Hi Z,
WBF's Bruce reckons that Saracon is only any good for PCM files and he proffers to use the Korg Audigate software to down
sample from DSD to PCM. Tried it and bugger me, he is right.
Cheers
Graham
 

I would've said he's kidding himself but if you are referring to Puget Sound Bruce he certainly has enough quality gear to form an informed opinion.

One thing is for sure the Korg MR itself is nice but certainly not near cutting edge. I wouldn't be using it to capture DSD.
In fact I have one coming in a few weeks for an upgrade to both ADC side and DAC side and have looked carefully at the
schematics - there are a lot of compromises.

Even upgraded it won't come close to what DSD is capable of. That would take a new box. 

One option that may well be worth trying is:

a) Use Saracon to go DSD -> 176.4
b) Use Faulkner averaging algorithm to go 176.4 -> 44.1

Z